Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Nistarkail » Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:35 pm

Galan007 wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:53 pm If you guys *had* to speculate, what level would you put Chap. 83 Bardock/Gas at?

Nappa-level?
Saiyan saga Vegeta-level?
Dodoria-level?
Burter/Jeice-level?

Below that? Above that?
Judging from environmental damage and their attack pattern, both of them were between Piccolo and Nappa (not at maximum power). So, probably 3.750 and more or less 7.000 when at maximum. Let's remember than Goku after King Kai's planet had a base power of 8.000.

And about Gas, it seems that maybe 3.900 in his normal state and 6.500 when his instinct was fully released.

The difference between Gas and Bardock is more technical than physical, and even a slight difference of power level can be enough to have the upper hand.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:25 am

I should be more weirded out at the peeps here for whatever reason conceptualising from this chapter the notion that Bardock is still alive post-Minus/Broly, thinking Bardock/Gas are apparently/could've been as strong as/stronger than Freeza (who at that point in time was exclusively in his 1st form with barely anyone else knowing he had 3 more forms), or every bit of trash talk Gas threw at Bardock was completely honest w/o exaggeration (like, katchinite is the strongest metal in the universe).

Then again, a good deal seem to be blasting the chapter thinking that Bardock's vaguely defined wish was actually granted or being mad without understanding why such a wish was even attempted/entertained, so maybe not. Note on the former: it probably wasn't (the DBs scattered, but the Boo arc and Super anime ep 68 have shown the DBs can scatter even without all wishes being made), or if such a wish was made, the way the story frames it means it likely concerns Granolah more than Goku/Raditz. As for the latter, I read it as just a standalone display of "good dad Bardock" + it changed Monaito's mind from accepting his/Granolah's fate by sending Bardock away (referred as "a selfish wish"/"grave mistake") to realising he should - with his own two hands - directly protect the young Granolah/"what hope we've got left with all I've got" (in which "a wish is a way to create hope for the future") by helping Bardock with Gas (which he does by taking a spear for him, spurring his winning instinct-based zenkai power up, & healing him after the fact).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by capsulecorp » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:39 am

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 5:25 am I should be more weirded out at the peeps here for whatever reason conceptualising from this chapter the notion that Bardock is still alive post-Minus/Broly, thinking Bardock/Gas are apparently/could've been as strong as/stronger than Freeza (who at that point in time was exclusively in his 1st form with barely anyone else knowing he had 3 more forms), or every bit of trash talk Gas threw at Bardock was completely honest w/o exaggeration (like, katchinite is the strongest metal in the universe).

Then again, a good deal seem to be blasting the chapter thinking that Bardock's vaguely defined wish was actually granted or being mad without understanding why such a wish was even attempted/entertained, so maybe not. Note on the former: it probably wasn't (the DBs scattered, but the Boo arc and Super anime ep 68 have shown the DBs can scatter even without all wishes being made), or if such a wish was made, the way the story frames it means it likely concerns Granolah more than Goku/Raditz. As for the latter, I read it as just a standalone display of "good dad Bardock" + it changed Monaito's mind from accepting his/Granolah's fate by sending Bardock away (referred as "a selfish wish"/"grave mistake") to realising he should - with his own two hands - directly protect the young Granolah/"what hope we've got left with all I've got" (in which "a wish is a way to create hope for the future") by helping Bardock with Gas (which he does by taking a spear for him, spurring his winning instinct-based zenkai power up, & healing him after the fact).
A very reasonable post. You don't have to love the manga, but this is the most obvious, straightforward, agenda-free reading of these "controversial" plot elements.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:07 pm

Necrosaber wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:03 pm I think people losing track of things with all the flashback jumps. Gas was way weaker fighting Bardock than when you first see him in the beginning of the arc. If he was Frieza level, they would have taken over his forces a long time ago. You didn't even really see how strong he was prior to the wish Elec made, so that skews things even more.

