Trunks and Goten are weaker than A18

[Sensiblesaiyans]

I remember before Battle of Gods came out, a lot of Dragon Ball fans though Base Goten and Trunks were rivals to Android 18 due to the fact that she wasn't able to one shot them prior to them transforming. This shows that a lot of dragon ball fans lack media literacy and tend to just think of things in a vacuum rather than looking at the context of a story. The plot in Dragon Ball is dictated by the author's desire, as well as, character motive and morals. A18 likely is fully aware she doesn't have good control of her powers (as evident by the punching machine) and would have a hard time gauging how much power to use to incapacitate mighty mask but not kill him outright.

For understanding why Trunks and Goten are weaker than 18 look at these points.

1) At the start of the Buu arc, we see Trunks struggling to move at 150x earth Gravity which was 1/2 the amount that Vegeta trained in order to prepare for the Androids. We know Trunks inability to move at said Gravity is not due to not being unaccustomed to it as he effortlessly moves as SSJ. This already highlights that Base Trunks is weaker than Base Vegeta from the Android saga. The same Vegeta that got beat down by Android 18. We know that Vegeta while stronger than his cell games self isn't that strong by leaps and bounds and most of the fighters growth in the 7 years was due to being able to access stronger transformations.

https://youtu.be/AZ9NlOaS_3U?si=gkdda2Q7Njnhxgcf

2) In Yo son Goku and friends, Abo and Kado are stated by Tarble to be as powerful as Frieza. Goku laments that Frieza is not much of an opponent now but thinks someone of that level would be an appropriate opponent for base Goten and Trunks. Keep in mind Tarble is referring to 1st form frieza as Frieza has rarely revealed his other forms in battle and someone as weak as Tarble likely would never have seen his 3rd let alone 4th form. Now, looking at the fight, it can be seen that Abo and Kado initially take Trunks and Goten for granted due to them being children but quickly are able to fight equal to them once serious. This is evident by the fact that after the skirmish, both combatants are seen breathing heavily and once Abo and Kado use multi-form they actually gain an advantage.

https://youtu.be/vLlidNWb0MA?si=JU-CHaOylifUATGH

3) Many fans think the adults reaction to how strong the kids are is an indicator of them actually being a threat. However, they fail to take into account that this is just a running gag that Toriyama is using and they aren't that strong. Trunks does no damage at all to Vegeta when he tried to punch him in the gravity room. Gohan makes some passing remark about how the boys might surpass him if he keeps slacking off but that could be him doing an introspective comparison of his PL at their age and rapid growth as child to a teen. A18 reaction of her sweating seems more of a surprise of how powerful they are for being little kids and her wanting to end things early seems more like a concern for public safety given they were firing ki blast off recklessly and she had her daughter in the stand watching her. Even disregarding all this, the boys do nothing of note for the entire arc other than being fusion fodder and were easily incapacitated by a half dead Majin vegeta who was about to blow himself up against Majin Buu.

4) In order to beat the A18, you need to be above Grade 1 SSJ. We know Trunks and Goten are grade 1 because in order to reach grade 4 you need to be a continuous SSJ for an extended period of times, like months, and someone like Gohan and Vegeta would have noticed this given they actively live with them and can sense ki. In addition, we know they are not grade 2 and 3 due to not having the muscular features associated with said form.

Thus, in conclusion the boys are strong for kids but are no threat to the non-human/saiyan adults

[The Monkey King]

Nope.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks turns Super Saiyan and prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

Read the manga. A single ki blast from a SSJ Kid Trunks who was holding back made #18 shit herself. Trunks would one shot her

Also gravity numbers don't really matter, it's about getting used to it, raw physical strength is not the be all end all of battle power in Dragon Ball.

Vegeta was using SSJ to train in 150G, is he now weaker than his Android saga self?

Yamcha had a PL equivalent to Raditz but still struggled with 10Gs

Chapter: 261 (DBZ 67), P2.8
Yamcha: “Anyway, I’ve really had it with the gravity here. My body’s heavy and I can’t even run easily.”

The Daizenshuu even describes Goten's battle power as being in the same range as Gohan's, a character who could oneshot #18

Goten posses battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan.

