Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 82 - Official Discussion Thread

[capsulecorp]

I think this is leaning into some fun analysis that I don't think is intentional in the actual arc. I like the idea that Granollah, Vegeta, and Goku are all survivors in different ways as all three of these characters have managed to survive the annihilation of their people, and continue to persist despite the odds being stacked against them . But I don't think this is the level of storytelling that Toyo and Co are invested in.

I think that’s exactly the kind of storytelling Toyotaro’s been interested in. For all/any faults of the Super manga, thematic coherency has never been one of them—even/especially when working off of Toriyama outlines. See the repeated variations on “hope” in the Trunks arc, and the careful framing around different approaches to “true strength” and the team element in the ToP—such that characters continuously offer (ultimately incorrect/partial) answers regarding the former before the arc settles on the latter, making sure everyone has played a distinct role.

I’m looking for thematic throughlines in this arc because I fully expect them to intentionally be there.

Agreed, I'd also add that even the original series is loaded with careful, deliberate themes that, in my experience, most readers (and even Youtuber type analysis creators) completely miss. I do believe they are highly intentional in both cases, but the interesting thing about themes is that they can emerge and be meaningful and effective even without intent, sometimes due to the subconscious, sometimes due to dumb luck!

[emperior]

If the thematic focus ends up being the “survivor” aspect there’s no way it wasn’t intentional.

For sure one theme up until now has been the focus on the past. Even Gas’ gag from last chapter was based on it.

[Lukmendes]

Agreed, I'd also add that even the original series is loaded with careful, deliberate themes that, in my experience, most readers (and even Youtuber type analysis creators) completely miss. I do believe they are highly intentional in both cases, but the interesting thing about themes is that they can emerge and be meaningful and effective even without intent, sometimes due to the subconscious, sometimes due to dumb luck!

Knowing Toriyama, it's probably without intention and dumb luck lol.

Toriyama's writing style feels like he just does his own thing even when someone is telling the plot points to follow, and I think he did mention in interviews that DB has no themes, though it'd probably more accurate to say DB has no intentional themes, 'cause there's at the very least, patterns, from the obvious ones to the subtle ones, and since Toriyama may not spell out shit too clearly, it can be hard to tell if some pattern is there intentionally, or it's there out of habit.

[capsulecorp]

Agreed, I'd also add that even the original series is loaded with careful, deliberate themes that, in my experience, most readers (and even Youtuber type analysis creators) completely miss. I do believe they are highly intentional in both cases, but the interesting thing about themes is that they can emerge and be meaningful and effective even without intent, sometimes due to the subconscious, sometimes due to dumb luck!

Knowing Toriyama, it's probably without intention and dumb luck lol.

Toriyama's writing style feels like he just does his own thing even when someone is telling the plot points to follow, and I think he did mention in interviews that DB has no themes, though it'd probably more accurate to say DB has no intentional themes, 'cause there's at the very least, patterns, from the obvious ones to the subtle ones, and since Toriyama may not spell out shit too clearly, it can be hard to tell if some pattern is there intentionally, or it's there out of habit.

imo it's best to take the things Toriyama says with a grain of salt, and instead focus on his actions.

[LightBing]

The theme of this arc was clearly hard work vs shortcuts.

I don't know where we go from here if Goku's getting a power up by a memory. The character might not have bypassed years of training like the others but mechanically it's equal in my opinion.

All assuming it will be that shallow, which we don't know. I hope to be surprised.

[Cipher]

Knowing Toriyama, it's probably without intention and dumb luck lol.

Toriyama's writing style feels like he just does his own thing even when someone is telling the plot points to follow, and I think he did mention in interviews that DB has no themes, though it'd probably more accurate to say DB has no intentional themes, 'cause there's at the very least, patterns, from the obvious ones to the subtle ones, and since Toriyama may not spell out shit too clearly, it can be hard to tell if some pattern is there intentionally, or it's there out of habit.

I intentionally left Toriyama out of my comment because I don't think that's much an element of the original series. Plotlines and character arcs cohere despite the weekly plotting, and there are thematic threads that wind up coming together, but it isn't the same kind of start-to-finish thematic focus Toyotaro seems to imbue Super arcs with, with their being outlined in advance.

This isn't to say I like Super better--I don't. It's just a way in which it works differently from the original series. I suppose it's a potential strength.

Re: Focus: There's definitely the element of "hard work vs. shortcuts" there, but that's also an evergreen DB theme. I don't think it's an accident that literally every central character in the arc (Vegeta, Goku, Granolah, Gas) is hung up on some element of their past (or newly pointed toward it, in Goku's case).

