Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 101 - Official Discussion Thread

[Kodoshin]

Dragon Ball Super has me thinking that whomever was editor to Toriyama during the run of the original series deserves a lot more credit than they receive, but beyond that I think we're simply seeing a case of a guy "losing his fastball" with age.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball Super has me thinking that whomever was editor to Toriyama during the run of the original series deserves a lot more credit than they receive, but beyond that I think we're simply seeing a case of a guy "losing his fastball" with age.

A big issue is that an editor's job is to keep the franchise going as long as possibe. As a result, a lot of decisions that get made are super conservative. Stories and characters are a little less about doing something creatively exciting and a little more about doing something that will keep the money coming in. JUMP is especially big on this philosophy.

[super michael]

Beerus being unsurpassed is such a series staple that when (or if, even!) he finally is surpassed, at least by the two main protagonists specifically, we can probably expect Super to be nearing its end.

Also, I staunchly disagree with all this "character regression" talk Re: Goku in this thread. Boo arc Goku is undeniably the most selfish, bored, and careless we've ever seen him in the original series; DBS is naturally following up on that. He's in the midst of his own midlife crisis and will make the most amateur of mistakes if it means pursuing a good challenge.

Character development and maturing are two different things, and not necessarily intertwined.

The only selfish thing Goku did in the Buu Saga was destroying the Potara against Kid Buu, everything else wasn't selfish.
Goku wasn't careless in his battles in the Buu Saga, he was even thinking about the future of earth when he will no longer be able to come to earth.

DBS Anime Goku is constantly doing and saying dumb things. There are episode that Goku isn't allowed to be smart, like in the episode of Beerus in a costume.

In DBS Goku is constantly forgetting many things, an example is Goku Black Saga. Forgetting Senzu Beans, urn and talisman. Even saying stupid things such as Senzu bean gives immortality.

In the TOP Goku was incredibly dumb, letting his guard so down that he can't react and getting upset at C17.


The list of dumb things Goku did in DBS is so long, that it will make this post too long.

[TKA]

Likely because of this idea that "there's always someone stronger than you", and Beerus is representing it.

Not "likely." It's explicitly for that reason. Beerus represents a benchmark for them to strive toward. That's how it's been since the end of Battle of Gods where he talks to Goku until now.

[TheSaiyanGod]

As far as the manga goes, I think people overblown the little moments where Goku might not come across as the smartest guy in the room

Goku overcame enemies through his battle prowess or outsmarted Vegeta in pretty much every manga arc up until this point. He broke Hit's technique by learning from the mistake Vegeta made in the Champa Tournament, he found the most efficient way to master Super Saiyan Blue against Zamasu, he awakened Ultra Instinct by reliving his master's teachings, he found his own way to evolve Ultra Instinct against Gas, etc

I think people get too attached to these little moments of training during these stories where someone else (be it Vegeta, Whis, or Beerus) picks things up faster than Goku when ultimately Goku is the one who finds a way to overcome an obstacle through of his genius in battle. SO

The problem is only when they make Goku completely oblivious to what's going on (in a way that doesn't feel natural), which I would say was the problem with the scene in Super Hero. The problem wasn't Vegeta discovering the most efficient method to improve (I thought it was a nice change of pace for Vegeta to be the one to discover the most efficient way first, instead of just following the trend), the problem was Goku being written in a way in which concepts he has seen or used previously seem to be completely new to him (and the fact that he acts as if brute force is the way to go, when he has already ''learned'' arcs ago that he needs to find other ways to improve)

[Jiren The Alpha]

When was the last time Goku in Toriyama's canon used meditation to get stronger? The answer is never, What Goku said too Vegeta in the movie made sense because Goku has never gotten magically stronger by just meditation in the original manga. He has always trained his body. Meditation has never help him defeat his villains, he mostly used it as a "warm up" before a fight. That's why he was confused about Vegeta trying to get stronger by meditation.

[super michael]

When was the last time Goku in Toriyama's canon used meditation to get stronger? The answer is never, What Goku said too Vegeta in the movie made sense because Goku has never gotten magically stronger by just meditation in the original manga. He has always trained his body. Meditation has never help him defeat his villains, he mostly used it as a "warm up" before a fight. That's why he was confused about Vegeta trying to get stronger by meditation.

