Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 102 - Official Discussion Thread

[Rafa Fast]

I personally believe that is entirely subjective
First, I really don't think saying "Mining content from a story that has already ended" works in that perspective, for me that statement fails right from the beginning because the original manga ends in a way which still opens up infinite possibilities for other stories.
Goku leaves his friends to go train a boy he just met, do you know which other saga in the series ends the exactly same way?
The Pilaf Saga, and look how much history we had after it.
The Cell Saga technically ends the manga very well, without suggesting that we will have another saga later, why did the Boo Saga exist? Because Dragon Ball is a success, a money machine, and this allows new stories to be told, Toriyama just ended it in 1995 because he wanted to, he was already tired.
Terminator 2 is acclaimed by everyone, but actually, Terminator 1 ends perfectly in itself, that film didn't need a sequel, 2 was only made because of the success of the first one, this doesn't mean that the sequel is mining content from a story that has already ended, but that universe still has the potential to yield several stories, same with Dragon Ball. A lot of people think that the stories told in Super are bad, and this proves that it does have stories to tell, regardless of whether they are good or bad. If the story ended in EoZ it's up to you to decide, Toriyama just took a break, yes, for nearly 20 years, but DB was always there.

Edit: it's still too soon to say that the events of Super are irrelevant, we still have to see the "new version of EoZ", stuff that happened in Super could be very relevant for it.

[SupremeKai25]

Super's storylines are worth telling.

Are we just supposed to believe that nothing eventful happened in 10 years, between Buu's death and Goku leaving with Uub? When in just a couple of days the entire Buu arc took place? Yet, in 10 years, nothing? Impossible.

Super has enriched the Dragon Ball franchise with its storylines, the Dragon Ball franchise would not feel complete without Super.

You can't just place a 10 year time where apparently nothing happens, it doesn't work like that, not in a series like Dragon Ball where bad guys regularly threaten the Earth and entire arcs can be crammed in a few days (as in the case with Buu arc). Did all bad guys go on vacation for 10 years or what?

I do wonder if DBS will modify the End of Z in some way, if it ever gets there.

[JulieYBM]

Well, no, I'm talking about what's necessary. Dragon Ball is a complete story. Nothing in Super was/is necessary; it's effectively a side-story taking place during a timeskip in Dragon Ball's story. It is the Optional Comedic Sequel™.

It going on longer than the original run (or having someone's absolute favorite Dragon Ball character ever, like Zamasu) is irrelevant.

The original comic is also irrelevant, so I really don't see the point in saying that. Putting aside commercial reasons, art exists for the sake of creating it to say something. Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Super as two separate comics both suffer from the ebb and flow of both artistic and commercial forces.

[Rafa Fast]

Are we just supposed to believe that nothing eventful happened in 10 years, between Buu's death and Goku leaving with Uub? When in just a couple of days the entire Buu arc took place? Yet, in 10 years, nothing? Impossible.

Well, to be fair, nothing happened in the 7 years in between the Cell Saga and the Boo Saga, so I wouldn't be surprised if nothing happened in the 10 years neither
But that is entirely because Toriyama didn't thought about a story at the time, he just wanted to end his manga, he could very well tell a story in between Boo's death and EoZ and make this story somehow relevant for EoZ, it's his universe, he can do it, if he won't, then Toyo or Toei does it, Toei literally made the Bojack movie and the Other World Tournament after Cell's death.
Let's not forget that before Super (or BoG) we had the 2008 OVA, yes, poor Tarble never became relevant, but the story is there.

Plus, Super has a storyline of its own, the events we see in each individual arc are important for the next stories, even the Zamasu arc, which is very independent, is relevant for the overall story Super tries to tell, if you watch/read the U6 arc and skip to the ToP you won't understand why there are two Zenos, the Full Power SSJBlue, and there are as well important explanations for the universe in that saga as Goku and Vegeta's Zenkai not working anymore and Vegetto's limit. Zamasu showing to be the first evil Kaioshin is also something that opens doors for future stories in the franchise.

If you think EoZ is a perfect ending for the series and nothing that comes later matters, it's fine, but even if Super or GT weren't made, I would be lying if I said thay this universe doesn't have the potential to tell more stories and expand its lore, DB's world is big.

I have this theory that Daima could be Toriyama's attempt to discard Super as the sequel to his manga, and even if that happens, I don't think it will take away Super's merit of having tried to expand the series' universe with new stories, just like I don't think Super threw GT to the lions, GT might be irrelevant for the story they are telling but it's important for the franchise, all of them are amazing additions to this universe, some people will like them, others won't.

