Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Strong resolve is fine, but I think the main problem is the audience has been trained to expect a victory after a transformation (or major power up). Now this isn't always the case, but a transformation at least let's them fight evenly for a time.

Then you have a moment where Beerus takes ssj3 like it's nothing and it's so impactful where you know this guy means business.

Just off memory.

- goku vs nappa
- zarbon vs vegeta (and then zarbon flipping it back)
- piccolo vs frieza (and again, flipping it)
- ssj goku vs frieza
- ssj goku vs 19
- almost all cell and buu battles

And again from memory this trend largely continues into super.

Now in the span of a chapter you have a character that seems to be already dominating and then transforms not once, but twice. To a form we have also just seen dominant a couple chapters ago.

And the winner of the fight is bardock, who at least in my opinion, has been annoyingly turned from a common saiyan who tried to make a difference into a series golden child.

Combine it all together and I think that's the stem of the communities problem. There's portions of good writing with how gas resolve is weak and bardocks strong, but it's not overcoming the other issues for me.

Understood. Transformations normally gave one the victory throughout all of Dragonball. However, the canonical continuation of Dragonball; Super isn't really changing that transformations give one the victory. It is simply touching on aspects in OG Dragonball that were forgotten about and meant to be coupled with raw power. Look no further than the Tournament of Power, how Roshi made Goku revisit the spiritual ability side from his training in Dragonball. He gained a transformation/power up by accessing the mental.

Notice how most of the mental side of the training back then were from the gods of Dragonball [Kaio, Popo, etc] too. This trend continues with the very gods in Super as well [Beerus/Whis].

Agreed. I do not think the story will upset it's foundations about UI being calm. Bardock's fight against Gas showed pure focus on victory no matter what. Such mental/spiritual concentration reconciles with the skill of UI. From a battle aspect, this is what Goku can gain from the audio.

A difference was shown in father and son's bouts against Gas. When both had no hope of victory. Goku ran and played defense against Gas instead of fighting to win. This is the reason Gas says Goku lacks the "fire/resolve" his father had.

But that's also utter nonsense. Goku was resolved to save Gohan no matter what against Raditz. Even going so far as to sacrifice his life to do it. Goku received no buff for that. Conversely, Nappa was determined to lay waste to the entire Z-fighter team, Goku included, and fought with everything he had, only to be laid out flat by Goku's Kaioken. Nappa got no Saiyan boost from that. Even Vegeta was determined to make them all suffer after receiving humiliation after humiliation while fighting them. Pushed to use Oozaru, blasted in the eye, having his tail cut off, then harassed fighting Gohan, getting blasted with the mini Spirit Bomb, then slashed by Yajirobe from behind, and finally put against the Oozaru Gohan. Vegeta was determined to win and take them all out at every point to prove his superiority. Yet no Saiyan Pride/Spirit boost was forthcoming.

This creates a fundamental problem with this idea of "Saiyan Evolution" being proposed at this point, but also with Bardock himself. Because if this was always true and was that common knowledge among Saiyans, then why didn't King Vegeta abuse this benefit relentlessly in an attempt to break free from the control of Freeza and King cold? All he'd have to do is get a group of Elite Saiyans together and battle them relentlessly. And in probably a few months he'd be on Freeza's base level, if not higher. Especially if they abuse the use of the healing pods. If they could evolve and unlock new levels of power like that so easily and so quickly, then King Vegeta would never have had to bank their entire future of his Son. He'd instead get strong enough himself by abusing their Saiyan physiology and mentality to do the job himself.

Without any other Saiyan even considering that or displaying that kind of ability, it inherently implies that Bardock, a "Lower-Class Warrior", is Special. That the way he fights and the way he thinks is the way of a True Saiyan and that's why he's the only one who 'evolves' like this at that point in history. Which then implies that if Bardock is special, then Goku was always special, and that everything attributed to Goku is just inherited from Bardock. We already had that line before about Goku's 'softness' coming from being his Father's Son. Thus if Bardock is a special Saiyan, then so is Goku and Goku gets his special'ness from Bardock. Which undermines everything Goku has achieved all throughout his life. Goku's not a "Low-Class Warrior" who, through training, resolve and determination, was able to overcome incredible odds. Naw. It's because he's Special.

It's why I hate the idea of this all being directly connected to Goku. And why I hate Vegeta's portrayal too and him being "ohh I understand why Granolah hates Saiyans and I feel bad about it", when he had no such feelings towards Broly and Paragus, who'd suffered because of the actions of his father, King Vegeta. Vegeta didn't care about things that he had "no involvement with". Well, Vegeta had no involvement with the Saiyans being ordered to attack Planet Cereal, but he's supposed to feel guilty about what happened to Granolah? At least with the Namekians you could say it's because he attacked them himself all those years ago, but the Cerealeans? Vegeta had no connection with them at all. And if he's going to be weepy about Granolah, then he's just going to be the same with every race and civilization the Saiyans have attacked/destroyed across the universe. Both before and after they came under the control of King Cold and Freeza.

Thank you for the response. I did read all of it. You are correct Vegeta had nothing to do with the Cerealian's destruction. Beerus even told him that the Saiyans history has nothing to do with him now. IIRC Vegeta even told Granolah the same thing. However, Vegeta's conflict is due to the development he has received. He no longer is that callous man. He understands Granolah's revenge against him because of his people's actions. Hence why he believes his death, like the Saiyans, is fated to happen. This comes from guilt, which came with Vegeta's character development.

As for Bardock's power up, It came because of his mindset. King Vegeta didn't have a character like Bardock. He bowed down and accepted the fate of Freeza ruling the Saiyan people. So how could King Vegeta ever push past his limits if his thoughts are not focused on victory? It's not something that is common knowledge but based on character. Vegeta lost his marbles in his fight against Goku, when he found out he was weaker. He even went ape form. Yet Bardock stayed focused, without even the ability to go ape form, kept striving for victory. Goku was concerned about saving Gohan, not beating Radditz to a pulp with his own bare hands like his father against Gas. Goku also had help from Piccolo. How is that going to aid Goku push past his limits? It doesn't.

