Do you like Super?

[Toxin45]

It is what it is

[Hellspawn28]

Super give other characters to shine after people felt like GT was too heavy on Goku and Pan. Vegeta and Piccolo are not being used for plot devices unlike in GT.

I'm curious how were they plot devices in GT? I think the difference between how the other characters were handled was based on when it took place. Super was a midquel so it's before most of the cast retires in EoZ (or retire again if they've come out of retirement temporarily in Super). GT is a sequel so it had to follow where Toriyama left off. The humans and Piccolo basically retired in the Cell saga and the half Saiyans lost interest in training by EoZ. Goku was only interested in challenging Uub implying Vegeta was one step behind again.

Piccolo died so that he can be used as a way to help escape Goku out of Hell. Vegeta was used as a vessal for Baby and was a jobber until he became a Super Saiyan 4. If the other cast were retire after Z like Gohan, Goten, and Vegeta than why is Goku still being used? Won't it make more sense to do a new generation thing instead?

[super michael]

Super give other characters to shine after people felt like GT was too heavy on Goku and Pan. Vegeta and Piccolo are not being used for plot devices unlike in GT.

In GT no character were ever forbidden from fighting and Buu was never asleep at all.
In DBS Anime they loved to show Goten and Trunks, only for everyone to prevent them from training, fighting and fighting villains. Why would Toei think that fans would like that? Fans wants to see their favorite character fight, not being treated like babies.

As for Buu in DBS all he does is sleep, except for the exhibition and recruiting episode.

[Hellspawn28]

In DBS Anime they loved to show Goten and Trunks, only for everyone to prevent them from training, fighting and fighting villains. Why would Toei think that fans would like that? Fans wants to see their favorite character fight, not being treated like babies.

The ROF and TOP arc give the human characters to shine. Roshi got to fight again since DBZ Movie 2 which was super cool. Super Hero had Gohan and Piccolo a bigger role to shine too. Super also doesn't have Goku always winning since he lost to Beerus, Hit, Gas, and Black Freeza. In GT, almost every villain is killed by Goku. Super doesn't have the ABC logic of "Character A is stronger than Character B. Goku defeats them by the end of the day".

In GT no character were ever forbidden from fighting

Goku told Goten and Trunks not to fuse against Oozaru Baby Vegeta, and even told Gohan to stay behind when he was going to fight the Shadow Dragons.

[MasenkoHA]

In GT no character were ever forbidden from fighting and Buu was never asleep at all.

Pan was forbidden from flying off into space and Goten and Trunks didn't care about fighting and were also older than they were in Super.

[Cipher]

I’m not really sure what you mean by "optional".

No one would be missing anything for stopping with the end of the original Dragon Ball, and it doesn’t make the story feel more complete, which is kind of the holy grail for a sequel, I feel.

It is still, however, fun.

[Skar]

Piccolo died so that he can be used as a way to help escape Goku out of Hell. Vegeta was used as a vessal for Baby and was a jobber until he became a Super Saiyan 4.

Ah ok. To be honest I didn't remember what Piccolo did in GT other than dying to stop the Blackstar Dragonballs. I always thought that was unnecessary since shouldn't it be within his power as the creator to just deactivate them? I definitely think they should've left the story alone at EoZ though. I'm just saying I don't think it's a point against GT for leaving the side characters where Toriyama last had them.

A lot of concepts that Super has been praised for was kinda standard fan service in most sequel fan comics like humans coming out of retirement, Piccolo getting a new form or powerup, Goku and Vegeta being about equal. It's fun to see which is the purpose of fan service but not exactly that innovative. I think the only difference in execution is that these stories are sequels so it's meant to stick in their continuties while Super is a midquel so it'll most likely revert to the Buu saga and EoZ status quo by the end.

If the other cast were retire after Z like Gohan, Goten, and Vegeta than why is Goku still being used? Won't it make more sense to do a new generation thing instead?

