The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[FinalPilaf]

I hope this topic doesn't overlap too much with other already created threads. But while we have a thread about the future of the DB franchise without it's creator, I wanted to create this thread as well to be more about the end of the fan-percieved notion of "Toriyama canon". Much like how many Star Wars fans refuses to aknowledge anything without involvement from George Lucas as canon, so does some Dragon ball fans dismiss anything without significant involvement by Toriyama as non canon. More however, even among fans that don't actually dismiss anything not by Toriayma as con-canon, the idea that one way to look at DB canon is through the lens of how much involvement the man had in a production is a widespread notion. Especially since the beggning of the Super part of the franchise where the same stroies have been told up to 3 times (movies, the TV series, and the manga) it's been more up to fans than ever before to decide for themselves how to reconcile these medium and try to comprehend a "core" canon. And a common way to start when trying to go about this task has been "what was Toriyama's original ideas?".

And now we've reached the end of the era when new Dragon Ball material can be looked at through this lens. Well, not yet actually. There are still some DB productions with Toriayama's involvement that are in productions that haven't been released yet. But let's jump ahead a few years, and then we will truly fully be in an age where "what was the creators ideas?" is no longer a question we can ask ourselves.

And while Daima is just around the corner and while at least probably a few manga chapters that happened under Toriyama's oversight are yet to be released, even now I can't help but think that we've more or less seen the end of the original DB vision. Maybe Daima will significantly change things around that echoes throughout the entire fictional universe, or maybe it will be more of a side story without much in the way of permanent reprocusions for the DB universe. And especially if it's the latter, then we can already now more or less look at the state of the DB universe and see how the pieces were placed when it all ended. Goku never beat Beerus. We will never know what Black Frieza was planning. Ultra Instinct ended up being Goku's strongest form. Gohan ended up, in all likelyhood, being more powerful than his father, even though his father is obviously a superior fighter. This last part actually feels, well, appropriate, since this is essentially where we left of after the end of the original DB manga. "Gohan is the strongest unfused Z fighter". Remember that one? And yet even so Goku ended up being the one to defeat Majin Boo... It's come full circle. All that hinting that took place throughout the entire DBZ part of the manga about Gohan having the potential to surpass his father came true, and yet even so Goku was never displaced as the greatest fighter of them all. That's how Toriyama's Dragon Ball ended in 1995, and at least so far, it looks like that's pretty much where Toriyama's Dragon Ball ended permanently (although we'll have to wait a few manga chapters to see if Toriyama-approved content throws some kind of complete curve ball here).

It's going to feel so weird that moving forward, fans will not be able to look at any one persons vision for new DB stories as the most "true" vision. It's like looking into a universe whose God has passed away...

[Trouser]

Every new story created post Daima is going to be "non-canon" by definition and fandom standards. Super's manga is probably going to be finished with whatever Toriyama left in notes and that's it. The End. We are entering a new era, an era where every new story just doesn't matter.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Dragon Ball has no canon and never did. It's more of a western concept.

Just enjoy what you enjoy regardless of what anyone thinks.

[AliTheZombie13]

There was never any "canon" outside the original manga.
Super, the anime, has cameos of filler characters like Pizza, Caroni, mentions of Maron and direct references to filler events like Bulma's Frog Shenanigans on Namek.
Super, the manga, includes numerous concepts the anime continuity invented, like Gregory and Mt. Paozu.
Both versions of Super also include cameos of characters that are designed like the races introduced in the Black Star arc of GT.

Is Gregory canon? Is Maron canon? Is Pizza, Caroni, etc. canon? Is GT canon, or at least its alien races canon?
Oh, and don't even get me started on Bardock, whose anime version is directly acknowledged as canon in the manga, before Toriyama retconned his entire story decades later.

Past the original manga, canon doesn't matter in Dragon Ball.
Never did, never will.

[DragonBallFoodie]

Toriyama canon is flexible. He turned Vegeta from a villain to an anti-hero, he forgot about Lunch, he made Piccolo an alien being when he was previously a demon, and so on.

Just go with it and enjoy it.

[MasenkoHA]

As weird as it will be to have Dragon Ball with no input from Toriyama (which I kind of want Daima to be it) we already have plenty of Dragon Ball material that Toriyama didn't write. I don't see too much changing. Just more GT and Moro type stuff.

Toriyama canon is flexible. He turned Vegeta from a villain to an anti-hero

That's called character development not flexible canon

he forgot about Lunch

No he did not

,

he made Piccolo an alien being when he was previously a demon, and so on..

Once again, the reveal Piccolo was an alien did not retcon his demon nature. Him being a demon was not only a plot point but discussed by Kami and Popo in the very same arc that revealed he and Kami were aliens. Even Krillin brought up Piccolo was once a demon all the way into the Boo arc

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

he made Piccolo an alien being when he was previously a demon, and so on..

