Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 101 - Official Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

What is interesting about this chapter is that it looks like this will be the beginning of Broly’s arc. We get to see how Broly is evolving through the lens of his masters.

And Gohan may be an important piece on his journey to find the balance he needs to access his full potential. There is a long time we don’t see him tutoring and he is quite good at it. Goten and Videl had unrecognizable gains because of him.

Speaking of Goten, I think I have seen that Broly’s tactic before! It’s the same that Goten used against Trunks in the 25th Martial Arts Tournament (Kids Division Finals). Nice reference.

In another hand, it seems Goku can’t stop being slow on basic level stuff. No wonder Beerus is doubting he is a father.

[Hellspawn28]

It seems like there is a time skip between Granolah and Super Hero given that Goku said that it's been a long time.

[Vegard Aune]

Freeza brought Broly to the scene, so it'd be fitting if Broly takes care of him.

Yup could see that happening.

Speaking of - they're obviously hinting that Broly will get some new form/powerup/transformation to utilize his full strenght so whaddya all think it's gonna be? New design, canon repurpoused SSJ4 or Beast like Gohan?

Well technically we already saw it with Kale when she did this same thing but I hope they go in a different direction. Also forgive me if it didn't happen the same way in the manga. Did not go back and read them

Manga Kale never even got her power under control at all. She went berserk, the other Universe 6 members forced her to fuse with Caulifla basically just to stop her from eliminating her own team, (like, Kale is the single most destructive participant in the manga, taking out like half of the contestants alone) and then we don't see her again until after they defuse at which point she is no longer a Super Saiyan.

[Basaku]

It seems like there is a time skip between Granolah and Super Hero given that Goku said that it's been a long time.

Wasn't it Tori who said SuperHero is 1 year before EOZ? Either way it's soon approaching its limit how much can still be sqeezed in pre-EOZ before it just feels ridiculous. 1/2 major arcs max IMO. Anything more and it will be just laughable and even the "Buu saga took just 3 days!" excuse won't help

[Hellspawn28]

Goku probably hasn't seen Goten, Trunks, and Gohan since Moro. That was probably 2-3 years ago for them.

[OhHiRenan]

This was a fun enough chapter, but Goku and Vegeta's relationships with fighting, training, and even themselves feels completely backwards. I just can't see Cell or Boo arc Goku acting the way he has throughout all of the Super Hero arc. It's doubly frustrating because Toyotaro keeps putting clear effort into growing Vegeta as a character, so to see Goku just suddenly regress and stay regressed is weird. Maybe I'm off-base here and making more of something that's not an issue, though. But Goku's characterization just feels off. Still eager to see what comes next!

[ssj3kakarot]

This was a fun enough chapter, but Goku and Vegeta's relationships with fighting, training, and even themselves feels completely backwards. I just can't see Cell or Boo arc Goku acting the way he has throughout all of the Super Hero arc. It's doubly frustrating because Toyotaro keeps putting clear effort into growing Vegeta as a character, so to see Goku just suddenly regress and stay regressed is weird. Maybe I'm off-base here and making more of something that's not an issue, though. But Goku's characterization just feels off. Still eager to see what comes next!

You're right on the mark here. Well, that's how I see it anyways. Why is Goku, the character that was the prodigy, the one who was a low class warrior that surpassed all fighters, excelled at everything, was always 1 step ahead, always was a fighting genius, always picked up on the little things, is now always behind the 8-ball on everything. The only explanation is that they need to make him dumb in order to make others shine. Like you said, regress and stay regressed.

[Basaku]

This was a fun enough chapter, but Goku and Vegeta's relationships with fighting, training, and even themselves feels completely backwards. I just can't see Cell or Boo arc Goku acting the way he has throughout all of the Super Hero arc. It's doubly frustrating because Toyotaro keeps putting clear effort into growing Vegeta as a character, so to see Goku just suddenly regress and stay regressed is weird. Maybe I'm off-base here and making more of something that's not an issue, though. But Goku's characterization just feels off. Still eager to see what comes next!

