People who genuinely argue the humor added in dubs "Improves the show"

[MasenkoHA]

I think that's awesome, when you open your mind the person who stands to benefit the most is yourself. There are aspects of the original Japanese that I like and appreciate but in all honesty it is not my favorite version of the series. Would it have been different if I grew up Japanese and watched it on TV that way? Probably but who are we if not a collection of our experiences?

That's not a universal thing though. Yeah, a lot of people are like that, but not everyone is.

I didn't need to grow up Japanese watching it in Japanese to like the Japanese version more than the English versions when I discovered it.

No, of course it's not universal, I didn't intend to say it was but nostalgia is something that always gets thrown around in these conversations and I personally don't think it can be (or should be) discounted. Without nostalgia for Z I could easily have been be more of a One Piece fan than a Dragon Ball one but all the same not sure I want to hear that from a One Piece fan trying to tell me how much better that franchise is and that I only think Dragon Ball is a good anime due to nostalgia.

I agree with the gist of what you're saying but I think "Funimation or a more competent company should have dubbed Dragon Ball Z correctly" and "nostalgia is a perfectly valid reason for enjoying something" aren't mutually exclusive statements

[Majin Buu]

No, of course it's not universal, I didn't intend to say it was but nostalgia is something that always gets thrown around in these conversations and I personally don't think it can be (or should be) discounted. Without nostalgia for Z I could easily have been be more of a One Piece fan than a Dragon Ball one but all the same not sure I want to hear that from a One Piece fan trying to tell me how much better that franchise is and that I only think Dragon Ball is a good anime due to nostalgia.

Nostalgia is fine as long as it comes with a healthy perspective. I personally make a conscious effort to not put too much value in nostalgia since it often blinds people to the flaws of the product/time period/etc. they're nostalgic for.

I am nostalgic for Dragon Ball, but I'll be the first to admit that it doesn't have the best writing and that other animes have better writing. As for One Piece, I'm also a One Piece fan so I have no problem admitting that Oda does some things better than Toriyama.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

This isn't a universal experience though. Not everyone will stick with and/or remain found of the version they grew up on/discovered first. Hell, there's people here who started out as dubbies then became subbies- Myself included.

It's not universal, hence I say the dubs can be enjoyed with the right mindset and expectations. I suppose I also have a higher tolerance for dubs taking liberties, as the Funimation and Westwood Z dubs are notorious for that. I can watch the dub and be entertained, but also watch the Japanese version and appreciate the show as intended by TOEI. I don't consider myself a dubbie or a subbie as I see both as valid experiences despite a lot of the flaws the dub had.

The gag is they were able to afford experience people. Contrary to whatever baseless statement gets thrown around Funimation outsourced to Canada and went to the Ocean Group because they were cheap. It was never an affordability issue they just wanted to cut cost by cutting the middle man and doing it themselves.

Indeed, there was a reason the Ocean Group was originally going to dub GT with the Vancouver cast and moved recording to Calgary, and that was to get it dubbed cheaper. You could say the middle man in this scenario was the 2001-2004 British Columbia Animation Agreement, which guaranteed overtime pay and double-casting bonuses for the actors. Having the dubbing of GT done out of province meant Ocean didn't have to abide by the agreement they signed, which meant actors could be hired on the cheap. Ian Corlett also quit because Ocean paid him so little for the work he did.

[YoungDefender]

That's not a universal thing though. Yeah, a lot of people are like that, but not everyone is.

I didn't need to grow up Japanese watching it in Japanese to like the Japanese version more than the English versions when I discovered it.

No, of course it's not universal, I didn't intend to say it was but nostalgia is something that always gets thrown around in these conversations and I personally don't think it can be (or should be) discounted. Without nostalgia for Z I could easily have been be more of a One Piece fan than a Dragon Ball one but all the same not sure I want to hear that from a One Piece fan trying to tell me how much better that franchise is and that I only think Dragon Ball is a good anime due to nostalgia.

