The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[tonysoprano300]

Wouldn’t mind seeing DB end but whether its disrespectful will depend on what Toriyamas wishes were. Which I'm guessing he relayed privately to the staff? AFAIK, he wasn’t against GT being made was he?

[WittyUsername]

Wouldn’t mind seeing DB end but whether its disrespectful will depend on what Toriyamas wishes were. Which I'm guessing he relayed privately to the staff? AFAIK, he wasn’t against GT being made was he?

He came up with the title and did the initial character designs, so it’s fair to assume that he wasn’t against it. As far as I know, the only officially licensed Dragon Ball work that he seemed to have a strong aversion to was DBE.

[tonysoprano300]

Which I can believe, but I'm just saying that narratively its contradictory.

I disagree and think it's an overstatement to claim that he's undercutting what he said about trusting the kids by coming back to life.

He did trust the kids to beat Buu, they just failed.

He did trust Gohan to beat Buu, he just failed.

He would actually be undercutting his own words if he stepped in before they even got the chance and said "sorry guys, changed my mind, I'm stepping in now cause I actually wanna fight this guy reaaaally badly".

Plus I think the expectation that he should stay dead on principle after the next generation had their shot and failed is unrealistic. He came back to life to stop Buu because circumstances forced him to after his intentions to let the next generation handle Buu didn't pan out.

Like you said, that's the story we got.

The whole thing about staying dead to begin with had nothing to do with whether or not he could feasibly come back to life and more about how he feels the earth is better off if he wasn’t around to attract bad guys. Goku was choosing to remain dead and stay out of earthly affairs, it wasn’t a restriction that was placed upon him.

So when we get to the end of the buu arc, there’s nothing in the text to suggest that he came to some kind of understanding that this wouldn’t be the case for the future. And there’s no real portrayal that Goku has changed his mind about this.

The decision to bring back Goku has almost permanently removed Gohan from the story of DB all together in almost all of the subsequent material. The writers put themselves into a corner because they can’t have Gohan actually learn lessons and not shirk his responsibilities because if he did then he’d be the strongest and if Goku is the protagonist then it just wouldn’t work for him to be weaker than a supporting character. The same goes for Goten and Trunks who seemingly have no place in the story because whatever Toriyama originally intended for them was likely scrapped completely due to Gokus revival. So they’re just relegated to cardboard cutouts

Thats just my speculation though, if DB definitely ended at the buu saga then i wouldn’t mind as much. It would still be problematic though.

[Majin Buu]

The whole thing about staying dead to begin with had nothing to do with whether or not he could feasibly come back to life and more about how he feels the earth is better off if he wasn’t around to attract bad guys. Goku was choosing to remain dead and stay out of earthly affairs, it wasn’t a restriction that was placed upon him.

I know it's not a literal restriction. What I'm getting at is that your argument makes it come off like a narrative restriction that he's violating by coming back.

Hence my original point about people overstating that "the next generation was supposed to take over the story". You're making a claim about narrative contradiction on the character's part where there isn't any in service of that viewpoint.

Plus, Goku's claim in the Cell arc that he attracts bad guys doesn't hold up to scrutiny to begin with and comes off more like a flimsy excuse to keep Goku dead than some noble decision on his part.

[Zephyr]

The "next generation takes over" thread gets propped up because Goku's generation took over. But just because the story showed his generation take over from the previous one doesn't mean it needs to show the next one taking over from his. Dragon Ball was never a story about following successive generations of martial artists. We didn't begin with the Muten Roshi's story, see him train Goku, and then see the story shift to Goku as the protagonist. Since such a shift never occurred, we can't say there was some natural expectation that a subsequent shift would follow it. The natural expectation built up with the Raditz fight is that Gohan has the potential to be stronger than anyone in Goku's generation. That is cashed out in the fight against Cell.

The story is (in part) about Goku going from a student to a master, and once he's accomplished that, the story is over. The Cell arc does see him become a master of sorts, but the problem with that as an ending is that his student kind of sucks? When Goku had to step up to the plate and take down the Great Demon King, he didn't have his hand held through the fight the way this prospective successor did. Gohan was a false start, a (decidedly unintentional) red herring. He is not about The Fight™ the way Goku is. He's not passionate about this stuff in the same way. If he was, he wouldn't have slacked off for most of the following decade.