You're right on the mark here. Well, that's how I see it anyways. Why is Goku, the character that was the prodigy, the one who was a low class warrior that surpassed all fighters, excelled at everything, was always 1 step ahead, always was a fighting genius, always picked up on the little things, is now always behind the 8-ball on everything. The only explanation is that they need to make him dumb in order to make others shine. Like you said, regress and stay regressed.

Goku's full arc was done by the end of Cell saga. He already learned all the combat lesons, went through all the stages and finally passed the torch to Gohan. Until Toriyama changed his mind and decided to keep Goku but in order to maintain such a character in the lead position you either can't write anything meaningful for him anymore, other than merch-ready powerups, or gotta backtrack and make him relearn the same things over and over again.

That's what the reboots do too. Batman's been popular since the 1930s because we're rehashing the same story and the same lessons Batman/Bruce learn in every reboot every decade or so

[LoganForkHands73]

That was decent, few things to chew on for a change. First off, it's obviously gratifying to see that Beast isn't just a one-off, Gohan can activate it at will. Even in a low-stakes scene, Toyotaro manages to sell the form's outrageous power. You have to either admire Carmine's bravery or pity his stupidity for casually rolling up outside Gohan's house (which is also property of Mr. Satan, probably the richest, most powerful man on the planet) and blazing the facade with only two bratty superheroes and a cowardly grunt as support.

In general, it's nice to have a feeling of progression and acknowledgement of many important plot points that were left hanging, including: the remnants of the Red Ribbon Army, the Great Saiyamen, Broly's training, Black Freeza (Cheelai's comment is definitely tapping the fourth wall to reference some fans' fears that it would somehow be ignored), and last but not least, Goku's reunion with Gohan to witness the hot new transformation for himself. Goku suddenly showing interest in his sons' lives the minute they gain noticeable power-ups is... distressingly in-character, let's be real. Interesting that he rationalises his inability to sense Gohan, Piccolo or Cell Max because he was too focused on sparring with Vegeta. We've certainly come a long way from Super Saiyan 3 reverberating throughout the whole living universe and Other World.

I couldn't help but notice that while teaching Broly about the value of controlling rage, Vegeta is a Super Saiyan, wearing his Buu arc jumpsuit, and bearing a conspicuous bruise in the middle of his forehead... that all feels very intentional. The sparring match was a little bland though. There are some fun and dynamic parts here and there, but to think that we're still getting those awful old right-to-left flurry punch panels all these years later. Also, I'm not against the wacky superhero antics per se, but seeing Goten and Trunks take down human robbers for what already feels like the umpteenth time (probably because Gohan, Kuririn and even Goku have done their fair share in past arcs) is getting stale.

Lastly, I don't know why people are only just now noticing that Toyotaro doesn't draw Goku with a tree trunk neck. This is how Goku always looks in the Super manga.

[ssj3kakarot]

This was a fun enough chapter, but Goku and Vegeta's relationships with fighting, training, and even themselves feels completely backwards. I just can't see Cell or Boo arc Goku acting the way he has throughout all of the Super Hero arc. It's doubly frustrating because Toyotaro keeps putting clear effort into growing Vegeta as a character, so to see Goku just suddenly regress and stay regressed is weird. Maybe I'm off-base here and making more of something that's not an issue, though. But Goku's characterization just feels off. Still eager to see what comes next!

You're right on the mark here. Well, that's how I see it anyways. Why is Goku, the character that was the prodigy, the one who was a low class warrior that surpassed all fighters, excelled at everything, was always 1 step ahead, always was a fighting genius, always picked up on the little things, is now always behind the 8-ball on everything. The only explanation is that they need to make him dumb in order to make others shine. Like you said, regress and stay regressed.

Goku's full arc was done by the end of Cell saga. He already learned all the combat lesons, went through all the stages and finally passed the torch to Gohan. Until Toriyama changed his mind and decided to keep Goku but in order to maintain such a character in the lead position you either can't write anything meaningful for him anymore, other than merch-ready powerups, or gotta backtrack and make him relearn the same things over and over again.