I agree with the gist of what you're saying but I think "Funimation or a more competent company should have dubbed Dragon Ball Z correctly" and "nostalgia is a perfectly valid reason for enjoying something" aren't mutually exclusive statements

Agreed, not mutually exclusive. and yeah if we were going to dub the series today (or any other series) we'd probably want to go for accuracy and mirror the original as much as possible but I'm also somewhat glad they didn't in retrospect because I don't have the desire to get into my time machine, à la Future Trunks and wipe Saban/Westwood/funi dubs out of existence. I like those properties and I am sort of stuck liking them.

For me expecting complete purity from a localization is a bit of a recipe for disappointment and one is better off just going and watching the subbed version to satisfy that itch. This goes for most if not all anime series though.

Nostalgia is fine as long as it comes with a healthy perspective. I personally make a conscious effort to not put too much value in nostalgia since it often blinds people to the flaws of the product/time period/etc. they're nostalgic for.

I am nostalgic for Dragon Ball, but I'll be the first to admit that it doesn't have the best writing and that other animes have better writing. As for One Piece, I'm also a One Piece fan so I have no problem admitting that Oda does some things better than Toriyama.

Yeah obviously being willfully ignorant due to nostalgia is not doing anyone any favors but someone can be educated on the manga, original subbed anime and basically become an expert on DB canon and lore and still arrive at "that's cool and all but I still like the direction the dub(s) took and the vibe of the show better" and that is just as valid.

I don't consider myself a dubbie or a subbie as I see both as valid experiences despite a lot of the flaws the dub had.

I'm the same way. Why limit yourself to one flavor of ice cream when they are all enjoyable. There is a time and place, and a mood for both the sub and dubs in my view. You can like all of these in parallel.

[Majin Buu]

For me expecting complete purity from a localization is a bit of a recipe for disappointment and one is better off just going and watching the subbed version to satisfy that itch. This goes for most if not all anime series though.

There's a difference between "complete purity" and "being faithful to the source material". I've found that dub fans like to conflate the two when dismissing the complaints of sub fans.

Yeah obviously being willfully ignorant due to nostalgia is not doing anyone any favors but someone can be educated on the manga, original subbed anime and basically become an expert on DB canon and lore and still arrive at "that's cool and all but I still like the direction the dub(s) took and the vibe of the show better" and that is just as valid.

It's valid, it's just a perspective I as a sub fan will never be able to relate to since the dub is such a fundamentally different thing that's often at odds with what the source material established.

At the end of the day, I just want to experience the show "the way it was meant to be seen" by the people who actually made it. I can't do that with the dub.

[YoungDefender]

I've found that dub fans like to conflate the two when dismissing the complaints of sub fans.

Maybe this is true a lot of the time but I have found that a lot of the complaints about the dubs are not strictly around dialogue accuracy, plot points being delivered wrong, bad exposition and writing but simply the feel of the score and the acting performances and comparing those with the original and that's where it feels like there is this impossible standard for purity that's being tested against that one is better served by just going to enjoying Nozawa and Kikuchi if it is all that much of a deal breaker.

Obviously it's good to want better from a product, such as a localization, but there are degrees of sub fans too and some don't think that any dubs are good simply because they are dubs.

At the end of the day, I just want to experience the show "the way it was meant to be seen" by the people who actually made it. I can't do that with the dub.

Totally valid and get it, I do not necessarily relate really to it but I can understand this perspective.

[Majin Buu]

Maybe this is true a lot of the time but I have found that a lot of the complaints about the dubs are not strictly around dialogue accuracy, plot points being delivered wrong, bad exposition and writing but simply the feel of the score and the acting performances and comparing those with the original and that's where it feels like there is this impossible standard for purity that's being tested against that one is better served by just going to enjoying Nozawa and Kikuchi if it is all that much of a deal breaker.

