Freeza shouldn’t have been a transforming villain

[Osmium]

I feel that Toriyama making Freeza able to transform was one of his largest mistakes during the Namek storyline.

The concept introduced a bunch of negative aspects to the conflict; it padded the fight out excessively with what was essentially a bunch of pointless content with segments that essentially amounted to nothing since Freeza could get bored and transform again whenever he wanted and reset the power balance. Even Toriyama said it was a mistake to let Freeza transform so many times. It also ironically made the fight feel less dramatic than it could have since the implication of Freeza being able to transform is that basically Freeza is just messing around for chapters upon chapters until somebody pulls something powerful enough out of their ass to spook him for a few seconds and become arbitrarily stronger.

Notice that the story doesn’t even move forward until Freeza is done transforming. It’s not until the final form that Vegeta loses his nerve and is killed, and Goku shows up. It also made it so Freeza could not possibly compare to the hype that was built up, as he continually keeps playing around with the protagonists until the point that it just becomes boring and make him seem ineffectual.

Freeza’s transformed designs are rather lackluster as well. I think Freeza’s first form is highly underrated from a design standpoint; he’s very small and unassuming, with an almost cute look in an absurd sort of way. He’s towered over by his subordinates Zarbon and Dodoria, which makes it all the more surreal that he’s leagues more powerful than everyone else. The second and third forms completely throw this unorthodox design philosophy out the window and make him a generic scary hulking brute figure, which Dragon Ball definitely does not have a shortage of. His final form is better than the second and third, and it does a good job of subverting the increasingly monstrous transitional stages, but I don’t like it nearly as much as the oddness and eeriness of his first form.

I think the fight would have been much more engaging if Freeza was kept in his first form until the end. Watching the tiny figure of first form Freeza kick the absolute crap out of the Z fighters until Goku arrives would have been more satisfying and I think would have added to the horror of Freeza as this weird, unassuming looking figure hiding an ocean of power that simply can’t be traversed. It would have felt more like a struggle of survival against a nightmare instead of an endless back and forth game of increasing strength until there was nowhere left to go.

[WittyUsername]

I like the simplicity of Freeza’s “final form.” I actually think it takes the unassuming nature even further than his initial form. I’d argue that his initial form still looks somewhat devious to a degree with the horns and the reptilian looking skin. His true form makes him look more humanoid and approachable, even though he’s just as vile and sadistic as ever.

I don’t think having Freeza transform was necessarily a problem, but I do think he had one too many transformations. There was really no need for his third form, other than padding out the fight. Just have his initial form, his more brutish second form and his more elegant and simplistic final form.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I like the simplicity of Freeza’s “final form.” I actually think it takes the unassuming nature even further than his initial form. I’d argue that his initial form still looks somewhat devious to a degree with the horns and the reptilian looking skin. His true form makes him look more humanoid and approachable, even though he’s just as vile and sadistic as ever.

I don’t think having Freeza transform was necessarily a problem, but I do think he had one too many transformations. There was really no need for his third form, other than padding out the fight. Just have his initial form, his more brutish second form and his more elegant and simplistic final form.

Yes, i think it would be better if Freeza in terms of transformations was basically the same as done with Cell, given he only has three transformations himself, the monstrous insect like Imperfect form, his middle ground Semi Perfect stage and then the final Perfect stage.

[TheGreatness25]

I wouldn't mind if Freeza transformed from his first form right into his fourth. The second and third form were pretty useless. If Freeza just shed his armor and shell to go into his fourth form, I think that would be cool.

[Osmium]

I wouldn't mind if Freeza transformed from his first form right into his fourth. The second and third form were pretty useless. If Freeza just shed his armor and shell to go into his fourth form, I think that would be cool.

I think doing that would completely ruin the impact of the fourth form. It was so shocking since Freeza became increasingly bulky and monstrous only to revert to such a small, sleek form. It wouldn’t have nearly as large an impact if Freeza went from a small, unassuming form immediately into something so similar.

That’s partially why I got rid of the concept of transforming entirely, because as iconic as the final form is, it really doesn’t make much sense without the second and third forms being in between, and those themselves are pointless and feel like filler in my opinion.

Unlike some other villains where transforming felt integral to the storyline, there was no reason for Freeza to be able to transform outside of continuously rising the stakes to the point where it lost credulity in my opinion.

[WittyUsername]

I wouldn't mind if Freeza transformed from his first form right into his fourth. The second and third form were pretty useless. If Freeza just shed his armor and shell to go into his fourth form, I think that would be cool.

I think doing that would completely ruin the impact of the fourth form. It was so shocking since Freeza became increasingly bulky and monstrous only to revert to such a small, sleek form. It wouldn’t have nearly as large an impact if Freeza went from a small, unassuming form immediately into another such form.