Bardock is still a low class warrior and it does not change the fact that Goku is birthed from that low class heritage. However, Bardock's mentality is something special. Which allowed him to surpass his own limits. Still whatever new power up he gained doesn't mean he is an elite all of a sudden. Goku's hard work is still established, yet he still needs to focus on the spiritual side of things for his current growth in UI [which is spiritually based].

[Grimlock]

It seems to be important.

And I'm betting a new question will arise out of this: does Toronbo, if such wish was granted, consider a power level around 1,000 to be strong?

[Miracles]

It seems to be important.

And I'm betting a new question will arise out of this: does Toronbo, if such wish was granted, consider a power level around 1,000 to be strong?

That translation is pretty much what the official English translation has. Instead of spelling it out they simply put "thrive." Which is the same as growing up healthy and strong.

That's why I always believed Bardock's wish concerning his kids was granted. Right after his petition, the Dragonball's scatter. Goku and Radditz were eventually saved from the destruction of planet Vegeta. Resulting in both growing up healthy and strong. After that, the wish is not responsible for Goku and Radditz anymore.

[nato25]

The huffy power-scalers continue to be gravely wrong about this scene.

They are mistaken, but not (in my opinion) due to any reading that attempts to bring Jiren down to something like Roshi's normal level in that fight - for the simple reason that, if the specifics of that exchange were about Jiren coming down significantly below how he was already performing against other opponents, and he were messing around on a level vastly below what, say, Goku could ordinarily do, then the answer to why Roshi did so well would be really not at all surprising, the astonishment of onlookers would be hard to explain, and there'd be no real reason for Goku to dumbfoundedly ask "How were you able to move like that?". Roshi's performance level when using the technique has to be objectively impressive next to what we've already seen, and so has to vault (at least much of the way - he does, after all, still lose) over that absolutely massive conventional power difference.

And that's thanks solely to his state of mind finding concrete application in a fight; not a transformation or whatever. Roshi talks about using what you have in the most effective way rather than trying to become conventionally stronger, and the power his body is able to project as a result is vastly stronger than the limits his conventional power permits (which is why I think the huffy power-scalers are wrong - Roshi's working to different 'rules' when he does this). If Roshi can do so well by this means against someone so overwhelmingly more powerful than him, it doesn't seem to me like any kind of stretch that Bardock can use the same basic kind of means against someone rather less overwhelmingly powerful and end up winning his own fight. That's why I consider Chapter 39 to be the appropriate precedent for Chapter 83, despite the differences of detail. You could add Chapter 57, I suppose, which bolsters aspects of this for Roshi also.

But as you've alluded to yourself in any case, it's the nature of these power-ups that are fundamentally different

They are different, but only in specifics, not in fundamentals, so far as I can see. Like so (differences underlined):

1. Muten Roshi enters a special state of mind centred around not thinking about anything -> His Body responds automatically to this special state of mind -> He becomes stronger and performs radically beyond his established conventional limits.
2. Bardock enters a special state of mind centred around absolute focus on victory -> His Saiyan Body responds automatically to this special state of mind -> He becomes stronger and performs radically beyond his established conventional limits.

Is there a really fundamental difference in this formulation? Because these are the really important elements of what we've been given by Chapters 39 (and 57, if you like) and 83 respectively, to my mind. Bardock seems to indicate that his Saiyan nature is an important particular detail, and a more definitive pronouncement confirming the specifics of that linkage would be nice - and I'm naturally willing to concede that I could well end up clearly mistaken since the arc still has further to go and (probably) more to say - but at this current point in time I don't see how what's Sauce for the Roshi Goose isn't Sauce for the Bardock Gander.

What would you say to Zelvins point however that other saiyans have had similar resolves and not achieved similar victories?

I think a lot of people take issue with roshi's ultra instinct lite as well, I think it seems less egregious to me as roshi has a precedent for wisdom and martial arts mastery and it seems logical Jiren had to lower his power greatly to avoid killing roshi with a touch. Dodging for a bit of time and winning a battle are different things.

[Mr Baggins]

*snip*

Well, de gustibus non disputandum, different strokes, etcetera etcetera. Best to just chalk this up to an irreconcilable difference in opinion.

The context both within and outside of that chapter makes it expressly clear that that's what was happening, and I don't at all find it surprising or contradictory that onlookers would react with astonishment at the turtle hermit busting out discrete non-conventional moves that gave even Jiren pause. As for Bardock, the distinction is precisely as I, Zelvin and a few other posters have stated; Bardock skyrocketing over Gas because of "determination" recontextualizes most conflicts in the original series for the worst. The motivational implications this levies on the Saiyan arc, the Freeza arc, the androids, etc. is fucking nonsense and I mainly blame its drastic presentation for that. We shouldn't have to do legwork to explain this away, and I know I'm not alone in thinking it was unnecessary.

Now with all that said, I understand what it's trying to do for this arc in particular. Given the observation Miracles brought up, there's clearly merit to your idea of the theme (possibly even the main theme) being "Why do we fight?" or some such variation. That's all well and good, but for me, it's clear that there are more competent ways to convey that idea.

I don't wanna keep raining on anyone's parade if some folks really did find this chapter enjoyable, so I guess I'll leave it at that.

That translation is pretty much what the official English translation has. Instead of spelling it out they simply put "thrive." Which is the same as growing up healthy and strong.

Yeah, "thrive" is a perfectly fine translation. I feel my commentary regarding that line stands regardless of however people want to phrase it in english.

[Grimlock]

That translation is pretty much what the official English translation has. Instead of spelling it out they simply put "thrive." Which is the same as growing up healthy and strong.