The score is half the reason why the dub feels like a different beast, because the tone it establishes is very different from what Kikuchi's score establishes (making the show feel more "hardcore" and "edgy" than it actually is among other things); and it wasn't necessary for the score to be changed in the first place. The sticking point for me personally (in addition to liking Kikuchi's work) is just how unnecessary of a change it was (Pioneer didn't do that when they dubbed the first 3 Z movies and those feel more like Toei animation's Dragon Ball Z in English than Funi's take). Replacement scores aren't a thing anymore for a reason.

As for the acting performances, let's just say there's a reason Funimation redubbed some of the "Season 3" stuff.

Obviously it's good to want better from a product, such as a localization, but there are degrees of sub fans too and some don't think that any dubs are good simply because they are dubs.

Some anime fans are sub only, so yeah, those types do exist (though I would put money on at least some of those people being sub only because of bad dubs like this).

[YoungDefender]

The score is half the reason why the dub feels like a different beast, because the tone it establishes is very different from what Kikuchi's score establishes (making the show feel more "hardcore" and "edgy" than it actually is among other things); and it wasn't necessary for the score to be changed in the first place. The sticking point for me personally (in addition to liking Kikuchi's work) is just how unnecessary of a change it was in the first place (Pioneer didn't do that when they dubbed the first 3 Z movies). Replacement scores aren't a thing anymore for a reason.

Not sure if that reason is due to them being bad scores as much as it is the relative capture of anime localization by purist fanbases.

Necessary or not, the funimation score exists and it's pretty great. Edgy? Sure but I doubt it would resonate so much with so many people if it was THAT out of line with what was taking place on-screen.

Arguments based on "this was never supposed to be this way though" to me fall flat considering I view entertainment on a Darwinian model of whatever entertains me most gets my vote, not whatever came first or was originally intended. Aliens 1986 is a complete departure from how the original 1979 movie intended you to view the Xenomorphs and it's awesome in it's own right.

Some anime fans are sub only, so yeah, those types do exist (though I would put money on at least some of those people being sub only because of bad dubs like this).

Not sure how much credit this lends to those sub fans if that's the case. You either like or hate the dub because you personally have viewed it and like/hate it. Not liking something because of the history of anime dubbing in the west seems even more eyes wide shut than where the dub fans seem to be coming from since their love for the dub is based on personal and not assumed experiences.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Sub-only fans exist, as do dub-only fans. I don't think either extreme is good for the anime community though, and its much better for people to be open-minded. The reason I don't like terms like "dubbie" and "subbie" is because of the civil wars it creates within the fandoms and how hostile both sides can be. I'd much rather see a healthy fandom that respects one another's preferences and agrees to disagree when necessary (which to the point of this thread would be necessary if someone argued added humour in a dub improved a show).

[VegettoEX]

I see a lot of calls for "open-mindedness" while simultaneously painting thing in broad black-and-white strokes.

I was introduced to this franchise via the English dub. Due to concerns over content editing and lack of general widespread availability, I sought out the original Japanese version. Very quickly, I transitioned into primarily watching the original Japanese version of the franchise. I continued to actively watch the English dub for several years out of a combination of morbid curiosity and because it was worthwhile to me to be intimately familiar with it as someone actively covering the franchise, its news, its production, etc. Before the final run of its initial production, I was firmly "off" regularly consuming the dubbed version, seeing no need to know the minutia of every episode due to the cadence and standards they had clearly developed and refused to shift from. As the years continued on, I would occasionally dip in on the English dub -- either through force (non-dubbed video games) or by choice (reviewing products) -- to reassess and refamiliarize as someone who continued to actively cover the franchise. At no point going forward did I ever see something I "liked" or resonated with on any kind of personal enjoyment level. I have exclusively continued to focus on the original Japanese version, both because that's what I like, and because (as we often explain) it is the sole/single version that every fan across the planet can "fall back" to as the origination point and shared experience.