Once again, the reveal Piccolo was an alien did not retcon his demon nature. Him being a demon was not only a plot point but discussed by Kami and Popo in the very same arc that revealed he and Kami were aliens.

I think we can at least partly blame Funimation's dub of original Dragon Ball for this as there are two instances of Lord Piccolo being referred to as an "alien", firstly in the recap at the beginning of episode 103 and again in episode 122 when he said he fought beings "all over the universe".

I can believe there are fans that watched these episodes on Toonami, and assumed with the knowledge Z aired later than the original series in Japan that this was what Piccolo was meant to be.

For reasons like this I do believe that anyone who wants to watch the series in English should seek out Blue Water's dub as it makes neither mistake, amongst other things.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Toei put Toriyama in the forefront of every animated project each time being "he is more involved than last time!"

Daima I will reckon will be the end of animated modern DB (the website did mention he had works unfinished, if he was working on another animated project I reckon Toei would leave it at least I hope they do)

The manga is currently being produced in a video game magazine, has zero effect on the greater franchise and written and drawn by someone not called Toriyama there is no reason for that not to continue unless said person doesn't want too

Tbh modern DB was outstaying it's welcome, so I reckon it's not gonna be a bad thing for it to end with Daima.

[JulieYBM]

Canon is no reason to experience a work of art. Canon is no reason to out a work of art in a pedastool. There's nothing fun—and entirely too much importance given to—worrying about silliness like 'canon'. Find a work of art that you enjoy and enjoy it for that.

[MasenkoHA]

he made Piccolo an alien being when he was previously a demon, and so on..

Once again, the reveal Piccolo was an alien did not retcon his demon nature. Him being a demon was not only a plot point but discussed by Kami and Popo in the very same arc that revealed he and Kami were aliens.

I think we can at least partly blame Funimation's dub of original Dragon Ball for this as there are two instances of Lord Piccolo being referred to as an "alien", firstly in the recap at the beginning of episode 103 and again in episode 122 when he said he fought beings "all over the universe".

I can believe there are fans that watched these episodes on Toonami, and assumed with the knowledge Z aired later than the original series in Japan that this was what Piccolo was meant to be.

For reasons like this I do believe that anyone who wants to watch the series in English should seek out Blue Water's dub as it makes neither mistake, amongst other things.

Oh the Funimation dub absolutely plays a part in this fandom misconception. The Z dub removes any and all references to him being a demon (including in Kai) and the original Dragon ball dub not only refers to him as an alien multiple times, despite thats not being revealed until to Z, but only vaguely addresses the demon thing by pointing out the Ma kanji means devil and referring to it at the "mark of the demon" once. They also don't even bother to explain WHY Krillin and the others can't cross over to the Next World they just can't. It's so clumsily worded they make it sound like Shenron being destroyed has something to do with it.


At the same time, when Piccolo's backstory literally involves him being the physical form of the evil inside the Nameless Namekian, I dunno, seems like willfull obtuseness after a cetain point to say "Nah that aint a demon" . Like dub fans saying Dragon Ball Z doesn't have martial arts despite the dub calling them martial artist, talking about martial arts, etc

Canon is no reason to experience a work of art. Canon is no reason to out a work of art in a pedastool. There's nothing fun—and entirely too much importance given to—worrying about silliness like 'canon'. Find a work of art that you enjoy and enjoy it for that.

QFT. Canon or not canon shouldn't influence one's enjoyment

[Thanos]

Dragon Ball has no canon and never did. It's more of a western concept.

I really don’t understand how you can make this case. It feels like some people try to deliberately ignore it for the sake of making certain points. There essentially is canon in every way except for it being officially declared. There’s a reason you only see Z movie villains appear in GT and not the series proper, or how Broly can show up in Super, having never been seen or met by Goku & co., even though there have been three Z movies with a different version of the character.

Canon… continuities… call it what you want, but clearly it exists. To say it’s silly or irrelevant is untrue. If I ask you at what point in the manga or Z series Coola shows up, you know the answer already. He doesn’t exist in the mainline canon/continuity, which is also the same continuity in which SSJGod appears, but SSJ4 does not. We also know which ones Toriyama is involved in. It’s really quite simple.

It’s certainly up to the viewer to determine what they want to “count” or not, just like anything else even with franchises with established canon (plenty of OG Star Wars fan don’t count the canon prequels, or ignore the sequel trilogy, for example).

[SupremeKai25]

From now on, I'll see every new Super content as I do Heroes and GT: a side stuff, largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

If it doesn't have the Toriyama stamp of approval like the Movies, U6/FT/TOP arcs, and Daima, it's not part of the story he wanted to tell.