Well the only next generation would be Pan and Uub. I recall Toei saying in the interview Goku was the main character so they had to focus on him. I'm not sure how much involvement Toriyama had in DBO but the next generation didn't do much there either before a major timeskip like in GT.

[super michael]

In DBS Anime they loved to show Goten and Trunks, only for everyone to prevent them from training, fighting and fighting villains. Why would Toei think that fans would like that? Fans wants to see their favorite character fight, not being treated like babies.

The ROF and TOP arc give the human characters to shine. Roshi got to fight again since DBZ Movie 2 which was super cool. Super Hero had Gohan and Piccolo a bigger role to shine too. Super also doesn't have Goku always winning since he lost to Beerus, Hit, Gas, and Black Freeza. In GT, almost every villain is killed by Goku. Super doesn't have the ABC logic of "Character A is stronger than Character B. Goku defeats them by the end of the day".

In GT no character were ever forbidden from fighting

Goku told Goten and Trunks not to fuse against Oozaru Baby Vegeta, and even told Gohan to stay behind when he was going to fight the Shadow Dragons.

In ROF there was no rules in how many fighter could join, there was no reason to leave out Goten and Trunks. They are stronger and trained better than the humans. Then they whined about how little fighters they had, when they excluded fighters.
In the TOP Goten and Trunks should have been chosen over the weak humans.
Goten with Whis and Goku training would result in huge power gain, which sadly Chi Chi got in the way and made Bulma get in the way.

As for DBS Super Heroes that was good, we got to see many character shine.

In GT Goku knew only he could defeat Bebi and no one else. That is why he chose to have everyone donate their powers to him.
As for GT Goku and Pan being the only one to fight the Shadow Dragon, that was bad.

Pan was forbidden from flying off into space and Goten and Trunks didn't care about fighting and were also older than they were in Super.

True you are right about Pan, however that was the only time she was forbidden from doing something she wanted to do.
Not being interested in fighting isn't the same thing as not being allowed to train, fight and fight villains.



In GT everyone battled Omega Shenron, except for the humans Z fighters which they retired.

[Koitsukai]

This horse has been beaten to a pulp, so I'll briefly reiterate: the children are cocky, immature and unreliable. That's why nobody wants them present in important situations anymore.

It isn't about power, it's about personalities. They not only endanger themselves due to their behaviour, they endanger the rest of the crew.

They need to grow up before training with angels.

[sunsetshimmer]

Goku told Goten and Trunks not to fuse against Oozaru Baby Vegeta, and even told Gohan to stay behind when he was going to fight the Shadow Dragons.

He didn't let boys fuse against Baby because he knew they would do nothing to him and only waste their energy that had better use in making Goku stronger. I mean we all know Goku is main star in GT, but it's not like it wasn't explained why he didn't want them to fuse. And it wasn't cheap excuse either, at least compared to what Super were doing with them or Buu.

As for Gohan, once again he wanted them to give him all the power instead. Yeah, it's "Goku Time" again, but it makes sense plot wise. He would make much better use of their energy than them attacking Syn Shenron and getting one shotted anyway.

But there was no good reason to not let Buu fight or Goten and Trunks in Super. Look at RoF and ToP arcs. Sure, Roshi and Tenshinan are more experienced, more skilled fighters and are not as careless as Gotenks, but the gap in power is so huge that Gotenks would still be more viable pick than these two.

BUT i agree that when shadow dragons appeared Goku should let others fight them in the first place, especially considering first dragons turned out to not be that powerful and they could easily fight them together or split and let Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Uub handle other dragons on their own.

[Jord]

Let's not pretend like Z wasn't Goku Time as well, with the small exception of the Cell battle. GT at least didn't pretend like the jobbers stood a chance

.
Meanwhile...

