Dragon Ball and the "It gets good in about 85% of the way!" mentality

[Majin Buu]

As a One Piece manga fan, I absolutely hate when this point is brought up.

Because One Piece’s length isn’t a problem with the core of the series, or is it a problem with what Oda wrote.

It’s a problem with the anime being utter shit.

I'm a One Piece fan too, but this feels like you're dodging valid complaints about One Piece's length by acting like it's entirely the anime's fault when the anime being too damn long is, if anything, a symptom of the manga- the source material, being too damn long itself. The anime just exacerbates that problem with filler and a terrible chapter to episode ratio.

[Vegerotto]

As a One Piece manga fan, I absolutely hate when this point is brought up.

Because One Piece’s length isn’t a problem with the core of the series, or is it a problem with what Oda wrote.

It’s a problem with the anime being utter shit.

I'm a One Piece fan too, but this feels like you're dodging valid complaints about One Piece's length by acting like it's entirely the anime's fault when the anime being too damn long is, if anything, a symptom of the manga- the source material, being too damn long itself. The anime just exacerbates that problem with filler and a terrible chapter to episode ratio.

If you want to claim the 330ish to 500ish worth of content is too long, go ahead, I guess. I can understand that perspective

But the original manga isn’t 1000 episodes worth. If you’re arguing about it being 1000 episodes, then yeah I’m going to get annoyed when that’s not the original work’s fault.

[Majin Buu]

If you want to claim the 330ish to 500ish worth of content is too long, go ahead, I guess. I can understand that perspective

The manga's length won't seem like an issue when you describe it vaguely like that.

When you accurately describe it as 106 volumes spanning over 1000 chapters of content though? Then its length starts to become more apparent.

But the original manga isn’t 1000 episodes worth. If you’re arguing about it being 1000 episodes, then yeah I’m going to get annoyed when that’s not the original work’s fault.

But it is though. The source material being too long is a problem for some (again, saying this as a One Piece fan myself), and that's a problem the anime adaption only exacerbates.

[kemuri07]

The thing with Yuji's point is that part of me violently disagrees with their opinon, while a part of me also agrees with the criticism of OP post-time skip.

I absolutely agree that the paneling makes the manga virtually unreadable. I thought it was merely a problem with using the Shonen Jump app on my phone, but I've also read several manga (including DBZ) on it, and I did not have the problems with them that I often do reading One Piece. I also do not like the post-time skip art, particualrly as to how Oda chooses to draw women. Either you're a thin waist, big boobed beauty, or you're an ugly old hag in which the manga constantly mocks how ugly they are. For a story often celebrated for its progressive ) story, that aspect of One Piece remains the most disappointing. Though I think Oda is getting slightly better about this. Namely one of the funniest gags in the entirety of One Piece is when Robin, who is largely known for being a stoic beauty, gets to do the infamous Wano face.

I do agree that OP's length sometimes works against it, especially during the post-time skip arcs where you can definitely tell that Oda has settled into a groove in order to make a weekly comic work. Namely Luffy and co arrive on an island that is currently being oppressed; Luffy and Co are all separated due to circumstances; we get a long as fuck flashback section that details how said island got opressed; there is a massive brawl between the Straw Hats and the villains, and usually Luffy has to beat the bad guy within a time limit before the entire island blows up. Then the Straw Hats celebrate with a massive party. Rinse and repeat.

I don't think the problem here is that Oda has a reliable structure (I imagine most mangaka do in order to cut down on the difficulties of writing/drawing a weekly manga), but I think the more complex post-time skip story lines shine a light to Oda's weaknesses as a writier. I found Fisherman's island to be absolutely dreadful, and there were a couple of times I thought about dropping the manga entirely. Things somewhat improved with Dresserosa, but even that was rough to get into (and I really hated the toy soldier subplot). With that said though, The Whole Cake Island arc is easily the best of the post-time skip arcs and among the best arcs in OP in general.

Wano I imagine will go down as being divisive precisely due to its length. But I don't agree that it's bad or even terrible; I think it's Oda at his most ambitious in terms of both the storytelling structure of Wano, and his world building. And I think for the most part it is largely successful of what it sets out to do: setting up the final leg of One Piece.