I will tell you all the times Goku used meditations:

- Goku did meditation before the 23rd Martial Art Tournament, during his time training with Me Popo.
- Goku did meditation in the ROSAT to unlock SSJ Grade 2 and 3.
- Goku did meditation before the 25th Martial Art Tournament in the Buu Saga.
- Goku did visual or mediation training in early DBS Anime and Manga.
- Goku used meditation to figure out TUI in DBS Manga.

Then there is also the case of Goku praising Vegeta for doing standing meditation in the Cell Saga, before suggesting Vegeta to use the ROSAT. Vegeta was trying to ascend to the next level of Super Saiyan.

In Namek Goku knew why Ginyu could unleash Goku body full power and could only use 23,000, even though Goku could reach 90,000 without Kaioken.


Meditation is good for the mind and body.

[Mr Baggins]

The only selfish thing Goku did in the Buu Saga was destroying the Potara against Kid Buu

Or when he straight lies to everyone about being unable to immediately stop Vegeta or Boo. Or when he threatens the Supreme Kai just to settle the score with Vegeta. Or when he ostensibly "passes the torch" only because being some messianic superhero was never among his personal priorities. Or when he literally offers up Videl and Bulma to Elder Kai for a bribe. Or when he fucks off with Oob and ditches his whole family to invest in his new trainee just because he found the idea of fighting him exciting.

Just about everything Goku does in the Boo arc is motivated by self-interest or severe social apathy, and I haven't even touched upon shit like the Cell arc. How is this even a debate? What, do you think the author also lies when he mentions Goku's toxicity in interviews?

More importantly, this wise, ultra mature version of the character the #NotMyGoku crowd keeps advocating for just doesn't sound all that fun or interesting to me. Firstly, these are often the same folks that took Goku's "mentor" front from the end of the manga at face value because they fundamentally misunderstood his reason for doing that to begin with. Secondly, Goku is a vastly more enjoyable character when he's falling backwards, yet somehow making it work out in the end; contrast that with Vegeta, who is always moving forward from a maturity standpoint and playing the straight man to his rival's goofball antics, and you have a pretty colorful dynamic going on.

Dragon Ball Super isn't just the story of Goku, it's the story of Goku and Vegeta. Obviously they're going to write him in a way that plays to their relationship while extending the 'poison' we see from his characterization in DB's latter half. That's totally fine. That's a better alternative to self-seriously turning Dragon Ball's tone into something it's definitely not.

The only point made here that I'm willing to concede on is the meditation stuff from Super Hero.

[OLKv3]

When was the last time Goku in Toriyama's canon used meditation to get stronger? The answer is never, What Goku said too Vegeta in the movie made sense because Goku has never gotten magically stronger by just meditation in the original manga. He has always trained his body. Meditation has never help him defeat his villains, he mostly used it as a "warm up" before a fight. That's why he was confused about Vegeta trying to get stronger by meditation.

I will tell you all the times Goku used meditations:

- Goku did meditation before the 23rd Martial Art Tournament, during his time training with Me Popo.
- Goku did meditation in the ROSAT to unlock SSJ Grade 2 and 3.
- Goku did meditation before the 25th Martial Art Tournament in the Buu Saga.
- Goku did visual or mediation training in early DBS Anime and Manga.
- Goku used meditation to figure out TUI in DBS Manga.

Then there is also the case of Goku praising Vegeta for doing standing meditation in the Cell Saga, before suggesting Vegeta to use the ROSAT. Vegeta was trying to ascend to the next level of Super Saiyan.

In Namek Goku knew why Ginyu could unleash Goku body full power and could only use 23,000, even though Goku could reach 90,000 without Kaioken.


Meditation is good for the mind and body.

Goku even meditates in the DBS opening. Such an insane line Toriyama had him say

[TKA]

More importantly, this wise, ultra mature version of the character the #NotMyGoku crowd keeps advocating for just doesn't sound all that fun or interesting to me.

Co-signed.

It's just not very Dragonball to have a wise, reasoned, good-natured character who infallibly acts in everyone else's interest.

There's a reason gods in Dragonball are just middle managers and businessmen. They're people, and they have all the flaws that that entails. The characters who are infallible and good are explicitly kept away from influencing events in the plot—the angels.