[Zephyr]

Well, no, I'm talking about what's necessary. Dragon Ball is a complete story. Nothing in Super was/is necessary; it's effectively a side-story taking place during a timeskip in Dragon Ball's story. It is the Optional Comedic Sequel™.

It going on longer than the original run (or having someone's absolute favorite Dragon Ball character ever, like Zamasu) is irrelevant.

The original comic is also irrelevant, so I really don't see the point in saying that. Putting aside commercial reasons, art exists for the sake of creating it to say something. Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Super as two separate comics both suffer from the ebb and flow of both artistic and commercial forces.

Well, if you re-read my post that you quoted, you might notice that I used the word "irrelevant" specifically to dismiss "length" as a criterion for narrative necessity. Put another way, something being really long doesn't make it narratively necessary. I hope that clears things up.

Super's storylines are worth telling.

That doesn't mean they're necessary. I've enjoyed my share of Super stories, but that doesn't mean that any of them were specifically delivering on dangling plot threads that the critical consensus agreed that Toriyama never wrapped up, leaving fans wanting.

the Dragon Ball franchise would not feel complete without Super.

I'm not talking about a "franchise", I'm talking about a story, a comic book. One that very much was complete for decades before Zamasu was a twinkle in Toriyama's eye. If Dragon Ball Super was my very first anime, I could understand the sentiment though.

Goku leaves his friends to go train a boy he just met, do you know which other saga in the series ends the exactly same way?
The Pilaf Saga, and look how much history we had after it.

Dragon Ball's first arc quite literally does not end with Goku leaving to train a pupil. The Boo arc ends with Goku being a martial arts master to a student who will, ostensibly, be as dedicated to the craft as he was (unlike the false-start of a pupil that was Gohan). And he actually is going to stay around to train said student (unlike that time he died and stayed that way for 7 years). Both of which make the Boo arc better as an endpoint for Goku on the "student to master" journey than the Cell arc.

Not to mention, the Boo arc was written the way it was to be an ending:

So before the Boo story arc began, I said “Once this next thing wraps up, I want to end it no matter what.” Because I thought there was no way for any stronger guys to pop up, or for Goku to get any stronger than he already was. So my starting point for the Boo arc was, “This is the end, so I’m going to draw whatever I want!” I always liked dumb gags, so I made things comical, with the Great Saiyaman and Gotenks and whatnot. It wasn’t until immediately before the final chapter that I thought up the ending. I needed something that would signal this truly was the end, so I jumped forward ten years…

Also, I haven't read very far into Dr. Slump, but based on what I've seen said about it, Boo's design itself is representative of a "final enemy" for Toriyama:

towards the end of Dr. Slump there's a very typical genie who appears, who's called the "majin of the teapot"; his clothes are even similar to Boo's.

Interestingly, he's even a glutton who wants to eat people!

This is why seeing the story continue past Boo is always going to feel somewhat odd to me, even if I enjoy them. Dragon Ball starts off silly, gets more serious, then turns silly again at the end. I think that's cool as hell, as a work of comedy, and that doesn't work if the story continues past that tonal "full circle" moment. Super is more enjoyable to me, then, as a distinct work, one that supplements already-complete comic. That's the lens through which I'm evaluating Super its content, like Beast Gohan.

That you can imagine more stories taking place after the ending is fine. Anyone can do that, for any fictional universe, endlessly. There's no limit to the amount of additional stories someone could theoretically think to tell in any given setting. That doesn't mean that stories don't end, though.

That Toei and Toriyama did imagine, and produce, more stories taking place after the ending (and before the ending) is also fine. That doesn't mean the core story didn't end, though!

[Mr Baggins]

This is all bonus content. Post-game. That the series ended, and ended decades ago, means the enterprise is inherently one of nostalgia-mining. And if they're going to do that, they might as well put something of a spin on it.

Agreed, and I've said as much myself. When the entire premise of Super is "what if X and Y happened in this random 10 year timeskip before the epilogue", it's clearly not asking for a level of scrutiny beyond its scope as a midquel. I think there's an argument to be made that it builds upon the original to some degree, but it certainly wasn't meant to supersede it.

With that said, I'd hesitate to classify Beast as some new spin on an old idea – at least not to the same extent that Super had done previously. It's more just a straight throwback in Super Hero, though I've always liked how tongue-in-cheek it looked and feel there's potential to move it in an interesting direction.

Gohan going rage mode on command now is something genuinely new, at least.

[TKA]

We are mining content from a series that ended 30 years ago.