That’s partially why I got rid of the concept of transforming entirely, because as iconic as the final form is, it really doesn’t make much sense without the second and third forms being in between, and those themselves are pointless and feel like filler in my opinion.

I would say that if Freeza wasn’t going to have any transformations, then I’d prefer that his final form be his only form. I can’t imagine Freeza without it.

[Osmium]

I wouldn't mind if Freeza transformed from his first form right into his fourth. The second and third form were pretty useless. If Freeza just shed his armor and shell to go into his fourth form, I think that would be cool.

I think doing that would completely ruin the impact of the fourth form. It was so shocking since Freeza became increasingly bulky and monstrous only to revert to such a small, sleek form. It wouldn’t have nearly as large an impact if Freeza went from a small, unassuming form immediately into another such form.

That’s partially why I got rid of the concept of transforming entirely, because as iconic as the final form is, it really doesn’t make much sense without the second and third forms being in between, and those themselves are pointless and feel like filler in my opinion.

I would say that if Freeza wasn’t going to have any transformations, then I’d prefer that his final form be his only form. I can’t imagine Freeza without it.

And this is the point where personal biases impact where we go from here. I personally like Freeza’s first form much more, so that’s the one I prefer to stick with, but I understand why others would want just the final form.

[Kaboom]

I... partially agree, I guess? I think the story actually benefits from having Freeza able to freely transform for more power, with him being the primary setter of that particular trend (Zarbon being its herald) before it became overdone. But I do agree that having four separate forms was waaaay overdoing it.

If I could magically go back and retroactively change things, then I'd leave Freeza with only two forms — his most-suppressive one we saw him in for most of the Namek arc, and then his true form under it, with the former maybe getting a slight visual tweak to look taller and more imposing, closer to how his 2nd form originally did. His fights against the heroes wouldn't have to change all that much, either. If I may do some impromptu stream-of-consciousness story revising here...

Suppressed-form Freeza would tango with Vegeta much like he originally did, barely trying while Vegeta is obviously fighting uphill (as their 530k vs 250k PLs would suggest). Vegeta still tries to goad Freeza into transforming, but now Freeza snidely tells him he doesn't merit that. The fight continues with Freeza staying in that form, with the "Kuririn gets impaled" and "Gohan gets angery" story moments still happening much like they originally did. But then Piccolo arrives, and his merged-with-Nail strength actually is enough to force Freeza to finally transform. He goes into his true form, and much like the original story he now soundly outclasses everyone else. The rest of his fight against the gang and then Goku would be virtually unchanged from there.

(Coincidentally, this is also roughly how I'd like to see Freeza handled in a potential live-action adaptation.)

I didn't miss anything in there, did I? Frankly I think TheGreatness25 is right in that Freeza's middle forms didn't actually serve much purpose story-wise except to make the power creep more ridiculous than it needed to be. Freeza's third form in particular didn't even stick around long enough to leave an impact.

[Vhanos]

Freeza's third form in particular didn't even stick around long enough to leave an impact.

Frost used that form too. Goku fought it. Was nice too see it again, albeit with a different person.

[AliTheZombie13]

"Ha, I can transform!" - Okay...
"Ha, I can still transform beyond that!" - Cool.
"Ha, I have a third form that looks like the monster from Aliens!" - Alright, this is getting repetitive..
"Just to let you guys know true fear, I will show my final for real form this time!" - ...
"Just kidding, I wasn't even using 20% of my final form final power!" - ...
"Did you know I have yet another form with 100% of my power?" - Die.

You think?

[SupremeKai25]

"Ha, I can transform!" - Okay...
"Ha, I can still transform beyond that!" - Cool.
"Ha, I have a third form that looks like the monster from Aliens!" - Alright, this is getting repetitive..
"Just to let you guys know true fear, I will show my final for real form this time!" - ...
"Just kidding, I wasn't even using 20% of my final form final power!" - ...
"Did you know I have yet another form with 100% of my power?" - Die.

You think?

Update that joke with DBS:

"Ha, I can now transform into a super duper new form after training for four months!"

"Ha, I can now transform into an even more superer dupererer newer form after training for ten years!"

This is why I can't take Frieza seriously as a villain anymore. Too much milking a popular villain for money, too much dead-horse beating.

Cell was a drastic improvement compared to Frieza. A simple villain, with a simple evolution scale, that is made clear from the beginning (from the beginning, it is made clear that he will evolve by absorbing the two Androids):




This is why I have always found Cell a much better-written villain than Frieza. Both Cell and Frieza are based around the concept of a villain who transforms into superior forms, but Cell's evolution path is made clear from the beginning and much more relevant to the plot than Frieza's (unfortunately Toriyama stumbled at the end with that Super Pefect Cell form that is one of the biggest asspulls in the entirety franchise).

