Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

[capsulecorp]

We can go and explain ourselves into a tizzy, but it doesn't dismiss the fact that the entirety of this arc is a mess. I the fact that we're arguing about whether or not Bardock's wish was granted really speaks to how mess this whole thing is in regards to the franchise's lore, and rather than give us something to chew on or make us see these characters in a new light, it really just makes things more confusing.

Discomfort and confusion when presented with ambiguity is one of the biggest problems and weakness of "fan culture".

[Skar]

The anime is the primary canon under Toriyama. Meaning it holds far more weight than the Super Manga. Which is also incredibly inconsistent

We don't know for certain what Toriyama wrote for UI in his outline. The manga and anime varied in how Goku achieved the form so Toriyama might not have even specified that and only designed the white haired form. The films afterwards didn't have Goku use UI so that only leaves what he supervised in the manga as the only version with UI appearing again.

[Shorty GZ2]

I think you are all fake fans for choosing the manga over the anime.

Spoiler:

true Dragon Ball fans can't read after all

Discomfort and confusion when presented with ambiguity is one of the biggest problems and weakness of "fan culture".

So true oomfies

The anime is the primary canon under Toriyama. Meaning it holds far more weight than the Super Manga. Which is also incredibly inconsistent

We don't know for certain what Toriyama wrote for UI in his outline. The manga and anime varied in how Goku achieved the form so Toriyama might not have even specified that and only designed the white haired form. The films afterwards didn't have Goku use UI so that only leaves what he supervised in the manga as the only version with UI appearing again.

On the occasion that the anime does decide to dwell further into UI as it was done so in the Moro/Granolah arcs, I'm curious to see how they'll reconcile the differences in aspects. While both boil the state/form down to just "fight good" (& Goku ends up "uncompleting" the completed form post-ToP), instead of the focus on emotional control in face of jarring shocks like in the manga, the anime's version is more of a straightforward "limit-breaking"/"survival-mode" type form that Goku unlocked and then involuntarily enters via near-death experience(s). Plus, the anime features Goku's back exploding from too much silver UI/limit-breaking god power usage (which the manga doesn't, he just gets KO'd out of the state like w/ any other).

[kemuri07]

We can go and explain ourselves into a tizzy, but it doesn't dismiss the fact that the entirety of this arc is a mess. I the fact that we're arguing about whether or not Bardock's wish was granted really speaks to how mess this whole thing is in regards to the franchise's lore, and rather than give us something to chew on or make us see these characters in a new light, it really just makes things more confusing.

Discomfort and confusion when presented with ambiguity is one of the biggest problems and weakness of "fan culture".

But what? Ambiguity only works if it helps the narrative in any way. Ambiguity can be a useful tool that allows for more nuance storytelling that asks the audience to contribute the work itself. That is not what is happening here. Please do not try this "it's too smart for me." This is not smart at all.

[kemuri07]

It's generally because the anime is way more high profile (the manga may have a decent amount of fans & ppl requesting for its material to be adapted, but the anime broke servers & gathered town squares' worth of ppl to watch it), had a far more frequent release schedule of weekly compared to the manga's monthly, and used as the primary source of adaptation for stuff like merch & video games like Dokkan/Legends/Xenoverse

We can go and explain ourselves into a tizzy, but it doesn't dismiss the fact that the entirety of this arc is a mess. I the fact that we're arguing about whether or not Bardock's wish was granted really speaks to how mess this whole thing is in regards to the franchise's lore, and rather than give us something to chew on or make us see these characters in a new light, it really just makes things more confusing.

I mean, you're the one here for some reason speculating that Bardock is still alive from this most recent chapter lmao
And while an amount of ambiguity may have been intended by Tori/Toyo in regards to the wish, I'd also say that it at least doesn't take so much reading comprehension (unless one went into the chapter with a certain idea/frame of mind) to figure that Bardock didn't make/wasn't the one making the wish or that Monaito never explicitly granted Bardock's wistful "wish". Plus complaining that there wasn't really a clear "do this to win" answer to beat Gas, which is probably the point that'll be dwelled on/fleshed out further in the next or later chapter(s).