Spoiler:

Your Yo Son Goku! point also doesn't make sense. How could Goku be referring to a version of Freeza that he never met? Wouldn't he comment that Abo and Cado were considerably weaker than the Freeza he fought?

Goten and Trunks were introduced as insanely OP. The Buu saga is 30 years old, it's time to get over it.

Your entire thread reads of desperate cope filled with your weird, biased conjecture as opposed to what actually happened on the page.

[Sensiblesaiyans]

Nope.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks turns Super Saiyan and prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

Read the manga. A single ki blast from a SSJ Kid Trunks who was holding back made #18 shit herself. Trunks would one shot her

Also gravity numbers don't really matter, it's about getting used to it, raw physical strength is not the be all end all of battle power in Dragon Ball.

Vegeta was using SSJ to train in 150G, is he now weaker than his Android saga self?

Yamcha had a PL equivalent to Raditz but still struggled with 10Gs

Chapter: 261 (DBZ 67), P2.8
Yamcha: “Anyway, I’ve really had it with the gravity here. My body’s heavy and I can’t even run easily.”

The Daizenshuu even describes Goten's battle power as being in the same range as Gohan's, a character who could oneshot #18

Goten posses battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan.

Spoiler:

Your Yo Son Goku! point also doesn't make sense. How could Goku be referring to a version of Freeza that he never met? Wouldn't he comment that Abo and Cado were considerably weaker than the Freeza he fought?

Goten and Trunks were introduced as insanely OP. The Buu saga is 30 years old, it's time to get over it.

Read my post. Every single one of my point is addressed and showcase in the video. Yamcha says he can't run easily but he can still move and run. Trunks can barely walk in base and as a SSJ can move freely. Its a tell tale sign that his problem in the gravity chamber is due to being weak and not because he is not accustom to it..

Also, 18 being shocked by the boys blast holding back is not indicator that they were a threat with her. This is fans injecting their head cannon into the scene about a characters feelings when its quite clear that Toriyama was having a longstanding running gag of all the adults being surprised at how strong the kids are. Even after shooting the blast, 18 counters with a destructo disc and the boys fail to get out the way despite it being one of the slowest ki base attacks in the series.

Lastly, if you are implying that base trunks and goten are on par with frieza given goku never having met weaker versions of him then that is also is wrong as battle of the gods confirms that all base saiyans are weaker than namek frieza.

[The Monkey King]

More cope

If #18 is soooooo much stronger than Goten and Trunks why didn't she tank or easily deflect the ki blast from SSJ Trunks who was holding back?

Spoiler:

This is after she realised they were Super saiyans by the way, this is the same 18 that could easily tank blasts from Android saga SSJ Vegeta.

Occam's razor says it's because SSJ Kid Trunks >>> #18

Not to mention Trunks held back specifically so the ki blast wouldn't kill her

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

If you have to write paragraphs of cope to "dispute" this it means you're method of thinking is flawed.

You sound like one of those Kid Buu > Super Buu crayon eaters.

[Sensiblesaiyans]

More cope

If #18 is soooooo much stronger than Goten and Trunks why didn't she tank or easily deflect the ki blast from SSJ Trunks who was holding back?

Spoiler:

This is after she realised they were Super saiyans by the way, this is the same 18 that could easily tank blasts from Android saga SSJ Vegeta.

Occam's razor says it's because SSJ Kid Trunks >>> #18

Not to mention Trunks held back specifically so the ki blast wouldn't kill her

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

If you have to write paragraphs of cope to "dispute" this it means you're method of thinking is flawed.

You sound like one of those Kid Buu > Super Buu crayon eaters.

Because Dragon Ball characters don't often do things exactly like fans want them to do. They don't always tank attacks or take punches and sometimes dodge. Also actions of characters are dictated by plot and what the author wants the character to do.

Trunks said to hold back the attack does not indicate that 18 was at a disadvantage as 18 has no ki signature for the boys to read and this is the first time the boys are actively engaging in a battle with her. So any assessment of trunks understanding of A18's power is likely brought on by arrogance due to him being raised by Vegeta. Trunks has no way to make an accurate assessment of how strong 18 was because she held back the lionshare of her power against them when they fought in base. And we know this because all base saiyans are inferior to Namek frieza who is literally nothing to 18.