Also the way the Cell arc protag switcheroo is mirrored and inverted by the Boo arc switcheroo is kinda cool, I like it.

[tonysoprano300]

The whole thing about staying dead to begin with had nothing to do with whether or not he could feasibly come back to life and more about how he feels the earth is better off if he wasn’t around to attract bad guys. Goku was choosing to remain dead and stay out of earthly affairs, it wasn’t a restriction that was placed upon him.

I know it's not a literal restriction. What I'm getting at is that your argument makes it come off like a narrative restriction that he's violating by coming back.

Hence my original point about people overstating that "the next generation was supposed to take over the story". You're making a claim about narrative contradiction on the character's part where there isn't any in service of that viewpoint.

Plus, Goku's claim in the Cell arc that he attracts bad guys doesn't hold up to scrutiny to begin with and comes off more like a flimsy excuse to keep Goku dead than some noble decision on his part.

Its more about that narrative being put on a particular path that eventually goes nowhere, imo it is bad writing to make a big deal out of the fact that earth has to learn to live without Goku only to later to bring him up without any tangible follow up on that narrative thread.

Its the thing GRRM talked about where if you write an entire murder story where the butler did it, but later on you change it so that the maid did then you’re ultimately left with an entire story that only really makes sense if its the butler. I think that’s ultimately what the Buu saga ended up doing.

To be clear, I agree that Goku’s conclusion in the cell arc can certainly be criticized. But be that as it may, it was the direction the story decided to take and for them to not even address why Goku changed his POV on such a pivotal plot point in any whatsoever…then yea that creates a problem. At least imo, subsequent DB are feeling the effects of this


And tbf…the buu saga would not have happened if Goku never came back. In a diegetic sense, the only reason the did kill Babidi and his minions is because Goku presence caused Vegeta to go off the reservation. If it wasn’t for that, Buu never wakes up

[MasenkoHA]

Its more about that narrative being put on a particular path that eventually goes nowhere, imo it is bad writing to make a big deal out of the fact that earth has to learn to live without Goku only to later to bring him up without any tangible follow up on that narrative thread.

Its the thing GRRM talked about where if you write an entire murder story where the butler did it, but later on you change it so that the maid did then you’re ultimately left with an entire story that only really makes sense if its the butler. I think that’s ultimately what the Buu saga ended up doing.

To be clear, I agree that Goku’s conclusion in the cell arc can certainly be criticized. But be that as it may, it was the direction the story decided to take and for them to not even address why Goku changed his POV on such a pivotal plot point in any whatsoever

They did address why he changed his POV. Gotenks had gotten absorbed and Gohan was getting his ass handed to him by Majin Buu. It's not like he could stick to his "let the new generation take charge" mindset when the new generation was getting slaughtered.

Besides, one could argue that it was ultimately Oob who represented the next generation of fighters since Gohan, Goten, and Trunks all proved they didn't have the heart for it.

[Zephyr]

They did address why he changed his POV. Gotenks had gotten absorbed and Gohan was getting his ass handed to him by Majin Buu. It's not like he could stick to his "let the new generation take charge" mindset when the new generation was getting slaughtered.

Goku: "maybe the next generation should handle things"

Next generation: "we really suck at this, actually"

Goku: "okay fine"

---

Also, Goku and Vegeta were the ones who let Boo out. It should be them who put him away. It's their mess to clean up. In that sense, the "the butler did it" story got swept to the side before very much of it was written at all. Every time I re-read the Boo arc, once Goku says "I'm coming too", it feels like it should be clear that we're in for some shenanigans with Goku at center stage, because the whole point of the story focusing on Gohan was because Goku was gone; if he's back, then, uhh, what need for that focus?

