The Real Meaning Behind Dragon Ball's Ending

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The Real Meaning Behind Dragon Ball's Ending

Post by Izanagi » Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:57 am

I'm going to ask of you people to not take GT into consideration, as I am going to try and explain what I think Toriyama, not Toei, wanted to prove at the END. The true reason behind Oob's creation is always overlooked by most people in the Dragon Ball fanbase, and the main reason for this is, I believe, the gigantic popularity of Vegeta.

Let me explain myself: I consider Majin Boo to be one of the best (and most worthy) villians in Dragon Ball history, why? Simple, not Vegeta, not Freeza and not Cell, he is the one who impacted Goku so much. That he, for the very first time (in a series revolving around seven magical orbs that could grant any wish) proclaimed a wish of his own: to have Majin Boo reincarnate as a good guy so they could fight again. In Z's climax, Vegeta admitted Goku was a better fighter and a better man he could ever be (another scene most Vegeta fans tend to “forget”), not because Goku was stronger (at the time), but because he finally realized that he was seeking strength for all the wrong reasons (pride, envy, stubbornness, his superiority complex, etc., etc.) and despite him trying to follow Goku's example (IE; sacrificing himself to protect his loved ones), Vegeta accepted that Goku's true strength came from wanting to protect others, in addition to wishing to always challenging himself, regardless of how outmatched he may be, a positive value Muten Roshi instilled in him. Which is why Goku always says he's a Saiyan from Earth or an Earthling. Sure, he KNOWS he's a Saiyan by blood, but that doesn't mean he's a Saiyan at heart.

Keep in mind, when Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball back in the 90s, he NEVER tried to portray Vegeta's "Saiyan Pride" or whatever as a positive quality, unlike Toei or Toyotaro. In fact, Vegeta has admitted during the final battle against Majin Boo that the whole 'Saiyan Pride' spiel is just a coping mechanism for his inability to accept his inferiority to Goku, both as a warrior and as a man. It wasn't Vegeta saying “Oh, OK, you're stronger than me for now, but someday, I'll surpass you!” like Toei or Toyotaro interpreted, no, it was Vegeta admitting that, in the end, being the best, rather being a hero, was deeper than simply being the strongest. Which made that whole scene easily Vegeta's best showing, since the Freeza arc.

And when Vegeta finally admitted Goku was superior than him, this was it. This is what Toriyama wanted to prove (and this is what's going to hurt Vegeta fans, but please try to be impartial), Vegeta was no longer up to the task of being Goku's rival, so he NEEDED a new rival, someone who pushed him to never feel content with his current power. I ask you, what's the name of Z's final episode? Answer: “Goku’s Dream.”

Finally, I will say this is the reason why I dislike GT and I don't vibe with Super so much, they were made by people who didn't understand (or didn't gave a fuck) the meaning behind Z's ending. This is reflected in the fact that they tried to “revive” Vegeta back into the spotlight, giving him the exact same powers as Goku has and having him again as Goku's rival (completely killing Z's ending's meaning, and Vegeta's iconic “I FINALLY admit you're better than me Kakarot” speech).

I know it was long, but I felt I had to take it out of my chest.

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Re: The Real Meaning Behind Dragon Ball's Ending

Post by capsulecorp » Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:39 pm

Facts. I'd never considered Oob as a replacement for Vegeta but I think you're right.

It's also worth noting that he represents a development for Goku as well, since he's not really a rival YET. Oob is strong but he's mostly notable for his potential. Goku goes out of his way to take him as a student, stepping into the role that Roshi and King Kai and others have played for him. You could argue this is a selfish act, since Goku is hoping to develop Oob into a rival, but it demonstrates some long term thinking and generosity that, to me, feels more mature than the Goku we've seen beforehand.

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Re: The Real Meaning Behind Dragon Ball's Ending

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:35 pm

Talking about Dragon Ball's ending, the very last panel of the manga is Vegeta saying he was going to surpass Goku one day. Vegeta never stopped considering himself Goku's rival, he's just taking it as sport now instead of an obsession.