That's what the reboots do too. Batman's been popular since the 1930s because we're rehashing the same story and the same lessons Batman/Bruce learn in every reboot every decade or so

The passing of the torch doesn't mean you make him a retard and regress to the state where Puar or Ox King know more than him or can somehow out wit him in a battle. Goku has gone through countless training methods, especially meditation. Yet, he somehow forgets that this is a viable option, why? So Vegeta can make fun of him and it makes Vegeta look like he is progressing, but they do it at the expense of an already established variable. There are examples of them doing this well. Vegeta goes to Yardrat and learns more than Goku. Great! Not because Goku couldnt, but he didn't want to.


Like you said. He's learned all these combat lessons. He should be the most intelligent, hell, even mentor the next group ( hint: Uub). But this Goku is just a joke. Like, the writers are intentionally making him look bad, or not progress, and for what purpose?

The one thing that Goku actually needs to overcome as a character stand point is his carefree nature. His ability to trust too much. Him being naive. Not going serious in fights.But dumb in fights? Not seeing 10 steps ahead? Not understanding the opponents? That's not Goku.

[Basaku]

Like you said. He's learned all these combat lessons. He should be the most intelligent, hell, even mentor the next group ( hint: Uub). But this Goku is just a joke. Like, the writers are intentionally making him look bad, or not progress, and for what purpose?

To justify his screentime. A story following almost exclusively a character that literally knows it all already (and thus should make almost no mistakes etc) is well, not that interesting. Toriyama knows it but instead of doing what he should have done, which is retiring Goku from the lead position and putting him in a supporting mentor role like you said for example, he decided to mentally regress him instead. I don't agree with that decision, it does nothing but ruin the character itself BUT there is some backward logic in it from a writing POV and in the context of an overall story.

Now, there are stories to be told about experienced warriors, often at the end of their lives, reflecting on their past, having regrets nonetheless or newfound doubts, as well as dilemmas about their diminishing status as strong fighters (especially in comparsion to the upcomers from younger generations) but Toriyama's not interested in Goku in such position. Or doesn't know how to write stories like that. So he's not going in this direction either, yet still insists on keeping Goku as the lead which unfortunately ends up in constant backtracking of the character

I mean Daima is probably yet another example of that, the author unable to let go of that 1 character who was pretty much all written up and done so the only thing left is to basically reboot and retell the same thing

[super michael]

Other anime that has the main character reincarnated as a new life form, they are smart even if they are main characters. Those anime are successful, even if the character is skill and even broken.

So if other anime can start episode 1 as a master, without regressing as the anime progress. Then why must Goku regress and even forget the things that he has learned? If they wanted to show Vegeta intelligence, they could have chosen Broly to be clueless about meditation, who we know Paragus only focused on brute strength.
But no they always have to make Goku the dumb one.

The main character doesn't have to be brainless, but Toei has a obsession with Goku being dumb at everything. I wasn't happy with how Goku acted in DBS anime at all.

[LoganForkHands73]

To justify his screentime. A story following almost exclusively a character that literally knows it all already (and thus should make almost no mistakes etc) is well, not that interesting. Toriyama knows it but instead of doing what he should have done, which is retiring Goku from the lead position and putting him in a supporting mentor role like you said for example, he decided to mentally regress him instead. I don't agree with that decision, it does nothing but ruin the character itself BUT there is some backward logic in it from a writing POV and in the context of an overall story.