Honestly the only thing that even feels sloppy about the whole thing to me is the way Gohan is indeed built up throughout the Boo arc, only for Goku to tag in and.....that's just it for Gohan. I don't see him tagging out for Goku as this great crime against writing like a lot of people seem to, but I do think it should have resulted in some reflection or comment or mention about. Is Gohan frustrated at his inability to get the job done? Is he accepting of it? Anything? The arc started with his perspective, so having some of his perspective at the climax and the epilogue would have felt appropriate, even if it was mixed with and secondary to Goku's perspective.

Besides, one could argue that it was ultimately Oob who represented the next generation of fighters since Gohan, Goten, and Trunks all proved they didn't have the heart for it.

Frankly, I don't see how that's something that even needs to be argued. It's also funnier this way: the true next generation of martial artists begins with the final antagonist, reincarnated.

[Majin Buu]

Besides, one could argue that it was ultimately Oob who represented the next generation of fighters since Gohan, Goten, and Trunks all proved they didn't have the heart for it.

This.

Toriyama even stated that he updated the Kanzenban ending with Goku giving Kintoun to Uub to make it clear that the next generation is taking over- meaning Goku's story- and thus the manga itself, is over.

[tonysoprano300]

Its more about that narrative being put on a particular path that eventually goes nowhere, imo it is bad writing to make a big deal out of the fact that earth has to learn to live without Goku only to later to bring him up without any tangible follow up on that narrative thread.

Its the thing GRRM talked about where if you write an entire murder story where the butler did it, but later on you change it so that the maid did then you’re ultimately left with an entire story that only really makes sense if its the butler. I think that’s ultimately what the Buu saga ended up doing.

To be clear, I agree that Goku’s conclusion in the cell arc can certainly be criticized. But be that as it may, it was the direction the story decided to take and for them to not even address why Goku changed his POV on such a pivotal plot point in any whatsoever

They did address why he changed his POV. Gotenks had gotten absorbed and Gohan was getting his ass handed to him by Majin Buu. It's not like he could stick to his "let the new generation take charge" mindset when the new generation was getting slaughtered.

Besides, one could argue that it was ultimately Oob who represented the next generation of fighters since Gohan, Goten, and Trunks all proved they didn't have the heart for it.

I mean sure, circumstances dictated Goku needed to comeback. But the story itself never has Goku address his entire reasoning for staying dead in the Cell arc, the question becomes why Goku feels differently now compared to the past. Theres no dialogue or internal thought process to provide insight, the story itself never feels the need to really address Gokus change of heart after Buu is defeated.

Yes the kids did ultimately fail but that only really happened because the supreme kai withheld vital information from Gohan(that buu can absorb people), theres no real reason to think things would have turned out differently if Gohan had to stay back instead of Goku. Buu would still have absorbed Gotenks because Goku wouldn’t know about absorption. And even then, if Vegeta wasn’t brought back by Yemma just in time Goku would have died within the hour.

So i think the whole idea that it was about how Goku realized the kids are screwups and can’t be trusted doesn’t really make sense to me when the situation would not have been any different if Goku came back instead of Gohan. If Goku wasn’t there, Buu would never be born to begin with.

If Goku viewed that situation as “Man do i really have to everything? I guess so. I can’t trust anyone to handle business without me” then it would be very confusing lol. Mainly because Goku screwed up significantly at multiple points during that entire arc and only won purely due to luck if we’re being honest


I did appreciate the Oob thing though

[MasenkoHA]

I mean sure, circumstances dictated Goku needed to comeback. But the story itself never has Goku address his entire reasoning for staying dead in the Cell arc, the question becomes why Goku feels differently now compared to the past. Theres no dialogue or internal thought process to provide insight, the story itself never feels the need to really address Gokus change of heart after Buu is defeated.

I think it was just a matter of circumstances. What was he supposed to do after Boo was defeated? Off himself? Goku's kind of at the heat of the moment kind of guy anyways. The situation at the time called for Goku to come back to life so he just rolled with it. It's not like Goku was on a "I belong dead" kick.

I died stopping Cell from blowing up the earth? Might as well stay dead.

I had to come back because Gohan and the rugrats fucked up? Okay guess I'm back in the living world.

