Inclusivity towards women in Dragon Ball?

[Mireya]

But it's not simply scaring off international investors:
https://www.chinalawtranslate.com/en/fi ... -law-2016/

It's a matter of what they perceive to enrich Chinese own culture and masses, protect the core of their beliefs and strengthen the domestic film industry like I've pointed out, speaking of which, China has strengthened its own film industry, marketing, and young filmmakers are getting more recognition, so you're overestimating the impact of foreign movies in China's own movie industry imo:
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/ ... ml?lang=en

^ Here it's detailed that China showed resilience in the film marketing despite the pandemic and got up to 60% of the box office revenues.

https://chinafilminsider.com/trends-in- ... egulation/

^ This trend in Chinese films regulations also shows the restriction isn't simply random and for no reason, they employ quotas into movies and they need to obtain a movie release before being published.

There's political and cultural weighing in this and it isn't simply a matter of economic profits either.

You're quoting a 2016 article when we're discussing the issue that is far more recent - the bans en masse didn't start till 2020s.

Also like you've said - there are clear political motivations here that have nothing to do with protecting 'chinese values' or stuff like that so bit puzzled why you seem to be aware of it yet still in other paragraphs just recite the party propaganda line like it's gospel.

It is a big shift, but I think you're giving Toyotaro too much credit here considering the core idea of making someone other than Goku and Vegeta the leads stems from the Toriyama-penned film he's adapting. You make it sound like that core idea was a Toyotaro original.

Considering you concede in the same quote that his writing (the most important factor in terms of this discussion) and artwork are widely disliked, I really don't think Toyotaro is the force for good you're hyping him up as- Let alone the one that's gonna usher in a golden age of female characters mattering more in Dragon Ball.

It may have come off this way bit it wasn't my intention. But I definitely did want to underline the difference between him and even modern Toei versus the idiotic quotes we were getting in a not-so-distant pasts, or puzzling writing from Toriyama himself back in the day. I well aware of Toyo's faults, but he absolutely does bring a different perspective to the table being far younger and coming from the fandom background himself which the franchise can only benefit from. Especially in the workplace culture that used to value age above everything else and let's be honest, a lot of older people have... lets say antiquated views. Thankfully that is now changing around the world and even in Japan

As for Super Hero - it was Toyo who wanted to do a Trunks-focused story so yeah, the core idea of that came from him.

I think you're misunderstanding as I'm not defending it as a good thing, I said it's more complex and that you were oversimplifying by just saying they shot their own foot, and the 2016 article shows the issue has been going for a while and it's not only ever since 2020, which may have gotten more repercussions because of the increased tension overall with US and China, plus there were news from 2023 directly posted too, regarding economics and the stuff presenting the avenue of China's domestic film industry growth. And the growing awareness of China's political influence became a thing more apparent in the year you addressed. I'm not downplaying the negative effect, I'm just presenting a balanced perspective.

[Basaku]

I think you're misunderstanding as I'm not defending it as a good thing, I said it's more complex and that you were oversimplifying by just saying they shot their own foot, and the 2016 article shows the issue has been going for a while and it's not only ever since 2020, which may have gotten more repercussions because of the increased tension overall with US and China, plus there were news from 2023 directly posted too, regarding economics and the stuff presenting the avenue of China's domestic film industry growth. And the growing awareness of China's political influence became a thing more apparent in the year you addressed. I'm not downplaying the negative effect, I'm just presenting a balanced perspective.

But the situations in the 2020s IS very different to what came before. Yes the restrictions were present before 2020, just like in France and its film industry, but never to the degree of straight out banning films en masse with basically no reasoning. Other than a political trade war or domestic economic growth oppurtunities but these are highly speculative and too broad to really debate on it.

Anyway, my main point was that because of these (political) actions, western companies (or east Asian for that matter too) have little to no reason to pander to the chinese market anymore. Its instability and unpredictableness makes it pointless from a bussiness POV. If they can go all out of their way to prep their products to fit the chinese market/censorship laws and then STILL get blocked from the release at all with no good reason, then what would be the point and incentive for these companies to even bother?