-Goku was critical in beating Raditz
-Piccolo, Kuririn, Ten, Yamcha, Gohan and clown boy were jobbers who's job was to stall time to let Goku fight Nappa
-Goku then beats Vegeta

-Namek soon turned into "wait for Goku" so he cam beat the Ginyu squad by himself
-Everyone jobbed to Freeza. Then Goku beats him
-Android/Cell part was a small exception

-Everyone jobbed against Fat Buu. Except SSJ3 Goku
-Then everybody jobbed against Super Buu. Goku came back from the dead, fused and made Super Buu job
-Then Goku is the one who beats Kid Buu while Vegeta tells him how awesoms he is.

[super michael]

This horse has been beaten to a pulp, so I'll briefly reiterate: the children are cocky, immature and unreliable. That's why nobody wants them present in important situations anymore.

It isn't about power, it's about personalities. They not only endanger themselves due to their behaviour, they endanger the rest of the crew.

They need to grow up before training with angels.

Goku wanted to take Goten to Whis planet for training, however his wife didn't allow it. Then Chi Chi had the nerve to get Bulma involved.
In Chi Chi mind only she gets to make decision.

Goku can't even train with Goten himself, that isn't allowed.
Vegeta doesn't allow Goten and Trunks to train with him.



Goku and Vegeta messed up big times, yet they are never forbidden. Bulma she acts all cocky yet nothing happens.

They should lecture them and not forbid them.
This is such a bad reason to forbid them.


Edit remember the whole Cell and Buu got out of hand was thanks to Vegeta helping the enemy. Vegeta helped Cell get his perfect form and Buu getting released. He never gets any consequence.

[Vegard Aune]

-Goku was critical in beating Raditz
-Piccolo, Kuririn, Ten, Yamcha, Gohan and clown boy were jobbers who's job was to stall time to let Goku fight Nappa
-Goku then beats Vegeta

...You know, Vegeta not only defeated Goku in that fight, but he quite literally rendered him 100% crippled. The victory against Vegeta was very much a team win... coupled with a healthy dose of luck considering how ultimately the thing that delivered the finishing blow was... Gohan turning into a monster and then just sorta falling on top of him.

It's really kind of silly how Vegeta spent the entire rest of the series trying to prove himself better than Goku because seriously, Goku may have put up a good fight against him... But Vegeta won. Then Kuririn, Gohan and Yajirobe came in and very, very, very narrowly managed to wear him down to the point where he felt forced to retreat.

...Well, I guess Vegeta's vendetta against him was mostly motivated by Goku managing to become a Super Saiyan before him. On Namek his stance was more "I am going to kill all of those lowlives on Earth for what they did to me."

[super michael]

DBS all they did was trick fans into thinking Goten and Trunks would do anything, when nothing happened. Here are all the examples:

- RoF = Goten and Trunks weren’t allowed to come and help, when they do come Vegeta sends them away. (Manga, Anime, Movie)
- U6 vs U7 = Trunks suggests to join but Vegeta denies with no chance to train. (Anime)
- Goku Racing to pick up vegetables = Goten not allowed. (Anime)
- Goku wanted to spar with someone = Goten not allowed to spar with Goku his own father. (Anime)
- Goten and Trunks wanted to go to the future to help Future Trunks = Not allowed. (Anime)
- Goten wanted to train with Whis = Not allowed. (Anime)
- Goten and Trunks wanted Vegeta to train them = Not allowed. (Anime)
- ToP = they are not allowed to even know about it, see it or even fight in it. (Anime, Manga)
- Moro Invasion = Kept it a secret and somehow didn't sense anyone fighting around the world. (Manga)


Let count them all up:

Movie = 1
Manga = 3
Anime = 8

The anime did it 8 times. Why did Toei have to do it so many times? What was their goal to be funny or to annoy the fans?

Lets not forget Trunks only training partner is the Pilaf Gang, how exactly will Trunks learn any skills or get stronger by training with them? The answer is impossible.
Then in EOZ Vegeta says they got lazy. Well of course anyone would get lazy, seeing how they were treated in DBS.


I am glad DBS Manga and DBS Super Heroes fixed it.