[eledoremassis02]

What about his son?

"As promised, the creator did oversee the story of Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero, and Toriyama did so with his only son.


'Norihiro Hayashida, the producer at Toei Animation, explains that Akira Toriyama's son, Sasuke Toriyama was in charge of taking care of his father's legacy in Super Hero.'

Via: @SensaCineMx pic.twitter.com/mkwypQkYNA"

https://comicbook.com/anime/news/dragon ... per%20Hero.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

There essentially is canon in every way except for it being officially declared.

At best you can say "the original manga as published in weekly Shonen Jump from 1984 to 1995", but after that it's really not so clear cut. "Toriyama's Involvement" doesn't cut it because we don't know to what extent that is. GT you can argue he probably had little to do with other than the character designs, but then you have fans who criticize Vegeta's moustache, which was Toriyama. Resurrection F it was said that Toriyama wrote the script, but that's doubtful. Then for Super it was likely just vague bullet points, but the fact the source material (the Super anime) and the adaptation (the Super manga) differed we can also rule out "the manga" as a definition, unless you go with the aforementioned clarification. It's just such a mess, I don't know why we should care about it anymore. All Toriyama wanted to do was tell a story primarily for kids that he probably never thought would look so deeply into these things, and TOEI justed want their anime and movies as commercials for toys and other merch.

There’s a reason you only see Z movie villains appear in GT and not the series proper, or how Broly can show up in Super, having never been seen or met by Goku & co., even though there have been three Z movies with a different version of the character. If I ask you at what point in the manga or Z series Coola shows up, you know the answer already.

If there were even more filler arcs in Z I wouldn't have put it past TOEI to have a "Cooler arc" where he somehow returns, they did it with Garlic Junior. All they cared about when they made this show was getting it on Fuji TV and not falling behind the manga. Consistency was never a concern for them.

He doesn’t exist in the official canon/continuity, which is also the same continuity in which SSJGod appears, but SSJ4 does not. We also know which ones Toriyama is involved in. It’s really quite simple.

Which continuity though? The Super anime? The manga? Hell what about Battle of Gods? That was Super Saiyan God's introduction to any proposed continuity, but all three means of consuming this content differ. If anyone involved with the production of Dragon Ball wanted there to be a definitive vision for the Battle of Gods story we would have got one, but instead we got three conflicting continuities.

That's why I say canon doesn't matter in Dragon Ball, yes any fan would and should want a baseline of continuity but we've never got that and now we certainly won't.

[AliTheZombie13]

At best you can say "the original manga as published in weekly Shonen Jump from 1984 to 1995", but after that it's really not so clear cut. "Toriyama's Involvement" doesn't cut it because we don't know to what extent that is. GT you can argue he probably had little to do with other than the character designs, but then you have fans who criticize Vegeta's moustache, which was Toriyama.

GT's case to me, and by extension Daima, is especially insulting.
Toriyama has stated in multiple interviews he liked what Toei's writers came up with at the time and even expressed interest in making Goku a child again, which did eventually happen with Daima.

That's not to mention other instances even in the original manga where Toriyama's own feelings about his work were just not enough for the fanbase, including how he changed the tone of the story drastically after the first arc to make DB more appealing to a broader audience, or how he ditched the entire Gohan as the Protagonist/Great Saiyaman concept because kids back then wanted more epic fights.

Cue Daima in 2023, half the fanbase insults it as "GT 2.0", saying that they'd rather see a continuation to Super, even though Toriyama has stated Daima was something he wanted to do with all his heart and had full control over, rather than just Toei or whoever pushing him around for the sake of milking the franchise, which was the case with BoG and Super.

"Artistic integrity" seems to only matter when things go the fans' way, rather than the creator's.

[SupremeKai25]

There essentially is canon in every way except for it being officially declared.

At best you can say "the original manga as published in weekly Shonen Jump from 1984 to 1995", but after that it's really not so clear cut. "Toriyama's Involvement" doesn't cut it because we don't know to what extent that is. GT you can argue he probably had little to do with other than the character designs, but then you have fans who criticize Vegeta's moustache, which was Toriyama. Resurrection F it was said that Toriyama wrote the script, but that's doubtful. Then for Super it was likely just vague bullet points, but the fact the source material (the Super anime) and the adaptation (the Super manga) differed we can also rule out "the manga" as a definition, unless you go with the aforementioned clarification. It's just such a mess, I don't know why we should care about it anymore. All Toriyama wanted to do was tell a story primarily for kids that he probably never thought would look so deeply into these things, and TOEI justed want their anime and movies as commercials for toys and other merch.

There’s a reason you only see Z movie villains appear in GT and not the series proper, or how Broly can show up in Super, having never been seen or met by Goku & co., even though there have been three Z movies with a different version of the character. If I ask you at what point in the manga or Z series Coola shows up, you know the answer already.