I'm not sure if Oob should be considered a rival, a student or both. We know nothing about him and very little about what Goku wants with him. Sure, he wants a rematch, but when he finds out Oob can't control his power Goku leaves saying he'll train Oob to become his successor. In the anime Vegeta also says the Tenkaichi Budokai isn't a proper place for all out fights, so I doubt Goku was expecting to get his true rematch there regardless of how experienced Oob was.
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Re: The Real Meaning Behind Dragon Ball's Ending

Post by capsulecorp » Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:05 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:35 pm Talking about Dragon Ball's ending, the very last panel of the manga is Vegeta saying he was going to surpass Goku one day. Vegeta never stopped considering himself Goku's rival, he's just taking it as sport now instead of an obsession.
I read that panel as much as an admission of his current inferiority as it is a sincere belief that he'll someday surpass Goku. It represents a significant change in Vegeta's psychology, the ability to stop with the phony blustering and admit something that's been obviously true for years.

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Re: The Real Meaning Behind Dragon Ball's Ending

Post by Saiya6Cit » Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:19 pm

his inability to accept his inferiority to Goku, both as a warrior and as a man.
excuse you? Vegeta is not inferior, it is similar, like generic and brand medicine or pepsi and coke, they are the same thing, they do the same thing they just come in a different look.

If vegeta and goku were not equivalent, they could not fusion.

Vegeta was no longer up to the task of being Goku's rival, so he NEEDED a new rival, someone who pushed him to never feel content with his current power. I ask you, what's the name of Z's final episode? Answer: “Goku’s Dream.”
That happened since Cell Saga, Goku said he was "attracting bad guys to earth" because of him and and it was better if was in another realm which is why he remained dead so he would fight warriors from other worlds and train with other sensei. It is true Vegeta prefferS to train on his own, it just means their fighthing styles are different it does not mean one is better than the other.

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Re: The Real Meaning Behind Dragon Ball's Ending

Post by Jack Bz » Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:08 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:35 pm Talking about Dragon Ball's ending, the very last panel of the manga is Vegeta saying he was going to surpass Goku one day. Vegeta never stopped considering himself Goku's rival, he's just taking it as sport now instead of an obsession.
This was an alternative ending/additional panel that was added in the Kanzenban edition years after the original Dragon Ball concluded, so I think the OP's analysis is still solid here. Toriyama clearly changed his mind about Vegeta later on.

That's the one aspect where I disagree with OP. You can't just blame Vegeta's now extremely prominent character status as being the fault of TOEI/Toyotaro. Toriyama definitely decided himself to use Vegeta in this way. I think it's somewhat fitting that Vegeta wasn't able to consistently keep up with Goku until this revelation.
Saiya6Cit wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:19 pm
Vegeta is not inferior, it is similar, like generic and brand medicine or pepsi and coke, they are the same thing, they do the same thing they just come in a different look.

If vegeta and goku were not equivalent, they could not fusion.
To have his opinion you'd have to blatantly ignore everything about Vegeta's speech where he admits Goku is better than him.

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Re: The Real Meaning Behind Dragon Ball's Ending

Post by Majin Man 101 » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:06 am

Izanagi wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:57 am I'm going to ask of you people to not take GT into consideration, as I am going to try and explain what I think Toriyama, not Toei, wanted to prove at the END. The true reason behind Oob's creation is always overlooked by most people in the Dragon Ball fanbase, and the main reason for this is, I believe, the gigantic popularity of Vegeta.