In GT these are the times some characters were forbidden:

Pan wanted to go to into Space, but wasn't allowed. (However she went into space, but lets count it).
Goten and Trunks wanted to fuse, but wasn't allowed to power Goku instead. (It was a good reason, but lets count it).
Gohan wanted to go with Pan and Goku but that wasn't allowed. (There was no good reason, however he did battle against Omega Shenron. I am going to count it).

GT = 3 times for different characters.

[ABED]

-Goku was critical in beating Raditz
-Piccolo, Kuririn, Ten, Yamcha, Gohan and clown boy were jobbers who's job was to stall time to let Goku fight Nappa
-Goku then beats Vegeta

...You know, Vegeta not only defeated Goku in that fight, but he quite literally rendered him 100% crippled. The victory against Vegeta was very much a team win... coupled with a healthy dose of luck considering how ultimately the thing that delivered the finishing blow was... Gohan turning into a monster and then just sorta falling on top of him.

It's really kind of silly how Vegeta spent the entire rest of the series trying to prove himself better than Goku because seriously, Goku may have put up a good fight against him... But Vegeta won. Then Kuririn, Gohan and Yajirobe came in and very, very, very narrowly managed to wear him down to the point where he felt forced to retreat.

...Well, I guess Vegeta's vendetta against him was mostly motivated by Goku managing to become a Super Saiyan before him. On Namek his stance was more "I am going to kill all of those lowlives on Earth for what they did to me."

It's not just Super Saiyan, Goku upended his worldview. Saiyans culture was a caste system. Your strength determined where you were in the social hierarchy and for the longest time, it stayed true that the class you were in was determined when you were an infant bc they could tell how strong you would get. It didn't matter how much you worked, you didn't grow beyond that. Goku may have been bested by Vegeta but he shouldn't have been able to do as well as he did, and Vegeta felt he shouldn't have had to transform to win.

Vegeta tells Goku "I'll show a wall you'll never climb no matter how hard you work." Not only did Goku eventually climb it, he exceeded it.

[sunsetshimmer]

Pan wanted to go to into Space, but wasn't allowed. (However she went into space, but lets count it).

That shouldn't even count tbh. Ship was prepared for 3 people in mind and Vegeta wanted Goten and Trunks to go with Goku. In RoF as you mentioned there was no limit and anyone could join fight. In ToP there was a limit but Goten and Trunks would be better choice than someone like Roshi and Tenshihan. For GT, Pan wasn't the best pick. Gohan wanted to go at first, then Goten and Trunks were meant to go. All of them are better fighters than Pan + leaving little, unexperienced girl in space for whole year isn't a good idea on its own either. There were a lot of reasons to not let Pan go with them.

Meanwhile even in DBS Goten and Trunks both can go SSJ and they can fuse. They knew what they are capable of so they should allow them fight. I mean ToP was only 48 minutes compared to whole year in space and if they lost their universe would be erased anyway so why not bring the strongest team they can rather than worry about little kids? Not to mention there was no killing rule anyway. There was no risk at all.

[MCDaveG]

Interesting point from Super Michael with Goten and Trunks.

I have just rewatched the first half of Buu arc in my retrospective run of watching through the series from DB, that started like 5 years ago
But when Goten and Trunks go to the martial arts tournament, they get excluded for being kids, for comedic purposes and to illustrate how much the world has changed since Goku's youth.
It irks us as viewers and makes it more comedic, as we know that Saiyan kids are equal to adults as shown in Dragon Ball already and nobody had qualms with Goku taking on plethora of lethal enemies, because he could.
Which makes it even weirder in Super. After Goku pushing Goten and Trunks into fight against Buu and Goku usually being a cheerleader for challenging others and pushing them forward, Goten and Trunks stay behind because they are kids! And are treated like that.
Way more than in the Z. Sending them against Buu, but not against Freeza makes no sense, as the first one is pretty much a death sentence and yes a last resort at that time. But what is there to be afraid of, when the whole squad will be there?
It never made much sense to me.