Yes the kids did ultimately fail but that only really happened because the supreme kai withheld vital information from Gohan(that buu can absorb people), theres no real reason to think things would have turned out differently if Gohan had to stay back instead of Goku. Buu would still have absorbed Gotenks because Goku wouldn’t know about absorption. And even then, if Vegeta wasn’t brought back by Yemma just in time Goku would have died within the hour.
So i think the whole idea that it was about how Goku realized the kids are screwups and can’t be trusted doesn’t really make sense to me when the situation would not have been any different if Goku came back instead of Gohan. If Goku wasn’t there, Buu would never be born to begin with

To be fair, he was willing to fuse with Gohan so I don't think he necessarily wrote Gohan off as a fuck up (and if we go by Super he has more confidence in Gohan than he does the ankle biters) just that the situation escalated to a point that it was bigger than anyone could handle. About the only real indication he gave up on Gohan was when he didn't save him from the pure Majin Boo but that was also a spur of the moment thing. Gohan himself retired as a fighter after Boo was defeated.

Maybe Goku was still hoping that Gohan would develop a fighting spirit after defeating Cell and finally came to the realization that it just wasn't what Gohan was about after the revelation came out that Gohan hadn't trained at all in the 7 years that had passed? .

If Goku viewed that situation as “Man do i really have to everything? I guess so. I can’t trust anyone to handle business without me” then it would be very confusing lol. Mainly because Goku screwed up significantly at multiple points during that entire arc and only won purely due to luck if we’re being honest


I did appreciate the Oob thing though

I think training Oob proved he didn't think he had to do everything. It's just that he couldn't expect his son, who has no interest in fighting, or his younger son and friend who treat it more like playing a game (and clearly got bored with it as they grew up) to be up to task.

If Dragon Ball was a story about responsibility as a hero Goku would definitely come out the other end looking like a hypocrite, but since it's ultimately a story about the thrill of martial arts and improving ones own skill it makes sense that Goku came to to the conclusion that the Saiyan hybrids didn't have the heart of a warrior like he and Vegeta did and moved on to Oob.

[tonysoprano300]

I mean sure, circumstances dictated Goku needed to comeback. But the story itself never has Goku address his entire reasoning for staying dead in the Cell arc, the question becomes why Goku feels differently now compared to the past. Theres no dialogue or internal thought process to provide insight, the story itself never feels the need to really address Gokus change of heart after Buu is defeated.

I think it was just a matter of circumstances. What was he supposed to do after Boo was defeated? Off himself? Goku's kind of at the heat of the moment kind of guy anyways. The situation at the time called for Goku to come back to life so he just rolled with it. It's not like Goku was on a "I belong dead" kick.

I died stopping Cell from blowing up the earth? Might as well stay dead.

I had to come back because Gohan and the rugrats fucked up? Okay guess I'm back in the living world.

Yes the kids did ultimately fail but that only really happened because the supreme kai withheld vital information from Gohan(that buu can absorb people), theres no real reason to think things would have turned out differently if Gohan had to stay back instead of Goku. Buu would still have absorbed Gotenks because Goku wouldn’t know about absorption. And even then, if Vegeta wasn’t brought back by Yemma just in time Goku would have died within the hour.
So i think the whole idea that it was about how Goku realized the kids are screwups and can’t be trusted doesn’t really make sense to me when the situation would not have been any different if Goku came back instead of Gohan. If Goku wasn’t there, Buu would never be born to begin with

To be fair, he was willing to fuse with Gohan so I don't think he necessarily wrote Gohan off as a fuck up (and if we go by Super he has more confidence in Gohan than he does the ankle biters) just that the situation escalated to a point that it was bigger than anyone could handle. About the only real indication he gave up on Gohan was when he didn't save him from the pure Majin Boo but that was also a spur of the moment thing. Gohan himself retired as a fighter after Boo was defeated.

Maybe Goku was still hoping that Gohan would develop a fighting spirit after defeating Cell and finally came to the realization that it just wasn't what Gohan was about after the revelation came out that Gohan hadn't trained at all in the 7 years that had passed? .