That's why I always believed Bardock's wish concerning his kids was granted. Right after his petition, the Dragonball's scatter. Goku and Radditz were eventually saved from the destruction of planet Vegeta. Resulting in both growing up healthy and strong. After that, the wish is not responsible for Goku and Radditz anymore.

But we know Goku faced situations which should have killed him, wouldn't the wish have an effect in those moments since Goku was still growing up? I mean, the wish waited two years to have its first effect applied, so who's to say it wouldn't "protect" them until they reach adulthood?

[emperior]

Bardock’s power up feels like the human equivalent of adrenalin, a state in which you draw out much more strength than usual but then revert back to normal (and are much tired afterwards, like Bardock was).

Ultra Instinct too was adrenalin-like at first, which is why it took quite a bit to Goku to learn how to tap into it at will.

So I don’t think this fight makes Bardock special or anything. His wording implies that it’s not something unusual for a Saiyan to do. Of course he couldn’t close the gap with Freeza like this, but Gas wasn’t so substantially stronger and so it worked.

[fleahop]

Now that I've had a bit more time to think it over and read comments from a variety of people, I can pick out one thing I love about this chapter.

I believe that it will have a lasting impact on those of us that cannot get enough of power scaling and its minutiae. I like the idea of a wide range of power per person depending on the situation and furthermore their specific fighting style actually making a difference.

With that being said, I do not care for how this idea was presented to us. This chapter feels incredibly out of place in regards to the story and its pacing. Also, Bardock's character is inconsistent at best. Past poor characterization in the series is not a good excuse for him to be a glorified plot device to become whatever he needs to be to fit their story. It's frustrating to me.

[Peach]

The huffy power-scalers continue to be gravely wrong about this scene.

They are mistaken, but not (in my opinion) due to any reading that attempts to bring Jiren down to something like Roshi's normal level in that fight - for the simple reason that, if the specifics of that exchange were about Jiren coming down significantly below how he was already performing against other opponents, and he were messing around on a level vastly below what, say, Goku could ordinarily do, then the answer to why Roshi did so well would be really not at all surprising, the astonishment of onlookers would be hard to explain, and there'd be no real reason for Goku to dumbfoundedly ask "How were you able to move like that?". Roshi's performance level when using the technique has to be objectively impressive next to what we've already seen, and so has to vault (at least much of the way - he does, after all, still lose) over that absolutely massive conventional power difference.

And that's thanks solely to his state of mind finding concrete application in a fight; not a transformation or whatever. Roshi talks about using what you have in the most effective way rather than trying to become conventionally stronger, and the power his body is able to project as a result is vastly stronger than the limits his conventional power permits (which is why I think the huffy power-scalers are wrong - Roshi's working to different 'rules' when he does this). If Roshi can do so well by this means against someone so overwhelmingly more powerful than him, it doesn't seem to me like any kind of stretch that Bardock can use the same basic kind of means against someone rather less overwhelmingly powerful and end up winning his own fight. That's why I consider Chapter 39 to be the appropriate precedent for Chapter 83, despite the differences of detail. You could add Chapter 57, I suppose, which bolsters aspects of this for Roshi also.

But as you've alluded to yourself in any case, it's the nature of these power-ups that are fundamentally different

They are different, but only in specifics, not in fundamentals, so far as I can see. Like so (differences underlined):

1. Muten Roshi enters a special state of mind centred around not thinking about anything -> His Body responds automatically to this special state of mind -> He becomes stronger and performs radically beyond his established conventional limits.
2. Bardock enters a special state of mind centred around absolute focus on victory -> His Saiyan Body responds automatically to this special state of mind -> He becomes stronger and performs radically beyond his established conventional limits.

Is there a really fundamental difference in this formulation? Because these are the really important elements of what we've been given by Chapters 39 (and 57, if you like) and 83 respectively, to my mind. Bardock seems to indicate that his Saiyan nature is an important particular detail, and a more definitive pronouncement confirming the specifics of that linkage would be nice - and I'm naturally willing to concede that I could well end up clearly mistaken since the arc still has further to go and (probably) more to say - but at this current point in time I don't see how what's Sauce for the Roshi Goose isn't Sauce for the Bardock Gander.

If Bardock got insanely strong by thinking about absolute victory, why couldn't he defeat Frieza then?

[apex_pretador]

If Bardock got insanely strong by thinking about absolute victory, why couldn't he defeat Frieza then?

Because Freeza is crazy powerful. He could probably finger flick Bardock's head off.

[TheSaiyanGod]

If Bardock got insanely strong by thinking about absolute victory, why couldn't he defeat Frieza then?

I'm seeing questions like this popping up since the release and I don't get why people (in general, not you specifically) are interpreting the scene this way. Bardock being able to close the gap and defeat Gas, within a specific context and a specific mindset and resolve, doesn't invalidate other character's fights or means that they weren't determined enough to defeat their respective enemies. Like, I don't think that's what we are supposed take from this scene at all. It's like asking why Goku didn't turned into a Super Saiyan after Kuririn's first death, or why Gohan didn't achieved the form after Piccolo's defeat. Gohan, in turn, constantly benefits from rage boosts but it doesn't always come with a huge power up and when it does, it's not always enough to overcome the villain

I'm not very fond on Bardock's power up but I don't think it's as absurd or egregious as some people are making it out to be. There's certainly other instances of more absurd and exponencial power ups in this series

[Magnificent Ponta]

What would you say to Zelvins point however that other saiyans have had similar resolves and not achieved similar victories?

I think Miracles made a very able response to this particular point by covering the key point about mentality/mindset, but if you'd like me to throw in my two penneth as well, then by all means - I'd be happy to. I guess my answer would be something like:

Is this really the case? They had this sort of resolve to win, to the exclusion of all other thought? I'm personally a little sceptical, and I can run through a few examples of why that might be, to illustrate the kind of thing I mean.