[GhostEmperorX]

Just goes to show you that when you take a step back from all the noise and analyze these things in detail... they really don't hold up all that well once the dust has settled.
Props to the two posts above this one in particular for it.

[MasenkoHA]

When you have established a trend of villains going through transformations (the Saiyans to Oozaru as a holdover from Goku's Monkey King roots, Zarbon, to a certain extent Piccolo going from old to young) it makes sense that not only would the biggest baddest villain (at the time) be able to transform but that he would have at least one extra metamorphosis. I do agree the third form was pretty pointless other than to pad the story out a bit and let Toriyama remind everyone he's seen Alien.

[Majin Buu]

SNIP

Toriyama himself thinks Freeza should have only had two transformations so even the man himself would agree with this sentiment (and that says something as his sensibilities don't often align with the fandoms').

Me personally, I like how freaky and outright monstrous his third form looks. I like that it exists even if it doesn't add anything to the plot and is only there for like 5 minutes.

[Osmium]

I... partially agree, I guess? I think the story actually benefits from having Freeza able to freely transform for more power, with him being the primary setter of that particular trend (Zarbon being its herald) before it became overdone. But I do agree that having four separate forms was waaaay overdoing it.

If I could magically go back and retroactively change things, then I'd leave Freeza with only two forms — his most-suppressive one we saw him in for most of the Namek arc, and then his true form under it, with the former maybe getting a slight visual tweak to look taller and more imposing, closer to how his 2nd form originally did. His fights against the heroes wouldn't have to change all that much, either. If I may do some impromptu stream-of-consciousness story revising here...

Suppressed-form Freeza would tango with Vegeta much like he originally did, barely trying while Vegeta is obviously fighting uphill (as their 530k vs 250k PLs would suggest). Vegeta still tries to goad Freeza into transforming, but now Freeza snidely tells him he doesn't merit that. The fight continues with Freeza staying in that form, with the "Kuririn gets impaled" and "Gohan gets angery" story moments still happening much like they originally did. But then Piccolo arrives, and his merged-with-Nail strength actually is enough to force Freeza to finally transform. He goes into his true form, and much like the original story he now soundly outclasses everyone else. The rest of his fight against the gang and then Goku would be virtually unchanged from there.

(Coincidentally, this is also roughly how I'd like to see Freeza handled in a potential live-action adaptation.)

I didn't miss anything in there, did I? Frankly I think TheGreatness25 is right in that Freeza's middle forms didn't actually serve much purpose story-wise except to make the power creep more ridiculous than it needed to be. Freeza's third form in particular didn't even stick around long enough to leave an impact.

Having Freeza’s default be his second form completely ruins the irony and creepiness of his first form, being this tiny guy that everyone is terrified of. He would be way less engaging if it was his bulky second form threatening all his staff and terrifying Vegeta from a distance.

People in this thread are using Zarbon as a precursor to Freeza which is a good point - but I honestly think people associate Freeza with transforming for nostalgia and tradition’s sake.

The only villains who transformed before Freeza are Vegeta with the Oozaru, which was already an established concept and worked wonderfully since it gave Goku the shock of his life, and Zarbon - who did it to show that Vegeta wasn’t the only one who could transform. No other villains did it before that, so it’s not like a long standing precedent that people would really question if Freeza didn’t do it. The whole transformation concept underlying the Namek arc felt like a build up to Super Saiyan anyway, not anything Freeza was doing.

I just really don’t like the “fighter X outclasses fighter Y until fighter Y pulls something out of their ass to outclass fighter X until fighter Z appears and outclasses fighter Y and rinse and repeat” format that DB became obsessed with in later years.

The best fights in the series (Goku vs Tenshinhan, Goku vs Piccolo Daimao and Daimao Jr., the Dragon Team vs Nappa) never use this format whatsoever. Goku vs Vegeta (the best fight in the series in my opinion) somewhat uses the idea, but does it masterfully since kaioken has real cons to its use and when Vegeta becomes Oozaru Goku is pretty much done and it takes everybody else working stealthily to wear Vegeta down, to the point it doesn’t feel like a dick measuring contest in a way the endless Freeza fight does.

[Zephyr]

I like how his fourth form subverts the expectation set by the preceding transformations. He keeps getting bigger and more monstrous, to the point where Kuririn is horrified imagining what it might be like. Can't have that expectation (and that subversion) without those transformations being what they were.

Him going from "small form" to "other small form" doesn't pull that off. Him starting in a big form and going to a small form would remove the aspect of him being a tiny guy next to his big minions. Him starting off small and getting big for the final confrontation would deprive us of this great chapter cover.