Still not sure what Goku is supposed to learn from Bardock's battle though. I'm hoping it'll make sense in chapter 84.
Hopefully. We've also let aside a bit (due to this month's chapter focusing purely on Bardock vs Gas & the hoopla about the wish/zenkai) that Goku's also just remembered the repressed memory of his parents telling to him to "stay alive" & that Goku figuring out "who he is" (in short, I'm guessing it's that he's a survivor) is key towards better sharpening & grasping of his own style of UI (as a Saiyan/Earthling/survivor) rather than trying to copy an Angel's mindset. This, plus Bardock generating a zenkai out of pure instinct to win a fight, will prob go in line with Vegeta yammering in UE about power from instinct being unbounded.

While I do have my issue with this route in extending Goku's power/UI progression in that perfected UI Goku was basically operating at max capacity vs Moro (Whis noting him finetuning his moves more & more, Beerus saying the way he fights is godlike, UI being so honed it auto-hardened against Moro's hand, etc), I'll just chalk it up to that being from Goku fully channeling himself into basically cosplaying as a Galactic Patrolman & Moro being a lowly scrub. He did also solo Granolah in that state w/ no mentality issues, but then again that was a clone of some amount of the real Granolah's power.

On the note of some debate over what Goku having to learn from Bardock being that "he has to be more determined to win/take life or death battles more seriously" and that he already has been so, these Toriyama quotes may provide a bit more insight, but I myself am still wrapping my head around them (like Goku's rule being more about "winning" than "defeating the enemy" when they tend to go hand in hand):

Image

Image

Alongside what Vegeta touted about Goku in the Boo arc climax (the left speech bubble being one of Goku's best virtues, but apparently now he also should learn more about the right speech bubble):

Image

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:01 pm

Shorty GZ2 wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 6:07 pmOn the note of some debate over what Goku having to learn from Bardock being that "he has to be more determined to win/take life or death battles more seriously" and that he already has been so, these Toriyama quotes may provide a bit more insight, but I myself am still wrapping my head around them (like Goku's rule being more about "winning" than "defeating the enemy" when they tend to go hand in hand)
I think one clue is in Toriyama also mentioning in that interview that to Goku, fighting is kind of like a "sporting match" - it's not necessarily for keeps, it's to test oneself against someone else - hence why Toriyama notes that for Goku it doesn't matter whether his opponent is good or bad; it's all an opportunity to "win" against himself (to adapt a Roshi quote - "We don't master martial arts to win fights. We do it to conquer ourselves"). So whoever wins the fight itself, or however grave the broader situation is, for Goku at some point it tends to yield some sort of "ahhh, good fight, let's do it again sometime" kind of sentiment (see: Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, Kid Buu, Beerus, Hit, Jiren, Moro) and looking towards the next challenge becomes the real goal. As you note, Vegeta credits Goku's matchless progress to that basic idea. But sometimes, fighting does need to be for keeps, and it is about winning in the sense of 'beating down the guy in front of you', because it has to be - that kind of exclusive, do-or-die focus and drive that pulls victory out of the bag when it just seems impossible.

I guess the former is maybe more like a general fighting philosophy about seeking challenge, and the latter is more like how one's specific approach to the challenge ought to be when it actually presents itself?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:13 pm

The way I see it Goku enjoys fighting, but ultimately not with the intention of eliminating competition or defeat evil. Vegeta aims to win, but he doesn’t feel comfortable with having competition, because he is too proud. So, maybe Bardock has a very extreme approach to that sense of “winning”, but Goku’s is entirely different. He has to make peace with it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:24 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 7:13 pm So, maybe Bardock has a very extreme approach to that sense of “winning”, but Goku’s is entirely different. He has to make peace with it.
That's why I'm fine with this whole "determination" angle in the context of UI specifically (Bardock and non-UI not so much, but it is what it is). I probably won't find it all that compelling or remarkable, and it's kinda been done before, but at least it's something you can add to Goku's calm mental state in Ultra Instinct without totally reverting the strides he's made.

It's whatever, it's cool -- in isolation, that is. The arc in general is a whole different ball game that I'll have to post about later after it ends in a couple months.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sat Apr 30, 2022 3:41 pm

My lowball guess is that to symbolise him sharpening UI/making it his own in this arc, Toyo will give UI Goku an aura (like Bardock). Or he'll be able to fully use UI in base & he'll look like Sign in the manga with no aura.