Yeah, I don't know exactly what people are expecting from Super, on the whole. It, like GT before it, is a superfluous 'victory lap' after the ending happened.

Though you are in agreement with my take, I cannot sanction GT being thrown into the mix.

GT was made without Toriyama. Concessions were made for stories from writers I don’t know. Super is concessions being made for more zany Toriyama shit, which I am always down for.

I’d be remiss not to mention that many people think Vegeta developed during the Moro arc (I tend to vehemently disagree and think it’s all just a retread of his development in the Buu arc, but that’s neither here nor there). Something of value even in the non-Toriyama-as-head-honcho section of the story.

[Rafa Fast]

Goku leaves his friends to go train a boy he just met, do you know which other saga in the series ends the exactly same way?
The Pilaf Saga, and look how much history we had after it.

Dragon Ball's first arc quite literally does not end with Goku leaving to train a pupil. The Boo arc ends with Goku being a martial arts master to a student who will, ostensibly, be as dedicated to the craft as he was (unlike the false-start of a pupil that was Gohan). And he actually is going to stay around to train said student (unlike that time he died and stayed that way for 7 years). Both of which make the Boo arc better as an endpoint for Goku on the "student to master" journey than the Cell arc.

Well, sorry, I forgot to be more specific, what I meant was
EoZ ends with master Goku leaving to train a boy he just met
Pilaf ends with Goku leaving, he's a boy who the Master Kame Sennin just met and he's going to train him.
That's what I meant, it's almost exactly the same thing except that in the former the initiative came from the Master, and not from the pupil.

Not to mention, the Boo arc was written the way it was to be an ending:

So before the Boo story arc began, I said “Once this next thing wraps up, I want to end it no matter what.” Because I thought there was no way for any stronger guys to pop up, or for Goku to get any stronger than he already was. So my starting point for the Boo arc was, “This is the end, so I’m going to draw whatever I want!” I always liked dumb gags, so I made things comical, with the Great Saiyaman and Gotenks and whatnot. It wasn’t until immediately before the final chapter that I thought up the ending. I needed something that would signal this truly was the end, so I jumped forward ten years…

This is why seeing the story continue past Boo is always going to feel somewhat odd to me, even if I enjoy them. Dragon Ball starts off silly, gets more serious, then turns silly again at the end. I think that's cool as hell, as a work of comedy, and that doesn't work if the story continues past that tonal "full circle" moment. Super is more enjoyable to me, then, as a distinct work, one that supplements already-complete comic. That's the lens through which I'm evaluating Super its content, like Beast Gohan.

That you can imagine more stories taking place after the ending is fine. Anyone can do that, for any fictional universe, endlessly. There's no limit to the amount of additional stories someone could theoretically think to tell in any given setting. That doesn't mean that stories don't end, though.

That Toei and Toriyama did imagine, and produce, more stories taking place after the ending (and before the ending) is also fine. That doesn't mean the core story didn't end, though!

That's a fact, as I said, Toriyama did wanted to end his manga, so it's completely fair that the Boo arc was thought as the final arc, he was tired, so by that perspective, indeed, Super continues a story that is already complete (at the same time it doesn't lol)
But it's a fact that this final arc ends exactly like the first arc of the series, it still opens the doors for more future stories, but these stories are told under a different label, a clearly different series.

That's why I think it's subjective and I don't share that same feeling you have, because Super is Super, it is its own separate storyline, I believe i would agree if Super was rather news chapters of the original manga (could that be possible?) or if it was called "Dragon Ball", in short, if they tried to make it as part of that same work done way back in the 80's/90's, but just the fact that they made it into a separate brand pretty much proves that what they are doing is something different, it's new content with the same world and characters, but it's not the same series, the original manga is over and what you're seeing is a new manga rather than a new story.
And Super being actually a midquel only adds to this, because it pretty much falls in the same territory of the 2008 OVA, you can see that is clearly not part of the original work, so in summary, Super is in fact this:

a distinct work

But I'm not sure if it can be this:

supplements already-complete comic

I don't think a separate work that is literally under a separate brand can be a "supplement" to a comic released 30 years ago, I think actual "supplements" could be stuff as the Mirai Trunks special chapter and the old movies, they were thoughout as "extras" for the main series and were all under the same brand.

Also, there are some who think that the ToP is a perfect ending at least for the Super TV series, Toei thought of it as the final arc of the show and there is that whole thing about Goku surpassing the gods, it makes sense, but that is a different subject.