[Mireya]

I think you're misunderstanding as I'm not defending it as a good thing, I said it's more complex and that you were oversimplifying by just saying they shot their own foot, and the 2016 article shows the issue has been going for a while and it's not only ever since 2020, which may have gotten more repercussions because of the increased tension overall with US and China, plus there were news from 2023 directly posted too, regarding economics and the stuff presenting the avenue of China's domestic film industry growth. And the growing awareness of China's political influence became a thing more apparent in the year you addressed. I'm not downplaying the negative effect, I'm just presenting a balanced perspective.

But the situations in the 2020s IS very different to what came before. Yes the restrictions were present before 2020, just like in France and its film industry, but never to the degree of straight out banning films en masse with basically no reasoning. Other than a political trade war or domestic economic growth oppurtunities but these are highly speculative and too broad to really debate on it.

Anyway, my main point was that because of these (political) actions, western companies (or east Asian for that matter too) have little to no reason to pander to the chinese market anymore. Its instability and unpredictableness makes it pointless from a bussiness POV. If they can go all out of their way to prep their products to fit the chinese market/censorship laws and then STILL get blocked from the release at all with no good reason, then what would be the point and incentive for these companies to even bother?

The restrictions of China's films industry have been in place for a while and are not a new phenomenon ever since 2020. It was moreso a continuation and adjustment from ones that were already in place before. You also say basically no reasoning while, again, that may be your perspective, but I've shown it's based on emphasis on domestic film industry, the marketing office on China and how it's structured, which are not random factors and had profit backings too as shown.

Not to mention that China's box office share in global box office increased considerably since 2013 and 2021 and many western movies were successful there like Avatar, Spider-Man, showing it has still a big potential for revenue. That may imply resonating to what they would or wouldn't restrict but if you want to speak of profit and economics alone like you had said before, those are reasons the overseas film industry have to still appeal to the Chinese market.


"China has a long history of banning films that are deemed politically sensitive, immoral, or insulting to China. However, the criteria and standards for film censorship are not fixed, but vary according to the political and social context, the market demand, and the artistic quality of the films"

Edit: notice that the artistic quality is ofc subjective and doesn't represent at all what quality is.

[Basaku]

many western movies were successful there like Avatar, Spider-Man, showing it has still a big potential for revenue. That may imply resonating to what they would or wouldn't restrict but if you want to speak of profit and economics alone like you had said before, those are reasons the overseas film industry have to still appeal to the Chinese market.

Except that with the more strict rules Avatar 2 may have been banned just as well, just 'cause. Like Eternals or Black Widow got. So what exactly is the reason for Disney to tailor Avatar 3 to the chinese market if they have literally no guarantee at all it will get released there? From a business POV, with a market this unpredictable they absolutely have to account for the film not getting released there at all no matter what they do. And thus budget the production accordingly (as in with no gross profit from China at all)

[JulieYBM]

Anime and manga have a long history of productions aimed at Otaku containing women that get to fight, so it would hardly be an issue for a Dragon Ball series to do the same. I don’t think a foreign market is the issue with why Dragon Ball has such bad writing for women—the issue lies in the culture at JUMP not supporting its female characters and using them to serve as fodder for developing their male characters.

[Mireya]

many western movies were successful there like Avatar, Spider-Man, showing it has still a big potential for revenue. That may imply resonating to what they would or wouldn't restrict but if you want to speak of profit and economics alone like you had said before, those are reasons the overseas film industry have to still appeal to the Chinese market.

Except that with the more strict rules Avatar 2 may have been banned just as well, just 'cause. Like Eternals or Black Widow got. So what exactly is the reason for Disney to tailor Avatar 3 to the chinese market if they have literally no guarantee at all it will get released there? From a business POV, with a market this unpredictable they absolutely have to account for the film not getting released there at all no matter what they do. And thus budget the production accordingly (as in with no gross profit from China at all)

The Avatar 2 WAS and had a still a strong release in China despite the uncertainties and the Avatar re-release in 2021 was also successful there. The market is unpredictable of course but whether they will care for the Chinese market or not isn't certain I'd say. I don't think the structure should change to cater to their culture. Iron Man 3 for example had a change in which Chinese actors were featured taking into account its market. Sure, it was before the more restrictive policies were implemented, but whether it should be done or not, I don't know, they have no obligation of course but considering Avatar 2 still was profitable enough there, it's not farfetched to think some things could be tweaked like in Iron Man 3 with extra footage.