If Goku viewed that situation as “Man do i really have to everything? I guess so. I can’t trust anyone to handle business without me” then it would be very confusing lol. Mainly because Goku screwed up significantly at multiple points during that entire arc and only won purely due to luck if we’re being honest


I did appreciate the Oob thing though

I think training Oob proved he didn't think he had to do everything. It's just that he couldn't expect his son, who has no interest in fighting, or his younger son and friend who treat it more like playing a game (and clearly got bored with it as they grew up) to be up to task.

If Dragon Ball was a story about responsibility as a hero Goku would definitely come out the other end looking like a hypocrite, but since it's ultimately a story about the thrill of martial arts and improving ones own skill it makes sense that Goku came to to the conclusion that the Saiyan hybrids didn't have the heart of a warrior like he and Vegeta did and moved on to Oob.

My initial reading of Goku choosing to stay dead was that he was going to stay away from the earth regardless and so he tells them not to waste their time wishing him back. It was a conscious choice on his part to stay away because he felt he was a bad influence. Thats what I understood from the ending of the cell arc. The way its played there is more so that it wasnt just a matter of circumstance and that Goku actually thought about it and conferred with King Kai. IIRC, it was even a sentiment suggested by bulma. So at the ending of the Buu arc, I feel like there needs to be a reason that Goku doesnt just teleport back to the Kai's planet(Whether its the supreme Kai or King Kai).


Oh I'm not saying thats necessarily what Goku actually thought, but thats the argument that I see being made not only here but in other parts of the DB fandom too. As far as whats in the story, I think you're right. Goku saw the situation spiral out of control in a way that nobody could have predicted and realized Buu is a force that requires a combined effort. I dont think Goku ever loses confidence in Gohan, even at he beginning of the arc.

The whole thing about Gohan not having a fighting spirit was interesting,mainly because the 7 years of peace was the first time Gohan actually had an oppurtunity to let his guard down since he was 4 years old. Gohan was a character who only knew non-stop violence/combat and was finally in a situation where he wasnt fighting for survival. So from my POV, thats perfectly understandable.

Goten and Trunks did seem to have more of a fighting spirirt than Oob at a similar age imo, I'm not sure why they stopped caring given how much they loved thrill seeking in the buu saga but I guess EOZ decided they dont have the thirst. Oob only signed up because he wanted to get the prize money to help his family not for the sake of improving his skill as a martial artist. I think what little we saw of Pan was more inline with a youngster who wants to fight for the thrills compared to Oob. I do appreciate how the ending at least tries to bring back the idea of Goku passing the torch though, it just kind of falls short for me because I have no reason to be invested in Oob other than the fact that he's a reincarnation of Boo.

[Majin Buu]

Goten and Trunks did seem to have more of a fighting spirirt than Oob at a similar age imo, I'm not sure why they stopped caring given how much they loved thrill seeking in the buu saga but I guess EOZ decided they dont have the thirst.

I think it's that they're simply more like average everyday people than the previous generation of fighters were due to having grown up in and having known nothing but peaceful times. They're not really "bred" for fighting the way their fathers were.

Oob only signed up because he wanted to get the prize money to help his family not for the sake of improving his skill as a martial artist. I think what little we saw of Pan was more inline with a youngster who wants to fight for the thrills compared to Oob. I do appreciate how the ending at least tries to bring back the idea of Goku passing the torch though, it just kind of falls short for me because I have no reason to be invested in Oob other than the fact that he's a reincarnation of Boo.

Within the context of the ending, Uub himself isn't important, because the ending isn't about him.

Within that context, Uub matters not because of what or who he is, but because of what he represents for Goku- The moment he officially (rather than implicitly) takes on a student and becomes a martial arts master in his own right; and in his own uniquely Goku way- He ultimately becomes a master for the sake of seeking out a good fight. His story is over at that point.

To the broader topic, I think making new Dragon Ball material that follows after that ending would require actively depicting Goku in a master role to someone else to be thematically in sync with it- GT clearly didn't want to do that and Super outright punted and plopped itself in the 10 year timeskip before it.

Neko Majin Z, the outright parody manga of all things, is the closest we've ever gotten to that that I can think of, with Toriyama himself depicting Uub as living with the Son family and wearing the Turtle School gi, or I guess Goku's gi at this point.