[capsulecorp]

You can't just place a 10 year time where apparently nothing happens, it doesn't work like that, not in a series like Dragon Ball where bad guys regularly threaten the Earth and entire arcs can be crammed in a few days (as in the case with Buu arc). Did all bad guys go on vacation for 10 years or what?

picc wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 10:46 pm
The instant you stop thinking of DBS as something that's actually happening in a real alternate dimension, and start thinking of it as the creative hobby of an old Japanese guy who's just having fun, questions like these become a lot easier to answer for yourself.

[Rafa Fast]

picc wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2024 10:46 pm
The instant you stop thinking of DBS as something that's actually happening in a real alternate dimension, and start thinking of it as the creative hobby of an old Japanese guy who's just having fun, questions like these become a lot easier to answer for yourself.

Just forgot to say that this old japanese guy is mostly only doing it for money

[TKA]

Just forgot to say that this old japanese guy is mostly only doing it for money

Under capitalism, everything we do is for money.

However, Toriyama is already so rich, and has been stupid rich for most of his life now that he doesn't have to do the same rat race most of humanity has to do. He walked away from Dragonball for 20 years. Money is nice, but based on the Dragonball Evolution --> Battle of Gods progression of events, it seems like he's in this more for the chance to shepherd his baby, rather than leave it to soulless corporate goons who'll run it into the ground.

But I'm not in the man's head, so I can't say for sure. But to say he's just in it for the money seems counterfactual given what we know.

[Miracles]

But Gohan exploded against Radditz when he got angry. Radditz noted that his power changes with his emotions. Against Vegeta and Nappa, Piccolo said if Gohan put his mind to it his power surpasses his [Piccolo uses a similar line about Goahn in Super Hero]. Against Second form Freeza, Gohan snapped and drew out all his power. Cell purposely made Gohan angry, ripped into SSJ2. In the Buu Saga Goku also told Gohan to get mad so he could release all his true potential and he wouldn't lose to anyone in the entire world. Vegeta himself clowned Gohan for being a slacker in his training but he said there is no telling what could happen when Gohan snaps into a frenzy. Beast Gohan is no different, his rage just released all his true potential/full power again like always.

So the history of Gohan's rage boost is consistent but the key to rage unlocking his power is Gohan always needs someone in danger right in front of him. Radditz; it was Goku, Freeza, it was Krillin, Cell it was Android 16, in Super Hero it was Pan in trouble awakening Gohan's power [SSJ/Ultimate mode] and then finally Piccolo getting beat up by Cell Max, unlocked Beast. This is why in the Buu saga his rage didn't awaken his true potential so Elder Kai did instead.

There is no bad writing, it's pretty consistent throughout Dragon ball and Super Hero concerning Gohan's rage boosts.

[The Monkey King]

In the Buu Saga Goku also told Gohan to get mad so he could release all his true potential and he wouldn't lose to anyone in the entire world.

You do realise Goku and Vegeta's words were just building up to the reveal that Gohan couldn't get anymore meaningful rage boost power-ups?

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

The rage boost factor of Gohan was completely gone in the Buu saga, hence why he had to get his potential unleashed beyond his limits.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P10.1-5
Context: Elder Kaioshin explains his ‘ability’
Elder Kaioshin: “With my psychic powers, I can take the hidden power which anyone has, no matter how amazing a master they may be, and draw it wa~~ay, wa~~ay out above their limits. Ehehehehe…Have you ever heard of an ability like that?”

So the history of Gohan's rage boost is consistent but the key to rage unlocking his power is Gohan always needs someone in danger right in front of him.

Soooo... where was Beast Gohan when Buu was beating Shin to death right in front of his eyes?

Oh right, he didn't get a rage boost of any sort, his kick did nothing to Fat Buu and then Buu almost killed him effortlessly...

Even when Gohan did get a rage induced power up and transformed in to a SSJ2 because of that, Vegeta wasn't impressed.

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P3.2
Context: before Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan 2
Gohan: “Well then, I’ll become one, just like you want, though I don’t know why…To top it off, should I go so far as to become a Super Saiyan that has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall?”

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”

This super-hidden-rage-potential-Gohan Goku and Vegeta were speculating about, quite simply didn't exist in the Buu saga.

There is no bad writing.

Your right, it's not bad it's terrible

But at it's core that will always be the issue with Beast, you can't let a genie out of its bottle twice. Toriyama already gave Gohan a transformation which paid off all of his rage boosts during the Cell Games.