Let me explain myself: I consider Majin Boo to be one of the best (and most worthy) villians in Dragon Ball history, why? Simple, not Vegeta, not Freeza and not Cell, he is the one who impacted Goku so much. That he, for the very first time (in a series revolving around seven magical orbs that could grant any wish) proclaimed a wish of his own: to have Majin Boo reincarnate as a good guy so they could fight again. In Z's climax, Vegeta admitted Goku was a better fighter and a better man he could ever be (another scene most Vegeta fans tend to “forget”), not because Goku was stronger (at the time), but because he finally realized that he was seeking strength for all the wrong reasons (pride, envy, stubbornness, his superiority complex, etc., etc.) and despite him trying to follow Goku's example (IE; sacrificing himself to protect his loved ones), Vegeta accepted that Goku's true strength came from wanting to protect others, in addition to wishing to always challenging himself, regardless of how outmatched he may be, a positive value Muten Roshi instilled in him. Which is why Goku always says he's a Saiyan from Earth or an Earthling. Sure, he KNOWS he's a Saiyan by blood, but that doesn't mean he's a Saiyan at heart.

Keep in mind, when Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball back in the 90s, he NEVER tried to portray Vegeta's "Saiyan Pride" or whatever as a positive quality, unlike Toei or Toyotaro. In fact, Vegeta has admitted during the final battle against Majin Boo that the whole 'Saiyan Pride' spiel is just a coping mechanism for his inability to accept his inferiority to Goku, both as a warrior and as a man. It wasn't Vegeta saying “Oh, OK, you're stronger than me for now, but someday, I'll surpass you!” like Toei or Toyotaro interpreted, no, it was Vegeta admitting that, in the end, being the best, rather being a hero, was deeper than simply being the strongest. Which made that whole scene easily Vegeta's best showing, since the Freeza arc.

And when Vegeta finally admitted Goku was superior than him, this was it. This is what Toriyama wanted to prove (and this is what's going to hurt Vegeta fans, but please try to be impartial), Vegeta was no longer up to the task of being Goku's rival, so he NEEDED a new rival, someone who pushed him to never feel content with his current power. I ask you, what's the name of Z's final episode? Answer: “Goku’s Dream.”

Finally, I will say this is the reason why I dislike GT and I don't vibe with Super so much, they were made by people who didn't understand (or didn't gave a fuck) the meaning behind Z's ending. This is reflected in the fact that they tried to “revive” Vegeta back into the spotlight, giving him the exact same powers as Goku has and having him again as Goku's rival (completely killing Z's ending's meaning, and Vegeta's iconic “I FINALLY admit you're better than me Kakarot” speech).

I know it was long, but I felt I had to take it out of my chest.
I always perceived the ending of Toriyama’s Dragon Ball, as Goku finally become the master of martial arts, unrivaled by anyone else in the entire universe, naturally picking Oob as a pupil as The turtle hermit did for him all those years ago.

I always get knocked down for saying this because I am told that the point of Dragon Ball is Goku always striving to get stronger all the time and that there can never be an endgame to his desire for combat.

However, I think that this mindset ignores the fact that the series had a definitive ending where Goku flew off with a pupil, followed by THE END.
Goku beating Majin Boo, the most powerful being in the history of the universe is proof enough for me to stand by my theory.

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Re: The Real Meaning Behind Dragon Ball's Ending

Post by Majin Man 101 » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:06 am

Izanagi wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:57 am I'm going to ask of you people to not take GT into consideration, as I am going to try and explain what I think Toriyama, not Toei, wanted to prove at the END. The true reason behind Oob's creation is always overlooked by most people in the Dragon Ball fanbase, and the main reason for this is, I believe, the gigantic popularity of Vegeta.

Let me explain myself: I consider Majin Boo to be one of the best (and most worthy) villians in Dragon Ball history, why? Simple, not Vegeta, not Freeza and not Cell, he is the one who impacted Goku so much. That he, for the very first time (in a series revolving around seven magical orbs that could grant any wish) proclaimed a wish of his own: to have Majin Boo reincarnate as a good guy so they could fight again. In Z's climax, Vegeta admitted Goku was a better fighter and a better man he could ever be (another scene most Vegeta fans tend to “forget”), not because Goku was stronger (at the time), but because he finally realized that he was seeking strength for all the wrong reasons (pride, envy, stubbornness, his superiority complex, etc., etc.) and despite him trying to follow Goku's example (IE; sacrificing himself to protect his loved ones), Vegeta accepted that Goku's true strength came from wanting to protect others, in addition to wishing to always challenging himself, regardless of how outmatched he may be, a positive value Muten Roshi instilled in him. Which is why Goku always says he's a Saiyan from Earth or an Earthling. Sure, he KNOWS he's a Saiyan by blood, but that doesn't mean he's a Saiyan at heart.

