The Other Multiverse.

[Grimlock]

So, to give more thought and perspective into what I said here:

Dragon Ball having two Multiverses, but one that doesn't follow all these "rules" that govern its "sibling", may mean that those six Universes could be where the movies, OVAs and Dragon Ball GT took place. Toriyama's line about them would be "rectified" and instead of those works taking place in another dimension, they would happen in the very same dimension as the "main series", only in a different Universe (and Multiverse too, in this case).

This was an idea that popped up into people's mind when Beerus said that there were other Universes in Movie 14, only for it to be completely thrown out of the window once we learned that there are other kinds of races in those Universes a couple of years after that. Now we have another opportunity for this to be a thing.

It would mean that Dragon Ball would also feature the "Western version" of the Multiverse concept, with counterparts of the characters (or "variants", as Marvel popularized such term), both concepts coexisting with one another, albeit separated.

Would you like for this to be a thing? Or would you prefer for those six Universes to follow the already established "rule" and having their own races, also sharing the "twin Universes" thing? Maybe even join the existing ones (although I have no idea how they would rework the numbers and everything else).

I don't think Toriyama or Toyotaro seem to understand the implications of #17's wish.

All the more reason for them to find their own Kevin Feige, then.

At least, it doesn't seem it was intentional, as they've yet to show any interest in following that up. They don't even seem interested in the multiverse in general. Just Earth, and occasionally other planets in the same universe.

Hopefully they do get an interest in this eventually. It's a really good subject to work with and expand on. We can't use and be stuck with tournaments while using Multiverse just as a "background", right?

[Thani]

I think these other worlds work better as different timelines, which the Dragon World already has. In this regard, it already have two Multiverses (a physical multiverse with multiple universes completely unrelated to one another and the timelines, all of which contain variants of the physical multiverse).

[ZeroNeonix]

My thought is that the multiverse originally had triplet universes, rather than twins. The first two add to 13, but another number tells you which is the third. As for one of them being the GT universe, it makes more sense for that to be an alternate timeline rather than one of the deleted (possibly now revived) universes. We probably have another universe with Saiyans, another version of Earth (assuming they didn't blow themselves up), but they would have their own characters. Considering Vegeta still hasn't visited Sadala with Cabba, I wouldn't hold my breath for seeing anything from this hypothetical triplet universe.

[Grimlock]

I think these other worlds work better as different timelines, which the Dragon World already has. In this regard, it already have two Multiverses (a physical multiverse with multiple universes completely unrelated to one another and the timelines, all of which contain variants of the physical multiverse).

"Timeline" is a generic and broad term that already applies to what you say. That, however, wouldn't be enough to assess the situation.

If I understood you correctly, you are saying Dragon Ball already has multiple Multiverses thanks to having multiple timelines (present Multiverse, future Multiverse, i.e. the Multiverse from Trunks timeline, etc), am I right? If that's the case, then this isn't what this is about. You can't have access/go to Dragon Ball GT and the movies dimension by time traveling. I know this might seem confusing, but there's a difference between "be from another dimension", "be from another Universe", "be from another timeline generated by time travel".

The counterparts you mention are solely products of time travel, that means they don't differ much from each other, the Goku from Trunks timeline didn't know about or faced the movie villains just like present Goku. That's because these Gokus live in the very same dimension, albeit in a different timeline. They even occupy the very same space, "time" is the one thing that sets them apart.

As for one of them being the GT universe, it makes more sense for that to be an alternate timeline rather than one of the deleted (possibly now revived) universes.

Why is that? We know Cooler appears in Dragon Ball GT, that would make me assume the series takes place in the same dimension where the movies occur (Dragon Ball Heroes seemingly supports this, as Xeno Goku also acknowledges them). Not only that, Vegeta didn't need to learn fusion and we know Movie 1 didn't happen here, so the only other place Vegeta had to learn how to fuse was in Movie 12.

[Thani]

I know, but that's the thing. U6 has a vastly different history, to the point that neither Goku nor Vegeta exists there. The other universes may not even have saiyans, for all we know.

Which is why GT works better as an alternate timeline - one where the movie characters "exists", Goku experienced all of that, never faced Beerus and discovered SS4 instead of SSG.