If there were even more filler arcs in Z I wouldn't have put it past TOEI to have a "Cooler arc" where he somehow returns, they did it with Garlic Junior. All they cared about when they made this show was getting it on Fuji TV and not falling behind the manga. Consistency was never a concern for them.

He doesn’t exist in the official canon/continuity, which is also the same continuity in which SSJGod appears, but SSJ4 does not. We also know which ones Toriyama is involved in. It’s really quite simple.

Which continuity though? The Super anime? The manga? Hell what about Battle of Gods? That was Super Saiyan God's introduction to any proposed continuity, but all three means of consuming this content differ. If anyone involved with the production of Dragon Ball wanted there to be a definitive vision for the Battle of Gods story we would have got one, but instead we got three conflicting continuities.

That's why I say canon doesn't matter in Dragon Ball, yes any fan would and should want a baseline of continuity but we've never got that and now we certainly won't.

You're conflating two different things. Which medium is the closest to "true canon" (what you are talking about) and the actual storyline that is Canon.

The storylines of Super are part of Toriyama's Canon, that is beyond doubt. His involvement with them goes beyond GT; whereas with GT he worked only on some designs, for the Super storylines he literally created them, starting with BoG (which he basically remade into a new story after Toei's botched attempt).

It can be argued which medium recreated Toriyama's vision for those arcs the best, but it cannot be argued that those arcs aren't Canon. It's a fact that they are Canon and part of Toriyama's vision.

So, it is Canon and part of Toriyama's story that these are all events that happened before the 28th Tournament:

- Goku fighting Beerus;
- The resurrection of Frieza;
- A tournament between two universes;
- Future Trunks' return;
- The Tournament of Power;
- Broly;
- The business with Moro;
- The business with the Heeters and Black Frieza;
- Super Hero;
- The ongoing New arc;
- Daima.

The events of Heroes? The events of the other videogames like Xenoverse 2? Those are events that Toriyama did not plan to happen before the 28th Tournament. Therefore, they are not part of Toriyama's vision of the overall story and of what happened before the End of Z according to Toriyama.

[Dbzk1999]

Resurrection F it was said that Toriyama wrote the script, but that's doubtful.

Don’t have too much of a horse in this race, but this in particular isn’t really doubtful. Volume F, a supplementary guidebook for Resurrection F, includes the original script/screenplay written by Toriyama.

[MasenkoHA]

At best you can say "the original manga as published in weekly Shonen Jump from 1984 to 1995", but after that it's really not so clear cut.

That's where I'm at. The 1984-1995, Jaco, and Dragon Ball Minus (for better or worse) are canon. Everything else isn't.

By no means does that make the non-canon/quasi canon stuff bad.
.

The events of Heroes? The events of the other videogames like Xenoverse 2? Those are events that Toriyama did not plan to happen before the 28th Tournament. Therefore, they are not part of Toriyama's vision of the overall story and of what happened before the End of Z according to Toriyama.

Toriyama also didn't plan on literally any of the stuff from Super happening when he wrote the ending of his original manga in 1995. There was an era of peace after Majin Boo was defeated but Super said nope. Gohan retired from fighting and became a scholar by the 28th tournament but Super had him becoming a fighter again....twice. Goku still has an invested interest in Majin Boo's reincarnation which makes no sense after meeting Beerus, Whis, Hiit, Jiren, and especially Broli.

Super is much less "Toriyama's true vision" and more Toriyama half-heartedly getting involved in nostalgia cash grab because this shit is gonna happen anyways (as seen with Evolution, Yo Son Goku, Episode of Bardock, and the original planned BoG)

Super might as well be its own canon because it flat out cannot fit into where it's supposed to without hitting the reset button and giving everyone mass amnesia.

[GhostEmperorX]

In the first place, if you're going to open up a discussion on this, you can't restrict it to this franchise alone, considering just how many other shounen manga franchises follow similar conventions with spinoffs/side stories (外伝), theatrical versions (劇場版) that may not be sequels, etc
And if a specific term is or isn't applicable, then it goes for not just this series, but for all of them. Consider this fact that it has been used for everything that follows similar formats.

As far as Toriyama, the situation is simply that he won't be penning anything anymore, and other people will tell their own stories.

[WittyUsername]

Dragon Ball is all fiction so the debates about “canon” are a bit pointless. I don’t think Shuiesha or Toei care nearly as much about what qualifies as “canon” as fans in the West do.

Neither the anime nor the manga versions of DBS have strictly followed the original manga. They’ve pulled stuff from the prior anime series as well. The anime version of the Tournament of Power even references that bit in Movie 7 about how Goku can’t use the Genki Dama when he’s a Super Saiyan, even though that was something Toei made up.