I really hope Toyotaro understands; as Gas travels closer to the Cearlian's planet, he should be able to Instantaneous Movement to Goku and Vegeta, to speed up the pace here.

He could, though it was established to a point that Gas isn't as well versed with IT as Goku, so I could see him just flying the whole way and landing down on Cereal with a crash.

Cool beans. The anime is so high profiled that it got itself cancelled in 2018, where as the Manga is STILL ONGOING. I have no idea how that doesn't signify that the anime is no longer the focus of the franchise and instead its the manga with new characters and plot being introduced RIGHT NOW. There's no dispute here, and "cause one time the anime sold out an entire arena" is not an argument for how the anime somehow can still be the definitive text. That makes no sense.

[capsulecorp]

We can go and explain ourselves into a tizzy, but it doesn't dismiss the fact that the entirety of this arc is a mess. I the fact that we're arguing about whether or not Bardock's wish was granted really speaks to how mess this whole thing is in regards to the franchise's lore, and rather than give us something to chew on or make us see these characters in a new light, it really just makes things more confusing.

Discomfort and confusion when presented with ambiguity is one of the biggest problems and weakness of "fan culture".

But what? Ambiguity only works if it helps the narrative in any way. Ambiguity can be a useful tool that allows for more nuance storytelling that asks the audience to contribute the work itself. That is not what is happening here. Please do not try this "it's too smart for me." This is not smart at all.

Nah I don't think its about "smarts", its just that... there's this idea that everything needs to be definitively stated or picked apart and analyzed and debated, and it leaves no room for ambiguity. In my opinion it's totally ok if we never hear about Bardock's wish again, its just a nice bittersweet moment that shows he was thinking of Goku and Raditz. We don't need to know the mechanics of how the dragon implemented it, if the dragon even did anything at all, it doesn't matter.

That said, sure, we might learn more in the next chapter, but it's not "bad writing" if we don't, it doesn't make the story a mess, it just means the author has a lighter touch and is comfortable letting us use our imaginations a bit.

[Skar]

On the occasion that the anime does decide to dwell further into UI as it was done so in the Moro/Granolah arcs, I'm curious to see how they'll reconcile the differences in aspects. While both boil the state/form down to just "fight good" (& Goku ends up "uncompleting" the completed form post-ToP), instead of the focus on emotional control in face of jarring shocks like in the manga, the anime's version is more of a straightforward "limit-breaking"/"survival-mode" type form that Goku unlocked and then involuntarily enters via near-death experience(s). Plus, the anime features Goku's back exploding from too much silver UI/limit-breaking god power usage (which the manga doesn't, he just gets KO'd out of the state like w/ any other).

Yeah I'm also curious how they would reconcile the differences. I recall that Toriyama was busy working on Broly during the ToP which is why the outline was "barebones". If he's been supervising the manga every month, he might've clarified how he envisioned UI and that's what Toyotaro is using now. What Toriyama decided on will likely be what they both use moving forward.

[TKA]

Discomfort and confusion when presented with ambiguity is one of the biggest problems and weakness of "fan culture".

I generally agree with this statement.

As Hbomberguy put it in his Dark Souls 2 video:

In a way, the story of Dark Souls 2 is the ultimate in nerd horror: it tells a story of a universe that's impossible to build a comprehensive fucking wiki about. And to nerds, that's the scariest thing there is.

However, in this context, I think it doesn't really apply. When you make sweeping changes like this, it has to be in service of adding something that outweighs what you're changing.

This adds nothing worthwhile. Saying Bardock loves his sons adds nothing new to the story because we already knew that; it takes away from the story because it diminishes Goku's hard work. This is all just poorly thought out. It's bad in concept and execution.

[capsulecorp]

However, in this context, I think it doesn't really apply. When you make sweeping changes like this, it has to be in service of adding something that outweighs what you're changing.

This adds nothing worthwhile. Saying Bardock loves his sons adds nothing new to the story because we already knew that; it takes away from the story because it diminishes Goku's hard work. This is all just poorly thought out. It's bad in concept and execution.

