Dragon Ball and the "It gets good in about 85% of the way!" mentality

[Jord]

I've heard about people saying it nosedives after Gokuu beats Frieza but never heard about people disliking it from the moment he arrives on Namek.
Why do you feel this way? Do you dislike the Freeza fight? (Which does have emotional stakes)

Opinion.

Thank you for sharing. You've made some interesting points and looking back I agree with you. (I've clipped your post in order to not create huge quote posts)


As a kid I liked how the Freeza fight progressed with Freezas new forms, Gohan's outburst and then the return of Piccolo but it soon turns into the "Let's wait for Goku" trope. And yes, the whole SSJ thing is really driven into the ground at that point.
Plus, even when Goku transforms it still seems to take ages for the fight to finish.

Not to mention that the Ginyu Force was basically done when Goku arrived. Vegeta teaming up with Gohan and Kuririn was interesting, especially against Recoome. With some more balancing the fights against the Ginyus could have been a lot more fun. Now it's basically over once Goku lands.

You and Julie really changed my opinion around. Namek would have been so much more interesting without Goku. This would also help with Gohans progression leading into the Garlic Jr and Cell sagas.

[TheGreatness25]

Maybe I'm in the wrong, but if I'm watching a show, I give it 3 episodes tops to see if it grips me. I don't have the time in my life to dedicate to media that I don't enjoy. I made that mistake with Hannibal--I said, "Oh, it's a show about Hannibal Lecter! Oh, well... I'm sure it gets good. Oh, well... I'm sure it gets better." Before I knew it, I blew past the first season, thinking "Well, it'll have to get better!" And by the time I realized that it was torture for me to sit through another painful moment of that show, I was already way too invested.

Some things grab me at the outset. I know that a lot of stories unfold over time, but something like Death Note, Dragon Ball, Cowboy Bebop, Yu Yu Hakusho, and Hajime no Ippo grabbed me immediately. I give movies about 30 minutes lol It doesn't mean that it's bad or anything, just means it's not for me and I don't want to invest the time to find out if I'm right or not. I've sat through way too much terrible media in my life to do that now as a person with a demanding job while wanting to pay a lot of attention to my home life and personal business as well.

The only time that I stop and watch a TV show or movie is with the wife or family as a way of spending time with them. I don't even do that when I make free time--I'm always multitasking. This is one of the reasons why I watch everything dubbed. So, yeah, I'm not abiding by that 85% thing.

[Majin Buu]

Hell, I think the Namek arc goes to shit after Gokuu arrives on Planet Namek and thge Artificial Humans arc is pretty bad once we hit Piccolo versus #17. Dragon Ball is rarely consistently good, and always inevitably devolves into a boring battle with few if any emotional stakes because Toriyama neither plans nor ever wants to commit to anything weighty.

Yeah, for as popular as those arcs are and for the things they do right, they each have their own flaws that stem from Toriyama's flaws as a writer.

Also, congratulations on hitting a 1,000 posts after all these days! I'm kind of jealous! lol

Thanks Julie! It's not lost on me that I've been a member of this forum for almost 20 years and only just now reached 1000 posts due to going inactive for years at a time (basically whenever Dragon Ball isn't on my mind).

People are entitled to being wrong.

And they'd be wrong. The Boo arc is a top 5 arc in the whole series.

Indeed they are .

I can understand some people starting to raise eyebrows during the Buu saga but hate? There are people out there that like most of Z but hate the Buu saga? I just don't quite get where the hatred can suddenly come from, it's not like the show/manga went full-on tonal whiplash by going from Saiyan saga to Buu... a lot happened in between to evolve the series in a mostly smooth and natural way.

Yes, the Buu saga started to throw every bit of proverbial gas left in the tank and the kitchen sink for good measure from a writing standpoint and that is fine. It's desirable even because it was intended to be (and in my mind still is) the final big send-off story line for the series and it delivered that in a near masterful way, all things considered.