Even in BoG and RoF there were no allusions to Gohan still having this massive latent potential ready to be awakened by rage, hell Vegeta stole Gohan's rage boosting gimmick with the "My Bulma!" scene in BoG.

[Mr Baggins]

You do realise Goku and Vegeta's words were just building up to the reveal that Gohan couldn't get anymore meaningful rage boost power-ups?

You completely misinterpreted that line. What Gohan is saying is that even though he feels anger, he can't get angry like he could back then. He's stuttering and sweating and shitting himself and obviously isn't flying into a rage like he did during the Cell Games.

It's mentioned multiple times in the Boo arc that Gohan's rage power-up was an option available to him, provided that he had a trigger for it. It's disingenuous to imply that's not the case just because he chose a different route in that particular story.

[Miracles]

In the Buu Saga Goku also told Gohan to get mad so he could release all his true potential and he wouldn't lose to anyone in the entire world.

You do realise Goku and Vegeta's words were just building up to the reveal that Gohan couldn't get anymore meaningful rage boost power-ups?

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

The rage boost factor of Gohan was completely gone in the Buu saga, hence why he had to get his potential unleashed beyond his limits.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P10.1-5
Context: Elder Kaioshin explains his ‘ability’
Elder Kaioshin: “With my psychic powers, I can take the hidden power which anyone has, no matter how amazing a master they may be, and draw it wa~~ay, wa~~ay out above their limits. Ehehehehe…Have you ever heard of an ability like that?”

Gohan stating it was not like how it was "back then" against Cell is not the same as "I can't get a rage boosts anymore." Which will just bring us back to my canonical point again how Gohan needs someone in danger; IE literally in a life death situation.

So the history of Gohan's rage boost is consistent but the key to rage unlocking his power is Gohan always needs someone in danger right in front of him.

Soooo... where was Beast Gohan when Buu was beating Shin to death right in front of his eyes?

Oh right, he didn't get a rage boost of any sort, his kick did nothing to Fat Buu and then Buu almost killed him effortlessly...

Even when Gohan did get a rage induced power up and transformed in to a SSJ2 because of that, Vegeta wasn't impressed.

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P3.2
Context: before Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan 2
Gohan: “Well then, I’ll become one, just like you want, though I don’t know why…To top it off, should I go so far as to become a Super Saiyan that has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall?”

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”

This super-hidden-rage-potential-Gohan Goku and Vegeta were speculating about, quite simply didn't exist in the Buu saga.

It does exist hence why Goku and Vegeta state themselves despite his lack of training that Gohan could go into a frenzy and be the strongest. Secondly, Shin wasn't getting beaten to death before Gohan. Not like Freeza did Krillin, Cell stepped on 16's head, Gohan thought Piccolo was dead. Goku was literally getting beaten to death by Radditz. Pan [like all the examples] was helplessly in danger. Shin was actually putting up a fight for a while before getting hammered. There needs to be a trigger for Gohan.

BTW you have quotes way out of context there too. Gohan going SSJ2 and Vegeta not being impressed by his power because of lack of training was not rage induced. Not the same situation Goku was talking about.

There is no bad writing.

Your right, it's not bad it's terrible

But at it's core that will always be the issue with Beast, you can't let a genie out of its bottle twice. Toriyama already gave Gohan a transformation which paid off all of his rage boosts during the Cell Games.

Even in BoG and RoF there were no allusions to Gohan still having this massive latent potential ready to be awakened by rage, hell Vegeta stole Gohan's rage boosting gimmick with the "My Bulma!" scene in BoG.

This is also headcanon. No where was it stated that all of Gohan's rage boost was used.

[Skar]

It wasn't just the Buu saga but Gohan never had another rage boost throughout Super despite all the times the Earth or universe was in danger. Likely the only reason he had one in Super Hero was because Toriyama was convinced to give him a bigger role and probably couldn't think if anything else. Imagine if he barely did anything in GT then had a massive rage boost and unlocked a new exclusive form against Omega Shenron surpassing SSJ4 Goku. I guess you could argue it would've been funny but I can't see many fans arguing it was good writing.

[The Monkey King]

You completely misinterpreted that line. What Gohan is saying is that even though he feels anger, he can't get angry like he could back then. He's stuttering and sweating and shitting himself and obviously isn't flying into a rage like he did during the Cell Games.

Okay, but then Gohan is put into a situation similar to when his rage boosts occured in the past (The supreme Kai about to be killed by Babidi and Buu) and he didn't get any rage boost at all...

It's mentioned multiple times in the Boo arc that Gohan's rage power-up was an option available to him, provided that he had a trigger for it. It's disingenuous to imply that's not the case just because he chose a different route in that particular story.