Goku vs. Vegeta - So, you'd think Goku should have perfect resolve to win this, right? The fate of the Earth and all his friends is on the line; Goku pushes himself beyond all conceivable limits, puts his life on the line in a series of clutch moves and trump cards that he tries to use; he literally places himself between the Earth and destruction; he fights on even when he's paralysed and on the point of death. But in Chapters 229, 234, and 241, it's made clear that Goku feels the surprise of being surpassed in all respects, but also the happiness of that experience and the thrilling excitement it gives him; it's the main thing he talks about by the time Chapter 234 rolls around, and by the time of Chapter 241, he's resolved above everything else to prove to himself that he can surpass Vegeta in future, and Kuririn's protestations cut no ice. So, despite the gravity of the situation, and despite the fact that Goku obviously aims to win because he knows the stakes, can we really say he has a focus on victory to the exclusion of all else? Or is there other stuff mixed in with that? It seems like the latter encroaches, and grows until it becomes the main thing for Goku, rather than an exclusive focus on winning the battle at hand.

Vegeta vs. The Ginyu Force - Vegeta knows he and his group have to win this if Freeza's not going to become immortal - his life's on the line here, and he knows winning is key - he even chides Gohan by specifically telling him to focus on beating the Ginyu Force rather than anything else. He tries sneak attacks, full force assaults, dirty tricks - it's clear he wants to carry this off and be standing at the end, right? But the fact is that, try as hard as he might, Vegeta goes into this fight with dread, and with the conviction that he's really just going to lose no matter what. He comes into this fight so fearful that he's cut a deal with Kuririn and Gohan, and he's even quietly hoping Goku will show up. When the time comes to fight Recoome, he simply says "This is where the real Hell begins..." And as the fight progresses, his focus shifts to how easily he's being handled, and he becomes increasingly convinced that he's just going to die in this fight. Nobody can say that Vegeta didn't try his absolute best to win against the Ginyus. But can they really say he focused on achieving victory, to the exclusion of all other thoughts? Is his resolve perfect, here?

Vegeta vs. Freeza - So, Vegeta still has a huge gulf to make up with Freeza here, but he thinks he can win, obviously intends to win, and as far as is known, everything's riding on his victory (since he thinks Goku won't return any stronger than he already was). It would've been really useful for Vegeta to be all about the victory, here. But in Chapter 305, he's glorying in the simple fact that he thinks he's a Super Saiyan, he's showing off what he can do, and he's thinking about how he's one-upped Goku. When things take a turn, he still tries to win by destroying Freeza (and the whole planet), but he's clinging to the idea of being a Super Saiyan in denial, fear is encroaching on his heart, which gives way to despair and a total loss of will to fight. So, Vegeta came into that fight with full confidence of victory and fully cognizant of the need to win, but can we really say he has a focus on victory to the exclusion of all else? In any case, it crumbles and gives way to the opposite in a trice. He doesn't push through on his resolve, even though he knows it means the end of everything - and desperation (which often occurs in other fights as well) isn't the same thing as will to win.

Gohan vs. Cell - Heck, where even to start with this example. Gohan knows the stakes at both the major pinch-points of this fight: first, he knows for sure that he's far and away the strongest of the heroes, and that he's the only hope against Cell. He has to win. But like Piccolo says, he's not thinking about fighting, or anger (and certainly not winning no matter what); he's scared, and wondering why his dad isn't coming to save him. Even when Cell pushes it further and Gohan knows people are going to die for keeps, and he even thinks "I want to beat Cell!", but he just...doesn't know what to do. His own mentality binds his will. Similarly, in the final clash of Kamehamehas, Gohan goes into that convinced that he has already lost; even when Goku steels Gohan's resolve (and Gohan insists he's doing his best), Goku points to a divided will "somewhere in your heart" - he's secretly worried about damaging the Earth in the clash, so he isn't letting his power explode, even if he isn't consciously holding himself back. When he finally uses all his power in a single, focused action at the key moment, he wipes out Cell in an instant. This whole thing was more complex than either knowing he had to win, or wanting to do it.

Vegeta vs. Granolah - One more, from Super this time, just for the scale of connections between this fight and the Bardock fight. Granolah believes he'll win simply because he's the strongest. Vegeta concedes Granolah is much stronger, but contends that this doesn't mean anything about whether or not he'll win. "That's the great thing about a battle. The outcome is never quite set in stone. It's exactly what I love about fighting." Granolah keeps demonstrating that he's much stronger, and therefore insists that Vegeta should admit defeat - but he doesn't. This clearly takes us a step toward what Bardock is going to do, because it likewise leads into Vegeta demonstrating the unbounded power of pure instinct - he even actually gets a transformation off the back of it, outpowers Granolah for a time, etc. He connects it to his Saiyan nature; he even comes within an ace of winning. But Vegeta also has other things mixed up in his focus. He's there to prove he's the strongest; he tells Goku that he only really came "to prove my superiority over you" (a rivalry element that Whis warned them about earlier); he apes Beerus's behaviours, but it's clear he doesn't genuinely feel the same way, as he admits in Chapter 76. He has his own reservations, his guilt, his sense of the hand of fate being right and unavoidable. He ends up willing to die, but not willing to win.

I could adduce more examples, naturally, but you get the kind of direction I'm going with this by now, I think. It's all very well to be highly motivated and determined in a general or specific sense, and it's indisputable that various characters have genuinely wanted to win their fights, more than anything - but to cultivate an absolutely pure thought, a perfectly direct, focused, and unadulterated act of self-control and will? That's extremely difficult; as difficult and as rare as being able to absolutely clear one's mind without stray thoughts or secret little stowaway intentions or flickers of emotion. Like Goku says to Merus, "when I'm fighting, my emotions are all over the place." It's that way for everyone, because that's natural. The self-control required to do the opposite is hard (incidentally, that's why Goku is so remarkable - he has put in the work to do that much at will, twice over). Even the instance where we do see it with Bardock, he manages it for an extremely short space of time after spending a whole fight revving himself up with the unreasoning and burgeoning determination not to be interrupted, not to be ordered off, not to escape, not to submit, not even to die until he's won, even in the face of apparently insurmountable odds. I can't personally think of an instance in Dragon Ball where a character pushed the simple and pure will to win that hard. The closest I can think of is Goku against Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr., in the final moments of each fight, and we similarly got performance vastly beyond what anyone would have thought possible in those moments - particularly against Piccolo Daimao, where we got a wild amount of (in retrospect, Saiyan, because Oozaru) power in a single finishing strike.