Keep in mind, when Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball back in the 90s, he NEVER tried to portray Vegeta's "Saiyan Pride" or whatever as a positive quality, unlike Toei or Toyotaro. In fact, Vegeta has admitted during the final battle against Majin Boo that the whole 'Saiyan Pride' spiel is just a coping mechanism for his inability to accept his inferiority to Goku, both as a warrior and as a man. It wasn't Vegeta saying “Oh, OK, you're stronger than me for now, but someday, I'll surpass you!” like Toei or Toyotaro interpreted, no, it was Vegeta admitting that, in the end, being the best, rather being a hero, was deeper than simply being the strongest. Which made that whole scene easily Vegeta's best showing, since the Freeza arc.

And when Vegeta finally admitted Goku was superior than him, this was it. This is what Toriyama wanted to prove (and this is what's going to hurt Vegeta fans, but please try to be impartial), Vegeta was no longer up to the task of being Goku's rival, so he NEEDED a new rival, someone who pushed him to never feel content with his current power. I ask you, what's the name of Z's final episode? Answer: “Goku’s Dream.”

Finally, I will say this is the reason why I dislike GT and I don't vibe with Super so much, they were made by people who didn't understand (or didn't gave a fuck) the meaning behind Z's ending. This is reflected in the fact that they tried to “revive” Vegeta back into the spotlight, giving him the exact same powers as Goku has and having him again as Goku's rival (completely killing Z's ending's meaning, and Vegeta's iconic “I FINALLY admit you're better than me Kakarot” speech).

I know it was long, but I felt I had to take it out of my chest.
I always perceived the ending of Toriyama’s Dragon Ball, as Goku finally become the master of martial arts, unrivaled by anyone else in the entire universe, naturally picking Oob as a pupil as The turtle hermit did for him all those years ago.

I always get knocked down for saying this because I am told that the point of Dragon Ball is Goku always striving to get stronger all the time and that there can never be an endgame to his desire for combat.

However, I think that this mindset ignores the fact that the series had a definitive ending where Goku flew off with a pupil, followed by THE END.
Goku beating Majin Boo, the most powerful being in the history of the universe is proof enough for me to stand by my theory.

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Re: The Real Meaning Behind Dragon Ball's Ending

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:21 am

Great analysis, Izanagi .

It's just a shame that it's rendered almost entirely pointless by one panel:
Vegeta: "Sooner or later, Kakarrot, I will show you defeat… Hmph!"

That one line pretty much kills the idea of Vegeta being content about being inferior to Goku. He still wants to become as stronger or possibly stronger than him and defeat him.

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Re: The Real Meaning Behind Dragon Ball's Ending

Post by Ashur » Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:17 am

Fantastic analysis, i agree that both GT and Super dropped the ball, especially in GT's case with how useless and unimportant Uub is, and Super by making Goku and Vegeta the go-to rivarly, with Vegeta obsessed with surpassing Goku completely misunderstanding the original intent of the moment.

I haven't thought about the part about Goku's dream, it should be noted that, while the series is called Dragon Ball, and revolves around magical objects that can grant any wish, the protagonist never used those balls to fulfill his own dreams and desires, he always used the Dragon Balls for other people, or were used for convenience, never to fulfill his dreams, so it is only fitting that in the end of the series Goku gets his own "wish", while he had started this journey as merely muscle for Bulma's wishes, with only a passing interest in seeing the Dragon, over time he started to develop a wish of his own, which was granted thanks to the Dragon Balls allowing him to defeat Buu, transforming him into Uub, the representation of the universe's reward to Goku for all that he has done.