Once Gohan says he can't get rage boosts like he did before, no character brings up Gohan's rage boosts as an option again.

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”

Notice that Goku doesn't say anything about Gohan getting mad to defeat Buu, he straight up doubts he can.

It does exist hence why Goku and Vegeta state themselves despite his lack of training that Gohan could go into a frenzy and be the strongest.

It was building up to a plot twist, like when Tien thought Goku could defeat Freeza because still had kaio-ken in his back pocket when he was mistaken.

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P14.2-5
Tenshinhan: "There’s nothing to worry about. Goku will win this match…Aren't you forgetting about the Kaio-Ken? As he is now, Goku is able to endure a maximum of up to about 10 times his power, right?"
Kaio: "Unfortunately... That Ten-Fold Kaio-Ken is what Goku is using now..."

Goku and Vegeta were simply mistaken.

Goku, Vegeta and Tien were voicing the expectations of the audience (Goku and Gohan still having trump cards up their sleeves) then Toriyama subverted those expectations with a reveal to the contrary.

Secondly, Shin wasn't getting beaten to death before Gohan.

Nice moving goalposts, I thought you said Gohan just had to see someone in danger.
Anyway no, Shin was dead to rights, Babidi was literally about to kill him before Gohan intervened.
Funnily enough, in the DBS manga being in the exact same scenario was enough for Future Trunks to get a SSJ2 rage boost power up in his timeline.

BTW you have quotes way out of context there too. Gohan going SSJ2 and Vegeta not being impressed by his power because of lack of training was not rage induced. Not the same situation Goku was talking about.

Gohan begins to transform into a SSJ2 the next chapter after a chapter titled "Gohan gets angry" he was still worked up after what Spopovich did to Videl. If Gohan could still transform into a SSJ2 without any emotional motivation he would've done so against Dabura and Fat Buu.

It's also funny that you mention Gohan's lack of training, because all of Gohan's rage boosts prior to SSJ2 weren't enough the defeat the person he was fighting. It's only after training with Goku is that he finally had a rage boost that he could utilise effectively. Lack of proper training is why Future Gohan died miserably.

The Buu saga framed Gohan not training during the 7 year timeskip as a bad thing, if he just needed a rage boost to leap frog everyone again it would ruin that narrative entirely.

This is also headcanon. No where was it stated that all of Gohan's rage boost was used.

Gohan finds out Buu killed his mother before fighting him
No Rage boost

Buu absorbs Goten, Piccolo and Trunks right before Gohan's eyes
No rage boost

Buutenks fires a ki blast intending to kill Dende and Hercule
No rage boost

Buutenks is literally about to destroy the entire planet
No rage boost

Beerus is literally about to destroy the entire planet, in turn killing his wife and unborn child
No rage boost

In the DBS anime, Freeza killed Piccolo right in front of Gohan's eyes
No rage boost

Freeza actually destroys the entire planet, in turn killing his wife and child
No rage boost

In the DBS manga Moro impales Goku and almost kills all the Z-fighters
No rage boost

So between the ages of 9 - 27 and several story arcs Gohan didn't have a single rage boost power up, but according to you this is good "consistent" writing...?

But in Super Hero a rusty Gohan, thinks Piccolo is dead and he becomes the strongest again, it ruins the messaging of the movie that Gohan should train to make sure he's strong enough to ward off threats, Piccolo even lectures Gohan about that after his BS power-up to which Gohan agrees. The beginning of the movie frames Gohan in a negative light due to his complacency but the movie contradicts itself, because Gohan was right to be lazy but not for the reason he realised.

Instead of saying he shouldn't bother training because Goku and Vegeta are around if he said that he doesn't need to train because he can just count on a rage boost to save his ass how would he have been wrong?

That's why it's bad writing. Toriyama was too lazy to give Gohan a compelling arc during the movie and so just slapped on some Cell Games nostalgia slop and called it a day.

Which leads to terrible character writing for Gohan in the movie, he's lazy, doesn't lose anything because of his complacency and the movie rewards him with a power-up wherein he acts like a cocky idiot (again) and lets Cell Max power up his attack for no reason, Gohan then one-shots Cell with some help from Piccolo... what's there to like about this character?

Thank God Toyotarou actually knows how to write for Gohan unlike Toriyama

[Mr Baggins]

It wasn't just the Buu saga but Gohan never had another rage boost throughout Super despite all the times the Earth or universe was in danger.