And then in addition there's the "survival" element, including contrasts like Granolah and Vegeta being willing to throw their lives away in atonement. The main throughline will probably lie somewhere in one of those two, or in the combination thereof.

[Mr Baggins]

Knowing Toriyama, it's probably without intention and dumb luck lol.

I'd argue that every arc of the original manga's "Z" half - incidentally around the time Dragon Ball became a more tonally serious work - has its own distinct (and maybe even intended) themes, given the occurrence and re-occurrence of specific key words and ideas. Don't even get me started on Toriyama's modern post-DB material. But that's neither here nor there.

As for this arc in particular, were I to hazard a guess, I'd say the central theme is actually one a lot of us assumed from the start that others have seemingly abandoned: Accepting the past. Vegeta couldn't do it despite the lecture from Beerus, Granolah presumably still has hang-ups, Gas's near-entire character is built around his refusal to do it (even the pissing gag from this chapter is relevant to that), and Goku - who is currently experiencing an "inner conflict" related to his confusion about his past - is now in a prime position to succeed where the others failed. His own potential acceptance of his former identity is clearly the key to this new mastery of UI, for better or worse.

While there are other recurring ideas about "survival" and "instinct", right now I'm inclined to say those are sub-themes rather than the main centerpiece. Clearly, putting the premise of the Granolah arc and its main guest character's drives/trauma into perspective shows that "coming to terms with one's past" lies at the heart of the actual story. I have my own gripes with how that's been presented, but I'll save that rant for later.

For all my issues with this arc, I don't doubt that both Toyotaro and Toriyama routinely put a lot of thought into the narrative theming for Super.

[Miracles]

Isn't it funny. In order to grow, Vegeta had to get rid of the guilt he had for the Saiyans destructive History.

Kakarott has to gain something from his Saiyan heritage [particularly Bardock] to develop.

[OrangeBanana]

Having re-read the arc, I think people are forgetting that the fish had insomnia and that was a bad omen. One running theme in this arc is that power comes at a cost, for Granola is was his life, for Vegeta its taking damage and for Gas its something??? So if Goku gets a new form I think it might go with this theme and also have a severe downside which could somehow be a cause for concern?

[LightBing]

Well, Goku was a little bastard as a Saiyan, the head trauma changed his personality completely.
Maybe Goku has his old personality return and mix with his current self?

That would certainly make this possible outcome more interesting.

[Magnificent Ponta]

As for this arc in particular, were I to hazard a guess, I'd say the central theme is actually one a lot of us assumed from the start that others have seemingly abandoned: Accepting the past [...]
Clearly, putting the premise of the Granolah arc and its main guest character's drives/trauma into perspective shows that "coming to terms with one's past" lies at the heart of the actual story.

It's certainly a point well made that generally discussion around the thematic content of The Past isn't as in the foreground as perhaps it ought to be, but I'd suggest that's less a case of abandonment and more a case of simply taking it for granted, as it's almost underselling it to call it even the central theme: it's basically the whole story - premise, structure, plotting, (in many cases) characters - everything. So I guess it isn't surprising that various members here have identified and focused on discussing other thematic content in the arc, to the exclusion of this element.

I think if I were to take the sort of thing you're talking about and try to formulate it in a way that I think truly encompasses this arc as a whole, I'd cast my net still wider and say the central theme is The Past Is Present. That is to say, irrespective of whether the characters in the arc succeed or fail in coming to terms with it (or even try not to engage with it at all), The Past inevitably structures the unfolding of the Present (hence, e.g., all the talk about Fate in the arc), and the characters who occupy the particular Past the arc shows us are also still acting in the Present (in more ways than one).

And this also feeds naturally in to the nature of other themes being discussed by other members, like Survival. For instance, take Bardock - he didn't survive in the most literal sense - he's dead like the other Saiyans. But his actions in The Past are his Survival - his protection of Granolah, Monaito, and Goku, his defeat of Gas, and the way he Survives vicariously in their (imperfect) memories of him - and these actions also make the characters in the present the way they are, and hence act the way they do (e.g., he made Granolah a Survivor, but is also partly responsible for his enduring grudge; he defeated Gas, and so is responsible for his fixation on never losing again). And the way the arc is structured, with its progressive revelation of the events of The Past, means that actions from The Past keep getting thrown up to affect the Present, as though Bardock is actually present. But it's also true for him, even as a character of The Past - his own (more recent) Past is Present for him, in the shape of Goku and Gine, influencing his focus on saving some small remnant, first from the Cerealians, then from the Saiyans. Just as an example of the sort of thing I mean.

I need hardly say that this isn't in any way attempting to contradict what you're saying, merely to suggest something that both lines up with that and also with some of the other things the arc seems to be giving us.