Wait, is it a sweeping change or is it adding nothing new? It can't be both, can it?

[TKA]

Wait, is it a sweeping change or is it adding nothing new? It can't be both, can it?

A sweeping change that adds nothing of value. It’s not mutually exclusive.

I can say Goku actually has had 3 penises this entire time. It’s a huge change, but does it add anything worthwhile?

[Shorty GZ2]

We can go and explain ourselves into a tizzy, but it doesn't dismiss the fact that the entirety of this arc is a mess. I the fact that we're arguing about whether or not Bardock's wish was granted really speaks to how mess this whole thing is in regards to the franchise's lore, and rather than give us something to chew on or make us see these characters in a new light, it really just makes things more confusing.

Discomfort and confusion when presented with ambiguity is one of the biggest problems and weakness of "fan culture".

But what? Ambiguity only works if it helps the narrative in any way. Ambiguity can be a useful tool that allows for more nuance storytelling that asks the audience to contribute the work itself. That is not what is happening here. Please do not try this "it's too smart for me." This is not smart at all.

This grousing about ambiguity and about the notion of it being "too smart for you/this is not smart at all", considering you did ignore your own wacky reading comprehension (which again, somehow derived "Bardock is still alive"), is just funny all things considered lol

Cool beans. The anime is so high profiled that it got itself cancelled in 2018, where as the Manga is STILL ONGOING. I have no idea how that doesn't signify that the anime is no longer the focus of the franchise and instead its the manga with new characters and plot being introduced RIGHT NOW. There's no dispute here, and "cause one time the anime sold out an entire arena" is not an argument for how the anime somehow can still be the definitive text. That makes no sense.

You keep using that "cancelled" word - I'm not sure you know what that means (since the anime just ended), or how you completely missed my point that no matter what, the anime is (yes, it is) & has always been the way higher profile & more dominantly represented (like in other DB media like XV, FZ, the gachas, Heroes) product of "Dragon Ball Super" over the manga. Even if the manga is currently active & selling vols (like around in the 150k-200k range) decently for a monthly, while the anime is dormant.

However, in this context, I think it doesn't really apply. When you make sweeping changes like this, it has to be in service of adding something that outweighs what you're changing.

This adds nothing worthwhile. Saying Bardock loves his sons adds nothing new to the story because we already knew that; it takes away from the story because it diminishes Goku's hard work. This is all just poorly thought out. It's bad in concept and execution.

While I'm not surprised this doesn't read of having read what I posted, I'll just reiterate- I don't think there have been any sweeping changes. And (also) so, I think the bottom part of this post/point you're trying to make doesn't have much of a point.

[TKA]

Regardless of the popularity of the anime, discussion of it isn’t germane to the manga.

It has no value here.

[Shorty GZ2]

You are right, but you missed this context:

I really don't get people who think the manga isn't canon but the anime, you know the show that got cancelled four years ago somehow is? Like its pretty apparent that Toei has dropped the anime in favor for the manga, both Broly and Superhero are vague enough that they don't say whether it supports the manga or the anime, and if any new anime of Super is released it will all but certainly be a direct adaptation of the manga.

Which was in response to the dude here yammering on about the anime being the primary canon under Toriyama instead of the manga as fuel for him taking issues with UI in the manga (by conflating with how it is & was handled in the anime). I was just explaining how that (mostly incorrect) notion can be arrived at (since the Super anime is the primary version that gets adapted/represented even after it ended/when the manga is still ongoing).

[Grimlock]

The only reason the anime is the "preference" for games, merchandising and whatnot is due to the fact that it reaches more people. The anime is the version the general people is most familiar with. And this doesn't happen just with Dragon Ball Super, it has always been this way, and from what I observe, it's the same with other franchises too. It's an usual approach to wait for an anime adaptation before starting to fully capitalize on them (that is not to say that there aren't exceptions, special occasions and such).

"Canon" is not part of this matter, in fact, is not part of anything, as there is no canon to begin with. They don't care about this and maybe they don't even know what this stupidity is. But it is something you all need to accept already and leave this nonsense behind (until or if they ever state something about it). Trying to make a point out of it is useless, very rarely can you succeed using "canon" as argument.