[theherodjl]

IMO, the multiverse is the way that it is because Toribot simply doesn't want to shoehorn the various movies, GT, video games, and other spinoffs into his creation and so, they're regulated to an "alternate dimension" to his universes. It is similar to DC's Elseworld stories in that that while the stories are recognized as featuring DB characters and progress in a manner alike to how Toriyama might write them, they're ultimately unrelated tales within self-contained continuities and do not impact Toriyama's vision.
I don't think we can get a much better explanation than that given Toriyama's care(or lack thereof) for his own lore.

[Grimlock]

I know, but that's the thing. U6 has a vastly different history, to the point that neither Goku nor Vegeta exists there. The other universes may not even have saiyans, for all we know.

Which is why GT works better as an alternate timeline - one where the movie characters "exists", Goku experienced all of that, never faced Beerus and discovered SS4 instead of SSG.

That's exactly my point. Because we learned that there are no counterparts in the other eleven Universes, there might be counterparts in one of those six Universes that Zeno erased at some point in the past. The "alternate timeline" you're referring is the "other Multiverse" I'm speaking of.

IMO, the multiverse is the way that it is because Toribot simply doesn't want to shoehorn the various movies, GT, video games, and other spinoffs into his creation and so, they're regulated to an "alternate dimension" to his universes. It is similar to DC's Elseworld stories in that that while the stories are recognized as featuring DB characters and progress in a manner alike to how Toriyama might write them, they're ultimately unrelated tales within self-contained continuities and do not impact Toriyama's vision.
I don't think we can get a much better explanation than that given Toriyama's care(or lack thereof) for his own lore.

But being regulated to alternate dimension is another way to "shoehorn" those works into his creation. All that is required now for them to play an active role is an America Chavez or Doctor Strange and their portals. And we already have those in Fu, Goku Black, most likely Janemba (and maybe even angels could do that?).

If anything, that location Gogeta and Broly went to during their fight could also serve as a gateway to another dimension.

[theherodjl]

But being regulated to alternate dimension is another way to "shoehorn" those works into his creation. All that is required now for them to play an active role is an America Chavez or Doctor Strange and their portals. And we already have those in Fu, Goku Black, most likely Janemba (and maybe even angels could do that?).

If anything, that location Gogeta and Broly went to during their fight could also serve as a gateway to another dimension.

It could be another way...but it's not Toriyama's way. An alternate dimension by his book seems to be a place that cannot crossover to his work as he probably doesn't want to bother learning and implementing additional lore & history of stuff that he, for the most part, didn't create. Every now and then, he'll do a DB Minus or a Jaco The Galactic Patrolman as spinoffs that eventually carry over into his main story but he doesn't seem too keen on putting elements from SDBH into DBS anytime soon. Toriyama just doesn't seem to be the "expanded universe" kind of guy, his own take is more like what Disney did to Star Wars regarding canon.
With DB Evolution being a possible universe that could be in the mythos, I can't blame him for not wanting to go bigger.

[Trouser]

I always wanted something like that. I don't know if it should work as a "different multiverse" or "different timelines" but I'd love to see some variants of our characters in the "main" continuity.

I think the best way for it is something like ToP but on a whole bigger scale with different timelines like Dragon Ball Multiverse. GT universe/timeline, Movie universe/timeline and totally different What-If/Xeno universe/timeline that we haven't seen yet, like the universe where Tullece won, where Baby succesfully defeated Goku and his new Tuffle race thrived, where Goku Black won and settled down totally alone and realised that he was wrong, etc.
You know, something like specials in Dragon Ball Multiverse, but done better (those DBM specials are... ugh). This could give fans content for years and like Toyotarou, other artists could be granted the opportuinity to create official "canon" stuff. Not to mention that it's easy money for the authors.

Look at the Yamcha spin-off, it was loved by the majority of the fandom (it wasn't "different universe/timeline" but it's kind of a what-if Yamcha trained like hell). This is the best future for modern Dragon Ball who steals "non-canon" concepts anyway. And instead of creating inferior versions of beloved "non-canon" characters, we would get to see stories with their slightly different variants.

I think this is better than the actual formula of creating characters who got powers in the lamest way possible (Granolah) to be a "worthy" opponent for Goku.

[lordsigma]

There are basically two universes the way I see it:

the original former universe being the original manga or alternatively the one presented in the original broadcast anime run in the 80s/90s with DB/DBZ/DBGT. It’s tough to reconcile the last chapters of the manga and the last episodes of the Z anime with all the new material.

The second is the current anime and manga universe where you basically have the Kai version of DBZ and Super. (Or the original manga minus the last chapters leading into the super manga.)

Each movie is kind of its own offshoot continuity.