Goku is a bumbling idiot who is good at one thing: fighting. He is a fighting savant. The other characters are in the story to make sure his love of fighting and pushing himself ultimately works out in the end. There's a reason why every arc the side characters are the ones running around gathering dragonballs and coming up with plans in the background while Goku is the one doing the fighting.

The wizened elder who does things for the good of everyone just isn't this character. And that's fine.

[super michael]

The only selfish thing Goku did in the Buu Saga was destroying the Potara against Kid Buu

Or when he straight lies to everyone about being unable to immediately stop Vegeta or Boo. Or when he threatens the Supreme Kai just to settle the score with Vegeta. Or when he ostensibly "passes the torch" only because being some messianic superhero was never among his personal priorities. Or when he literally offers up Videl and Bulma to Elder Kai for a bribe. Or when he fucks off with Oob and ditches his whole family so he could invest in his new trainee just because he found the idea of fighting him exciting.

Just about everything Goku does in the Boo arc is motivated by self-interest or severe social apathy, and I haven't even touched upon shit like the Cell arc. How is this even a debate? What, do you think the author also lies when he mentions Goku's toxicity in interviews?

More importantly, this wise, ultra mature version of the character the #NotMyGoku crowd keeps advocating for just doesn't sound all that fun or interesting to me. Firstly, these are often the same folks that took Goku's "mentor" front from the end of the manga at face value because they fundamentally misunderstood his reason for doing that to begin with. Secondly, Goku is a vastly more enjoyable character when he's falling backwards, yet somehow making it work out in the end; contrast that with Vegeta, who is always moving forward from a maturity standpoint and playing the straight man to his rival's goofball antics, and you have a pretty colorful dynamic going on.

Dragon Ball Super isn't just the story of Goku, it's the story of Goku and Vegeta. Obviously they're going to write him in a way that plays to their relationship while extending the 'poison' we see from his characterization in DB's latter half. That's totally fine. That's a better alternative to self-seriously turning Dragon Ball's tone into something it's definitely not.

The only point made here that I'm willing to concede on is the meditation stuff from Super Hero.

Goku didn't lie about not being able to stop Vegeta immediately, since he wanted to save SSJ3 incase of a emergency. Those are Goku words. The only thing Goku knew about SSJ3 was that it would shorten his time on earth, even Kaio was against Goku using SSJ3.

Goku normally enjoys a good fight, however that wasn't in Goku mind when Fat Buu was around. At the time Gohan and Vegeta was dead, so once Goku time is up, there will be no one to protect the earth. That is the reason why Goku didn't kill Buu, it was so he could teach and train Goten and Trunks so that they can protect the earth. Seeing that earth was in danger, I would say Goku made the right call. There was Golden Freeza an example.

Vegeta he was going to continue killing innocent people, if Goku didn't accept his fight. That is the only reason why Goku even battles him, however Kaioshin didn't want Goku to fight. So Goku threatened Kaioshin, since he didn't want to see Vegeta killing more innocent people. I believe Vegeta killed thousands of people and wanted to kill more.

The earth needed all the the help it could get, to defeat Super Buu. Therefore Goku decided to accept Elder Kaioshin to protect the earth and not because he is selfish.

There is no indication that Uub came with anyone, we know that Uub family are poor and saved up enough money for Uub to join the tournament. There is no indication that Goku kidnapped Uub from his family and he didn't take Uub with him against his wishes.


Goku was wise in Dragon Ball, even if all his decision are not perfect.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Spoiler:

When was the last time Goku in Toriyama's canon used meditation to get stronger? The answer is never, What Goku said too Vegeta in the movie made sense because Goku has never gotten magically stronger by just meditation in the original manga. He has always trained his body. Meditation has never help him defeat his villains, he mostly used it as a "warm up" before a fight. That's why he was confused about Vegeta trying to get stronger by meditation.

I will tell you all the times Goku used meditations:

- Goku did meditation before the 23rd Martial Art Tournament, during his time training with Me Popo.
- Goku did meditation in the ROSAT to unlock SSJ Grade 2 and 3.
- Goku did meditation before the 25th Martial Art Tournament in the Buu Saga.
- Goku did visual or mediation training in early DBS Anime and Manga.
- Goku used meditation to figure out TUI in DBS Manga.