None of this is cope. Everything her is looking the scene while understanding the mini story plot/gag that Toriyama was trying to convey to the audience. Basically it was a short mini gag of "wow kids are so strong and the adults are super surprised".

[Yasai9001]

None of this is cope. Everything her is looking the scene while understanding the mini story plot/gag that Toriyama was trying to convey to the audience. Basically it was a short mini gag of "wow kids are so strong and the adults are super surprised".

Pretty similar to how Gohan was surprised that Goten was as strong as he was when he started training by having rocks thrown at him. Correct me if I'm wrong (memory's a little fuzzy), but there have been occasions where people believed that Goten was just about as strong as Gohan, though not strong enough to actually beat him; I believe that Goten was insanely powerful, but nowhere near enough to challenge his brother. Gohan was still holding back a considerable amount due to his insane mastery over ki control and the Super Saiyan Form.

And also similar to how Vegeta was holding back against Trunks so much in the gravity chamber that he left himself a wide enough of an opening to get punched in the face by an amateur Super Saiyan.

[The Monkey King]

Even more cope

>Toriyama portrays Kid Trunks as being strong enough to make SSJ Vegeta put in effort during sparring

Spoiler:

>Toriyama portrays Goten as being strong enough to make SSJ Gohan put in effort during sparring

Spoiler:

>Toriyama portrays Kid Trunks as being strong enough to make 18 panic while he's holding back

Spoiler:

Also in the Buu saga base saiyans were portrayed as being stronger than Piccolo and 18, hence Vegeta's confidence when entering the tournament:

Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”
Trunks (with Goten): “We’re fine too!”

Before knowing about super saiyan, Babidi deemed the base saiyans to be stronger than Piccolo:

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.”

Taking all of the above into consideration, there is absolutely no reasonable way to conclude that Toriyama intended Goten and Trunks to be inferior to Android saga super saiyans, who would be absolutely worthless fodder by the time of the Buu saga.

Call it stupid power creep if you want but denying what's on the page makes you look deluded.

Hell, if you take DBS into account, there's Goten and Trunks holding their own against multiple Cell Jrs:

Spoiler:

Since Goten and Trunks didn't train since the Buu saga they are still comparable to their Buu saga selves.

[super michael]

Nope.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks turns Super Saiyan and prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

Read the manga. A single ki blast from a SSJ Kid Trunks who was holding back made #18 shit herself. Trunks would one shot her

Also gravity numbers don't really matter, it's about getting used to it, raw physical strength is not the be all end all of battle power in Dragon Ball.

Vegeta was using SSJ to train in 150G, is he now weaker than his Android saga self?

Yamcha had a PL equivalent to Raditz but still struggled with 10Gs

Chapter: 261 (DBZ 67), P2.8
Yamcha: “Anyway, I’ve really had it with the gravity here. My body’s heavy and I can’t even run easily.”

The Daizenshuu even describes Goten's battle power as being in the same range as Gohan's, a character who could oneshot #18

Goten posses battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan.

Spoiler:

Your Yo Son Goku! point also doesn't make sense. How could Goku be referring to a version of Freeza that he never met? Wouldn't he comment that Abo and Cado were considerably weaker than the Freeza he fought?

Goten and Trunks were introduced as insanely OP. The Buu saga is 30 years old, it's time to get over it.

Read my post. Every single one of my point is addressed and showcase in the video. Yamcha says he can't run easily but he can still move and run. Trunks can barely walk in base and as a SSJ can move freely. Its a tell tale sign that his problem in the gravity chamber is due to being weak and not because he is not accustom to it..

Also, 18 being shocked by the boys blast holding back is not indicator that they were a threat with her. This is fans injecting their head cannon into the scene about a characters feelings when its quite clear that Toriyama was having a longstanding running gag of all the adults being surprised at how strong the kids are. Even after shooting the blast, 18 counters with a destructo disc and the boys fail to get out the way despite it being one of the slowest ki base attacks in the series.

Lastly, if you are implying that base trunks and goten are on par with frieza given goku never having met weaker versions of him then that is also is wrong as battle of the gods confirms that all base saiyans are weaker than namek frieza.