Plus Z himself is another student of his I believe (it's been a while since I've read Neko Majin Z).

[LoganForkHands73]

My initial reading of Goku choosing to stay dead was that he was going to stay away from the earth regardless and so he tells them not to waste their time wishing him back. It was a conscious choice on his part to stay away because he felt he was a bad influence. Thats what I understood from the ending of the cell arc. The way its played there is more so that it wasnt just a matter of circumstance and that Goku actually thought about it and conferred with King Kai. IIRC, it was even a sentiment suggested by bulma. So at the ending of the Buu arc, I feel like there needs to be a reason that Goku doesnt just teleport back to the Kai's planet(Whether its the supreme Kai or King Kai).

What Bulma said certainly influenced Goku's decision, as did his desire to let Gohan stand on his own two feet, but Piccolo sees through it all the moment Goku gushes about meeting martial arts experts in the afterlife. He pegs that as Goku's selfish ulterior motive for staying dead. Goku is so carefree that he sees that as equally valid.

As with many things in Toriyama's Dragon Ball, there's a slight dark humour aspect to Goku's decision making throughout the Buu arc, including his reasons for coming back to the living realm. Goku implies that the afterlife... is low-key boring as fuck. The great martial arts experts of the past he was so excited to meet were presumably not all they were cracked up to be, as he's still hanging out with Kaio and Bubbles. At least by the time of Buu's return, nobody he met was strong enough to match his power and perform the Fusion Dance with him. Even the food in the Otherworld somehow tastes worse than Earth's. Of course, there's also the angle that he misses all his friends and family, and the tournament was a convenient excuse to visit them all in one place while also having some good fights.

When circumstances eventually force Goku to return to Earth permanently, there is a slight melancholy about it, too. Goku does seem glad to be back, but after Majin Buu's ultimate defeat, he once again finds himself lacking drive and stimulation, and ends up becoming something of a recluse (not unlike the author, his creator). Dragon Ball Super has seemingly rendered Bulma's "five years" line redundant, but the original point remains that Goku failed to visit two of his oldest friends for a really long time, so long that Bulma had aged noticeably by the time they reunited. Uub represents Goku regaining that lust for life and his drive to see the next generation of warriors succeed, after he'd basically given up on seeing his own children cut the mustard.

It's times like these when you realise that without the promise of fighting and adventure, Goku's life is quite empty and depressing. Like many great men in history, he struggles in times of peace, when there's no challenge or conflict left to overcome. One lore addition from Super I do appreciate (well, technically it was first revealed to us in that Tarble special) is his successful radish farming career which, while more boring than training/fighting, gives him some enjoyment and purpose beyond those things.

Goten and Trunks did seem to have more of a fighting spirirt than Oob at a similar age imo, I'm not sure why they stopped caring given how much they loved thrill seeking in the buu saga but I guess EOZ decided they dont have the thirst. Oob only signed up because he wanted to get the prize money to help his family not for the sake of improving his skill as a martial artist. I think what little we saw of Pan was more inline with a youngster who wants to fight for the thrills compared to Oob. I do appreciate how the ending at least tries to bring back the idea of Goku passing the torch though, it just kind of falls short for me because I have no reason to be invested in Oob other than the fact that he's a reincarnation of Boo.

I think Goten and Trunks represent the Gen X/Millennial stereotype, the slacker generations. Goten's yee-yee ass haircut after the time-skip only solidifies this. They ultimately just want to lead peaceful, normal lives. Uub, in contrast to Goku and Vegeta's kids, hasn't led a privileged life and bears a lot of responsibility for someone so young. However, like Gohan in his youth, Uub has inherited a hidden power that only awakens when he's righteously enraged. What excites Goku so much about Uub is that even without proper training, the boy can already spar evenly with him. Pan is cute and enthusiastic, but, harsh as it is, she's still too young and weak to give Goku any sort of challenge. Uub basically has everything Goku's looking for: a good, heroic heart, buckets of latent fighting potential, and the natural strength to provide him a good sparring match whenever he gets bored.