About 15 years ago it was like 2/3rds of the fanbase thought the Buu arc was the bad one and it was singled out for its flaws more than the previous arcs were. You were in the minority if you thought otherwise. Today it's more 50/50. There's more people calling out the flaws of the more popular arcs and even some on this forum have admitted to softening on it, but the Buu arc has always been divisive, at least in the West, and largely still is (For instance, it's not uncommon to see certain fans and content creators say that Team Four Star made the right call in ending DBZ Abridged without doing the Buu arc because "it should have ended with Cell").

[GhostEmperorX]

Because I think liking media goes a bit deeper then that, honestly especially manga, because that only stuff still shows a lot that would make Dragon Ball good to someone. The artwork, character writing, sense of humor, paneling, how it handles drama, etc...

Absolutely, and this is what I was alluding to. There are many more elements besides plot/story that can hook an individual onto a series, come what may.

I think Dragon Ball can be made a special case of because I understand people disliking the pervy and creepy sexual humour in the beginning of the series, which becomes almost entirely absent by the time the 22nd Budokai rolls around.

I for one, do not. "Exceptions" tend to mean unfair double standards for the series, in many more areas than one. Additionally, that specific element isn't necessarily the main focus, although it did have more than one episode in the spotlight early on.
In case I didn't word it right, I can't quite imagine anyone who likes the series from the 1st ep quitting for that particular reason.

[Tamagon]

Even when DB is in a slump in terms of writing (eg Goku vs Freeza) I still enjoy it because of Toriyama's artistic and panel composition skills. It's quick and punchy, in ways a lot of other battle shonen don't seem to be as consistent at. One Piece for example has solid panel composition up until time skip, where it becomes infamously cluttered. Naruto has the inverse problem where it's panel composition remains steady but the art becomes less detailed. I know this is an unfair comparison because DB didn't go on as long as those manga, but hey, you gotta know when to pull the plug.

As for the Buu saga, it's the weakest of the Z arcs but I still enjoyed it. It's obvious Toriyama didn't know where to take the story, but I enjoyed the return to DB's sillier roots, and Vegeta's brief return to villainy made him feel more realistic. Mr. Satan convincing everyone to power up Goku's spirit bomb was the perfect way to defeat Buu.

There's valid critiques of Buu, but most of the resentment towards it is because of how it treated Gohan, and I think that's because of the anime placing a lot of extra focus on Gohan. In the manga, Gohan's second-stringer status was a lot more apparent, in fact it was the Cell saga that felt like an anomaly for trying to make him the new protagonist.

[Yuji]

While I agree the portion starting with the Freeza fight right up until Goku arrives on the battlefield can feel inconsequential, it's also, like, a little over ten chapters in the manga. Freeza finds Vegeta & co in 294 and Goku awakes in 306. Coupled with Toriyama's fast pacing, the small page count compared to other Shounen, and the large panels Toriyama uses to convey action, you can breeze right through it.

The stuff right after that until the end of the arc (328) is full of pretty engaging and compelling character stuff for Goku and thematic payoffs, starting with Vegeta's death and Goku's acceptance of his heritage, then of course the drama of the Super Saiyan transformation and his struggle to spare Freeza. The fight itself is pretty spectacularly choreographed, too. I can understand anime-only fans disliking the fight, but the manga's rendition is pretty much perfect.

I don't even think Wano is a fair comparison. Namek personifies the best Dragon Ball has to offer, Wano is the absolute worst One Piece has ever been.

[JulieYBM]

I feel like Toriyama's editorial support is rarely ever great at supporting him in finishing up character arcs. Kondou Yuu did a good job up to the climax of the Namek arc, which just...doesn't really feel like it resolves the built-up tension? It's why a lot of Dragon Ball just feels like "follow the popularity polls" or whatever. If Toriyama and friends wanted Gokuu to defeat Freeza then there should have been some build up.

Thanks Julie! It's not lost on me that I've been a member of this forum for almost 20 years and only just now reached 1000 posts due to going inactive for years at a time (basically whenever Dragon Ball isn't on my mind).

Personally, I think it's a great thing. I wish I'd posted less over the years myself. lol

[Tamagon]

Goku defeating Freeza had build up, at least by DB's brisk standards. As soon as Goku learns about Freeza's existence, he wants to fight him much to King Kai's displeasure. Freeza is responsible for the massacre against the Saiyans and is deathly afraid of them, building up to his defeat at the hands of a Saiyan. Vegeta suspects that Goku (or him, depending on his mood ) is actually the Super Saiyan meant to beat Freeza. I can agree that Goku vs Freeza is dragged out but Goku beating Freeza doesn't feel particularly unearned.

