Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 97 - Official Discussion Thread

[YamiGoku]

The Bulma case is also bad because she is supposed to be like the smartest person on earth, but even with all the smarts and all the experience of all the world ending threats she has, she still doesn't let his son train and then calls him useless...


Having Goku and vegeta is not an excuse, she has experienced multiple times when Goku and/or Vegeta were out of commission or out of reach, shit can happen and they might not be around, today we got Piccolo and Gohan stepin in, but what happens if next time they also gone?

Bulma is not only a woman and a mother, but she's also supposed to be a genius, she should be better than a Chichi 2.0, even Chichi should be better than not letting his son train at this point.

[Alkiser]

The Bulma case is also bad because she is supposed to be like the smartest person on earth, but even with all the smarts and all the experience of all the world ending threats she has, she still doesn't let his son train and then calls him useless...


Having Goku and vegeta is not an excuse, she has experienced multiple times when Goku and/or Vegeta were out of commission or out of reach, shit can happen and they might not be around, today we got Piccolo and Gohan stepin in, but what happens if next time they also gone?

Bulma is not only a woman and a mother, but she's also supposed to be a genius, she should be better than a Chichi 2.0, even Chichi should be better than not letting his son train at this point.

First of all, she is a mother and she behaves like a mother and not like a scientist who takes 300 steps forward.

[YamiGoku]

The Bulma case is also bad because she is supposed to be like the smartest person on earth, but even with all the smarts and all the experience of all the world ending threats she has, she still doesn't let his son train and then calls him useless...


Having Goku and vegeta is not an excuse, she has experienced multiple times when Goku and/or Vegeta were out of commission or out of reach, shit can happen and they might not be around, today we got Piccolo and Gohan stepin in, but what happens if next time they also gone?

Bulma is not only a woman and a mother, but she's also supposed to be a genius, she should be better than a Chichi 2.0, even Chichi should be better than not letting his son train at this point.

First of all, she is a mother and she behaves like a mother and not like a scientist who takes 300 steps forward.

I dont expect her to act like a cold hearted super genius, but a bit of common sense for someone that's supposed to be really smart would be nice, she can be a mother and also recognize the fact that its safer for her son and for the rest if he keeps up in shape, or better yet, trains to become stronger, I dont say cut his studies and make him a warrior, but let him train at least so when the new Earth/Universe shattering villain/s appear, they are better prepared instead of being "useless".

I dont mind Dragon Ball being dumb if its for good fanservice or an actual funny joke, but this is just a lose lose to me, is just an excuse to keep the kids as Jobbers and don't give them any proper time to shine, and make Bulma just another Chichi, not letting his son train, when she should know better at this point.

[dragonballhero]

but how else will jump make sure all the little kids reading their comics will grow up to think badly of women?

It's truly boggles my mind how this series treats women after all of this time. Like, you'd think there'd be SOME positive change, but...

This manga adaptation is essentially following the script of the movie, Goten and Trunks were destined to be near useless like how in the movie they couldn't even fuse correctly.

So I'm not understanding how story contrivances making sure that happens relates to sexism. The entire premise of Goten and Trunks having secret identities never made sense in the first place when Gohan was a Saiyaman just fine, hell Bulma even created the suit for him. It's probably just Toyotarou taking inspiration from the Marvel/western superhero comics he likes like Spider-Man etc.

Also you say there's been no positive change? Oh are you not a fan of Pan then? Who actively pursues and shows an interest in martial arts while never actually being a damsel in distress throughout the entire movie. What about the female saiyans of Universe 6? What about #18 being given more active roles in the TOP, Moro Arc and Super Hero compared to when she didn't do much of anything in the Buu saga.

My apologies about that earlier quote. Honestly, I guess I was just still thrown off by the whole "Bulma calls Trunks and Goten useless" thing. Like, if she hadn't done that, combined with the reveal that the boys were grounded for half a year thing, I wouldn't have been so quick to speak so 'generally'.

For the record, I LOVE what Super and Super Hero have done with Pan. Really wanted to like her in GT, but... it's just not happening. Heck, I'll be the first to say that if Toriyama ever does decide to take a crack at finding a new lead for DB, Pan should totally be that character. At least she actually has a genuine interest in the hobby, unlike her dad and uncle.