[MasenkoHA]

The interesting thing about Goten and Trunks is their losing interest in fighting is the exact same thing Kame Sennin feared would happen to Goku and Krillin and went out of his way to prevent.

Kame Sennin worried that if Goku and Krillin thought they were the best at their young age they wouldn't strive to get better and eventually lose interest in the sport. And that kinda did happen to Goten and Trunks. They become Super Saiyan as a much younger age and with a lot more ease than their dads and Gohan, they placed first and second at their first junior tournament with no effort and went into the adult division thinking they could win it and never got humbled since they were disqualified, and they very quickly through fusion surpassed their dads and Gohan. I don't know if any of that was intentional, but it is a interesting subtext as why Goten and Trunks grew disinterested in the sport by their late teens.

And Gohan always just saw fighting as a means to and end i.e protecting people. Piccolo even told him he could worry about being a scholar after he saved the world. He immediately goes back to studying after the Freeza arc is over, we found out he didn't train at all after Cell was defeated to focus on academics, and he retired after Boo was defeated. He fought out of moral obligation, not out of a passion for combat.

[Zephyr]

The interesting thing about Goten and Trunks is their losing interest in fighting is the exact same thing Kame Sennin feared would happen to Goku and Krillin and went out of his way to prevent.

Kame Sennin worried that if Goku and Krillin thought they were the best at their young age they wouldn't strive to get better and eventually lose interest in the sport. And that kinda did happen to Goten and Trunks. They become Super Saiyan as a much younger age and with a lot more ease than their dads and Gohan, they placed first and second at their first junior tournament with no effort and went into the adult division thinking they could win it and never got humbled since they were disqualified, and they very quickly through fusion surpassed their dads and Gohan. I don't know if any of that was intentional, but it is a interesting subtext as why Goten and Trunks grew disinterested in the sport by their late teens.

Adding onto that, one thing that sticks out to me about Goten and Trunks is how after they learn fusion, and especially Super Saiyan 3, they keep thinking of ways to give a dramatic showing, wanting to make it look like they're losing before pulling out their trump card at the last moment. To whatever extent they enjoy fighting for its own sake at that time, they also really want to put on a thrilling performance. They're performers.

Piccolo even told him he could worry about being a scholar after he saved the world.

Goku tells him the same thing during the Cell Games.

[MasenkoHA]

Piccolo even told him he could worry about being a scholar after he saved the world.

Goku tells him the same thing during the Cell Games.

Shit, I forgot about that. No wonder the kid associated world peace with studying.

[tonysoprano300]

My initial reading of Goku choosing to stay dead was that he was going to stay away from the earth regardless and so he tells them not to waste their time wishing him back. It was a conscious choice on his part to stay away because he felt he was a bad influence. Thats what I understood from the ending of the cell arc. The way its played there is more so that it wasnt just a matter of circumstance and that Goku actually thought about it and conferred with King Kai. IIRC, it was even a sentiment suggested by bulma. So at the ending of the Buu arc, I feel like there needs to be a reason that Goku doesnt just teleport back to the Kai's planet(Whether its the supreme Kai or King Kai).

What Bulma said certainly influenced Goku's decision, as did his desire to let Gohan stand on his own two feet, but Piccolo sees through it all the moment Goku gushes about meeting martial arts experts in the afterlife. He pegs that as Goku's selfish ulterior motive for staying dead. Goku is so carefree that he sees that as equally valid.

As with many things in Toriyama's Dragon Ball, there's a slight dark humour aspect to Goku's decision making throughout the Buu arc, including his reasons for coming back to the living realm. Goku implies that the afterlife... is low-key boring as fuck. The great martial arts experts of the past he was so excited to meet were presumably not all they were cracked up to be, as he's still hanging out with Kaio and Bubbles. At least by the time of Buu's return, nobody he met was strong enough to match his power and perform the Fusion Dance with him. Even the food in the Otherworld somehow tastes worse than Earth's. Of course, there's also the angle that he misses all his friends and family, and the tournament was a convenient excuse to visit them all in one place while also having some good fights.