So - is this idea really as contradictory or as damaging to the series as people are suggesting? I think some sustained reflection is called for.

I think a lot of people take issue with roshi's ultra instinct lite as well, I think it seems less egregious to me as roshi has a precedent for wisdom and martial arts mastery and it seems logical Jiren had to lower his power greatly to avoid killing roshi with a touch. Dodging for a bit of time and winning a battle are different things.

Oh, for sure, I know a lot of people hated the Roshi thing at the time (some still do - they think it's total nonsense that goes against everything we know from the original, just like the Bardock thing now). And I agree with you that, although I've presented these two instances as basically analogous (because I believe they are), and even though they're surprisingly similar in their abrupt and surprising presentation (deliberately, I think), there are still important differences in the reader experience. To me, the experience of Chapter 39 is much more enjoyable than Chapter 83 (it's actually one of my favourite moments in all of Dragon Ball), but that's because it freights the moment with a host of visual and conceptual references that draw on the strength of what's come before in Dragon Ball to shove home the significance of the moment now. It's presented as a new revelation of what has always been at Goku's fingertips his whole life, and presented with a genuine emotional connection to the figure who shows us what Goku's been missing. I love it all.

But Chapter 83 isn't like that in the reader encounter (to me, anyway) - it feels more like a piece of a puzzle that we haven't quite fitted in its proper place yet. But then, the elements are different. Instead of a father figure recharacterising Goku's own experiences (which we have shared along the way) in a new light, we have his actual (unremembered) father shining a light on something that has hitherto been hidden to us. We don't have the sheer weight of material relating to Bardock to make connections that are as meaningful beyond the scope of the arc - we just have Minus (which many fans hate), Broly (which is a lightly-revised Minus), and whatever general influence Lonely Final Battle retains. It's really not much to draw on, by comparison. But that doesn't mean there isn't the potential for further meaningful connection here - wertham, for instance, makes an excellent point in saying that Bardock and Goku have always been presented as inextricably linked by strands of fate, which also stood out in this Chapter (and the arc in a more general sense - the constant drip-feeding of elements of fate is noteworthy; this was, to use arc parlance, a "vital point" in the fate of our heroes, but we haven't seen precisely how - yet). In serialisation, waiting for more things to fall into place is frustrating, but all it requires is constant engagement from the reader, meeting what's presented half-way. That's just my feeling; I don't blame people for losing patience given the wonky pacing of this arc, or thinking it might have been carried off better since we really only have half a 'moment' when comparing with Chapter 39 - but I do think the engagement is what is really key.

If Bardock got insanely strong by thinking about absolute victory, why couldn't he defeat Frieza then?

Why couldn't Roshi (or Goku, for that matter) beat Jiren? The power of instinct is massive, but that doesn't make it a guaranteed auto-win no matter who you're up against. Some obstacles are still too great, which is why it's so important to keep working at your own progress - this is Dragon Ball, where you can out-strong anything (and Freeza out-strongs everything in this period). The fact that we as readers know that Bardock will meet his destiny against Freeza one day in the not-too-distant future means that, as remarkable as this was, we know there's a limit to his abilities. He isn't Goku.

This, of course, assumes that Bardock was even able to do it properly on that occasion (using instinct stuff properly has been a huge issue for, like, more than half of Dragon Ball Super to date) - he does it for a really small (but crucial) instant against Gas after a while of just making no headway at all, and ends up half-dead despite managing to put him down. Again, there's limits to what's being done here - if it follows the trend of what Chapter 39 did, we might just see Goku go right ahead and do it better basically immediately.

Now with all that said, I understand what it's trying to do for this arc in particular. Given the observation Miracles brought up, there's clearly merit to your idea of the theme (possibly even the main theme) being "Why do we fight?" or some such variation. That's all well and good, but for me, it's clear that there are more competent ways to convey that idea.

I don't wanna keep raining on anyone's parade if some folks really did find this chapter enjoyable, so I guess I'll leave it at that.

No worries, old fellow. I really do get the feeling that it bums you out that you aren't enjoying it, so I'm genuinely sorry that you aren't.

[Koitsukai]

I agree with Magnificent Ponta's magnificent post. Those are good examples.
Some gaps cannot be closed with just the will of doing it, Goku was 3x weaker than Raditz, yet he put up a fairly decent fight, even if he was, in fact, being trashed by his brother. Without the right mindset and courage, he might've been oneshot and killed from the get go.
It's like the boost an athlete might get to win a race, a fight, a final match or a golden medal, coming from within themselves, from believing and knowing they cannot lose. Like an adrenaline rush, like it was also said, something that gives them that extra stuff needed to win a close event.

I have no problems with the type of boost Bardock got out of having the right mindset and determination. The gap closed doesn't have to be that big either, he is not 4k fighting a 20k fella.
I don't even think he got an actual power boost, but rather was utilizing his full power, and in a better way, that was hidden inside of him for different reasons. It isn't something new either: Toriyama mentioned that ki depends on energy, confidence and bravery. Like dialing open a safe, you can wield a lot of power even if you are not even close to the right combination, but when you are, brace yourselves. It goes the other way around, too. If Gas is losing focus and getting his head filled with questions, his power will diminish, so the gap is getting reduced from both ends.