Plus part of the thing about UI Goku in the manga, esp in this arc (besides Toyo stretching to extend Goku's already finished UI growth & trying to tie Bardock/his Saiyan aspect into it), is that he gets BTFO when distracted/disturbed/shocked & his concentration breaks, so I'm wondering if the "new & improved" UI Goku will either be immune to that/be more impassive with a fiercer bent or he'll have more room for traditional emotional expression (like how he's started speaking/being shocked in UI in Moro & this arc).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zelvin » Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:39 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:24 pm That's why I'm fine with this whole "determination" angle in the context of UI specifically (Bardock and non-UI not so much, but it is what it is). I probably won't find it all that compelling or remarkable, and it's kinda been done before, but at least it's something you can add to Goku's calm mental state in Ultra Instinct without totally reverting the strides he's made.

It's whatever, it's cool -- in isolation, that is. The arc in general is a whole different ball game that I'll have to post about later after it ends in a couple months.
One of the biggest things about all this that I wholeheartedly disagree with is how UI is being treated. It's whole concept is effectively being abandoned for the sake of Goku having his own "unique" flavor of it. The whole purpose and idea of UI is that it is a state where the Body moves and reacts without input from the brain. Without thought. As Whis explained, there is always a delay between thought and action. Hence UI removes the necessity of thought, enabling every part of the body to Act without that delay. Without thought.

By pushing for the "Determination" angle, they're placing a Conscious Decision onto what has been an Unconscious Action. I very much disagree with this as it removes the whole concept of UI from the equation. If they just decide to turn it into, what I would call, Determined Instinct, then they're kinda going in the same direction as Vegeta's Ultra Ego. Allow me to explain. If the idea of Determination based on Bardock's concept of "Focusing on winning above all else", then that "all else" would also include Defending Yourself. That would entail DI going for the hardest blows while ignoring all defense. It would become a state of pure offense with no sense to avoid danger to the body. It's winning at all cost, even unto death. Which is not all too different from Ultra Ego in that the form is meant to take damage and ignore defending yourself.

When UI was first being explained, the way I saw it was different than how it ended up being treated. That it shouldn't be a transformation, but a state of being. Not a form that amps your stats like everything has been shown to do in the traditional sense. But a state where all of the users energy is condensed and compressed to the smallest point. Which would not just make it sharper, but denser. It's about motion with the least movement necessary so that all that energy can be used for evasion and offense, both occurring simultaneously without thought.

It's the same idea with pushing the same volume of water through a narrower and narrower opening. The smaller the tube and opening gets, the more pressure is created, the faster it moves and exits. This is how a high-pressure water jet is made. Continuing to increase that pressure and water density can allow even water to cut steel and is what's used to sharpen and clean diamonds. Apply this same concept to Ki within the body and what you get is something extraordinarily intense.

That's what I see UI as. All of your energy condensed, compressed and focused through the narrowest point possible. That would allow anyone to achieve a level of speed and force they're otherwise completely incapable of through an other method. This was why Whis was teaching Goku and Vegeta to control their ki and to prevent it from leaking out. That was the whole purpose of their training within the space created by Whis' staff, where they couldn't move their bodies until they stopped their energy from escaping. That, to me, was just the start of what was needed to begin learning UI. Unfortunately it feels like this has been completely abandoned.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:03 pm

It's worth noting that Ultra Instinct isn't completely without thought - otherwise Goku wouldn't be able to speak, respond, or initiate complex actions at all - but instead eschews the brain's deliberative processing power in order to perform movements at maximum efficiency with little conscious effort, i.e. muscle memory. That's what Whis is getting across, albeit simplified and truncated for the reader. It's a zen state of mind opposite to Ultra Ego in principle, not necesssarily the complete absence of mind.