Now, there are stories to be told about experienced warriors, often at the end of their lives, reflecting on their past, having regrets nonetheless or newfound doubts, as well as dilemmas about their diminishing status as strong fighters (especially in comparsion to the upcomers from younger generations) but Toriyama's not interested in Goku in such position. Or doesn't know how to write stories like that. So he's not going in this direction either, yet still insists on keeping Goku as the lead which unfortunately ends up in constant backtracking of the character

I mean Daima is probably yet another example of that, the author unable to let go of that 1 character who was pretty much all written up and done so the only thing left is to basically reboot and retell the same thing

See, I think Toriyama misses a trick here, because a protagonist who knows it all can definitely still be interesting. There are countless examples of extremely competent protagonists in film and literature who still manage to be compelling. Towards the end of the manga, Goku became a very wise figure who you could trust to usually make the best decisions, though he could still make mistakes. The main reason this worked is because we were often kept at arm's length from Goku, we couldn't always see what he was thinking or planning. But we could tell from his aura of confidence that he always had a trick up his sleeve. Once the climactic battles get going, we usually start to see things from Goku's perspective and we see more of his vulnerabilities.

Equally, if they want to tell stories about a dumber, more naïve Goku losing his edge, there's so much more they could do with that premise. The closest they've come to acknowledging it was when Roshi berated Goku for focusing too much on power at the expense of the fundamentals like good movement. Toriyama can keep Goku as a funny simpleton but also explore how his motivation to become the strongest came with some costs. But in the words of Tony Soprano, "no leeway, no compromise, just stupid fuckin' jokes".

[kemuri07]

This all supposed that there was any planning for Dragon Ball Super, which—come on we all know better.

The easy answer is: a combination of trying to make a 40 year old shounen character appeal to children and bad writing.

[super michael]

This all supposed that there was any planning for Dragon Ball Super, which—come on we all know better.

The easy answer is: a combination of trying to make a 40 year old shounen character appeal to children and bad writing.

Other anime targets kids, however they don't make their main character dumb. When it comes to reincarnation, the character is smart and never regress. They didn't make Goku dumb to appeal to the kids.
In the anime forbidding Goten and Trunks how is that appealing to the kids?

DBS anime did things that no other anime or manga will ever copy at all.

[Lukmendes]

This was a fun enough chapter, but Goku and Vegeta's relationships with fighting, training, and even themselves feels completely backwards. I just can't see Cell or Boo arc Goku acting the way he has throughout all of the Super Hero arc. It's doubly frustrating because Toyotaro keeps putting clear effort into growing Vegeta as a character, so to see Goku just suddenly regress and stay regressed is weird. Maybe I'm off-base here and making more of something that's not an issue, though. But Goku's characterization just feels off. Still eager to see what comes next!

Honestly as annoying it was for Toyotaro do that, it was Toriyama who started it.

While you can point out at Super-Hero, this started all the way back in RoF, where Goku was regressed for the sake of making Whis look more competent as a teacher, though it was less noticeable since Whis was teaching about god ki, it still did regress Goku to make more amateurish mistakes.

Super Hero is what makes it more blatant, since now Vegeta is the wiser fighter while Goku is the dumbass who just trains his muscles... Even though the opposite was more accurate.

Goku's full arc was done by the end of Cell saga. He already learned all the combat lesons, went through all the stages and finally passed the torch to Gohan. Until Toriyama changed his mind and decided to keep Goku but in order to maintain such a character in the lead position you either can't write anything meaningful for him anymore, other than merch-ready powerups, or gotta backtrack and make him relearn the same things over and over again.

That's what the reboots do too. Batman's been popular since the 1930s because we're rehashing the same story and the same lessons Batman/Bruce learn in every reboot every decade or so

And Goku isn't even learning anything new, and if anything the more time passes, the more regressed he becomes... Essentially he's Homer Simpson now.

[super michael]

Toriyama was the one that started to regress Goku as a character, that I can agree. Toyotaro regressed Goku as a character in certain ways.
However Toei they went overboard regressing and making Goku into a terrible and dumb character.

Same with Goten and Trunks, Toriyama doesn't allow them to fight once, but Toei goes overboard.
The same applies with Buu and Chi Chi.

Toriyama and Toyotaro knows how not to go too far, so it doesn't seem bad. But Toei they don't know when to stop something until it just becomes annoying.