There's so much nuance and colorful history to all of our fandom journeys. Consider that when reading other folks' stories, when reflecting on your own, and before responding in these kinds of conversations.

[TheGreatness25]

What's considered "humorous" is subjective. Some people might like that the Funination dub sprinkled their brand of "humor" into the series. Personally, as a fully grown adult, I have trouble sitting through a lot of that old dub--I can't lie. It's just so cheesy.

I know that in the Super Hero movie, Sabat improvised a line and called Pan's teacher "Janet" to make it seem like Piccolo was already so familiar with that teacher at that point. And that's "humorous." But that doesn't make it a good subbing call.

If I took Requiem for a Dream and dubbed over it and changed up the music, I could make it humorous as hell. Doesn't mean that's a good thing.

[Majin Buu]

Not sure if that reason is due to them being bad scores as much as it is the relative capture of anime localization by purist fanbases.

This sounds like "it's bad that anime is being dubbed more faithfully". If I'm accurate, then we just have to agree to disagree here.

Necessary or not, the funimation score exists and it's pretty great. Edgy? Sure but I doubt it would resonate so much with so many people if it was THAT out of line with what was taking place on-screen.

It fits what's on the screen because it's in-line with the rest of the alterations Funimation made.

Not liking something because of the history of anime dubbing in the west seems even more eyes wide shut than where the dub fans seem to be coming from since their love for the dub is based on personal and not assumed experiences.

You say this as if a sub fan having been previously burned by a bad dub isn't a personal experience.

[Koitsukai]

I don't think there's much to do or even discuss about PEOPLE who enjoy other type of humor or think certain type of humor improves a particular show.
They like what they like, what can you do? change their minds? but what for, though? if they think that way, so be it.

[YoungDefender]

This sounds like "it's bad that anime is being dubbed more faithfully". If I'm accurate, then we just have to agree to disagree here.

Not sure I like this characterization or the direction the conversation is going in but if that's your takeaway from everything I've said so far, sure.

It fits what's on the screen because it's in-line with the rest of the alterations Funimation made.

Yeah, let's agree to disagree here. I've seen some fan edits where faulconer is placed behind the Japanese dub and it still works more or less in the same way so not sure what to tell you.

You say this as if a sub fan having been previously burned by a bad dub isn't a personal experience.

Being burned by one dub is a personal experience, it's not a position of authority to speak for how bad other dubs are by the association of being western dubs.

[Cure Dragon 255]

This sounds like "it's bad that anime is being dubbed more faithfully". If I'm accurate, then we just have to agree to disagree here.

Not sure I like this characterization or the direction the conversation is going in but if that's your takeaway from everything I've said so far, sure.

It fits what's on the screen because it's in-line with the rest of the alterations Funimation made.

Yeah, let's agree to disagree here. I've seen some fan edits where faulconer is placed behind the Japanese dub and it still works more or less in the same way so not sure what to tell you.

You say this as if a sub fan having been previously burned by a bad dub isn't a personal experience.

Being burned by one dub is a personal experience, it's not a position of authority to speak for how bad other dubs are by the association of being western dubs.

I am sorry if I am beating a dead horse, but I would rather have you clear up what you truly meant then. Because I actually do have some faith in you. I dont think you want innacuracies for their own sake. Could you explain this to a person who is sympathetic and willing to hear you out?

EDIT:Only the first point. The othersa are clear.

[Soppa Saia People]

Being burned by one dub is a personal experience, it's not a position of authority to speak for how bad other dubs are by the association of being western dubs.

A lot of anime dubs share a lot of voice actors, directors, and generally a similar style, to be fair. I wouldn't say all dubs are bad because of how the Z dub has turned out across the years, but I don't think it's unfair if you've had experienced with other, more recent, Funimation dubs, to say you're kinda turned off by most anime dubs.