The costume made it impossible for Goten and Trunks to dodge C18 Kienza, Goten and Trunks went in opposite direction.
That is why Goten and Trunks relied on ki blast in the first place, since the costume gave them many disadvantage. They can't dodge, move properly, kick and even see properly. Not being able to see against a opponent that they can't sense ki is a huge disadvantage.
We can't downplay the costume disadvantage

C18 wanted to DQ Goten and Trunks and even relied a Kienza, a technique known for killing opponents or slicing limbs.

[Sensiblesaiyans]

Nope.


Read the manga. A single ki blast from a SSJ Kid Trunks who was holding back made #18 shit herself. Trunks would one shot her

Also gravity numbers don't really matter, it's about getting used to it, raw physical strength is not the be all end all of battle power in Dragon Ball.

Vegeta was using SSJ to train in 150G, is he now weaker than his Android saga self?

Yamcha had a PL equivalent to Raditz but still struggled with 10Gs



The Daizenshuu even describes Goten's battle power as being in the same range as Gohan's, a character who could oneshot #18

Spoiler:

Your Yo Son Goku! point also doesn't make sense. How could Goku be referring to a version of Freeza that he never met? Wouldn't he comment that Abo and Cado were considerably weaker than the Freeza he fought?

Goten and Trunks were introduced as insanely OP. The Buu saga is 30 years old, it's time to get over it.

Read my post. Every single one of my point is addressed and showcase in the video. Yamcha says he can't run easily but he can still move and run. Trunks can barely walk in base and as a SSJ can move freely. Its a tell tale sign that his problem in the gravity chamber is due to being weak and not because he is not accustom to it..

Also, 18 being shocked by the boys blast holding back is not indicator that they were a threat with her. This is fans injecting their head cannon into the scene about a characters feelings when its quite clear that Toriyama was having a longstanding running gag of all the adults being surprised at how strong the kids are. Even after shooting the blast, 18 counters with a destructo disc and the boys fail to get out the way despite it being one of the slowest ki base attacks in the series.

Lastly, if you are implying that base trunks and goten are on par with frieza given goku never having met weaker versions of him then that is also is wrong as battle of the gods confirms that all base saiyans are weaker than namek frieza.

The costume made it impossible for Goten and Trunks to dodge C18 Kienza, Goten and Trunks went in opposite direction.
That is why Goten and Trunks relied on ki blast in the first place, since the costume gave them many disadvantage. They can't dodge, move properly, kick and even see properly. Not being able to see against a opponent that they can't sense ki is a huge disadvantage.
We can't downplay the costume disadvantage

C18 wanted to DQ Goten and Trunks and even relied a Kienza, a technique known for killing opponents or slicing limbs.

The costume did hinder Trunks and Goten but not to the point that they were incapable of moving about at accelerated speeds in combat against A18 Yes, Trunks and Goten tried to dodge the kienza attack but they panicked and the costume got cut in two which revealed them.

The point being made here is that keinza is one of the slowest ki attacks in the show that even when multiple were used, stronger opponents were effortlessly able to dodge it. The fact Trunks and Goten panicked and were not able to casually move out of the way, like someone throwing a Frisbee at you, hints at them not being as strong as people think they are.

Also C18 using kienza was obviously used for comedic effect. It's no indicator that 18 was scared to engaged in a fight with Trunks and Goten.

[Sensiblesaiyans]

Even more cope

>Toriyama portrays Kid Trunks as being strong enough to make SSJ Vegeta put in effort during sparring

Spoiler:

>Toriyama portrays Goten as being strong enough to make SSJ Gohan put in effort during sparring

Spoiler:

>Toriyama portrays Kid Trunks as being strong enough to make 18 panic while he's holding back

Spoiler:

Also in the Buu saga base saiyans were portrayed as being stronger than Piccolo and 18, hence Vegeta's confidence when entering the tournament:

Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”
Trunks (with Goten): “We’re fine too!”

Before knowing about super saiyan, Babidi deemed the base saiyans to be stronger than Piccolo:

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.”

Taking all of the above into consideration, there is absolutely no reasonable way to conclude that Toriyama intended Goten and Trunks to be inferior to Android saga super saiyans, who would be absolutely worthless fodder by the time of the Buu saga.

Call it stupid power creep if you want but denying what's on the page makes you look deluded.