The more i think about it, the more brilliant Dragon Ball's ending is, too bad it doesn't get enough credit.
Lord Beerus wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:21 am Great analysis, Izanagi .

It's just a shame that it's rendered almost entirely pointless by one panel:
Vegeta: "Sooner or later, Kakarrot, I will show you defeat… Hmph!"

That one line pretty much kills the idea of Vegeta being content about being inferior to Goku. He still wants to become as stronger or possibly stronger than him and defeat him.
Sure, but that is only in the 2000's kanzenban release, last number released in 2007, which is over a decade after the original ending, meaning that Toriyama was obviously out of touch with the series, especially given how forgetful Toriyama is about things, i feel like, when making this epilogue panel (which was made to replace the original "goodbye" note for the serialization) Toriyama went "What was Vegeta's character again? oh right, he wants to surpass Goku, that's his whole shtick" so he stayed with that basic characterization from there on, hence why Vegeta's modern characterization is the way it is.

We should also consider that his view might have been influenced by how all the other media around Vegeta was potraying him, which was "Goku's rival" as even GT went in that direction somewhat (albeit much more gracefully than what modern material did).

So that one panel doesn't render anything pointless, because it doesn't speak for the intent behind the original ending back when it was written in 1995.

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Re: The Real Meaning Behind Dragon Ball's Ending

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:40 am

Ashur wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:17 amSure, but that is only in the 2000's kanzenban release, last number released in 2007, which is over a decade after the original ending, meaning that Toriyama was obviously out of touch with the series, especially given how forgetful Toriyama is about things, i feel like, when making this epilogue panel (which was made to replace the original "goodbye" note for the serialization) Toriyama went "What was Vegeta's character again? oh right, he wants to surpass Goku, that's his whole shtick" so he stayed with that basic characterization from there on, hence why Vegeta's modern characterization is the way it is.

We should also consider that his view might have been influenced by how all the other media around Vegeta was potraying him, which was "Goku's rival" as even GT went in that direction somewhat (albeit much more gracefully than what modern material did).

So that one panel doesn't render anything pointless, because it doesn't speak for the intent behind the original ending back when it was written in 1995.
How Toriyama originally intended to end Dragon Ball is very important to consider, but it's just as important to make note of any changes Toriyama wishes to make to his original story. And for whatever reason, Toriyama provided a revised ending that had Vegeta reaffirm his desire to defeat Goku (and by proxy catch up to him and/or surpass him in strength). It may have seemed a bit arbitrary for Toryama to do this nearly a decade after he completed the story, but for whatever reason, Toriyama felt compelled to give that extra tidbit in what was basically the epilogue for Dragon Ball's grand narrative.

You can't hold it against someone if they place that ending in the same echelon of contextual meaning as the original ending before it where Vegeta doesn't have that dialogue. It's an ending that has just as much value and merit in its storytelling because it's ultimately coming from the original author's pen/pencil. This isn't something like Dragon Ball Minus, Battle Of Gods, Resurrection F or Dragon Ball Super where you have the liberty to ignore those stories given their very superficial ties to the original story. This is an original publication of the manga having a re-written ending and being resold as part of a legitimate complete edition of Toriyama's manga (twice).

I wouldn't brush aside the Kanzenban ending under the pretence of what basically boils down to, "it didn't happen first". Toriyama's vision of Dragon Ball, and its characters, can subtly change over time. There may be certain aspects of the manga that he would have wanted to be handled differently. And for whatever reason, when the manga was being re-released in 2002 in Japan, he used that opportunity to provide an extended and re-written ending. I'm not saying that this is by default the new or official ending of the manga. But the ending exists as a slight re-imaging of how Toriyama wanted to end Dragon Ball. And he chose to end it with the character moment of Vegeta wanting to defeat Goku.