[BWri]

The depiction of women in Dragon Ball is a distraction from the fucking point of the comic.

Don't like it. Don't read it.

You can like something while being disappointed in certain aspects of it. Being a fan and having opinions doesn't require you to be "all-in".

For the record, I LOVE what Super and Super Hero have done with Pan. Really wanted to like her in GT, but... it's just not happening. Heck, I'll be the first to say that if Toriyama ever does decide to take a crack at finding a new lead for DB, Pan should totally be that character. At least she actually has a genuine interest in the hobby, unlike her dad and uncle.

Superhero Pan is a fantastic combination of Goku, Gohan, and Videl. She would be refreshing as a protagonist. Looking at the lay of the land, I honestly would love a new show with her at the helm. Hopefully Gohan publishes Groundbreaking Science soon so that we can setup a new era.

[Kazuya Mishima]

You can like something while being disappointed in certain aspects of it. Being a fan and having opinions doesn't require you to be "all-in".

It's a children's comic book. If you're gonna cry about how fictional characters are portrayed to the point it "distracts" you from what the series is really about then just don't read the thing in the first place.

[VegettoEX]

If you don’t like those posts, you don’t have to respond to or engage with them.

[Xeogran]

I like both SH Pan and GT Pan alike. Both have fun flavors and characters IMO.

[LightBing]

My favorite chapter from the arc.
I liked how the heroes pre-arc came together here, the action was fun. Fighting a giant opponent with teamwork is rare in Dragon Ball, this was fresh.

Not enjoying how Kuririn is being mocked, it's becoming a bit much for a recycled joke. Feels like memes taking control of writing like with Yamcha.
In this instance Bulma is being written as a bully.

Regarding the kids being grounded and not training. It was clearly set up for the gag, sometimes(most times) Dragon Ball shouldn't be taken that seriously.

[nineko]

Yawn, nothing to see here. I liked the dynamics between the Saiyamen and the Gammas, but that's it. Time to play the waiting game again.

[Kazuya Mishima]

That was probably the worst chapter I've read in years. That was 45 pages of absolutely nothing.

The same tired childish antics, starring two of the worst characters in the series that covered just 5 minutes of the film. There's still 20 minutes worth of film left, this is gonna be dragged on for the rest of this year.

[kemuri07]

I'm a bit more positive on this arc. At the very least, it does try to tie itself to the beginning of the Superhero Arc by bringing into focus that the two Androids are deliberately modeled after Goten and Trunks is a fun one.

I mean, I guess next month is going to be the last chapter for this arc. Maybe? Maybe one more to finish things off. And what is the likelihood that this leads to another hiatus?

[Xeogran]

And what is the likelihood that this leads to another hiatus?

Zero. As a fanboy of DB, I'm sure Toyotaro is eager to reach Chapter 100 and start new arc there. It also feels like the hiatus was planned well so that Chapter 100 coincides with Jump Festa in December.

[Vegetto95]

That was probably the worst chapter I've read in years. That was 45 pages of absolutely nothing.

The same tired childish antics, starring two of the worst characters in the series that covered just 5 minutes of the film. There's still 20 minutes worth of film left, this is gonna be dragged on for the rest of this year.

To be fair, that is kind of par for the course when it comes to the way Toyotarō's been writing and pacing the Dragon Ball Super manga over the past few years (note: I'm NOT saying that that's a good thing... quite the opposite, actually). Like, I remember feeling EXACTLY the way you feel with this chapter with just about the entirety of the latter 2/3rds of the Granolah arc. It truly felt like EVERY FUCKING CHAPTER was just 45 pages of constant, meaningless fighting that lead NOWHERE and did NOTHING to actually progress the plot to any real noticeable degree.

Now, I know quite a few people have made the argument that the pacing of that arc is GREATLY improved when you read it all in one sitting after it was finished (including Mike and his guests on the podcast episode from late last year that reviewed the entire arc), and yeah, while I do agree with that, and while it is entirely possible that that will end up being the case with the Super Hero arc as well once it's finished, Kamisama knows when that will be... thing is, that is NOT the positive argument the people who make it think it is.