Sure, but there's also nothing in the DBS manga that has him going on a rampage until Super Hero. Piccolo's kinda scheme-y in this because he gives up on coddling Gohan with training and just forces his hand instead by straight up traumatizing him, which is both funny and mildly disturbing.

Imagine if he barely did anything in GT then had a massive rage boost and unlocked a new exclusive form against Omega Shenron surpassing SSJ4 Goku. I guess you could argue it would've been funny but I can't see many fans arguing it was good writing.

You'll find no shortage of people online arguing it wasn't good writing in Toriyama's manga either. I'd say they're missing the point.

Broadly speaking, there's no such thing as some grand, final "payoff" for Gohan's strength. There are individual payoffs in each arc, but the whole subtext of his growth is that he's just endlessly, limitlessly strong and the punchline is that nobody else in the story knows why because he isn't all that invested in fighting, himself. That's just his dynamic. The Boo arc gives him Ultimate because it was a healthier alternative to driving him to go on a frenzy again. Raging out wasn't natural for his character, as he explicitly states when facing off against Babidi and Dabura.

The difference between then and now is that Toriyama is having him learn to trigger this emotion at will. It's totally up in the air as to whether the writing can make use of his old rage boost ability without just recycling old plot points, which remains to be seen. I don't disagree that Super Hero kind of flubs it with all the Cell Games references played too straight, but the manga can still do something neat, I think.

Okay, but then Gohan is put into a situation similar to when his rage boosts occured in the past (The supreme Kai about to be killed by Babidi and Buu) and he didn't get any rage boost at all...

See above: Gohan's rage boosts require a little thing called rage.

You might have noticed that he doesn't actually react to whatever happens to Kaioshin by exploding in anger; if he did, I'm pretty sure his ability that's been a thing in every prior story arc he's ever appeared in would come into play, just intradiegetically speaking. In admitting that he's unable to get that angry at will, that's what's inherently implied.

To your general point, it's not something relied on or brought up frequently throughout the arc because it's clearly not conducive for a pacifist like Gohan, as was made clear during his conflict with Babidi. Given the circumstances, pursuing new strength via alternative means was a better approach for him. That's why it was abandoned narratively, if we're talking purely about the context of the original story.

Notice that Goku doesn't say anything about Gohan getting mad to defeat Buu, he straight up doubts he can.

They're specifically discussing the Z Sword there, not Gohan getting mad. Kaioshin was having a denial moment about their training being useless.

[Skar]

You'll find no shortage of people online arguing it wasn't good writing in Toriyama's manga either. I'd say they're missing the point.

Broadly speaking, there's no such thing as some grand, final "payoff" for Gohan's strength. There are individual payoffs in each arc, but the whole subtext of his growth is that he's just endlessly, limitlessly strong and the punchline is that nobody else in the story knows why because he isn't all that invested in fighting, himself. That's just his dynamic. The Boo arc gives him Ultimate because it was a healthier alternative to driving him to go on a frenzy again. Raging out wasn't natural for his character, as he explicitly states when facing off against Babidi and Dabura.

The difference between then and now is that Toriyama is having him learn to trigger this emotion at will. It's totally up in the air as to whether the writing can make use of his old rage boost ability without just recycling old plot points, which remains to be seen. I don't disagree that Super Hero kind of flubs it with all the Cell Games references played too straight, but the manga can still do something neat, I think.

I appreciate Toyotaro trying to develop it since Toriyama doesn't seem too invested in Gohan. I think it's likely that Toriyama would have this as one time Gohan fan service and he slack off again by EoZ. It's the same with Goten and Trunks since I think this manga chapter was the first time it was implied they've trained at all in Super. If that happens with Gohan and he ends up losing it, I think SH would've been better off not including him.

I do remember throughout Super that fans suggested Gohan could occasionally train with Whis or they could perform the SSJG ritual for him but those ideas were shot down because Gohan doesn't care about training. The argument was always that he could do both. It's basically what we're getting in the manga now except it ignores all the special training Goku and Vegeta have been doing and just comes from the biggest rage boost he ever achieved in the series.

His previous most impressive rage boost didn't come from randomly after slacking off for years and required Goku to train him in mastering SSJ first. Buu saga implied he could maybe get a rage boost but it didn't happen and he needed a special ritual to unlock his remaining potential to catch up to Goku's current power.
Beast seems more like a parody of his SSJ2 than just a reference since it's taking the idea that he unlock a new form with a rage boost to the absolute extreme but ignores what made SSJ2 different than his previous rage boosts.