Does that moment exhibit a conflict in character given the development Vegeta goes through in the leading up to the particular moment of him saying that? It's debatable. But we're certainly not at liberty to say that the re-written ending has any less value than the original ending. Opinions and motives can change. Toriyama may be very forgettable, something he has not only acknowledged but embraced, but his stance on how Dragon Ball's story should evolve, or even conclude, isn't, and really shouldn't, be attributed to that forgetful nature of his. Otherwise, we would have seen many more subtle but significant changes in the manga beyond the revised ending when the manga was re-released back in 2002.

I'm sure from Toriyama's perceptive the revised ending is just an ending and not the ending, if you catch my drift. It doesn't hold any more or less merit and significance over how he originally ended the story. Toriyama chose Dragon Ball to have that kind of ending because he wanted the manga to have that kind of ending. We, as fans of Dragon Ball, don't really have the right to say that how the author original concluded his work is definitive and above everything else when the author can easily change any context regarding certain characterizations if personal preferences for their storytelling have shifted. It can happen at any time. You may not agree with that, and you have every right to not agree with it, but this is Toriyama's story to mould and change as he pleases. It may seem reductive in the grand scheme, but Dragon Ball is Toriyama's toy box to play with, not ours.

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Re: The Real Meaning Behind Dragon Ball's Ending

Post by Ashur » Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:27 pm

Lord Beerus wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:40 am
Ashur wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:17 amSure, but that is only in the 2000's kanzenban release, last number released in 2007, which is over a decade after the original ending, meaning that Toriyama was obviously out of touch with the series, especially given how forgetful Toriyama is about things, i feel like, when making this epilogue panel (which was made to replace the original "goodbye" note for the serialization) Toriyama went "What was Vegeta's character again? oh right, he wants to surpass Goku, that's his whole shtick" so he stayed with that basic characterization from there on, hence why Vegeta's modern characterization is the way it is.

We should also consider that his view might have been influenced by how all the other media around Vegeta was potraying him, which was "Goku's rival" as even GT went in that direction somewhat (albeit much more gracefully than what modern material did).

So that one panel doesn't render anything pointless, because it doesn't speak for the intent behind the original ending back when it was written in 1995.
How Toriyama originally intended to end Dragon Ball is very important to consider, but it's just as important to make note of any changes Toriyama wishes to make to his original story. And for whatever reason, Toriyama provided a revised ending that had Vegeta reaffirm his desire to defeat Goku (and by proxy catch up to him and/or surpass him in strength). It may have seemed a bit arbitrary for Toryama to do this nearly a decade after he completed the story, but for whatever reason, Toriyama felt compelled to give that extra tidbit in what was basically the epilogue for Dragon Ball's grand narrative.

You can't hold it against someone if they place that ending in the same echelon of contextual meaning as the original ending before it where Vegeta doesn't have that dialogue. It's an ending that has just as much value and merit in its storytelling because it's ultimately coming from the original author's pen/pencil. This isn't something like Dragon Ball Minus, Battle Of Gods, Resurrection F or Dragon Ball Super where you have the liberty to ignore those stories given their very superficial ties to the original story. This is an original publication of the manga having a re-written ending and being resold as part of a legitimate complete edition of Toriyama's manga (twice).

I wouldn't brush aside the Kanzenban ending under the pretence of what basically boils down to, "it didn't happen first". Toriyama's vision of Dragon Ball, and its characters, can subtly change over time. There may be certain aspects of the manga that he would have wanted to be handled differently. And for whatever reason, when the manga was being re-released in 2002 in Japan, he used that opportunity to provide an extended and re-written ending. I'm not saying that this is by default the new or official ending of the manga. But the ending exists as a slight re-imaging of how Toriyama wanted to end Dragon Ball. And he chose to end it with the character moment of Vegeta wanting to defeat Goku.

Does that moment exhibit a conflict in character given the development Vegeta goes through in the leading up to the particular moment of him saying that? It's debatable. But we're certainly not at liberty to say that the re-written ending has any less value than the original ending. Opinions and motives can change. Toriyama may be very forgettable, something he has not only acknowledged but embraced, but his stance on how Dragon Ball's story should evolve, or even conclude, isn't, and really shouldn't, be attributed to that forgetful nature of his. Otherwise, we would have seen many more subtle but significant changes in the manga beyond the revised ending when the manga was re-released back in 2002.