Nappa vs Goku comes to mind, Nappa after calming himself down and reaiming his focus, started fighting on even grounds with Goku, who was just wiping the floor with his ass.

Gohan vs Cell - the beamclash, too. Injured and demoralized, admittedly had half his ki left, but slowly regained his confidence and grew stronger, like Ponta said.
This also seemed to happen for Gohan vs Dabura, there was something he was lacking, that prevented him from reaching his full potential. His "planets" are never completely aligned, so he's always coming up short (his rage boosts come as a surprise because he could only do that momentarily, and then revert back to his usual non-combatant mentality).

Jiren vs Goku is another good example. Jiren's final boost comes from his sheer will and determination, he is not choking like Cell or Vegeta when they discover there's somebody stronger, he is not burning down the house like Freeza, he is going all Bardock on Goku and proving to himself -and to Goku- that this is nothing and that he won't lose. And he's closing the gap with Goku's MnG.

How does this tie to Goku? He has always been modest, he is not cocky like Vegeta, which is also wrong. His mindset is usually: well who knows if I'm actually that out of my depth, let's see, waku waku. Which wouldn't change much in his previous fights, but apparently will make a difference with MnG.

[kemuri07]

If Bardock got insanely strong by thinking about absolute victory, why couldn't he defeat Frieza then?

I'm seeing questions like this popping up since the release and I don't get why people (in general, not you specifically) are interpreting the scene this way. Bardock being able to close the gap and defeat Gas, within a specific context and a specific mindset and resolve, doesn't invalidate other character's fights or means that they weren't determined enough to defeat their respective enemies. Like, I don't think that's what we are supposed take from this scene at all. It's like asking why Goku didn't turned into a Super Saiyan after Kuririn's first death, or why Gohan didn't achieved the form after Piccolo's defeat. Gohan, in turn, constantly benefits from rage boosts but it doesn't always come with a huge power up and when it does, it's not always enough to overcome the villain

I'm not very fond on Bardock's power up but I don't think it's as absurd or egregious as some people are making it out to be. There's certainly other instances of more absurd and exponencial power ups in this series

I think the issue is less that Bardock's fighting strength changes with his emotions (which is shonen 101) but that its execution is severely lacking. So it doesn't feel as impactful as the SSJ transformation, because it feels like it came from nowhere. I think that's what people are reacting to.

Not all of DB is created equally, and the reason why DBZ can get away with some of the stuff that we bitch about Super about is:

DBZ is a better product in every literal way.

[nato25]

What would you say to Zelvins point however that other saiyans have had similar resolves and not achieved similar victories?

I think Miracles made a very able response to this particular point by covering the key point about mentality/mindset, but if you'd like me to throw in my two penneth as well, then by all means - I'd be happy to. I guess my answer would be something like:

Is this really the case? They had this sort of resolve to win, to the exclusion of all other thought? I'm personally a little sceptical, and I can run through a few examples of why that might be, to illustrate the kind of thing I mean.

Goku vs. Vegeta - So, you'd think Goku should have perfect resolve to win this, right? The fate of the Earth and all his friends is on the line; Goku pushes himself beyond all conceivable limits, puts his life on the line in a series of clutch moves and trump cards that he tries to use; he literally places himself between the Earth and destruction; he fights on even when he's paralysed and on the point of death. But in Chapters 229, 234, and 241, it's made clear that Goku feels the surprise of being surpassed in all respects, but also the happiness of that experience and the thrilling excitement it gives him; it's the main thing he talks about by the time Chapter 234 rolls around, and by the time of Chapter 241, he's resolved above everything else to prove to himself that he can surpass Vegeta in future, and Kuririn's protestations cut no ice. So, despite the gravity of the situation, and despite the fact that Goku obviously aims to win because he knows the stakes, can we really say he has a focus on victory to the exclusion of all else? Or is there other stuff mixed in with that? It seems like the latter encroaches, and grows until it becomes the main thing for Goku, rather than an exclusive focus on winning the battle at hand.

Vegeta vs. The Ginyu Force - Vegeta knows he and his group have to win this if Freeza's not going to become immortal - his life's on the line here, and he knows winning is key - he even chides Gohan by specifically telling him to focus on beating the Ginyu Force rather than anything else. He tries sneak attacks, full force assaults, dirty tricks - it's clear he wants to carry this off and be standing at the end, right? But the fact is that, try as hard as he might, Vegeta goes into this fight with dread, and with the conviction that he's really just going to lose no matter what. He comes into this fight so fearful that he's cut a deal with Kuririn and Gohan, and he's even quietly hoping Goku will show up. When the time comes to fight Recoome, he simply says "This is where the real Hell begins..." And as the fight progresses, his focus shifts to how easily he's being handled, and he becomes increasingly convinced that he's just going to die in this fight. Nobody can say that Vegeta didn't try his absolute best to win against the Ginyus. But can they really say he focused on achieving victory, to the exclusion of all other thoughts? Is his resolve perfect, here?

Vegeta vs. Freeza - So, Vegeta still has a huge gulf to make up with Freeza here, but he thinks he can win, obviously intends to win, and as far as is known, everything's riding on his victory (since he thinks Goku won't return any stronger than he already was). It would've been really useful for Vegeta to be all about the victory, here. But in Chapter 305, he's glorying in the simple fact that he thinks he's a Super Saiyan, he's showing off what he can do, and he's thinking about how he's one-upped Goku. When things take a turn, he still tries to win by destroying Freeza (and the whole planet), but he's clinging to the idea of being a Super Saiyan in denial, fear is encroaching on his heart, which gives way to despair and a total loss of will to fight. So, Vegeta came into that fight with full confidence of victory and fully cognizant of the need to win, but can we really say he has a focus on victory to the exclusion of all else? In any case, it crumbles and gives way to the opposite in a trice. He doesn't push through on his resolve, even though he knows it means the end of everything - and desperation (which often occurs in other fights as well) isn't the same thing as will to win.