Despite all of that, I don't think I'd change any aspect of One Piece. I don't think making it shorter, even if One Piece's bloat comes with some headaches, would make it better. More accessible? I guess. But I don't necessarily think that would make One Piece better if it was shorten from 1000+ chapters to a more digestable 400 or 500 chapters. Could it be done? Probably. But I think a primary reason why people like One Piece, and why it is the cultural event that it is today absolutely comes down to One PIece basically being a modern day epic.

[Vegerotto]

If you want to claim the 330ish to 500ish worth of content is too long, go ahead, I guess. I can understand that perspective

The manga's length won't seem like an issue when you describe it vaguely like that.

When you accurately describe it as 106 volumes spanning over 1000 chapters of content though? Then its length starts to become more apparent.

Ok then describe it as that then, not the number of anime episodes.

But the original manga isn’t 1000 episodes worth. If you’re arguing about it being 1000 episodes, then yeah I’m going to get annoyed when that’s not the original work’s fault.

But it is though. The source material being too long is a problem for some (again, saying this as a One Piece fan myself), and that's a problem the anime adaption only exacerbates.

The source material isn’t 1000 episodes worth long though.

If you think it’s still too long, that’s fair, I’m not going to say you’re WRONG, that’s a valid opinion.

However, if you’re going to use a specific number to describe it, I am going to get annoyed when that number doesn’t really reflect the source material.

1000 episodes long is because of a bad anime adaptation.
1000 chapters long is a valid critique of the original work.

But those lengths aren’t even remotely comparable.

[kemuri07]

The problem with One Piece (anime) is that it is a relic of a time in which an anime being produced side by side with its manga was normal. As such, One Piece suffers from the same issues that plauged Dragon Ball Z and the other members of The Big 3--Bleach and Naruto.

I started reading One PIece during Quarantine, and three years later finally got myself up to date. However, before that I watched the anime and made it all the way to the Fisherman Island arc, and ultimately had to stop because I was just way too burned out by the languid pacing. The anime is constantly buying time for itself, so moments that only took a couple of minutes in the manga, outright took nearly the entirety of an episode to finish. It just got too much for me.

If you are a newbie who wants to watch One Piece, than the manga is the only way to go.

[JulieYBM]

I'm not even sure if we're compariing the legnths of the anime to the comic. They're both long as fuck and make it difficult for people to get into because time and attention are limited. One Piece being structured in such a serialized manner also doesn't make it easy to just read a little at once for a complete narrative. Threads will go on for four years in the comic.

This is a big issue why I haven't re-watched or re-read a lot of long series in general. I think the more episodic nature of the arcs in Dragon Ball Super definitely help it out, but even then, the Moro and Granola arcs were hideously paced.

[kemuri07]

What helped me was that OP (manga) is only about 15 pages per chapter, so it wasn't that difficult for me to bang out a couple of chapters a day.


To go back to the central point of this thread: The problem with the statement "It gets good after *insert specific chapter number or season here*" is that it makes the act of watching and enjoying an anime a chore to get through.

Example: It's widely considered that ep 19 of Demon Slayer is the moment when DS goes from being an okay anime to an instant Shounen classic. But episode 19 only works its magic if you allow the show, within those episodes, to get its claws on you. Episode 19 is great because it felt like the culmination of everything Demon Slayer was working towards to, and I was rewarded for sticking through it. It's about the journey.

One PIece is too long for someone to simply watch until it "gets good." It's too long, it's too dense, and it's too demanding of its audience, that i imagine most people who are watching only to get to a certain point will likely drop out before they even get there. For me, One Piece is about going along with the ride and not worrying too much about the destination. The actual One Piece is sure to be somewhat disappointing because it can't possibly live up to 30+ years of hype. But what people will take from it is the journey to get there.

[Zephyr]

The real One Piece will be the friends they made along the way.

[JulieYBM]

I feel like nineteen episodes is way too far into the series before it gets good. Hell, if we applied this to Dragon Ball (1986) or the comic, where is that benchmark? Tenshinhan vs Yamcha? Piccolo Daimaou? The Saiyan arc? That's so much time to devote to a series that you aren't already liking.

[Hellspawn28]

I don't like the idea of "Wait until ___ to get good" idea either. I try mutiple shows, books, comics, etc to get good and I end up dropping. Like people told me that Kamen Rider Drive gets good at 30 something episodes in when that's too much time and effort to wait for good story telling.

[Majin Buu]

The source material isn’t 1000 episodes worth long though.