Hell, if you take DBS into account, there's Goten and Trunks holding their own against multiple Cell Jrs:

Spoiler:

Since Goten and Trunks didn't train since the Buu saga they are still comparable to their Buu saga selves.

Vegeta does not put effort during sparing. In fact, he is on the defense and then punches trunks once in the face which ends their fight.

Gohan is rusty and has no reason to go all out against his little brother who he just found out can turn SSJ.

Toriyama shows A18 being surprised that the little kids are that strong.

The point being, a lot of you guys try to self insert how you think the characters should act and miss when a central gag theme is being presented in front of you. Toriyama was a gag artist first before he got into fighting manga.

Vegeta stating he would beat everyone while not turning SSJ shouldn't be taken seriously given the character nature to boast about his power.

Babidi stating get rid of those three and calling everyone else trash can also be looked at him possibly being able to sense their latent energy. We don't know the whole context of how he was assessing powers.

Point being Toriyama stated the base saiyans are all weaker the frieza. There is no reason to make Trunks and Goten close to the adults in power when they serve no real purpose to the story plot other than being fusion material for gotenks. They have no major fights with any villain of note by individually and do nothing post buu arc other than being background characters for most of super.

[The Monkey King]

Vegeta does not put effort during sparing.

He clearly was against Trunks. You're just in denial.

Spoiler:

Here is an example of a character not putting in effort while sparring against a much weaker partner

Spoiler:

In fact, he is on the defense and then punches trunks once in the face which ends their fight.

Trunks put Vegeta under so much pressure that he lashed out and hit him with a serious punch (bulging veins in his forehead, arm and neck), which failed to even KO him.

Spoiler:

Gohan is rusty

SSJ Gohan was still strong enough to fight evenly against Dabura who's comparable to Super/Perfect Cell

and has no reason to go all out against his little brother

I didn't say "all out" I just said he had to put in effort.

Toriyama shows A18 being surprised that the little kids are that strong.

Toriyama shows that Kid Trunks has to hold back to not kill 18 with a single ki blast

The point being, a lot of you guys try to self insert how you think the characters should act and miss when a central gag theme is being presented in front of you. Toriyama was a gag artist first before he got into fighting manga.

What are you even trying to say here? Seriously? Toriyama made gags...? We all know this... so what?

Toriyama made many gags about Kid Goku being super strong... he's still strong despite it being within the context of a gag.

Babidi stating get rid of those three and calling everyone else trash can also be looked at him possibly being able to sense their latent energy.

Nonsense head canon cope. If that was the case he wouldn't have been surprised by super saiyan transformations at all.

Point being Toriyama stated the base saiyans are all weaker the frieza.

No different to Freeza boasting about gaining a PL of 1.3 million in Resurrection F. Nonsense that can be handwaved away by Toriyama not writing Dragon Ball almost 20 years.

There is no reason to make Trunks and Goten close to the adults in power

So they're strong enough to be useful in the Buu saga

when they serve no real purpose to the story plot other than being fusion material for gotenks.

They're both strong to Gotenks can be super strong. That's it, get over it.

They have no major fights with any villain of note by individually and do nothing post buu arc other than being background characters for most of super.

Since you ignored this part of my post I'll say it again

Hell, if you take DBS into account, there's Goten and Trunks holding their own against multiple Cell Jrs:

Spoiler:

Since Goten and Trunks didn't train since the Buu saga they are still comparable to their Buu saga selves.

If you think Android saga SSJ Vegeta would last more than a split second against 3 Cell Jrs you're insane

[Sensiblesaiyans]

Vegeta does not put effort during sparing.

He clearly was against Trunks. You're just in denial.

Spoiler:

Here is an example of a character not putting in effort while sparring against a much weaker partner

Spoiler:

In fact, he is on the defense and then punches trunks once in the face which ends their fight.

Trunks put Vegeta under so much pressure that he lashed out and hit him with a serious punch (bulging veins in his forehead, arm and neck), which failed to even KO him.

Spoiler:

Gohan is rusty

SSJ Gohan was still strong enough to fight evenly against Dabura who's comparable to Super/Perfect Cell

and has no reason to go all out against his little brother

I didn't say "all out" I just said he had to put in effort.

