The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[WittyUsername]

Long dead and dormant classic manga/anime franchises have had revival runs before. Fist of the North Star, very famously, had a pretty huge revival run (comparable in terms of content scale to what Dragon Ball is currently undergoing) back in the mid-2000s (flush in the middle of Dragon Ball's dead/dormant period, and at the very height of then-current Western manga/anime fandom's ignorance of the HnK franchise) which encompassed a whole series of one-shot manga prequels/interquels (penned by a variety of different authors), a series of big budget theatrical "retelling" movies, a whole full fledged ongoing prequel manga that ran for several years (penned by one of the original authors of the original HnK manga), not one, but TWO TV anime prequels, and a slew of brand new video game releases, to name just a few, before eventually coming to an end.

Sailor Moon has also recently undergone an "anime revival" of sorts, as has Devilman at several points periodically in the past.

Revival runs of completed/classic titles are not new or unique in the world of anime and manga: they are typically however, much like their original runs, finite and tend to end at some point as well.

At least with some of those revivals, we know exactly where the end point is.
Sailor Moon's mid point is the Infinity Arc, and the end point is the Galaxia arc. After that, there's no more content, it's over.
If Kimba The White Lion were to receive another adaptation, unless it was a side-story like the 2009 movie, I would know that the mid-point would be Kimba being an adult and having children, and the end point would be his travel to Mt. Moon.

Now, what exactly is the DB revival's end point? The End of Z? Are they planning to revisit GT or make entirely new content past that point? They have certainly made statements that they do want to continue the story past that point, so when exactly does it end? Are we even in the mid-point yet? Are they going to keep it going even after DB Online's universe takes place?

I'm sorry, but I don't see modern DB stopping, even after Toriyama's death.
They'll keep pulling "And then Goku finds a new strongerest person to battle" 'til the end of time.

So weird too because its clear Toriyama was interested in moving past Goku and ushering in a new generation, so many parts of the Cell and Buu arcs were dedicated to doing that.

The Cell arc tried to do that, but the Boo arc pretty much gave up on it midway through, seemingly because Toriyama wasn’t comfortable moving past Goku.

[AliTheZombie13]

Gohan would not have worked because he simply isn't as entertaining a character as Goku. Goku is a hopelessly innocent child trapped in a man's body, inspired by ancient Chinese folklore, who knows more about fighting techniques than he does counting to ten. He's endearing, he's iconic, but most importantly, he's unique. Gohan by comparison is...a standard shonen protagonist. Even in the early 90s, he would've been boring. The main reason he works as a character is how much of a contrast he is compared to his father, and the conflict it generates. If you took that away, his personality as a protagonist would be conventional and bland.

I mean, we get like 3 chapters with him before Toriyama drops the concept and brings Goku back for another tournament.
"It wouldn't work, because it's boring!" That was exactly the reaction to Dragon Ball in the West before DBZ made the franchise relevant.

[MasenkoHA]

"It wouldn't work, because it's boring!" That was exactly the reaction to Dragon Ball in the West before DBZ made the franchise relevant.

But not really because it did just fine in France, Italy, Latin America etc before Z.

And the countries that got stuck with Funimation the reaction was less "this is boring!" and more "There was a show before Z?"

[JulieYBM]

I think the issue is that Toriyama is a limited writer and his editor at the time of the Majin Buu didn't help him improve.

Takeda literally did nothing lol

[MasenkoHA]

Gohan would not have worked because he simply isn't as entertaining a character as Goku.

Plenty of stories work with a lackluster lead because the story itself is entertaining or the supporting cast is strong enough to pick up the slack. Krillin was created because it was felt that Goku wasn't a a strong character. Even if people didn't take to Gohan you had Videl, Mr.Satan, Goten, and Trunks to play off him.

. Gohan by comparison is...a standard shonen protagonist

Every standard Shonen protagonist is either 1. Goku rip off 2. Super horny teenage boy. I really don't think Gohan falls into either.


.

Even in the early 90s, he would've been boring. The main reason he works as a character is how much of a contrast he is compared to his father, and the conflict it generates. If you took that away, his personality as a protagonist would be conventional and bland.

This is why you have supporting characters

[GhostEmperorX]

If that was the case there wouldn't be any "GT isn't canon" topic ongoing for years. Because Toriyama was credited as author for GT openings/endings as well:

I would use the JP credits text because Western companies (even licensees known to be good like Pioneer/Geneon) invariably ruin some element of it when they translate it, typically not referring to proper sources & such for names and definitions of credit terms.