[WittyUsername]

My personal stance on dubbing is that dubs should be faithful enough that they maintain the plot and characterizations of the original, but that there’s nothing wrong with punching up the dialogue, as long as it doesn’t effectively alter the mood of a scene, or reference Internet memes or something.

Anime dialogue in its native language has a tendency to suffer from repetition, and there are many examples of dialogue that would sound very awkward and stilted, if not outright bizarre, if they were spoken out loud in English.

[Majin Buu]

Not sure I like this characterization or the direction the conversation is going in but if that's your takeaway from everything I've said so far, sure.

I phrased it the way I did to acknowledge that I may be off in how I'm reading your statement and to give you the opportunity to clarify what you meant- instead of just running with my vibes.

Being burned by one dub is a personal experience, it's not a position of authority to speak for how bad other dubs are by the association of being western dubs.

I never claimed it was.

[YoungDefender]

I am sorry if I am beating a dead horse, but I would rather have you clear up what you truly meant then. Because I actually do have some faith in you. I dont think you want innacuracies for their own sake. Could you explain this to a person who is sympathetic and willing to hear you out?

EDIT:Only the first point. The othersa are clear.

Fair enough and since you are asking, sure. No, I do not think we should set out to make an inaccurate dub as some kind of mission statement. Of course not, I'm not insane.

Having said that when you are localizing anything, manga, anime, films, etc from a commercial perspective you need to make the best decision at that time to ensure success in the market. Nowadays that means super accurate/faithful dubbing, retaining original music and even original music vocals because that is what the anime market wants (but are often still not satisfied with).

In the late 90s it was not so obvious, especially when you are talking about airing a show on television for western audiences and kids who by that time were not exposed to a lot of Japanese media up to that point. You look around at other popular shows in the west and try to take a little bit of this and a bit of that to make sure you are not going to air something too alien and set yourself up for failure. This I think is specifically true for the musical accompaniment that even by the 90s, in the west at least, felt rather dated and sounded like something out of a 1960s anime (not that that is a bad thing but not sure 90s kids had that kind of taste at the time).

But the question isn't anymore should you do this or that - those decisions were made 20+ years ago and now we have these various dubs around that, like it or not some people are in love with. You can treat them as red-headed step-children but they are still related entities and have contributed to the global reach of this franchise and the success of the show in English speaking regions.

My personal stance on dubbing is that dubs should be faithful enough that they maintain the plot and characterizations of the original, but that there’s nothing wrong with punching up the dialogue, as long as it doesn’t effectively alter the mood of a scene, or reference Internet memes or something.

Anime dialogue in its native language has a tendency to suffer from repetition, and there are many examples of dialogue that would sound very awkward and stilted, if not outright bizarre, if they were spoken out loud in English.

Could not have said it better, this is largely how I feel about localizing anime and manga.

We can think that the "Pop goes the weasel" line is basically the end of the world and deal lord what were they thinking and someone please go in and pull Terry Klassen out of there but... does it really alter the mood of the scene?

The line itself may seem silly on it's face but in context the point is Frieza is making a rude, callous remark, making utter light of killing Goku's closest friend who was essentially defenseless and who's last words were calling out to Goku for help. Basically spitting on his grave with a chuckle to boot. Compared to "Should I kill the brat next?" they are more or less both conveying the same cruel, sadistic streak in Frieza that is leading up to the ordinarily gentle and kind Goku finally snapping.

Should the line have been something different and not based on a western nursery rhyme? Yes, absolutely but for the western audience they knew what the character was saying and how to interpret the juxtaposition of a kids nursery rhyme being used by the villain in jest to make a mockery of the killing of one of the good guys.

[ABED]

Having said that when you are localizing anything, manga, anime, films, etc from a commercial perspective you need to make the best decision at that time to ensure success in the market.

I have the feeling that the assumptions the dubbing industry had about anime were antiquated and with some mixture of racism thrown in there prior to the modern era.

I've also never understood the idea of making big changes when bringing things over. Don't you bring stuff over bc you think it will be a success?