[Bardock God of Time]

Having re-read the arc, I think people are forgetting that the fish had insomnia and that was a bad omen. One running theme in this arc is that power comes at a cost, for Granola is was his life, for Vegeta its taking damage and for Gas its something??? So if Goku gets a new form I think it might go with this theme and also have a severe downside which could somehow be a cause for concern?

Goku loses his humanity maybe

[batistabus]

The Past Is Present

Not a bad idea. If there's a lesson in there, look to Beerus' "destroy the past" or Monaito's (also the Namekians in the GPP arc) "be content in the present despite the past".

[Mr Baggins]

it's basically the whole story - premise, structure, plotting, (in many cases) characters - everything.

I would say that's true of your "past is present" suggestion, which you admit is casting a wider net, but I'm moreso referring to a fundamental question (and series of answers provided by various characters, many of which are incorrect) that the story asks; that which comprises the main lesson and takeaway of the arc. In that sense, I don't think any of the alternatives suggested in these threads fits what's happening quite like "how does one become unshackled from the past?" does, since every character that's actually fighting is wrestling specifically with that conundrum. Even Goku isn't entirely at peace with his own past, largely because of ignorance in his case.

Maybe the answer lies in fully understanding the past, looking at Goku and Granolah's respective changes after learning more about Bardock's story, among some other patterns I've noticed that I'll get to later. Time can only tell for that one. The jury's still out.

That's not to say that what you're suggesting isn't useful, though. I think you've effectively described how some of the arc's smaller motifs reinforce, or at least bridge over to, its main theme (directly or indirectly).

[PurestEvil]

Well, Goku was a little bastard as a Saiyan, the head trauma changed his personality completely.
Maybe Goku has his old personality return and mix with his current self?

That would certainly make this possible outcome more interesting.

I’m not sure that’s how psychology works. Goku has already embedded himself with his own kind personality due to his brain damage and from his own 30 years of life experience. I don’t believe it’s plausible for him to completely regress his personality because he remembered his dad saying “stay alive”, but perhaps a second opinion should be heard in this topic.

[Xeogran]

It feels kinda weird to see Bardock's "survive" play a vital part, considering we know how death in DB is just another place to train and be comfy at
Goku also already died twice anyway, which only strenghtened him up.

Of course Bardock was misinformed and didn't know about the 3 sets of Dragon Balls in existence. But for us readers it's still.. a tad too late, I'd say.

[LightBing]

Well, Goku was a little bastard as a Saiyan, the head trauma changed his personality completely.
Maybe Goku has his old personality return and mix with his current self?

That would certainly make this possible outcome more interesting.

I’m not sure that’s how psychology works. Goku has already embedded himself with his own kind personality due to his brain damage and from his own 30 years of life experience. I don’t believe it’s plausible for him to completely regress his personality because he remembered his dad saying “stay alive”, but perhaps a second opinion should be heard in this topic.

I agree that a return to his old personality is a stretch and would be crap. I'm saying a slight "mix" or a conflict, whatever.
If this is even touched at all.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Better than I expected tbh. Specially compared to last month’s.

[Cipher]

After a trip back through the (excellently paced) Future Trunks arc the other day, I think there might be some merit, unfortunately, to the claim that the TV-concurrent forty-page chapters of Super are treated like three chapters of original DB, and the later ones like a stretched-out single one.

There is so much happening in each of the 13 chapters of the Trunks arc, without it ever feeling rushed. It’s kind of a shame it was trailing the anime version the whole time, because I think each month really would have had people buzzing if it had been the first way they experienced the story.

That arc is also just paced/structured really well on a macro level.

[SupremeKai25]

After a trip back through the (excellently paced) Future Trunks arc the other day, I think there might be some merit, unfortunately, to the claim that the TV-concurrent forty-page chapters of Super are treated like three chapters of original DB, and the later ones like a stretched-out single one.

There is so much happening in each of the 13 chapters of the Trunks arc, without it ever feeling rushed. It’s kind of a shame it was trailing the anime version the whole time, because I think each month really would have had people buzzing if it had been the first way they experienced the story.

That arc is also just paced/structured really well on a macro level.

If the manga came before the anime, that arc would have been longer obviously. Toyotaro revealed immediately who Goku Black is (literally they found out before they even met Black himself) because everyone had already seen the anime, so there was no point in developing a mystery. Meanwhile a good 10 episodes of the anime are dedicated to solving the mystery of Goku Black.

So if the manga came before the anime, Toyotaro would have to, you know, develop a mystery around Goku Black and Zamasu, which would make the arc way longer.