Also, who is comparing Namek to Wano? I definitely agree that Wano is way worse than Namek, lol

[Zephyr]

With the kind of story this is, it should have been apparent from the moment Goku departed for Namek where things would be ending: with Goku fighting the baddest and strongest dude there.

Goku defeating Freeza had build up, at least by DB's brisk standards. As soon as Goku learns about Freeza's existence, he wants to fight him much to King Kai's displeasure.

He also tells Vegeta that he wants to fight Freeza, after he lands on Namek. It's then no surprise when Goku expresses both interest and excitement over getting to fight Freeza at 100%.

[MasenkoHA]

Toriyama definitely telegraphs "Oh my God Goku is gonna become a Super Saiyan!!!" pretty much as soon as Goku arrives on Namek and with his status as main character it was pretty much a guarantee that Goku would be the one to realize the legend and defeat Freeza, well before it actually happened.

[Yuji]

Toriyama definitely telegraphs "Oh my God Goku is gonna become a Super Saiyan!!!" pretty much as soon as Goku arrives on Namek and with his status as main character it was pretty much a guarantee that Goku would be the one to realize the legend and defeat Freeza, well before it actually happened.

Goku himself expressed his desire to fight Freeza to Kaio on his way to Namek a mere, what, 10 chapters into the arc?

It's not like Gohan being sidelined for the majority of the Cell arc and only being hinted at eventually facing Cell when he enters the RoSaT. Goku and Freeza were matched up almost at the beginning of the arc as an eventual encounter.

[YoungDefender]

There's valid critiques of Buu, but most of the resentment towards it is because of how it treated Gohan, and I think that's because of the anime placing a lot of extra focus on Gohan. In the manga, Gohan's second-stringer status was a lot more apparent, in fact it was the Cell saga that felt like an anomaly for trying to make him the new protagonist.

I didn't really see this as Gohan behind sidelined at all, fusion aside he was one of the only credible threats to Buu and only lost due to shenanigans.

To me Buu saga feels like the characters are going through their armory one weapon at a time in desperation for anything that could work, anything that might work. Jumping from one false hope to another I feel is part of the charm of that whole arc.

But I don't think Gohan was that much less of a protagonist before the Cell arc or after the Cell arc. He's been the number two character since almost immediately after being introduced and assumed the mantle of number one after Goku's sacrifice and until the world tournament, more or less. Gohan is as pushed as a protagonist as he can possibly be without completely overtaking Goku himself. If art imitates life, well then sons don't always succeed or surpass their fathers and in some ways Gohan did, but not in every way. Gohan fans may be selling Goku short if they think Gohan should have been the one to save the day at the end of the Buu saga. Gohan did save the world, once. And that should count for a lot but he was never going to replace Goku.

[Majin Buu]

Personally, I think it's a great thing. I wish I'd posted less over the years myself. lol

I appreciate the words of encouragement Julie . You're right, taking a step back every so often is important.

I don't even think Wano is a fair comparison. Namek personifies the best Dragon Ball has to offer, Wano is the absolute worst One Piece has ever been.

Also, who is comparing Namek to Wano? I definitely agree that Wano is way worse than Namek, lol

Wow, and I thought the Dressrosa arc had some writing fumbles. I took a break after that arc to let a reading queue build up, but I wasn't aware the Wano arc had such a bad reputation.

To me Buu saga feels like the characters are going through their armory one weapon at a time in desperation for anything that could work, anything that might work. Jumping from one false hope to another I feel is part of the charm of that whole arc.

Agreed. It really emphasizes how much of an existential threat Buu is.

Gohan fans may be selling Goku short if they think Gohan should have been the one to save the day at the end of the Buu saga. Gohan did save the world, once. And that should count for a lot but he was never going to replace Goku.

Twice in fact. He was the one that put Vegeta down for good in the Saiyan arc.