The only thing I find narratively annoying about Freeza's transformations is how superfluous the 3rd form feels. I don't mind how long he drags the fight out and strings everyone else along, because him playing with his food is an important demonstration of his sadistic character. And if we're workshopping solutions to Freeza's transformation(s) "problem", I'd simply have Piccolo learn the Kaioken; with it destroying the user's body and Namekians having the ability to regenerate, I'd have Piccolo push the technique to new heights, which would either match Freeza's 3rd form or pass it up, prompting him to bust out his true form.

Also, it's hard for me to think of Freeza's sequence of transforming without being reminded of this old post from Herms:

...that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger.

For me, it's just kinda funny. Like many of Dragon Ball's serious moments, we're supposed to be taking it deadly seriously, but if you take a step back and think about things, it's can be far too silly to truly take seriously. That it manages to string me along as often as it does is great, and makes me laugh even more. That Freeza just has 3 transformations makes me laugh. Dragon Ball can be funny sometimes.

[Cure Dragon 255]

SNIP

Toriyama himself thinks Freeza should have only had two transformations so even the man himself would agree with this sentiment (and that says something as his sensibilities don't often align with the fandoms').

Me personally, I like how freaky and outright monstrous his third form looks. I like that it exists even if it doesn't add anything to the plot and is only there for like 5 minutes.

Well, in DBZ 5 minutes means over 10 episodes so...

Also I love that post by Herms and I am so glad its been preserved for posterity.

[LoganForkHands73]

I like how his fourth form subverts the expectation set by the preceding transformations. He keeps getting bigger and more monstrous, to the point where Kuririn is horrified imagining what it might be like. Can't have that expectation (and that subversion) without those transformations being what they were.

Him going from "small form" to "other small form" doesn't pull that off. Him starting in a big form and going to a small form would remove the aspect of him being a tiny guy next to his big minions. Him starting off small and getting big for the final confrontation would deprive us of this great chapter cover.

The only thing I find narratively annoying about Freeza's transformations is how superfluous the 3rd form feels. I don't mind how long he drags the fight out and strings everyone else along, because him playing with his food is an important demonstration of his sadistic character. And if we're workshopping solutions to Freeza's transformation(s) "problem", I'd simply have Piccolo learn the Kaioken; with it destroying the user's body and Namekians having the ability to regenerate, I'd have Piccolo push the technique to new heights, which would either match Freeza's 3rd form or pass it up, prompting him to bust out his true form.

Exactly, without the counterbalance of at least the second form, the final form doesn't have nearly as much impact. Freeza's transforming nature is a seed of tension planted early on. Zarbon pretty much exists to foreshadow it, but he also plants the false seed that transformations only make the user bigger and more monstrous. Considering as well the precedent set by the Saiyan Oozaru forms, is it any wonder Freeza's fourth form was such a sensation?

Kaioken Piccolo vs 3rd Form Freeza sounds sick. It's funny when you realise that each of Freeza's forms has its own "nemesis" though. His first form is challenged by Vegeta, his second by Piccolo, his third by Gohan, and his fourth by Goku.

[Osmium]

I find the fight between the non-Goku characters and Freeza to be less him “playing with his food” and more just plain incompetence, particularly when he’s constantly getting blindsided and getting the shit beaten out of him until he decides it’s time to transform again, so he can comfortably dominate, until something happens that allows the characters to be conveniently just strong enough to challenge Freeza at his current level, so he has to transform again.

Nothing actually happens until Freeza reaches his final form because that’s when things can actually have an impact because Freeza doesn’t have a magic “reset the fight” button at hand. Dende isn’t killed until Freeza reaches his final form. Vegeta doesn’t give up until Freeza reaches his final form because that’s when the story commands it. Goku doesn’t show up until the final form because otherwise there would be no tension at all.

It just screams poor writing to me.

[ABED]

I find the fight between the non-Goku characters and Freeza to be less him “playing with his food” and more just plain incompetence, particularly when he’s constantly getting blindsided and getting the shit beaten out of him until he decides it’s time to transform again, so he can comfortably dominate, until something happens that allows the characters to be conveniently just strong enough to challenge Freeza at his current level, so he has to transform again.

Nothing actually happens until Freeza reaches his final form because that’s when things can actually have an impact because Freeza doesn’t have a magic “reset the fight” button at hand. Dende isn’t killed until Freeza reaches his final form. Vegeta doesn’t give up until Freeza reaches his final form because that’s when the story commands it. Goku doesn’t show up until the final form because otherwise there would be no tension at all.

It just screams poor writing to me.

He's not a great fighter. He typically relies too much on strength, but he has so much of it so I don't know how you can say he was incompetent when he never HAD to transform except once. He did it to intimidate people and to amuse himself.

I agree about cutting out the 3rd form. The rest work, even the final final form where he bulks up. It's a lot like Trunks' transformation in that he has a lot more strength but no idea how to use it properly.