[WittyUsername]

You guys really want Dragon Ball to have it’s own Crisis on Infinite Earths, don’t you?

[lordsigma]

As a follow up I do realize that officially the Super material (plus BoG/RoF) was supposed to take place between the end of the Majin Buu arc and the "End of Z" tournament but with everything they've now done it just seems hard to buy that eventually it's heading to that. I think they'd be better off just retconning and saying in this current iteration of Dragon Ball that never happens or just conveniently forget about it and not tie themselves down to that original conclusion. Dragon Ball has always had its plot holes and not just in non manga material. The DB / DBZ movies offer all sorts of one off what ifs at various points of the story so this can just be a more developed "what if" and if we as fans or the creators want to call this version the canon version so be it, but there's no real way to stuff all the various material that's been produced over the years into one universe or canon unless you do some crazy multi-verse/time travel related thing to explain the various differences. A multiverse story might be a fun way to do that.

[Grimlock]

An alternate dimension by his book seems to be a place that cannot crossover to his work as he probably doesn't want to bother learning and implementing additional lore & history of stuff that he, for the most part, didn't create. (...) he doesn't seem too keen on putting elements from SDBH into DBS anytime soon. Toriyama just doesn't seem to be the "expanded universe" kind of guy, his own take is more like what Disney did to Star Wars regarding canon.

By "Toribot" you mention and the fact that this thread is in the "in-universe" discussion, I wasn't really commenting from an out-universe perspective. I'm aware that this is not something Toriyama seemingly wants to do, which is one of the reasons either he should get out of the way and let someone else do it or he should start wanting to do it himself, lest we be stuck with tournaments and self-contained "stories" one after the other that fail to cause any impact, consequence and/or change in status quo, i.e boring stuff all the time.

Dealing with Multiverse this way is hardly an "SDBH element", but it's too bad Toriyama isn't that kind of guy. The series needs to find that kind of guy, though.

With DB Evolution being a possible universe that could be in the mythos, I can't blame him for not wanting to go bigger.

I certainly can. Godzilla franchise acknowledged the 1998 movie despite everything, albeit it was only for them to kill him as if he was nothing, but still. A lot can be done with Dragon Ball Evolution, even if it is just for the "laughs".

I don't know if it should work as a "different multiverse" or "different timelines" but I'd love to see some variants of our characters in the "main" continuity.

It's the only other way. Either the movies and Dragon Ball GT exist in one of those six Universes that Zeno erased, or they will continue to exist in an alternate dimension. Other than those two methods, I see no other way for them to deal with this.

There are basically two universes the way I see it:

the original former universe being the original manga or alternatively the one presented in the original broadcast anime run in the 80s/90s with DB/DBZ/DBGT. It’s tough to reconcile the last chapters of the manga and the last episodes of the Z anime with all the new material.

The second is the current anime and manga universe where you basically have the Kai version of DBZ and Super. (Or the original manga minus the last chapters leading into the super manga.)

Each movie is kind of its own offshoot continuity.

The way you see it is definitely one I have never seen anyone or anything using it. That is not to say you can't think that way, but that's not quite how Multiverse works.

You guys really want Dragon Ball to have it’s own Crisis on Infinite Earths, don’t you?

Anything to make things more interesting. Not that we are aiming for that. This thread is, for the time being, without a plot intention.

[lordsigma]

The way you see it is definitely one I have never seen anyone or anything using it. That is not to say you can't think that way, but that's not quite how Multiverse works.

Don’t see why it’s that crazy especially with the anime. The original anime as presented starting in 1986 with Dragon Ball and ending in 1997 with GT is considered by most to no longer be canon (or at least portions of it). I suppose you can simply just say certain episodes or scenes aren’t canon because they are filler or whatever but they are still part of that series part of that specific adaptation of the story. I suppose we could call what I’m getting at the Dragon Ball GT universe that several previous posts have mentioned. (The GT universe being exactly how the anime was presented back then including the filler episodes.) The Kai version of Z kind of cleans things up to be more consistent with the manga and is a more suitable lead in to Super. (Call that the current universe) I guess at the end of the day - I don’t really try to mesh the original anime with the newer material because so many franchises have had reboots, retcons, etc why worry about it? I realize that itself isn’t really what the multiverse is. At the end of the day a multiverse story line with characters from different previous adaptations of the story is a fun idea. I don’t think what I’m saying or proposing is all that different than what others have said I guess I’m just phrasing it a different way.