[Miracles]

It does exist hence why Goku and Vegeta state themselves despite his lack of training that Gohan could go into a frenzy and be the strongest.

It was building up to a plot twist, like when Tien thought Goku could defeat Freeza because still had kaio-ken in his back pocket when he was mistaken.

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P14.2-5
Tenshinhan: "There’s nothing to worry about. Goku will win this match…Aren't you forgetting about the Kaio-Ken? As he is now, Goku is able to endure a maximum of up to about 10 times his power, right?"
Kaio: "Unfortunately... That Ten-Fold Kaio-Ken is what Goku is using now..."

Goku and Vegeta were simply mistaken.

Goku, Vegeta and Tien were voicing the expectations of the audience (Goku and Gohan still having trump cards up their sleeves) then Toriyama subverted those expectations with a reveal to the contrary.

There was no plot twist. Your simply reaching and connecting dots that aren't there. It's stated that Gohan has rage boost it's not stated that he can't do it.

Secondly, Shin wasn't getting beaten to death before Gohan.
Nice moving goalposts, I thought you said Gohan just had to see someone in danger.
Anyway no, Shin was dead to rights, Babidi was literally about to kill him before Gohan intervened.
Funnily enough, in the DBS manga being in the exact same scenario was enough for Future Trunks to get a SSJ2 rage boost power up in his timeline.

I'm not moving goal posts I posted specific examples from the story. It's just a straw man on your part.

BTW you have quotes way out of context there too. Gohan going SSJ2 and Vegeta not being impressed by his power because of lack of training was not rage induced. Not the same situation Goku was talking about.

Gohan begins to transform into a SSJ2 the next chapter after a chapter titled "Gohan gets angry" he was still worked up after what Spopovich did to Videl. If Gohan could still transform into a SSJ2 without any emotional motivation he would've done so against Dabura and Fat Buu.

It's also funny that you mention Gohan's lack of training, because all of Gohan's rage boosts prior to SSJ2 weren't enough the defeat the person he was fighting. It's only after training with Goku is that he finally had a rage boost that he could utilise effectively. Lack of proper training is why Future Gohan died miserably.

The Buu saga framed Gohan not training during the 7 year timeskip as a bad thing, if he just needed a rage boost to leap frog everyone again it would ruin that narrative entirely.

More headcanon from you. You took statements out of context and just double down trying to fit them into your misrepresentation of Gohan's power. Gohan himself stated that he was going to transform into SSJ2 willfully. He did that. Not by rage boost.

This is also headcanon. No where was it stated that all of Gohan's rage boost was used.

Gohan finds out Buu killed his mother before fighting him
No Rage boost

Buu absorbs Goten, Piccolo and Trunks right before Gohan's eyes
No rage boost

Buutenks fires a ki blast intending to kill Dende and Hercule
No rage boost

Buutenks is literally about to destroy the entire planet
No rage boost

Beerus is literally about to destroy the entire planet, in turn killing his wife and unborn child
No rage boost

In the DBS anime, Freeza killed Piccolo right in front of Gohan's eyes
No rage boost

Freeza actually destroys the entire planet, in turn killing his wife and child
No rage boost

In the DBS manga Moro impales Goku and almost kills all the Z-fighters
No rage boost

So between the ages of 9 - 27 and several story arcs Gohan didn't have a single rage boost power up, but according to you this is good "consistent" writing...?

But in Super Hero a rusty Gohan, thinks Piccolo is dead and he becomes the strongest again, it ruins the messaging of the movie that Gohan should train to make sure he's strong enough to ward off threats, Piccolo even lectures Gohan about that after his BS power-up to which Gohan agrees. The beginning of the movie frames Gohan in a negative light due to his complacency but the movie contradicts itself, because Gohan was right to be lazy but not for the reason he realised.

Instead of saying he shouldn't bother training because Goku and Vegeta are around if he said that he doesn't need to train because he can just count on a rage boost to save his ass how would he have been wrong?

That's why it's bad writing. Toriyama was too lazy to give Gohan a compelling arc during the movie and so just slapped on some Cell Games nostalgia slop and called it a day.

Which leads to terrible character writing for Gohan in the movie, he's lazy, doesn't lose anything because of his complacency and the movie rewards him with a power-up wherein he acts like a cocky idiot (again) and lets Cell Max power up his attack for no reason, Gohan then one-shots Cell with some help from Piccolo... what's there to like about this character?

Thank God Toyotarou actually knows how to write for Gohan unlike Toriyama

In none of those examples or explanations of yours shows where Gohan can't get explosive power from a rage boost.