IMO, Gohan's actual screw up against Buu wasn't even in the fight proper - It was letting Gotenks take the field against his better judgement, letting Gotenks convince him with the logic that Buu was too stupid to be a threat (which Gohan himself already believed considering he himself had insulted Buu's intelligence earlier).

[Vegard Aune]

I don't even think Wano is a fair comparison. Namek personifies the best Dragon Ball has to offer, Wano is the absolute worst One Piece has ever been.

Also, who is comparing Namek to Wano? I definitely agree that Wano is way worse than Namek, lol

Wow, and I thought the Dressrosa arc had some writing fumbles. I took a break after that arc to let a reading queue build up, but I wasn't aware the Wano arc had such a bad reputation.

Hard disagree on Wano being in any way "the worst of One Piece". Like, yeah, it does have some fumbles, mostly down to Oda just not knowing when enough is enough, (the climax has like twenty separate fights which is a big contributor to why said climax, on its own, is longer than most entire arcs in the rest of the series) but... You mention Dressrosa? I can absolutely not under any circumstances agree to Wano being "the worst of One Piece" when Dressrosa exists. Or Fishman Island. Or Thriller Bark. All the arcs where I actively just was wishing for it to end. For as long and bloated as the climax to Wano was, I never reached that point of "God can we just be done here already?" And also for as bloated as it was, it did have some of the legit best moments in the series. And the anime does pick up the slack for a good number of the manga's shortcomings which, oh right, as far as the anime goes, Wano is hands down the best thing to have ever come out of the franchise. And it gave us several of the best episodes the series has ever had, including what I still hold to be the #1. Because Ishitani is an absolute legend, which we already saw signs of with the DBS finale but she really got to show her stuff in the three Wano episodes she directed.

[Yuji]

I don't watch the One Piece anime but the manga version of Wano is definitely emblematic of One Piece at its worst. I don't really care for comparing it to Thriller Bark, Dressrosa or Fishman Island because all four arcs are awful and share the same issues. My main problems with modern One Piece are as follows:

- Awful, unbearably slow pacing;
- Terrible panelling and composition, each page is a cluttered mess focused on piling on as much info as possible;
- Badly choreographed fights and multiple interesting match-ups being off-screened;
- Larger interest in lore dumps and story exposition than developing character interactions and relationships;
- Overreliance on flashbacks that completely destroy the pacing;
- Melodramatic and saccharine;
- Repetitive arc structure (how many times has Alabasta been done so far?);
- Luffy himself feeling progressively more and more out of place in Oda's complex and morally grey world;
- We have yet to see how Luffy's fruit will play into the narrative but on a first impression I dislike the retcon.

A lot of these issues are present in early One Piece too, make no mistake, but it's also an actual, simple and sincere story with endearing characters, not a collection of bullet points and lore dumps from an author who's made it abundantly clear he wants to get this all over with as quickly as possible. I'm sure the anime's stellar animation can fix some of the more visual issues like the panelling and fights but the overall plot structure remains plagued with the same problems.

[Drayenko]

- Awful, unbearably slow pacing.

...he wants to get this all over with as quickly as possible.

Which is it

[Yuji]

- Awful, unbearably slow pacing.

...he wants to get this all over with as quickly as possible.

Which is it

An essay can be long and tedious but still feel rushed because there's no actual meat to the text, that's One Piece. Oda has a lot of ideas and a lot of stuff he wants to implement into the story, which bogs the pacing down, but at the same time it's all being poorly conveyed to the point it feels he's just checking boxes off a checklist.

[Vegerotto]

or even worse with One Piece which has over 1000 episodes and if they drop it any earlier or just give up 65% of the run they will turn snooty and whine about "How you didnt give it a fair chance." This isnt unique to One Piece (Yugioh GX comic anyone?)

As a One Piece manga fan, I absolutely hate when this point is brought up.

Because One Piece’s length isn’t a problem with the core of the series, or is it a problem with what Oda wrote.

It’s a problem with the anime being utter shit.

Like, I agree, One Piece SHOULDN’T be 1000 episodes long. It does not have enough MATERIAL to even fill that length

Both the anime and manga are at about 1000 chapters/episodes. However, most good manga to anime adaptations adapt 2-3 chapters an episode.