As a kid, of course I was huge fan of the two and through the years, Goten and Trunks went from being vital part of the cast to a comedic relief and even Gotenks, that could've rivaled the SSJ3 Goku if the story wanted so, is just a comedic relief... they were the fun cast since beginning, but at least had some importance in the story.

While this changed in GT, as somebody noted that everyone except for Goku and a bit lacking Vegeta were past their prime at the end of Z and for sure in GT, these two were the ideal ages and I always believed, that they can do more... but Goku took the center stage too much in our faces and pretty much even implied that everyone else is obsolette.
But, if they can take Gohan out of the ashes in Super and make him shine, for who knows how long before he settles back to his scholar job, they can do that with everyone, including these two.
I have no problem with them not winning fights or being vital parts of the boss fights, but I would like for them to not be stale.
I was super excited about their long time overdue visual update for Super Hero, to be letdown fast with fat farting Gotenks... I am missing the snarky, bad jokes cracking Gotenks, that at least holds a bit of a fight before failing. Or if they at least turned SSJ and spammed some ki blasts, with some comedy as expected for them before they fail like the rest and Gohan saves the day.
But I have to hand it over to them that even the most useless failed fusion had some climax input.

I have to stress out again, that I am a huge fan of Adult Gotenks from Heroes Waited for him since GT ended.

While I don't think that everyone has to be on top or the hero of the arc regularly changing, I would welcome more care to be done with secondary cast (everyone besides Goku and Vegeta). It makes the world richer and less stale and boring.
And here Super is clearly winning, even tho Trunks and Goten got the short stick, while the TV version of BOG and ROF was lackluster, the Z movies, Black Arc giving us back Future Trunks and the team up in TOP was a pleasure.
If somebody told me, here or through some leaks from whatever sources, that Piccolo will be back at the top since Cell arc and Gohan will grow stronger from his Buu arc self, I would laugh it off.

[Civic]

Yes I love Super. It expanded the lore so much - multiverses, Gods of Destruction (one I loved, since I always hated that the Supreme Kai, who was supposed to be the highest ranking 'God' of DB at the time, was so weak), all of the Super-era movies (BoG, RoF, Broly, SH), the ToP arc in particular, the new transformations (UI and Orange Piccolo being my favourites) while doing some really great slice of life stuff and fleshing out some really great 'what if' ideas - I personally loved the episode where Future Trunks got to see Adult Gohan's life, and how bittersweet it was to see a version of his master have the happily-ever-after his Gohan never got.

It's done a lot wrong - SSB introduced too early, the Goku Black arc is all over the place (while still being interesting), some transformations and power scaling are lacking backstory/understanding (eg. Trunks' SSJ Rage, a lot of U7's fighters' strengths for the ToP), the retelling of the movies are both worse than the movies themselves, and Buu almost ALWAYS being asleep.

But ultimately while it's flawed, it's brought a lot more good stuff than bad IMO.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Yes I love Super. It expanded the lore so much - multiverses, Gods of Destruction (one I loved, since I always hated that the Supreme Kai, who was supposed to be the highest ranking 'God' of DB at the time, was so weak), all of the Super-era movies (BoG, RoF, Broly, SH), the ToP arc in particular, the new transformations (UI and Orange Piccolo being my favourites) while doing some really great slice of life stuff and fleshing out some really great 'what if' ideas - I personally loved the episode where Future Trunks got to see Adult Gohan's life, and how bittersweet it was to see a version of his master have the happily-ever-after his Gohan never got.

It's done a lot wrong - SSB introduced too early, the Goku Black arc is all over the place (while still being interesting), some transformations and power scaling are lacking backstory/understanding (eg. Trunks' SSJ Rage, a lot of U7's fighters' strengths for the ToP), the retelling of the movies are both worse than the movies themselves, and Buu almost ALWAYS being asleep.

But ultimately while it's flawed, it's brought a lot more good stuff than bad IMO.

This is a very interesting post. I really like it.

[PurestEvil]

It is very hit or miss, but not in an extraordinary way.

The films are by far the best part of this era, with the anime and manga feeling a bit middling to me