I'm sure from Toriyama's perceptive the revised ending is just an ending and not the ending, if you catch my drift. It doesn't hold any more or less merit and significance over how he originally ended the story. Toriyama chose Dragon Ball to have that kind of ending because he wanted the manga to have that kind of ending. We, as fans of Dragon Ball, don't really have the right to say that how the author original concluded his work is definitive and above everything else when the author can easily change any context regarding certain characterizations if personal preferences for their storytelling have shifted. It can happen at any time. You may not agree with that, and you have every right to not agree with it, but this is Toriyama's story to mould and change as he pleases. It may seem reductive in the grand scheme, but Dragon Ball is Toriyama's toy box to play with, not ours.
It is true that it is his story, and i never said he was inherently wrong for changing things a decade after the fact nor am i holding it against him for him to make characterization changes per se, the point of why that pannel doesn't "debunk" anything the OP says is precisely because, in this instance, we are talking about the original meaning of the ending, one that was prior to even GT, prior to Super and the Kanzenban, i'm not talking about how i think that ending Toriyama chose to add diminishes Vegeta's story, how i disagree with that take on the character post-Buu, that's a separate matter, i'm talking about how it doesn't have weight on the original intent and narrative of the 1995 ending, which is what the thread is about and is criticizing later material like GT in this light.

My original post wasn't to claim the newer material from the Kanzenban is less valid as the main canon of Dragon Ball (regardless of how i personally feel about them), but that they shouldn't be relevant to the main point being made here, as we are discussing exactly that original intent you say could be changed, so it's not debunking anything regarding the relationship between that original intent and GT screwing it up because the Kanzenban release came out years after GT even, so it can't be based on that, if anything the Kanzenban release only strenghtens the argument that the original intent for the ending was pretty much forgotten and diminished ever since.

As for the point regarding if the change is about Toriyama forgetting about the intention with the number one speech:

For the record the newer ending isn't all bad, i like Goku giving Uub the Kinto'un and the flashback to the younger Goku riding it, but that's exactly the main point Toriyama wanted to get across, the Vegeta panel is just an afterthought, i don't think it's that big of a part in the story, i feel Toriyama put it in to fill the space that was originally meant for the serialization goodbye (given this is a revised ending, that wouldn't fit very well) so he added a goodbye for the second most important character at that point in the story and the general perception of the franchise, which is Vegeta, and so, Toriyama decided to add that line since that is what he remembered about Vegeta's character.

I recognize that it is just a theory of mine, Toriyama could have done that on purpose to set up a hook for a possible sequel like you seem to be suggesting, but i doubt it, given he has expressed no intention of continuing past the end of the original manga, hence why he reversed to the defeat of Buu when he continued the story, which renders Vegeta's tease in that ending pointless, at least up to this point (on top of undercutting any potential for Vegeta actually surpassing Goku in the main story, because this happens later) so i highly doubt Toriyama actually planned out to have Vegeta's scene be a genuine change from "what the character was before" in the original ending to tell us "hey, this is not over yet for Goku vs Vegeta, guys" it's far more likely that he saw it as "ok, so this is how the character is" without remembering that he had changed that about Vegeta's characterization, Toriyama is one to do stuff on the fly, so i buy this much more than a predetermined move, it just seems like the most likely scenario given the circumstances.

It should be noted that it's because of the specifics of the situation that i think it's because of forgetfulness, not because i find it a bad change, there are many other things that Toriyama changed that i consider bad which aren't excused by forgetfulness, like making Potara not permanent for example, i just think that Vegeta's final development during the final chapters of the manga is something minor enough in the face of the overall scope of the manga that it is reasonable that Toriyama forgot about it, especially given that he was suffering a severe burnout when he was writing those chapters originally, it stands to reason he doesn't remember every detail of every character change over a decade later, especially a character he admitted wasn't particularly fond of.

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