I keep using the word "determination", but what I really mean is that Goku is presumably just putting even more focus into an already "in the zone" disposition. I can't see an immediate issue with that, although there's no way to know how exactly the manga will expound upon it. I'd agree that adding any deeper cogitation would be an obvious problem, though.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zelvin » Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:01 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:03 pm It's worth noting that Ultra Instinct isn't completely without thought - otherwise Goku wouldn't be able to speak, respond, or initiate complex actions at all - but instead eschews the brain's deliberative processing power in order to perform movements at maximum efficiency with little conscious effort, i.e. muscle memory. That's what Whis is getting across, albeit simplified and truncated for the reader. It's a zen state of mind opposite to Ultra Ego in principle, not necesssarily the complete absence of mind.
It is actually to be able to defend and respond without thought. It's not like the brain shuts down, it's that the body performs action without interference from the brain. We saw this with Sign against Kefla when Goku tried to consciously shift from Defense to Offense. Not only was it awkward, his attacks themselves were weaker than they otherwise would've been. Muscle Memory just allows you to repeat an action you've performed many times without having to put much thought into it. UI is about the Body itself deciding the best action without conscious input. If Goku makes a conscious decision on the kind of attack to use, that will cause a delay in actually performing the action.
keep using the word "determination", but what I really mean is that Goku is presumably just putting even more focus into an already "in the zone" disposition. I can't see an immediate issue with that, although there's no way to know how exactly the manga will expound upon it. I'd agree that adding any deeper cogitation would be an obvious problem, though.
Thing is, it doesn't many any sense at all for him to be "more focused". Unlike Bardock, Goku has a number of abilities he didn't have and options that were never available to Bardock. His options were basically fight and die, or fight and maybe survive. Also, there is the problem with saying anger interferes with UI, when in the ToP he was angry with Jiren when Jiren deliberately attacked the audience, yet there seemed to be no disruption in using UI. Not only that, but Goku was most certainly determined to win given the circumstances. When you add in the idea that Goku perfected UI through training with Merus, then the whole idea that he needs to be even MORE Determined, MORE Focused after all of that, it comes off as absolute nonsense. As does the idea that he needs to make "UI his own", when it already effectively is.

This all comes back to another huge problem with Super; Character Resets. Where all the progress they've made means nothing and they just have to do it all over again. And at the end of the day, the Heeters are unimportant as far as villains go. They're like Filler. And the whole thing with Bardock has been terribly forced. A lot of this comes far too late to really matter.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:50 pm

Zelvin wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:01 pm We saw this with Sign against Kefla when Goku tried to consciously shift from Defense to Offense.
Zelvin wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:01 pm Also, there is the problem with saying anger interferes with UI, when in the ToP he was angry with Jiren when Jiren deliberately attacked the audience, yet there seemed to be no disruption in using UI.
I couldn't care less what the anime does because it's notoriously inconsistent. None of that happens in the manga, which has thus far constantly shown that Goku's entire demeanor changes to calm and relatively expressionless by default while using the completed version of the form. In this arc, he's in a meditative state in UI even in base. The mind and body are inextricably linked; it's the whole point of Goku having to change his mindset, both in the ToP and during the Moro arc, to use it effectively in the first place.

Consciousness/ego isn't an on-off switch, it's a spectrum wherein Goku uses it minimally for Ultra Instinct and Vegeta uses it maximally for Ultra Ego. Making his technique more focused is just pushing it further along the spectrum. That's all fine.

But like I said, we'll see what happens. Making him angry or emotive actually would be contradictory with what the manga plainly established.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zelvin » Sun May 01, 2022 12:05 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:50 pm I couldn't care less what the anime does because it's notoriously inconsistent.
The anime is the primary canon under Toriyama. Meaning it holds far more weight than the Super Manga. Which is also incredibly inconsistent
None of that happens in the manga, which has thus far constantly shown that Goku's entire demeanor changes to calm and relatively expressionless by default while using the completed version of the form.
Not really. The whole thing about the last part of the Moro Ard was basically just a giant memberberry where all the beats were effectively reminiscent of Goku first going SSJ on Namek against Freeza.
In this arc, he's in a meditative state in UI even in base. The mind and body are inextricably linked; it's the whole point of Goku having to change his mindset, both in the ToP and during the Moro arc, to use it effectively in the first place.
It wasn't about a change of mindset, it was about removing conscious action from the equation and allowing his body to respond without his mental input. Which was how UI Sign was first activated because Goku was unconscious and it was losing effectiveness because he was becoming aware and conscious towards the end of that engagement with Jiren.
Consciousness/ego isn't an on-off switch, it's a spectrum wherein Goku uses it minimally for Ultra Instinct and Vegeta uses it maximally for Ultra Ego. Making his technique more focused is just pushing it further along the spectrum. That's all fine.