Regardless whether you think the anime is the priority over the manga or vice-versa, it really doesn't matter at the end of the day, it will only amount to as your opinion in the grand picture, it's not like one will change their view because of your own preference, so why bother anyway?

[TKA]

While I'm not surprised this doesn't read of having read what I posted, I'll just reiterate- I don't think there have been any sweeping changes. And (also) so, I think the bottom part of this post/point you're trying to make doesn't have much of a point.

I did not quote you, nor did I respond to you.

I am elucidating a point I made. This isn't rocket surgery.

Toyotaro introduced something that could recontextualize the entire series and cheapen the themes of the original series, all just to state that Bardock is a good father, actually. A fact we already knew from DB Minus and Broly. It adds nothing new to the series, but is a sweeping change for the things it affects.

In essence, it's a pointless change that only subtracts rather than adds. That's bad writing. When Toriyama makes changes, they're usually to introduce something new that is better than the thing he changed.

Again, not rocket surgery.

Which was in response to the dude here yammering on about the anime being the primary canon under Toriyama instead of the manga as fuel for him taking issues with UI in the manga (by conflating with how it is & was handled in the anime). I was just explaining how that (mostly incorrect) notion can be arrived at (since the Super anime is the primary version that gets adapted/represented even after it ended/when the manga is still ongoing).

And I reiterate: pointless discussion for this topic.

The anime is more popular than the manga. That fact isn't up for debate; it is. The anime is also inconsistently-written and rife with contradictions, half-baked explanations and flat out errors. I think it's safe to say that isn't up for debate either. The anime is its own thing and is useless for talking about concepts that exist within the manga. That isn't up for debate.

[Shorty GZ2]

And I reiterate: pointless discussion for this topic.

The anime is more popular than the manga. That fact isn't up for debate; it is. The anime is also inconsistently-written and rife with contradictions, half-baked explanations and flat out errors. I think it's safe to say that isn't up for debate either. The anime is its own thing and is useless for talking about concepts that exist within the manga. That isn't up for debate.

Yeah, yeah, by this point we've already moved from the relevant rabble guy in question, so let that be dropped

[Shorty GZ2]

While I'm not surprised this doesn't read of having read what I posted, I'll just reiterate- I don't think there have been any sweeping changes. And (also) so, I think the bottom part of this post/point you're trying to make doesn't have much of a point.

I did not quote you, nor did I respond to you.

I am elucidating a point I made. This isn't rocket surgery.

Toyotaro introduced something that could recontextualize the entire series and cheapen the themes of the original series, all just to state that Bardock is a good father, actually. A fact we already knew from DB Minus and Broly. It adds nothing new to the series, but is a sweeping change for the things it affects.

In essence, it's a pointless change that only subtracts rather than adds. That's bad writing. When Toriyama makes changes, they're usually to introduce something new that is better than the thing he changed.

Again, not rocket surgery.

And also again, I don't think the wish was made, or at least not for Bardock's kids; with the purpose of the "good dad Bardock moment" (at least in story) primarily being to epiphanise said Monaito into rethinking the wish & instead taking direct action to protect the future (via physically involving himself in helping the guy fighting the other guy ordered to kill them all). I don't think it's too hard of a read or far of a reach.

[TKA]

Yeah, yeah, by this point we've already moved from the relevant rabble guy in question, so let that be dropped

Also, your avatar is extremely funny and I dig it.

[Shorty GZ2]

Yeah, yeah, by this point we've already moved from the relevant rabble guy in question, so let that be dropped

Also, your avatar is extremely funny and I dig it.

Why, thank you lol

Here's a fuller-sized version of Super Baby/Bogdanoff 2 for you:

[EGonzo]

Yeah, yeah, by this point we've already moved from the relevant rabble guy in question, so let that be dropped

Also, your avatar is extremely funny and I dig it.

Why, thank you lol

Here's a fuller-sized version of Super Baby/Bogdanoff 2 for you:

Can I get a quick rundown on this guy?