When circumstances eventually force Goku to return to Earth permanently, there is a slight melancholy about it, too. Goku does seem glad to be back, but after Majin Buu's ultimate defeat, he once again finds himself lacking drive and stimulation, and ends up becoming something of a recluse (not unlike the author, his creator). Dragon Ball Super has seemingly rendered Bulma's "five years" line redundant, but the original point remains that Goku failed to visit two of his oldest friends for a really long time, so long that Bulma had aged noticeably by the time they reunited. Uub represents Goku regaining that lust for life and his drive to see the next generation of warriors succeed, after he'd basically given up on seeing his own children cut the mustard.

It's times like these when you realise that without the promise of fighting and adventure, Goku's life is quite empty and depressing. Like many great men in history, he struggles in times of peace, when there's no challenge or conflict left to overcome. One lore addition from Super I do appreciate (well, technically it was first revealed to us in that Tarble special) is his successful radish farming career which, while more boring than training/fighting, gives him some enjoyment and purpose beyond those things.

Goten and Trunks did seem to have more of a fighting spirirt than Oob at a similar age imo, I'm not sure why they stopped caring given how much they loved thrill seeking in the buu saga but I guess EOZ decided they dont have the thirst. Oob only signed up because he wanted to get the prize money to help his family not for the sake of improving his skill as a martial artist. I think what little we saw of Pan was more inline with a youngster who wants to fight for the thrills compared to Oob. I do appreciate how the ending at least tries to bring back the idea of Goku passing the torch though, it just kind of falls short for me because I have no reason to be invested in Oob other than the fact that he's a reincarnation of Boo.

I think Goten and Trunks represent the Gen X/Millennial stereotype, the slacker generations. Goten's yee-yee ass haircut after the time-skip only solidifies this. They ultimately just want to lead peaceful, normal lives. Uub, in contrast to Goku and Vegeta's kids, hasn't led a privileged life and bears a lot of responsibility for someone so young. However, like Gohan in his youth, Uub has inherited a hidden power that only awakens when he's righteously enraged. What excites Goku so much about Uub is that even without proper training, the boy can already spar evenly with him. Pan is cute and enthusiastic, but, harsh as it is, she's still too young and weak to give Goku any sort of challenge. Uub basically has everything Goku's looking for: a good, heroic heart, buckets of latent fighting potential, and the natural strength to provide him a good sparring match whenever he gets bored.

I can see that to an extent, I feel that goku was acting altruistically mainly because he could have come back to earth anytime he wanted to, especially given how bored he was in the afterlife. All he would need to do is communicate with the namekians.

I'm sure Goku probably thought the afterlife would be more exciting thanit ultimately was(although if we’re going by the anime continuity, then it was exciting)

[tonysoprano300]

Weirdly enough, The thing about the half breed saiyans not having the will to improve and push themselves like their full blooded fathers always kind of rubbed me the wrong way, at least when you incorporate the context of the original DB. When Goku went through his adventures as a kid, he contended with and fought alongside plenty of legit martial artists who pushed themselves hard for the sake of improving themselves. Krillin, Tien and Yamcha all embraced this ideology. Its seemed to be a philosophical thing that a good martial artist would embrace and I got the sense that they all pushed themselves because of that.

It seemed like something they were taught rather than it being inherently due to saiyan biology, turtle school’s philosophy of avoiding defeat by ones own self and seeking out challenge to test your ability and further focus your training ultimately feels like something Goku was always gonna do anyway because he’s a saiyan.

I always preferred the idea of Gohan not liking battle(although even that’s somewhat inconsistent) because he was abducted as a child and forced to be weapon for an upcoming war. And that Goku never really had an opportunity to impart the martial arts philosophies taught to him by various masters because Chi Chi wouldn’t allow it. Not necessarily because he isn’t a full blooded saiyan.

[AliTheZombie13]

I'm sure Goku probably thought the afterlife would be more exciting thanit ultimately was(although if we’re going by the anime continuity, then it was exciting)

Isn't that one anime mini-arc semi-canon? The Grand Kai is directly referenced in Toriyama's material and one of the filler Kais makes a cameo in the manga.