Gohan vs. Cell - Heck, where even to start with this example. Gohan knows the stakes at both the major pinch-points of this fight: first, he knows for sure that he's far and away the strongest of the heroes, and that he's the only hope against Cell. He has to win. But like Piccolo says, he's not thinking about fighting, or anger (and certainly not winning no matter what); he's scared, and wondering why his dad isn't coming to save him. Even when Cell pushes it further and Gohan knows people are going to die for keeps, and he even thinks "I want to beat Cell!", but he just...doesn't know what to do. His own mentality binds his will. Similarly, in the final clash of Kamehamehas, Gohan goes into that convinced that he has already lost; even when Goku steels Gohan's resolve (and Gohan insists he's doing his best), Goku points to a divided will "somewhere in your heart" - he's secretly worried about damaging the Earth in the clash, so he isn't letting his power explode, even if he isn't consciously holding himself back. When he finally uses all his power in a single, focused action at the key moment, he wipes out Cell in an instant. This whole thing was more complex than either knowing he had to win, or wanting to do it.

Vegeta vs. Granolah - One more, from Super this time, just for the scale of connections between this fight and the Bardock fight. Granolah believes he'll win simply because he's the strongest. Vegeta concedes Granolah is much stronger, but contends that this doesn't mean anything about whether or not he'll win. "That's the great thing about a battle. The outcome is never quite set in stone. It's exactly what I love about fighting." Granolah keeps demonstrating that he's much stronger, and therefore insists that Vegeta should admit defeat - but he doesn't. This clearly takes us a step toward what Bardock is going to do, because it likewise leads into Vegeta demonstrating the unbounded power of pure instinct - he even actually gets a transformation off the back of it, outpowers Granolah for a time, etc. He connects it to his Saiyan nature; he even comes within an ace of winning. But Vegeta also has other things mixed up in his focus. He's there to prove he's the strongest; he tells Goku that he only really came "to prove my superiority over you" (a rivalry element that Whis warned them about earlier); he apes Beerus's behaviours, but it's clear he doesn't genuinely feel the same way, as he admits in Chapter 76. He has his own reservations, his guilt, his sense of the hand of fate being right and unavoidable. He ends up willing to die, but not willing to win.

I could adduce more examples, naturally, but you get the kind of direction I'm going with this by now, I think. It's all very well to be highly motivated and determined in a general or specific sense, and it's indisputable that various characters have genuinely wanted to win their fights, more than anything - but to cultivate an absolutely pure thought, a perfectly direct, focused, and unadulterated act of self-control and will? That's extremely difficult; as difficult and as rare as being able to absolutely clear one's mind without stray thoughts or secret little stowaway intentions or flickers of emotion. Like Goku says to Merus, "when I'm fighting, my emotions are all over the place." It's that way for everyone, because that's natural. The self-control required to do the opposite is hard (incidentally, that's why Goku is so remarkable - he has put in the work to do that much at will, twice over). Even the instance where we do see it with Bardock, he manages it for an extremely short space of time after spending a whole fight revving himself up with the unreasoning and burgeoning determination not to be interrupted, not to be ordered off, not to escape, not to submit, not even to die until he's won, even in the face of apparently insurmountable odds. I can't personally think of an instance in Dragon Ball where a character pushed the simple and pure will to win that hard. The closest I can think of is Goku against Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr., in the final moments of each fight, and we similarly got performance vastly beyond what anyone would have thought possible in those moments - particularly against Piccolo Daimao, where we got a wild amount of (in retrospect, Saiyan, because Oozaru) power in a single finishing strike.

So - is this idea really as contradictory or as damaging to the series as people are suggesting? I think some sustained reflection is called for.

I think a lot of people take issue with roshi's ultra instinct lite as well, I think it seems less egregious to me as roshi has a precedent for wisdom and martial arts mastery and it seems logical Jiren had to lower his power greatly to avoid killing roshi with a touch. Dodging for a bit of time and winning a battle are different things.

Oh, for sure, I know a lot of people hated the Roshi thing at the time (some still do - they think it's total nonsense that goes against everything we know from the original, just like the Bardock thing now). And I agree with you that, although I've presented these two instances as basically analogous (because I believe they are), and even though they're surprisingly similar in their abrupt and surprising presentation (deliberately, I think), there are still important differences in the reader experience. To me, the experience of Chapter 39 is much more enjoyable than Chapter 83 (it's actually one of my favourite moments in all of Dragon Ball), but that's because it freights the moment with a host of visual and conceptual references that draw on the strength of what's come before in Dragon Ball to shove home the significance of the moment now. It's presented as a new revelation of what has always been at Goku's fingertips his whole life, and presented with a genuine emotional connection to the figure who shows us what Goku's been missing. I love it all.

But Chapter 83 isn't like that in the reader encounter (to me, anyway) - it feels more like a piece of a puzzle that we haven't quite fitted in its proper place yet. But then, the elements are different. Instead of a father figure recharacterising Goku's own experiences (which we have shared along the way) in a new light, we have his actual (unremembered) father shining a light on something that has hitherto been hidden to us. We don't have the sheer weight of material relating to Bardock to make connections that are as meaningful beyond the scope of the arc - we just have Minus (which many fans hate), Broly (which is a lightly-revised Minus), and whatever general influence Lonely Final Battle retains. It's really not much to draw on, by comparison. But that doesn't mean there isn't the potential for further meaningful connection here - wertham, for instance, makes an excellent point in saying that Bardock and Goku have always been presented as inextricably linked by strands of fate, which also stood out in this Chapter (and the arc in a more general sense - the constant drip-feeding of elements of fate is noteworthy; this was, to use arc parlance, a "vital point" in the fate of our heroes, but we haven't seen precisely how - yet). In serialisation, waiting for more things to fall into place is frustrating, but all it requires is constant engagement from the reader, meeting what's presented half-way. That's just my feeling; I don't blame people for losing patience given the wonky pacing of this arc, or thinking it might have been carried off better since we really only have half a 'moment' when comparing with Chapter 39 - but I do think the engagement is what is really key.