Average viewer doesn't care about that. Average viewer cares about canon/non-canon bullshit other average viewers spread across internet.

This sentence however... perfectly encapsulates a massive problem in this & other fandoms like it.
Very few know what a good source is or how to source anything they come across.

[tonysoprano300]

At least with some of those revivals, we know exactly where the end point is.
Sailor Moon's mid point is the Infinity Arc, and the end point is the Galaxia arc. After that, there's no more content, it's over.
If Kimba The White Lion were to receive another adaptation, unless it was a side-story like the 2009 movie, I would know that the mid-point would be Kimba being an adult and having children, and the end point would be his travel to Mt. Moon.

Now, what exactly is the DB revival's end point? The End of Z? Are they planning to revisit GT or make entirely new content past that point? They have certainly made statements that they do want to continue the story past that point, so when exactly does it end? Are we even in the mid-point yet? Are they going to keep it going even after DB Online's universe takes place?

I'm sorry, but I don't see modern DB stopping, even after Toriyama's death.
They'll keep pulling "And then Goku finds a new strongerest person to battle" 'til the end of time.

So weird too because its clear Toriyama was interested in moving past Goku and ushering in a new generation, so many parts of the Cell and Buu arcs were dedicated to doing that.

The Cell arc tried to do that, but the Boo arc pretty much gave up on it midway through, seemingly because Toriyama wasn’t comfortable moving past Goku.

Yea...really sucks we'll never get to know why he felt that way

[tonysoprano300]

Ultimately, I feel that reinstating the status quo basically destroyed years of ground work that Toriyama laid out from Saiyan arc all the way to Cell. You can argue that bringing Goku back to life as earths protector in the Buu saga contradicts the ending of the cell arc, and it completely undercuts his comments in the first half of the buu arc about him having to trust the kids because its not his place anymore to get involved in the affairs of the Earth.

[GhostEmperorX]

Every standard Shonen protagonist is either 1. Goku rip off 2. Super horny teenage boy.

Probably true of the medium post-DB. Not so sure about during and before it though, including certain contemporaries.

[AliTheZombie13]

Gohan during his High School arc was more like Sailor Moon than he was the standard shonen protagonist lol

[Majin Buu]

Ultimately, I feel that reinstating the status quo basically destroyed years of ground work that Toriyama laid out from Saiyan arc all the way to Cell. You can argue that bringing Goku back to life as earths protector in the Buu saga contradicts the ending of the cell arc, and it completely undercuts his comments in the first half of the buu arc about him having to trust the kids because its not his place anymore to get involved in the affairs of the Earth.

"Groundwork" that was likely "laid out" by pure coincidence.

Based on interviews, I don't think Toriyama ever planned to have the story continue with a new generation of characters. I think he only tried it at the start of what became the Buu arc simply as a consequence of how the Cell arc ended- with Goku dead and Gohan the hero. He was writing by the seat of his pants with what he had to work with like he always did- It just didn't work out that time, forcing him to shift focus (Fortunately the anime adaptation smooths out the rough edges of that part of the story).

I think fans overstate just how much Gohan was "intended" to become the main character.

[MasenkoHA]

I think people overstate just how much Gohan was "intended" to become the main character.

Yeah a lot of people seem to think Toriyama was either setting up Gohan to be the new lead from the moment he was introduced (and I think Toei is to blame for a lot of that) or from the beginning of the Cell arc. In reality he probably didn't even think of it until around the time Gohan became a Super Saiyan in the Room of Spirit and Time.

As far as when he changed his mind, I know the argument is that bringing Goku back from the dead to participate in the tournament was when Toriyama decided Gohan couldn't cut the mustard as a lead. Honestly though I feel as much as the Boo arc parallels the Daimao arc, with Gohan in place of Goku, he probably didn't withdraw his intentions with Gohan until at least after he committed to Gohan getting a power up from Elder Kaioshin.

[Majin Buu]

Yeah a lot of people seem to think Toriyama was either setting up Gohan to be the new lead from the moment he was introduced (and I think Toei is to blame for a lot of that)

Indeed. Makes me wonder if the "Gohan should have become the main character" sentiment would be as strong as it is if Toei hadn't centered Gohan more than Toriyama did.

[Skar]

Now, what exactly is the DB revival's end point? The End of Z? Are they planning to revisit GT or make entirely new content past that point? They have certainly made statements that they do want to continue the story past that point, so when exactly does it end? Are we even in the mid-point yet? Are they going to keep it going even after DB Online's universe takes place?