I, or anyone really, should NOT be expected to have to wait nearly two goddamn motherfucking YEARS for a story arc in a monthly ongoing series to finish just for the arc as a whole to feel well-paced. The series is approximately 45-50 pages a chapter, one chapter a month. A MONTH. That's a LONG wait to see if something actually happens next chapter when nothing happened this one (and 45+ pages is PLENTY of real estate to get lots of story told, so there's no excuse for the story constantly feeling like it never moves forward for sometimes hundreds of pages at a time). The manga is produced to primarily be read one chapter a month when each new issue of V-Jump comes out, just like a TV show is normally produced to primarily be watched one episode a week when each episode first airs. Each individual episode/chapter should ideally be paced in accordance with that, NOT in a way that's ONLY bearable if you wait a ridiculously exorbitant amount of time to read all the chapters in full.

So yeah, I'm totally with ya. I'm getting real sick of Toyotarō's GODAWFUL pacing issues and the way he's been streeeeeeeeetching his story arcs out waaaaaay past the point of narrative sensibility (and to make matters even WORSE, it creates a positively GIGANTIC sense of whiplash when you read the whole Super manga from the beginning, considering how the earlier arcs that coincided with the anime had the exact OPPOSITE pacing issue... those earlier arcs just felt way too goddamn RUSHED). It's a FAAAAAAAR cry from Toriyama's damn near perfect pacing that was always frenetic and exciting but never felt too fast when Dragon Ball was running weekly back in the 80s and 90s, and more than anything, it's really just kinda sad and disappointing to see fucking DRAGON BALL of all things be this goddamn BORING.

[nato25]

Yikes this one was a snoozer. My only hope that it progressed more quickly or we could get regular gotenks as an adult, and it didn't even do that, we were stuck in complete filler town.

They kept pans can't fly shtick, that might be more appropriate for the mangs than it was in the series.

Gohan asks bulma to protect Pan? Maybe that was from the movie too but what does he really expect her to do? Bulma should also be staying as far away as possible.

Not looking like next chapter will wrap up the Cell Max battle either (hopefully I'm wrong on that).

[Xeogran]

Not looking like next chapter will wrap up the Cell Max battle either (hopefully I'm wrong on that).

Gohan Beast will certainly be a cliffhanger like Orange Piccolo was. Feels like it's now 2 more chapters left.

[Kazuya Mishima]

So yeah, I'm totally with ya. I'm getting real sick of Toyotarō's GODAWFUL pacing issues and the way he's been streeeeeeeeetching his story arcs out waaaaaay past the point of narrative sensibility (and to make matters even WORSE, it creates a positively GIGANTIC sense of whiplash when you read the whole Super manga from the beginning, considering how the earlier arcs that coincided with the anime had the exact OPPOSITE pacing issue... those earlier arcs just felt way too goddamn RUSHED).

It wouldn't be so bad but it's always the fighting that gets dragged out.

He covered the movie from its start up till when Gohan showed up at the Red Ribbon Base in just 3 and a half chapters. If there was any place to pad things out it was while pretty much everything was going on.

Now the past 3 and half chapters have just been fighting. There's surely going to be another 3 chapters left at least and that's all going to be fighting as well.

So there's a 94 minute movie of which two thirds of it is the story and the final third is all the fights.....then you get the manga, gets through the story pretty much 1:1 and then the fighting is going to make up two thirds of the adaptation.

Dragon Ball at this point has had dozens upon dozens of fights that they are all pretty much the same. It's not Naruto or One Piece, they're generally all the same kind of thing and it's always that which goes on and on.

[FortuneSSJ]

Goten and Trunks really are the best thing of this story in the manga. Didn't even remember Hedo had taken inspiration of their Saiyamen outfits for the Gammas.

Two more chapters to go. If not three...

I'm expecting one of them to end with Gohan turning Beast and I'm not sure if it will be the next one...

[Vegetto95]

It wouldn't be so bad but it's always the fighting that gets dragged out.

He covered the movie from its start up till when Gohan showed up at the Red Ribbon Base in just 3 and a half chapters. If there was any place to pad things out it was while pretty much everything was going on.

Now the past 3 and half chapters have just been fighting. There's surely going to be another 3 chapters left at least and that's all going to be fighting as well.