If Bardock got insanely strong by thinking about absolute victory, why couldn't he defeat Frieza then?

Why couldn't Roshi (or Goku, for that matter) beat Jiren? The power of instinct is massive, but that doesn't make it a guaranteed auto-win no matter who you're up against. Some obstacles are still too great, which is why it's so important to keep working at your own progress - this is Dragon Ball, where you can out-strong anything (and Freeza out-strongs everything in this period). The fact that we as readers know that Bardock will meet his destiny against Freeza one day in the not-too-distant future means that, as remarkable as this was, we know there's a limit to his abilities. He isn't Goku.

This, of course, assumes that Bardock was even able to do it properly on that occasion (using instinct stuff properly has been a huge issue for, like, more than half of Dragon Ball Super to date) - he does it for a really small (but crucial) instant against Gas after a while of just making no headway at all, and ends up half-dead despite managing to put him down. Again, there's limits to what's being done here - if it follows the trend of what Chapter 39 did, we might just see Goku go right ahead and do it better basically immediately.

Now with all that said, I understand what it's trying to do for this arc in particular. Given the observation Miracles brought up, there's clearly merit to your idea of the theme (possibly even the main theme) being "Why do we fight?" or some such variation. That's all well and good, but for me, it's clear that there are more competent ways to convey that idea.

I don't wanna keep raining on anyone's parade if some folks really did find this chapter enjoyable, so I guess I'll leave it at that.

No worries, old fellow. I really do get the feeling that it bums you out that you aren't enjoying it, so I'm genuinely sorry that you aren't.

Well argued Magnificent Ponta, thank you I feel better about this chapter!

[EGonzo]

If Bardock got insanely strong by thinking about absolute victory, why couldn't he defeat Frieza then?

I'm seeing questions like this popping up since the release and I don't get why people (in general, not you specifically) are interpreting the scene this way. Bardock being able to close the gap and defeat Gas, within a specific context and a specific mindset and resolve, doesn't invalidate other character's fights or means that they weren't determined enough to defeat their respective enemies. Like, I don't think that's what we are supposed take from this scene at all. It's like asking why Goku didn't turned into a Super Saiyan after Kuririn's first death, or why Gohan didn't achieved the form after Piccolo's defeat. Gohan, in turn, constantly benefits from rage boosts but it doesn't always come with a huge power up and when it does, it's not always enough to overcome the villain

I'm not very fond on Bardock's power up but I don't think it's as absurd or egregious as some people are making it out to be. There's certainly other instances of more absurd and exponencial power ups in this series

I think the issue is less that Bardock's fighting strength changes with his emotions (which is shonen 101) but that its execution is severely lacking. So it doesn't feel as impactful as the SSJ transformation, because it feels like it came from nowhere. I think that's what people are reacting to.

Not all of DB is created equally, and the reason why DBZ can get away with some of the stuff that we bitch about Super about is:

DBZ is a better product in every literal way.

Agree on this. I'd also argue it's why many people preferred the Super anime to the manga, even if it's a more flawed product: it really knew how make a spectacle of its stories, whereas the manga might be more competent but it's execution can be very bland a lot of times

[TheSaiyanGod]

I think the issue is less that Bardock's fighting strength changes with his emotions (which is shonen 101) but that its execution is severely lacking. So it doesn't feel as impactful as the SSJ transformation, because it feels like it came from nowhere. I think that's what people are reacting to.

Not all of DB is created equally, and the reason why DBZ can get away with some of the stuff that we bitch about Super about is:

DBZ is a better product in every literal way.

I didn't mean to compare Bardock's transformation scene with the first Super Saiyan transformation (after all, if that's the bar, then almost every other power up will end up not as impacting).

My line of reasoning was just that using as an argument "if character X got a power up in situation A, why didn't character Y get the same power up in situation B?" means ignoring the context of those moments and why they happened. And it's a kind of argument that you can simply applyin other situations of the series as well to question why they happened that way (like the Super Saiyan examples I cited). Anyway, I believe Ponta explained all this much better. I also think that a lot of the negative opinions regarding this power up come from the fact that Bardock is not a character with a lot of background in the series, unlike established characters who have received builds for their power ups, which can cause Bardock's boost to seem sudden. It doesn't help that Bardock's very inclusion in the arc is already preemptively dismissed as fanfic or something that "doesn't feel like Dragon Ball", which makes anything related to the character be viewed with grudging and sometimes, unfairly in my opinion (but I'm not here necessarily disagreeing with every negative post towards this, good points were raised too)

[Seekeroftruth]

This chapter was horrible and a complete waste of time. No insight into how to beat Gas other than pulling power ups out your butt. Complete mischaracterization of bardock and using his as a plot device to drive things along. In addition to all this, the rest of Gas gang for the entire chapter are just sitting there watching the battle rather than intervening to give gas an advantage (aka character induce stupidity).

[Skar]

Bardock overpowering Gas due to will power and determination kinda seems like the standard shonen trope that the original rarely used. It might not have needed that long of a flashback if that's all it ended up being. I don't think it's necessarily bad but I guess I was more expecting Bardock to discover a weakness or a technique useful to this situation.

[Seekeroftruth]

Bardock overpowering Gas due to will power and determination kinda seems like the standard shonen trope that the original rarely used. It might not have needed that long of a flashback if that's all it ended up being. I don't think it's necessarily bad but I guess I was more expecting Bardock to discover a weakness or a technique useful to this situation.

Bardock overpowering gas via sheer will is pathetic excuse and poor writing. This not warrant an entire chapter if it was just that. Also they completely undermined goku's hardwork and characterization and made bardock look like a complete idiot.