Then there is also the case of Goku praising Vegeta for doing standing meditation in the Cell Saga, before suggesting Vegeta to use the ROSAT. Vegeta was trying to ascend to the next level of Super Saiyan.

In Namek Goku knew why Ginyu could unleash Goku body full power and could only use 23,000, even though Goku could reach 90,000 without Kaioken.


Meditation is good for the mind and body.

1. Meditation to control his ki first and then did physical training. Which is more important then meditation if he wanted to get stronger, but then again we do not know what training he did with Mr popo in the manga.
2. ? Not in the manga, unless your talking about him sitting down and thinking about how to surpass ssj when Gohan was training.
3. Like i said, warm up before a fight.
4. Toei and Toyotaro filler, I'm only talking about Toriyama's manga which is the one he is thinking about when he writes new stories.
5. Toyo fanfic, don't count, unless Toriyama wrote that part then fair.
6. ? In the manga Vegeta was just standing still and thinking about how to be stronger then a super saiyan, Goku said nothing about him mediating.
7. "Unless the mind and body is in perfect harmony your not gonna put out much power" Goku knows his body better because he has more experience and training with it then Ginyu.

Goku was questioning why Vegeta was mediating to GET stronger because Goku knows physical training is what gets him stronger and wins him fights at the end of the day, he said in the movie "Your body is gonna get soft if you atleast don't move it around a little". That's the dub, don't remember what he said in the sub. It makes sense for Toriyama's Goku to say this, not Toei's or Toyo's, i can agree on that.

[Mr Baggins]

There is no indication that Goku kidnapped Uub from his family and he didn't take Uub with him against his wishes.

Huh? I'm talking about Goku's family, not Oob's. Not once did I mention kidnapping.

Anyway, I don't feel like making a quote-by-quote breakdown about why you either missed the point of those examples entirely or at least misunderstood why they were unwise. You're picking a lot of nits, friend.

The bottom line is that Toriyama does not portray Goku as a straight-laced character. Yes, there is technically some nuance if you're really fretting over it, but a lot of you overstate that nuance to such comical extremes that I can't buy people saying they'd enjoy the story more if he actually was portrayed that way. As TKA eloquently mentioned, Goku is a fighting-obsessed buffoon and a good bulk of the characters' arcs are structured around Goku being a fighting-obsessed buffoon. To insist otherwise isn't dissecting Dragon Ball for what it is and feels dishonest as a result.

Goku's portrayal in the Super manga and modern movies has been completely fine for the most part.

[Basaku]

A big issue is that an editor's job is to keep the franchise going as long as possibe. As a result, a lot of decisions that get made are super conservative. Stories and characters are a little less about doing something creatively exciting and a little more about doing something that will keep the money coming in. JUMP is especially big on this philosophy.

Definitely true. But let's also not act like this was about barring Toriyama from delivering the next Seven Samurai or Citizen Kane, we're still talking about either slapstick comedies or fighting stories. And in that regard, the editorial influence/feedback actually did help Toriyama deliver a... worldwide phenomenon which is a massive achievement too. Would Dr. Slump or early DB ever reach that level without the editiorial-suggested shift to action? Or even better question - is early DB or Dr. Slump actually that more creatively exciting = better than the Z era od DB? As I can sure think of other titles that honestly far outdo & exclipse Toriyama's comedy writing level by a mile and proved it with worldwide popularity too, starting with Usui and Crayon Shinchan for one.

I just think that even if driven purely by profits/metrics, the editorial influence IS helpful as it provides at least some kind of a feedback and a creative challenge to the author's ideas. Better than none feedback at all like it happens with Toriyama's ideas now or happened during Buu saga which was clearly one of the weakest parts of the DB eras narratively. In the end it's up to the author what to do with the feedback and how to tackle it.

Plus... the entire discussion regarding the motivation of profits is rather tricky IMO as it basically applies to 99% of the population. There's only so many people willing to live piss-poor in the name of defending their creative vision all the time and NEVER ever going along with what's popular, in any shape or form. Of course there's the issue of balancing the creative and monetary side but once again, this is still usually in big part up to the original author who actually does the eventual writing/painting/filming and in the end can and does take the most direct decisions and actions regarding the final shape of their work and how it takcles the various creative and outside factors

[super michael]

There is no indication that Goku kidnapped Uub from his family and he didn't take Uub with him against his wishes.