But like I said, we'll see what happens. Making him angry or emotive actually would be contradictory with what the manga plainly established.
And there's the thing. The Manga is it's own thing with so many inconsistencies and so many things that blatantly break the series' own established rules, that ultimately whatever decision is made on how to continue with this will not be satisfactory and not fix anything that's already gone wrong
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sun May 01, 2022 7:08 am

lol

(and also, keep conflating those continuities & overweighting 1 of em compared to the other, you're doing great at it, esp in a thread dedicated to 1 continuity in particular)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by capsulecorp » Sun May 01, 2022 11:45 am

Zelvin wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 12:05 am The anime is the primary canon under Toriyama. Meaning it holds far more weight than the Super Manga. Which is also incredibly inconsistent
I'm not really sure what you mean, but I'm pretty sure you're incorrect.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun May 01, 2022 12:15 pm

Yeah... I won't even dignify that post with a quoted response.

This continuity has been uber clear about what UI is, and has directly stated its requirements multiple times across three different arcs. Any argument that veers over to "manga isn't primary canon" (whatever the fuck that means) or "manga is unsatisfactory no matter what it does" is obviously not being made in good faith. There's nothing further to discuss.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun May 01, 2022 3:24 pm

I really hope Toyotaro understands; as Gas travels closer to the Cearlian's planet, he should be able to Instantaneous Movement to Goku and Vegeta, to speed up the pace here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sun May 01, 2022 5:56 pm

I really don't get people who think the manga isn't canon but the anime, you know the show that got cancelled four years ago somehow is? Like its pretty apparent that Toei has dropped the anime in favor for the manga, both Broly and Superhero are vague enough that they don't say whether it supports the manga or the anime, and if any new anime of Super is released it will all but certainly be a direct adaptation of the manga.


We can go and explain ourselves into a tizzy, but it doesn't dismiss the fact that the entirety of this arc is a mess. I the fact that we're arguing about whether or not Bardock's wish was granted really speaks to how mess this whole thing is in regards to the franchise's lore, and rather than give us something to chew on or make us see these characters in a new light, it really just makes things more confusing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by Shorty GZ2 » Sun May 01, 2022 6:27 pm

It's generally because the anime is way more high profile (the manga may have a decent amount of fans & ppl requesting for its material to be adapted, but the anime broke servers & gathered town squares' worth of ppl to watch it), had a far more frequent release schedule of weekly compared to the manga's monthly, and used as the primary source of adaptation for stuff like merch & video games like Dokkan/Legends/Xenoverse
kemuri07 wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 5:56 pm We can go and explain ourselves into a tizzy, but it doesn't dismiss the fact that the entirety of this arc is a mess. I the fact that we're arguing about whether or not Bardock's wish was granted really speaks to how mess this whole thing is in regards to the franchise's lore, and rather than give us something to chew on or make us see these characters in a new light, it really just makes things more confusing.
I mean, you're the one here for some reason speculating that Bardock is still alive from this most recent chapter lmao
And while an amount of ambiguity may have been intended by Tori/Toyo in regards to the wish, I'd also say that it at least doesn't take so much reading comprehension (unless one went into the chapter with a certain idea/frame of mind) to figure that Bardock didn't make/wasn't the one making the wish or that Monaito never explicitly granted Bardock's wistful "wish". Plus complaining that there wasn't really a clear "do this to win" answer to beat Gas, which is probably the point that'll be dwelled on/fleshed out further in the next or later chapter(s).
Miracles wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 3:24 pm I really hope Toyotaro understands; as Gas travels closer to the Cearlian's planet, he should be able to Instantaneous Movement to Goku and Vegeta, to speed up the pace here.
He could, though it was established to a point that Gas isn't as well versed with IT as Goku, so I could see him just flying the whole way and landing down on Cereal with a crash.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Sun May 01, 2022 7:11 pm

I think you are all fake fans for choosing the manga over the anime. :?

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