Who made those statements? I heard a few times from fans that they want to continue past EoZ but I couldn't find a statement from anyone involved in the series. Toriyama explained why he chose this time period for the revival which explains why it's all set before EoZ. EoZ still seems to be the endpoint since this revival began.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, I never heard anything from the people that matter about going beyond EoZ.
In fact, based on them coming up with 10 fucking arcs between Buu and EoZ, more than Z ever had, half of them after the anime ended, cramming 5 arcs together in such a short amount of time that was supposed to be a period of time of estrangement and peace, when they could've occurred after EoZ, makes me think Toriyama never intended on continuing his original story.

[Zephyr]

Yeah, if they were willing to go past the original story's ending they probably would have done that in the first place.

[tonysoprano300]

Ultimately, I feel that reinstating the status quo basically destroyed years of ground work that Toriyama laid out from Saiyan arc all the way to Cell. You can argue that bringing Goku back to life as earths protector in the Buu saga contradicts the ending of the cell arc, and it completely undercuts his comments in the first half of the buu arc about him having to trust the kids because its not his place anymore to get involved in the affairs of the Earth.

"Groundwork" that was likely "laid out" by pure coincidence.

Based on interviews, I don't think Toriyama ever planned to have the story continue with a new generation of characters. I think he only tried it at the start of what became the Buu arc simply as a consequence of how the Cell arc ended- with Goku dead and Gohan the hero. He was writing by the seat of his pants with what he had to work with like he always did- It just didn't work out that time, forcing him to shift focus (Fortunately the anime adaptation smooths out the rough edges of that part of the story).

I think fans overstate just how much Gohan was "intended" to become the main character.

Which I can believe, but I'm just saying that narratively its contradictory. Even if Toriyama didn’t necessarily plan it out that way, its essentially the story that we’re given.

[Mister_Popo]

Toriyama was a mangaka. He wrote and drew his own stories. So, everything that belonged to Toriyama's 100% canon included all manga publications he ever wrote and drew: Dragon Ball and related works within the same universe. But also works like Sandman, Dr. Slump...

Anything involving Toriyama that he didn't fully create himself but did with the help of others (DBS anime, manga, BOG, ROF, Broly, Super Hero films...) belongs to an official extension of his original storyline.

At this moment, there is only one continuity that can still be fully made, and that is the anime. I think that out of respect for Toriyama's work, an animated version of the complete DBS continuity post-TOP from the Broly movie (there is a lot of Toriyama's original script to be adapted), followed by the Moro, Granolah, and Super Hero arcs should be allowed to be made to complete Toriyama's work around Super. It would be logical for Daima to serve as a sort of finale arc that connects Super with EOZ.

I could understand if the franchise were to go on a long hiatus after Daima. But after that, they should make that anime for the sake of completion. That being said, I think, personally, that the revival should stop there, and further additions by others to Toriyama's official storyline are not needed. The story is already sufficiently expanded.

Let Toriyama's (main) work rest from now on. If any further stories were to be made, which I personally don't think is necessary at all, I hope they take place in another universe or reality. Going beyond EOZ seems overkill and disrespectful to the author. Let Toriyama's story and work just have an end and rest within the same continuity.

[Goten_jr]

original Dragon Ball Manga is the only thing i consider canon the definitve Story of Dragon Ball and all it's characters & Toriyama's vision.

all of the Dragon Ball Animes & Movies are not canon to me , DB & Z have a lot of canon content but in their entirety obviously way too different and too much extra stuff and Filler to be considered canon compared to the Manga.

i consider Super (Manga & Anime) to be the modern continuation of the Buu saga that does his own thing and GT to be the Sequel of the Dragon Ball Z Anime that continued the End of Z.

both are Toriyama approved and official Dragon Ball Storylines that continue something from the original Manga but i don't consider them Toriyamas Vision

[Majin Buu]

Which I can believe, but I'm just saying that narratively its contradictory.

I disagree and think it's an overstatement to claim that he's undercutting what he said about trusting the kids by coming back to life.

He did trust the kids to beat Buu, they just failed.

He did trust Gohan to beat Buu, he just failed.

He would actually be undercutting his own words if he stepped in before they even got the chance and said "sorry guys, changed my mind, I'm stepping in now cause I actually wanna fight this guy reaaaally badly".

Plus I think the expectation that he should stay dead on principle became unrealistic after the next generation had their shot and failed. He came back to life to stop Buu because circumstances forced him to after his intentions to let the next generation handle Buu didn't pan out.

Like you said, that's the story we got.