If you think it’s still too long, that’s fair, I’m not going to say you’re WRONG, that’s a valid opinion.

However, if you’re going to use a specific number to describe it, I am going to get annoyed when that number doesn’t really reflect the source material.

1000 episodes long is because of a bad anime adaptation.
1000 chapters long is a valid critique of the original work.

But those lengths aren’t even remotely comparable.

I'm not talking about specific numbers or anything. I just think both the manga and anime are too long for their own good and that it's silly to act like being too long is only an issue with the anime adaptation when it's just as much of a problem with the manga.

[Koitsukai]

I feel like nineteen episodes is way too far into the series before it gets good. Hell, if we applied this to Dragon Ball (1986) or the comic, where is that benchmark? Tenshinhan vs Yamcha? Piccolo Daimaou? The Saiyan arc? That's so much time to devote to a series that you aren't already liking.

Depends on what you are lookin for. I got hooked up immediately because of how cute Goku was, and I had just watched the fucking ToP, I was in hakaishin mode but Chibi Goku still got me. Cannot stress this enough, I had watched, two days earlier, a shirtless Vegeta destroy the arena and kick Toppo out of it.

If I were after fights only, I probably would have to wait until the second arc, until the 21st TB, because fighting-wise it's kinda dull everything in the Pilaf arc. I was just there for that chubby Goku.
That's like 12 episodes in, I think, because they already introduce the idea of the TB early on, so even though it's not immediate, the concept of the TB should already hook you up. If you can sit and wait until the bulk of the TB kicks in then you are in.

The 22nd TB with Tenshinhan seems way too far in the future if the 21st TB and the RRA arc didn't captivate you.
Rather than sitting through 30 episodes, I'd recommend just jumping in during the 2nd half of the RRA arc, where you'll get a mix of higher stakes and also some silly fighting. It's light-hearted and also serious at times.
For the more serious type of audience, with just evil doers, deaths, things on the line, explosions, etc... the 23rd TB, or the Piccolo arc.

For Z, it's much more straightforward, it's like two episodes and Raditz is already fucking people up, and you get alerted that his bosses are coming now... and the MC dies in like the 3rd episode.

[MasenkoHA]

The thing with original Dragon Ball is it does change quite a bit the first few episodes are in no way indicative of what the series actually ends up being. Torishima even directed Toriyama to change the genre because it wasn't selling as a road story. I would never tell someone "you got to sit through 13 episodes before it gets good" I would honestly advised someone who wasn't feeling the first few episodes of Dragon Ball to skip to the second arc and test out a few episodes before deciding if Dragon Ball is for them or not.

[JulieYBM]

The thing with original Dragon Ball is it does change quite a bit the first few episodes are in no way indicative of what the series actually ends up being. Torishima even directed Toriyama to change the genre because it wasn't selling as a road story. I would never tell someone "you got to sit through 13 episodes before it gets good" I would honestly advised someone who wasn't feeling the first few episodes of Dragon Ball to skip to the second arc and test out a few episodes before deciding if Dragon Ball is for them or not.

This is a good idea, yeah. For all the complaining that people do how the US skipped the beginning of the series, I think that as I have gotten older I have disagreed with that mentality the old I have gotten. I don't think that we should tell fans how to enjoy a series in that regard, because ultimately it's nobody's business, and furthermore, JUMP comics evolve vastly over their runs, so perhaps becoming a fan in a nonliner ways shouldn't be considered lesser.

[MasenkoHA]

The thing with original Dragon Ball is it does change quite a bit the first few episodes are in no way indicative of what the series actually ends up being. Torishima even directed Toriyama to change the genre because it wasn't selling as a road story. I would never tell someone "you got to sit through 13 episodes before it gets good" I would honestly advised someone who wasn't feeling the first few episodes of Dragon Ball to skip to the second arc and test out a few episodes before deciding if Dragon Ball is for them or not.

This is a good idea, yeah. For all the complaining that people do how the US skipped the beginning of the series, I think that as I have gotten older I have disagreed with that mentality the old I have gotten. I don't think that we should tell fans how to enjoy a series in that regard, because ultimately it's nobody's business, and furthermore, JUMP comics evolve vastly over their runs, so perhaps becoming a fan in a nonliner ways shouldn't be considered lesser.