Huh? I'm talking about Goku's family, not Oob's. Not once did I mention kidnapping.

Anyway, I don't feel like making a quote-by-quote breakdown about why you either missed the point of those examples entirely or at least misunderstood why they were unwise. You're picking a lot of nits, friend.

The bottom line is that Toriyama does not portray Goku as a straight-laced character. Yes, there is technically some nuance if you're really fretting over it, but a lot of you overstate that nuance to such comical extremes that I can't buy people saying they'd enjoy the story more if he actually was portrayed that way. As TKA eloquently mentioned, Goku is a fighting-obsessed buffoon and a good bulk of the characters' arcs are structured around Goku being a fighting-obsessed buffoon. To insist otherwise isn't dissecting Dragon Ball for what it is and feels dishonest as a result.

Goku's portrayal in the Super manga and modern movies has been completely fine for the most part.

Sorry about that, I misunderstood the part about Oob. I had a debate with another member that claimed Goku was bad, for taking Oob from his family. The other points I understood.

I agree that Goku cares a lot about fighting, however he also cares about people not getting hurt and dying. Goku showed that he didn't like it when Dr Gero was killing innocent and Cell killed innocent people over the radio.

DBS Anime and DBS movie Goku being portrait as a idiot, who can't figure anything out and forgetful is what I hate about modern Goku. They don't know when enough is enough.
Heck in DBS Super Broly we see Goku forget the senzu bean, he can use IT to Korin tower and get it but no he is clueless.

If I have to list everything that Goku does wrong in DBS Anime, the list will be extremely long.

DBS Manga Goku I don't have any problem with him.

[Skar]

Goku was questioning why Vegeta was mediating to GET stronger because Goku knows physical training is what gets him stronger and wins him fights at the end of the day, he said in the movie "Your body is gonna get soft if you atleast don't move it around a little". That's the dub, don't remember what he said in the sub. It makes sense for Toriyama's Goku to say this, not Toei's or Toyo's, i can agree on that.

I think the reason why it wouldn't make sense for Toei and Toyotaro to write is because meditation is a fairly basic martial arts lesson so they assume Goku already knows it. If this scene didn't happen, I don't think anyone would argue that a seasoned martial artist like Goku who has been trained by some of most skilled martial arts masters in the series never learned the benefits of meditation.

SH also has Vegeta talk about how Jiren conserves energy and attacks which was almost exactly what Vegeta said about Goku against Jeice and Burter. I'm not sure of these will be brought up again and maybe just something for their training scenes in SH since I recall Goku being caught off guard to the point that someone much weaker could hurt him only applied to RoF.

[The Monkey King]

Wow, someone actually going to bat for some of the dumbest lines in Dragon Ball history.

Anyway the major issue with the meditation scene in Super Hero is that Goku has ZERO idea what Vegeta is doing at all, he doesn't even identify it as meditation, he just thinks Vegeta is lazing around for no reason.

It was dialogue so egregiously awful that it was changed in the manga adaptation, the same adaptation that stuck so hard to Super Hero's original script that it contradicted the manga canon (Gohan vowing to not use SSJ anymore, Piccolo remembering his giant form during the Moro arc)

Also you're splitting hairs quite a lot as to what qualifies as "meditation" in order to satisfy whatever pedantic definition you have. Let's just take what Vegeta's doing in the movie as what it is and completely throw out the word "meditation".

Vegeta is reflecting on how he can hone his fighting style and become stronger that way, Vegeta is thinking about how he can become stronger. Goku thinks that is a waste of time.

The whole scene exists to point out that Goku is a complete buffoon who doesn't think about strategy and only thinks physical strength training matters. This utter stupidity of the scene continues with Vegeta going on about Jiren's "Amazing Never before seen fighting style!"

That overwhelmingly powerful Jiren... In truth, when it comes to power itself, the gap between him and us is not that big

Even during the midst of a battle, he keeps both his body and spirit relaxed at all times with the exception of the one instance in which he attacks.