[Mireya]

Anime and manga have a long history of productions aimed at Otaku containing women that get to fight, so it would hardly be an issue for a Dragon Ball series to do the same. I don’t think a foreign market is the issue with why Dragon Ball has such bad writing for women—the issue lies in the culture at JUMP not supporting its female characters and using them to serve as fodder for developing their male characters.

True, this China discussion is going off topic as it's not related to the overall argument raised in the OP about women's inclusivity, as we weren't even talking about DB in regards to China, so I'll stop by here.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

Anime and manga have a long history of productions aimed at Otaku containing women that get to fight, so it would hardly be an issue for a Dragon Ball series to do the same. I don’t think a foreign market is the issue with why Dragon Ball has such bad writing for women—the issue lies in the culture at JUMP not supporting its female characters and using them to serve as fodder for developing their male characters.

Or worse, using its female characters as nothing more than horny bait.

[JulieYBM]

Anime and manga have a long history of productions aimed at Otaku containing women that get to fight, so it would hardly be an issue for a Dragon Ball series to do the same. I don’t think a foreign market is the issue with why Dragon Ball has such bad writing for women—the issue lies in the culture at JUMP not supporting its female characters and using them to serve as fodder for developing their male characters.

Or worse, using its female characters as nothing more than horny bait.

Never not let it be said that if JUMP comics can make their male characters hot (Nanami Kento of Jujutsu Kaisen) beyond all logical description, and fleshed out characters with arcs and growth, then they can easily do the same for its female characters.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

Anime and manga have a long history of productions aimed at Otaku containing women that get to fight, so it would hardly be an issue for a Dragon Ball series to do the same. I don’t think a foreign market is the issue with why Dragon Ball has such bad writing for women—the issue lies in the culture at JUMP not supporting its female characters and using them to serve as fodder for developing their male characters.

Or worse, using its female characters as nothing more than horny bait.

Never not let it be said that if JUMP comics can make their male characters hot (Nanami Kento of Jujutsu Kaisen) beyond all logical description, and fleshed out characters with arcs and growth, then they can easily do the same for its female characters.

I don't know if I'd call the jump men "hot", but different stokes. As a cis guy I guess as can say that they can look movie star quality. But, yeah the female characters could easily get fleshed out respectable character arcs. Did you ever watch that YouTube video on the sexist story elements of My Hero Academia? I've never watched the show in question, but it was an engaging video and many of the criticisms in that video could be lobbied at Jump's history as a whole.

[JulieYBM]

I don't know if I'd call the jump men "hot", but different stokes. As a cis guy I guess as can say that they can look movie star quality. But, yeah the female characters could easily get fleshed out respectable character arcs.

I marathoned the Jujutsu Kaisen animated series earlier this month and I tell you what, Nanami Kento is so fucking hot. He's a former salaryman, so he has this air of responsibility to him, and he's voice by Tsuda Kenji, so he's like...oh my fucking gawd. His little character interactions really make him such a fun character to watch pop up and mentor Yuuji (and have cool fights with the enemy).

Did you ever watch that YouTube video on the sexist story elements of My Hero Academia? I've never watched the show in question, but it was an engaging video and many of the criticisms in that video could be lobbied at Jump's history as a whole.

I haven't seen that video, but having kept up with HeroAca I can definitely confirm that the series is very problematic—not just for its handling of heroes and law enforcement—but also its treatment of women. In particular the mishandling of it's transgender characters, Magne in particular. I find the the disposability of the female characters (Magne, in particular)—especially in a series in a magazine that has a sizable readership of both male and female readers—really disappointing.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Okay, that's legitimately dangerous.

He's basically trying to legitimatize suing companies for using diverse hiring standards and inclusion programs, and rewarding white men who "lost" jobs to people from underrepresented minorities by giving them the muscle to force those decisions to be undone.