It's also a relatively recent idea that you have to start with the first episode of any show. Until like, I dunno, 2014 ish? It was pretty standard to jump into a show on whatever episode it was on and then backtrack when you were able to. There were very few shows I watched as a kid and teenager where I started on episode 1 because that just isn't how tv worked back then.

Even ignoring Dragon Ball being skipped by Funimation very few people on here can probably say the first episode of Dragon Ball Z they saw was Arrival of Raditz (or if they were a sub fan first "Mini Goku is charming. I am Gohan")

[ABED]

The thing with original Dragon Ball is it does change quite a bit the first few episodes are in no way indicative of what the series actually ends up being. Torishima even directed Toriyama to change the genre because it wasn't selling as a road story. I would never tell someone "you got to sit through 13 episodes before it gets good" I would honestly advised someone who wasn't feeling the first few episodes of Dragon Ball to skip to the second arc and test out a few episodes before deciding if Dragon Ball is for them or not.

This is a good idea, yeah. For all the complaining that people do how the US skipped the beginning of the series, I think that as I have gotten older I have disagreed with that mentality the old I have gotten. I don't think that we should tell fans how to enjoy a series in that regard, because ultimately it's nobody's business, and furthermore, JUMP comics evolve vastly over their runs, so perhaps becoming a fan in a nonliner ways shouldn't be considered lesser.

It's also a relatively recent idea that you have to start with the first episode of any show. Until like, I dunno, 2014 ish? It was pretty standard to jump into a show on whatever episode it was on and then backtrack when you were able to. There were very few shows I watched as a kid and teenager where I started on episode 1 because that just isn't how tv worked back then.

Even ignoring Dragon Ball being skipped by Funimation very few people on here can probably say the first episode of Dragon Ball Z they saw was Arrival of Raditz (or if they were a sub fan first "Mini Goku is charming. I am Gohan")

It's the first FULL episode of DBZ I ever saw and just happened upon it. The reason I stopped is bc I heard someone (Chichi) say "Goku!" which was a name I knew after living in Japan for 2 years.

But yes, I agree with what you said. Often the best episode to show someone to get them into a show isn't the first episode. If they like it, they will likely backtrack especially these days where starting from the beginning is so much simpler. My friend got me into Community by showing me the paintball episode. I watched the pilot after I got the DVDs.

[kemuri07]

I feel like nineteen episodes is way too far into the series before it gets good. Hell, if we applied this to Dragon Ball (1986) or the comic, where is that benchmark? Tenshinhan vs Yamcha? Piccolo Daimaou? The Saiyan arc? That's so much time to devote to a series that you aren't already liking.

But that's not really my point. I wasn't suggesting that Demon Slayer was a chore or terrible beforehand. That would make Demon Slayer a bad show no matter how good ep 19 was. What I am saying is that the episodes before hand act as a foundation so that when Ep 19 hits, it hits strong. And since then Demon Slayer has been appointment tv for most people. But yes, I was enjoying Demon Slayer even before ep 19.

[Vegard Aune]

...So. Dragon Ball. Personally the point where it hooked me was Goku's training with the Turtle Sage. Which, in the manga, is volume 3, like, 28 chapters in or so. I had previously tried to read the first two volumes but couldn't really get into them, then at one point during a family vacation I picked up volume 3 (My sister had enjoyed the first two volumes more than me and so had bought volume 3... Ironically she fell off hard when the series got more action-focused and while I still consider myself a fan, she does not really like DB at all anymore) and thought it was a ton of fun. Which, like, the fact that I wasn't immediately hooked by the first two volumes might be a bit of a knock against it, but I feel like asking someone to read three volumes is not too bad of an ask. The fact that at this point the only version of the manga available in Norway is in a 3-in-1 omnibus format also might help make it an easier sell.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

This is a good idea, yeah. For all the complaining that people do how the US skipped the beginning of the series, I think that as I have gotten older I have disagreed with that mentality the old I have gotten. I don't think that we should tell fans how to enjoy a series in that regard, because ultimately it's nobody's business, and furthermore, JUMP comics evolve vastly over their runs, so perhaps becoming a fan in a nonliner ways shouldn't be considered lesser.

People are free to enjoy/consume media nonlinearly and there's no issue with them doing only that, caveat, if you don't go back to the stuff you skipped don't come later in discussions claiming you have an informed take on the stuff you comsumed.