[TKA]

I should add that it's funny how Beerus mentioned being surpassed. Beerus was introduced to the franchise 11 years ago.

Piccolo Daimao's first appearance to Goku flying off with Uub spanned just 7 years of real world time.

Beerus is by leaps and bounds the longest lasting benchmark in the story. It's interesting that his role is so clearly-defined that they've stuck to it for over a decade.

[Mr Baggins]

Beerus being unsurpassed is such a series staple that when (or if, even!) he finally is surpassed, at least by the two main protagonists specifically, we can probably expect Super to be nearing its end.

Also, I staunchly disagree with all this "character regression" talk Re: Goku in this thread. Boo arc Goku is undeniably the most selfish, bored, and careless we've ever seen him in the original series; DBS is naturally following up on that. He's in the midst of his own midlife crisis and will make the most amateur of mistakes if it means pursuing a good challenge.

Character development and maturing are two different things, and not necessarily intertwined.

[Lukmendes]

Toriyama was the one that started to regress Goku as a character, that I can agree. Toyotaro regressed Goku as a character in certain ways.
However Toei they went overboard regressing and making Goku into a terrible and dumb character.

Same with Goten and Trunks, Toriyama doesn't allow them to fight once, but Toei goes overboard.
The same applies with Buu and Chi Chi.

Toriyama and Toyotaro knows how not to go too far, so it doesn't seem bad. But Toei they don't know when to stop something until it just becomes annoying.

Honestly even if Toei can be considered the worst one of the three, I think all of them are just bad at writing Goku, which just sucks for Toriyama to be among 'em...

I should add that it's funny how Beerus mentioned being surpassed. Beerus was introduced to the franchise 11 years ago.

Piccolo Daimao's first appearance to Goku flying off with Uub spanned just 7 years of real world time.

Beerus is by leaps and bounds the longest lasting benchmark in the story. It's interesting that his role is so clearly-defined that they've stuck to it for over a decade.

Likely because of this idea that "there's always someone stronger than you", and Beerus is representing it.

Beerus being unsurpassed is such a series staple that when (or if, even!) he finally is surpassed, at least by the two main protagonists specifically, we can probably expect Super to be nearing its end.

Also, I vehemently disagree with all this "character regression" talk Re: Goku in this thread. Boo arc Goku is undeniably the most selfish, bored, and careless we've ever seen him in the original series; DBS is naturally following up on that. He's in the midst of his own midlife crisis and will make the most amateur of mistakes if it means pursuing a good challenge.

Character development and maturing are two different things, and not necessarily intertwined.

Buu saga Goku is a writing mess because his ever changing opinion about whether or not he can defeat fat Buu ("I can't", "Maybe, but I don't think I could", "Lol I could totes win") and whether or not he had something beyond SS2 ("I'll go full power against Vegeta so Buu doesn't gain any power, and I can't defeat fat Buu because Vegeta couldn't defeat fat Buu and I'm as strong as Vegeta", "Lol I'll just go beyond SS2"), just makes little sense in-universe, and the most charitable explanation I have for that is that he was feeling like being a lying jackass to everyone, just because.

But even if I were to ignore that, the problem is that Goku post-Buu is dumbed down in things like even basic training, to the point he doesn't know what meditating is, even though he should know it since he trained with Popo, and once in a while he's shown meditating as part of his training, which includes Buu saga itself... And this dumbed down in basic training is done at his expense so Whis and Vegeta look more competent by comparison, and that's specially the case with Vegeta, since not only he's now smarter at training, he's also much better at analyzing his opponent, since it's only Vegeta who realized all the things about Jiren's fighting style that makes him into a formidable fighter, while Goku's reaction to Vegeta's explanation make it clear Goku didn't notice any of those things.

So yeah, I think Toriyama is just being lazy with Goku and having him forget stuff he should already know, and he doesn't even re-learn the same lessons, and also isn't as good at paying attention to his opponents, so maybe he's dumber now than when he was a kid...