Meaning that the One Piece anime shouldn’t be at 1000!! It should be anywhere from 333-500ish episodes!

Is that still long? Yes. But not as absurdly so, and Dragon Ball + Z + GT falls within that range!!!!

One Piece is not a series that, at its current point, has 1000 episodes worth of content - but they want that weekly schedule and time slot goddammit so they’re going to stretch it beyond belief!

It’s just infuriating hearing this continually leveled at the series when it’s not the fault of the original work itself, just an awful adaptation.

TLDR; One Piece shouldn’t be 1000 episodes long in the first place, the anime just stretches things out to an absurd degree

[JulieYBM]

or even worse with One Piece which has over 1000 episodes and if they drop it any earlier or just give up 65% of the run they will turn snooty and whine about "How you didnt give it a fair chance." This isnt unique to One Piece (Yugioh GX comic anyone?)

As a One Piece manga fan, I absolutely hate when this point is brought up.

Because One Piece’s length isn’t a problem with the core of the series, or is it a problem with what Oda wrote.

It’s a problem with the anime being utter shit.

Like, I agree, One Piece SHOULDN’T be 1000 episodes long. It does not have enough MATERIAL to even fill that length

Both the anime and manga are at about 1000 chapters/episodes. However, most good manga to anime adaptations adapt 2-3 chapters an episode.

Meaning that the One Piece anime shouldn’t be at 1000!! It should be anywhere from 333-500ish episodes!

Is that still long? Yes. But not as absurdly so, and Dragon Ball + Z + GT falls within that range!!!!

One Piece is not a series that, at its current point, has 1000 episodes worth of content - but they want that weekly schedule and time slot goddammit so they’re going to stretch it beyond belief!

It’s just infuriating hearing this continually leveled at the series when it’s not the fault of the original work itself, just an awful adaptation.

TLDR; One Piece shouldn’t be 1000 episodes long in the first place, the anime just stretches things out to an absurd degree

No, no, the comic is too long, too. Not everybody has the time or ability to read nearly 1,100 chapters, especially if Oda's difficult to decipher art makes it harder to read.

You can rail against the cartoon as much as you like, but at the end of the day, the original comic has plenty of it's own issues that make it a pain to even get into. Like, who has time to sit through story arcs of crap to get to the supposedly good Arlong? Or later arcs that are supposedly great?

Not everything is for everyone, and that's okay.

[Vegerotto]

or even worse with One Piece which has over 1000 episodes and if they drop it any earlier or just give up 65% of the run they will turn snooty and whine about "How you didnt give it a fair chance." This isnt unique to One Piece (Yugioh GX comic anyone?)

[..]

It’s just infuriating hearing this continually leveled at the series when it’s not the fault of the original work itself, just an awful adaptation.

TLDR; One Piece shouldn’t be 1000 episodes long in the first place, the anime just stretches things out to an absurd degree

No, no, the comic is too long, too. Not everybody has the time or ability to read nearly 1,100 chapters, especially if Oda's difficult to decipher art makes it harder to read.

You can rail against the cartoon as much as you like, but at the end of the day, the original comic has plenty of it's own issues that make it a pain to even get into. Like, who has time to sit through story arcs of crap to get to the supposedly good Arlong? Or later arcs that are supposedly great?

I mean obviously I wouldn’t say you have to read all 1,100 chapters to form an opinion on it.

I also agree with having Arlong as the decision point - though I would probably ask them what they don’t like at that point, rather than just go “yeah not for you.” However, Arlong, while still a bit in, is something you get to relatively quickly while reading, compared to the anime. And the fact that it’s a *bit* in is worth it, given how much you have after that point if you do enjoy it.

One Piece isn’t for everyone, but the anime is an awful marker of the length, and I hate seeing it used as one.

Finally I do want to agree on the point about art - I would say Oda is better at drawing individual panels than Toriyama, but when you put them all together and try to read them sequentially…….yeah no it’s. Hard. It works most of the time but fight scenes can be super hard to follow.

In that aspect, not even he can beat the flow and action and composition of Toriyama.

The color versions of the manga help, but unfortunately I don’t personally like their style soooo