Toriyama shows A18 being surprised that the little kids are that strong.

Toriyama shows that Kid Trunks has to hold back to not kill 18 with a single ki blast

The point being, a lot of you guys try to self insert how you think the characters should act and miss when a central gag theme is being presented in front of you. Toriyama was a gag artist first before he got into fighting manga.

What are you even trying to say here? Seriously? Toriyama made gags...? We all know this... so what?

Toriyama made many gags about Kid Goku being super strong... he's still strong despite it being within the context of a gag.

Babidi stating get rid of those three and calling everyone else trash can also be looked at him possibly being able to sense their latent energy.

Nonsense head canon cope. If that was the case he wouldn't have been surprised by super saiyan transformations at all.

Point being Toriyama stated the base saiyans are all weaker the frieza.

No different to Freeza boasting about gaining a PL of 1.3 million in Resurrection F. Nonsense that can be handwaved away by Toriyama not writing Dragon Ball almost 20 years.

There is no reason to make Trunks and Goten close to the adults in power

So they're strong enough to be useful in the Buu saga

when they serve no real purpose to the story plot other than being fusion material for gotenks.

They're both strong to Gotenks can be super strong. That's it, get over it.

They have no major fights with any villain of note by individually and do nothing post buu arc other than being background characters for most of super.

Since you ignored this part of my post I'll say it again

Hell, if you take DBS into account, there's Goten and Trunks holding their own against multiple Cell Jrs:

Spoiler:

Since Goten and Trunks didn't train since the Buu saga they are still comparable to their Buu saga selves.

If you think Android saga SSJ Vegeta would last more than a split second against 3 Cell Jrs you're insane

1. Vegeta was not trying. He only threw 1 punch at Trunks, stayed still and allowed Trunks to throw a volley at punches at him. Once Vegeta threw one punch at Trunks the fight ended.

2. Vegeta only lashes out in reaction from being nicked on the cheek; which showed 0 damage. He then punches Trunks who ends up with a big fist imprint on his face and who subsequently throws the fight . Highlighting a clear gaps in their power. Trunks even admits that he is no match for his father and doubted he could even land a punch before vegeta bribed him.

3. Gohan was rusty at the start of Buu arc. He then trained with Goten to sharpen his skills and was still rusty by Goku and Vegeta standards. Gohan fought dabura as a SSJ2. Hence, why goku and vegeta were comparing his power to his SSJ2 Cell Game self. It would make 0 sense for them to compare his SSJ form to his SSJ2 form 7 years prior.

4. Having to put in some modicum of effort does not mean he put in a lot. You are tying to imply that Goten is close in strength to Gohan which is false.

5. Toriyama has Trunks state that they need to hold back on their ki attack. From someone who just looks at surface level info without looking at the whole picture yes it implies 18 is inferior. Someone who factors in the following: 1. 18 held back the lion share of their powers against them in base 2. Trunks cannot sense 18 power because she does not give off ki, would ask the simple question of how is Trunks assessing their power when he has no idea of where 18 strength lies. Anyone who understands this knows that just because character X says a statement does not mean said statement is true when you look at the whole picture.

6. "What are you even trying to say here? Seriously? Toriyama made gags...? We all know this... so what?"

When someone does "what are you even trying to say?" It shows a clear sign of someone who is not open to their views being changed and is just here to win an argument and push their views as being right.

The point is that Toriyama is willing to disregard power levels and power relations for the sake of telling a GAG. Characters aren't always going to act a way that fans expect them and their actions and behavior are dictated by the story and desire of the author.

7. Cry however you like. The boys in base are weaker than frieza. They are given no not worthy fights in the buu arc outside of being fusion material for gotenks. They never fought any major individuals on their own.

8. Please state your source where it was stated that Trunks and Goten stopped training and improving post buu arc. We know they got some training in the hyperbolic time chamber and the only mention of them slacking off that I can recall was in "Yo Son Goku and Friends" which takes place2 years before Battle of Gods. Do you realize a lot of stuff can happen over several years from that point?

[Hugo Boss]

Goten and Trunks were actually pretty close to early Buu arc Gohan in terms of their respective forms. Gohan training with Goten in preparation for the Budokai indicates Goten is somewhat close to Gohan’s level, otherwise the training wouldn’t have been meaningful.