So there's a 94 minute movie of which two thirds of it is the story and the final third is all the fights.....then you get the manga, gets through the story pretty much 1:1 and then the fighting is going to make up two thirds of the adaptation.

Dragon Ball at this point has had dozens upon dozens of fights that they are all pretty much the same. It's not Naruto or One Piece, they're generally all the same kind of thing and it's always that which goes on and on.

It kinda reminds me of when he did the Revival of 'F' promo manga a few months before he first started Super back in 2015... it was a pretty damn faithful retelling of the film, and covered up until right before Gokū and Freeza first showed off their "new" (a.k.a. uninspired, lazy palette swap) transformations, which was almost exactly at the hour mark of the film, spot on 2/3rds of the way into it... and that took a mere three chapters. Three chapters which, to boot, were between approximately 25 to 30 pages each, much shorter than the current 45-50 count of the current Super chapters. THAT'S ALL IT TAKES!! And you compare that to how he's handling this arc, like... I don't wanna think about how he would have done the rest of RoF if he did it now (especially considering the whole Super Saiyan Blue Gokū vs. Golden Freeza fight really wasn't anything to write home about whatsoever in the first place).

Even when Toyo DOES try to give characters unique powers that go beyond the standard wuxia punch-kick-Ki blast that Dragon Ball really hasn't moved past since 1985, it still doesn't actually change anything. He wrote characters like Zamasu and Gas as able to create objects out of thin air, in an almost Green Lantern/Quasar-esque way in the case of Gas, and what does he do with those neat powers full of potential for interesting, dynamic use?? Eh, just create a bunch of generic blades weapons and toss them at Gokū and Vegeta, that's it. *yaaaaaawn* (The one time he created a train, or telekinetically threw it at Gokū, couldn't tell which, was slightly more neat and different, but it's the one exception, and it's not really THAT far removed from throwing shuriken or morning stars at them. So, yeah...)

And as you said, it wouldn't be so bad if it didn't go on for damn near ten 40/50-page chapters straight. The longest fights in Toriyama's original series took up maybe a half a tankōbon volume, as was the case with Jackie Chun, Tenshinhan, Piccolo Daimaō, and Majin Boo, and SOMETIMES about a full one with major battles like Piccolo, Vegeta, and Cell (with the one exception being Gokū vs. Freeza, which took up approximately two, but that was an ultra-climactic battle that had been built up to for over five whole volumes at that point)... and then you have the fights against Granolah and Gas, two characters Toyo gave us very little real reason to care about (ESPECIALLY so with fucking Gas, who kinda just... shows up and takes the spotlight out of absolutely buttfucking nowhere midway through the arc) taking up over two full volumes each. That's INSANE.

Like, I kind of enjoyed the added focus on Trunks and Goten earlier in Toyo's version of the Super Hero arc, but it does feel a tad unnecessary, and I feel like I have less tolerance of it because of how weird and confusing Super's continuity is. Like, the Super Hero movie was clearly meant to be a direct sequel to the Broli movie, but not only did the Broli movie never specify whether it was meant to be a direct sequel to the Super anime, the manga, or both, but in ADDITION to that, the manga just skipped right past the Broli movie and basically just went "Go watch the movie, herp derp" like it did with Revival of 'F'... but then it does its own adaptation of Broli's sequel for... some reason?

Seriously, why the FUCK are Tōei and Shūeisha going out of their goddamn way to create so many twisting, twirling, contradicting continuities? I would probably care about this current arc of the manga a whole heckuva lot more if I knew where it's actually supposed to fucking be placed in the overall puzzle that is Dragon Ball Super's ridonkulous continuity, and why the hell it even needs to exist as its own separate adaptation in the first place when the previous film apparently wasn't worth the time and effort for... whatever reason. It's not like it was before when there was Toriyama's manga, and Tōei's anime was a direct, parallel adaptation of it. That actually made perfect sense, unlike... whatever the hell Super is supposed to be. Like, are they just stalling because they're still coming up with the next new storyline, the way they were with the anime that led to it starting off with (terrible) re-adaptations of God and God and Revival of 'F' before FINALLY, after 30 fucking episodes, jumping into previously-unseen territory? Cuz that strategy sucked then, and it sucks now.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This one wasn't half bad. The most fun I've had with Dragon Ball in months.