Which not only completely contradicts how Jiren was portrayed in the DBS anime (which isn't surprising since the anime and movies are clearly in different continuities, but that's a whole different discussion) but is a style of fighting Goku already mastered when he landed on Namek...



Also you seem to obsess about how just meditation has never made Goku stronger... which is a strange strawman argument to make since nobody in this thread said that. In the original manga Goku knew physical exertion and reflecting/mediating would wield the best results, physical and mental training. Super Hero Goku had no idea about this. Which, surprise, surprise is EXACTLY what Whis comments on!



Absolutely contradicting the Goku who could tell when Vegeta was reflecting in order to get stronger and the Goku who reflected and thought about the best way to utilise Super saiyan, Super Hero Goku would go with Grade III like the idiot he is.

Complete and utter character regression super michael is right, how you can deny it is personally insane to me, but ooooh nooo perfect Toriyama-Sama can do no wrong can he?

[Miracles]

Goku does not remember the training with the gods [Korin, Kami, Popo, Kai etc] he had back in DB hence why his training with the gods [Beerus/Whis] now has suffered.Which was solely dependent on the spirit. Which is what Ultra Instinct is about. Goku was concerned about power in latter DB, controlling your battle power for stamina is not the same as having emotions under control [spirit/mind] when battling to conserve stamina.

[super michael]

More importantly, this wise, ultra mature version of the character the #NotMyGoku crowd keeps advocating for just doesn't sound all that fun or interesting to me.

Co-signed.

It's just not very Dragonball to have a wise, reasoned, good-natured character who infallibly acts in everyone else's interest.

There's a reason gods in Dragonball are just middle managers and businessmen. They're people, and they have all the flaws that that entails. The characters who are infallible and good are explicitly kept away from influencing events in the plot—the angels.

Goku is a bumbling idiot who is good at one thing: fighting. He is a fighting savant. The other characters are in the story to make sure his love of fighting and pushing himself ultimately works out in the end. There's a reason why every arc the side characters are the ones running around gathering dragonballs and coming up with plans in the background while Goku is the one doing the fighting.

The wizened elder who does things for the good of everyone just isn't this character. And that's fine.

Who was it that brought the Dragon Balls back, when Piccolo Daimao killed Shenron? It was Goku.

Who was it that brought a new guardian, that restore Shenron? It was Goku.
Plus Goku gathered the Dragon Balls, before the Cell Games started, a smart move on Goku part.

Who was it that convinced Elder Kaioshin to help them, by powering up Gohan? It was Goku.


Goku specialty is fighting, training and teaching others. However those are not the only thing Goku knows.
Don't let DBS fool you into thinking that Goku is not good at anything except fighting.

DB Goku figured out Kami human disguise and lies, while DBS Goku couldn't figure out Beerus disguise, Kuririn Taiyoken light and scream isn't Monaka transformation, Puar voice and Yamaha spilling the beans. Plus each character has their unique ki and scent, yet Goku couldn't figure it out.
To make it worse the entire episode was Goku being dumb.

[Basaku]

It's just not very Dragonball to have a wise, reasoned, good-natured character who infallibly acts in everyone else's interest.

True and characters like that most of the time work in supporting/mentor roles best anyway. But at the same time, is it very Dragonball to have a bumbling, mentally challenged cretin who never learns anything in the lead role? Because that's not the character we had in the franchise's original, main run.

We had a character who started as a naive, straightforward and not-worldy kid gradually growing physically AND also becoming a more rounded person too. It doesn't mean that he became infallible or that he lost all of his naive/reckless traits by the end of Z. But they were naturally diminished with time and experience through various events and battles he went through. Goku did grow and Toriyama wasn't even nuanced about this, he was straight out HAMMERING some of these points and lessons Goku went through to the audience. I mean, no wonder since a big part of the audience was kids instead of adults so obviously some points had to be stated more directly, this wasn't a primetime adult drama.

Saying that Super-Goku is fine and consistient with the franchise's past is rewriting history to me. Especially when the literal passage of time and character growth were big part of its original appeal, both with Goku and then Gohan. This "fixture'd", perpetual world-state we're in now, stuck in the same time period for a decade and with little-to-none character developement is a modern incarnation of the franchise. Whether it's better or not is a different discussion, but there are significant differences between this and the way the franchise was developed originally.