Even later in the Tournament of Power arc, after slacking off for years, the boys were still able to stand up to Cell Jrs, which were stated to be as strong as the original ones from the Cell Games. That alone should tell us how strong they were.

[theherodjl]

Despite not improving much, Goten & Trunks have fought and survived against numerous opponents way more powerful than Android 18, and Android 18 has gotten trashed by nearly every serious opponent after Vegeta way back when. That kinda ends the argument right then & there.
For Android 18 to have been or remain stronger, all opponents Goten & Trunks have faced would all have had to arbitrarily hold back their strength to below Android 18's level when they fought so as to not to severely injure them...which is highly unlikely. This claim of Android 18 > Goten & Trunks is entirely reliant on them having insane plot armor as well as nothing but generous opponents. That must make them the luckiest characters in the series then.

[Piramid]

The android is stronger.

I'm not saying that Goten and Trunks are much weaker than 18, but I have no doubt that they are somewhat weaker. Why? Because when 18 finds out who they are after they transform into SSJ, even knowing that SSJ is an increase in their power, she doesn't seem worried about losing the fight. She even smiles when she finds out who they are.

Remember, she can't sense ki, so she has to rely on what she sees. If she isn't afraid of losing despite them being stronger in SSJ, then she must have seen herself as superior to the kids when they were in base form.

She only starts to think she might lose the fight when she sees the ki attack they launch at her, but before that, she doesn't think about it.

[miguelnuva1]

The android is stronger.

I'm not saying that Goten and Trunks are much weaker than 18, but I have no doubt that they are somewhat weaker. Why? Because when 18 finds out who they are after they transform into SSJ, even knowing that SSJ is an increase in their power, she doesn't seem worried about losing the fight. She even smiles when she finds out who they are.

Remember, she can't sense ki, so she has to rely on what she sees. If she isn't afraid of losing despite them being stronger in SSJ, then she must have seen herself as superior to the kids when they were in base form.

She only starts to think she might lose the fight when she sees the ki attack they launch at her, but before that, she doesn't think about it.

She can sense ki. She senses Majin Vegeta.

[Hugo Boss]

That scene is from filler, so its relevance to the main story is debatable. However, something similar happens in Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!, which could suggest that 18 eventually learned how to sense ki.

Sensing ki is a technique that can be taught, so even if 18 couldn’t do it during the Android arc, it’s possible that Krillin or someone else trained her in it later. That said, the manga never explicitly confirms that she learned it, just that the androids don’t rely on ki as their energy source and that they can improve through training.

So while it’s not impossible, there’s no solid confirmation in the manga itself.

[MasenkoHA]

Was Goten and Trunks deciding they need go Super Saiyan against her not sufficient evidence they were weaker than her in their base forms?

[dragon boss z]

There was a time when I had 18 above even the ssj kids, but at this point I think the most logical conclusion is probably base kids<18<ssj kids. I have no idea how wide the gaps should be either way tbh.

[dragon boss z]

You sound like one of those Kid Buu > Super Buu crayon eaters.

You were making some reasonable points until here. Basically all evidence points towards Kid Buu being above Super Buu (not including Buutenks and Buuhan). Even in the manga Buu's ki was stated to be going up, not down, when going from Super Buu to kid Buu. Saying it was only for Buff Buu is cope since that Buu never fights and it would be pointless to hype that form up. You bring up Occam's razor but this is a perfect case for Occam's razor telling us Kid Buu>Super Buu. The only evidence for Super Buu>Kid Buu is the evidence for Super Buu over ssj3 Goku and Goku being more afraid of Super Buu. Goku admits he underestimated Kid Buu and they should have fused on him, so that debunks the Goku's initial power interpretation, and as for Super Buu>Goku, that's a whole argument on its own but if I steelman you and say Super Buu really is considerably above Goku, there is no proof Goku, even as a ssj3, was equal to Kid Buu. Kid Buu could have been holding back on him like he did on Vegeta, Fat Buu, and Mr. Satan. Goku even confirmed Buu was playing with him during the fight. I can see why someone thinking Super Buu>Kid Buu, but to think the opposite is for crayon eaters just makes me think less of your intelligence.