Complete BT3 Info and Discussion Thread [UPDATED 10/02/07]

gohanku · Post by **gohanku** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:57 am

Gyt Kaliba wrote:...OK, if Kid Krillin is too much like normal Krillin, then why do we need two seperate Piccolos?

Seriously, there's only two characters missing from BT3 that really annoyed me. I wanted Goten GT, but even he doesn't bother me as much as these two - Kid Krillin and Chi Chi. ADULT Chi Chi.

Don't ask me why there is two separate Piccolos, I would prefer one Piccolo and one Goku. I would love the other Piccolo to be Kami, with Shen as an alternate costume.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:12 am

The Daizenshuu attack index that Herms posted convinces me that Kid Krillin would be different enough to warrant inclusion.
In fact, said index makes it pretty apparent how uncreative Spike's character creation team was. Well, ok, so there _was_ some cool stuff... (Still haven't unlocked everyone... Though I guess I'll have to be the Kaio of this one...).

... You know, if hacking the game is relatively easy, wouldn't it be pretty easy to screw with the proportions on Goku, Trunks and Gogeta and put in a (rather uncreative) adult Gotenks? Hmm...

DNA · Post by **DNA** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:25 am

Why would anyone want an adult Gotenks will always be a mistery to me <_<

There are 2 Picollos because they obviously vary in attack paterns, style and even personality. There should be at least 3, Piccolo from Dragon Ball had diferent attacks, personality, combos, and a transformation.

I don't understand you people that say "only one character is enough", but I respect your opinions/tastes. It basicly comes to this: more character phases = more diferent fighting styles/attacks. The only way you could have one character it would be if you could choose the fighting style according to the phase he used it, wich would be basicly the same. Otherwise you would have Super Saiyan 3 transforming Goku on Saiyan Saga, you know, pretty much like Budokai.

And another thing, why do you whine about having too many Vegetas and Gokus and Piccolos. Having many Gohans is exactly the same. The only diference is that Gohan actually looks diferent, and the others pretty much remain the same physicaly...

Gyt Kaliba · Post by **Gyt Kaliba** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:13 pm

It's not that I mind having seperate versions of the characters by saga - by all means, by that definition there should be two Kid Gohan's, one for Saiyan Saga and one for the Frieza arc - but they should worry about that after adding in some other new guys that we need.

I just can't understand how, when they were focusing on upping the DB portion of the game, that Kid Krillin flew off the radar. He's the only thing missing to a decent DB story mode in it - well, outside of an actual Saga that does it right. Cuz, for some reason, the game has the General Blue fight after King Piccolo.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:40 pm

Rocketman wrote:So, I got the game for Christmas and I've been playing it...

Has anyone figured out what the designers were snorting when they decided to waste a character slot on a FUCKING PACIFIST?!

Are you complaining about Nam, Android 8, Android 16, or Gohan?

My main question is why the hell we needed King Vegeta and King Cold, and yet Kid Krillin gets bypassed. WHAT THE HELL MAN!

King Cold and King Vegeta = New characters. Kid Krillin = Repeat charater. The only difference between him and adult Krillin would be lack of flight and no Destructo Disc. I fangasmed over both King Cold and King Vegeta.

...OK, if Kid Krillin is too much like normal Krillin, then why do we need two seperate Piccolos?

We don't. Spike is stupid.

Why would anyone want an adult Gotenks will always be a mistery to me <_<

Because adult Gotenks would be an awesome what-if.

There are 2 Picollos because they obviously vary in attack paterns, style and even personality. There should be at least 3, Piccolo from Dragon Ball had diferent attacks, personality, combos, and a transformation.

No. Just no. I could see two Piccolo only under one condition. The first is DB Piccolo with his giant form powers and no SBC. The other would be Z era Piccolo with a Kami fusion move to get his later Z era abilities. But that's it. Three Piccolos, or the two we have now, is pure idiocy.

It basicly comes to this: more character phases = more diferent fighting styles/attacks.

"Fighting styles"? In a Sparking! game? Everyone fights the same. The only changes are available transformations and blast moves. And if Spike wasn't stupid they could work this in without giving us the same person 50 times. Dimps managed to do it.

Otherwise you would have Super Saiyan 3 transforming Goku on Saiyan Saga, you know, pretty much like Budokai.

Exactly. Budokai did it right. Oh, so you don't want Goku going SSJ3 in the Saiya-jin saga? Well, that's simple. DON'T PUSH THE TRANSFORMATION BUTTON. Really, how hard it is to not push a button? And better yet, with the Budokai games, you could change what a character could do. Want a Goku that can only go SSJ1? Don't set SSJ2 or SSJ3. Want a Saiya-jin Saga Piccolo? Don't set Hellzone Grenade, Sync with Nail, or Fuse with Kami.

The Budokai series' answer to the changing abilities = Perfect.
The Sparking! series' answer to the changing abilities = Pathetic.

And another thing, why do you whine about having too many Vegetas and Gokus and Piccolos. Having many Gohans is exactly the same. The only diference is that Gohan actually looks diferent, and the others pretty much remain the same physicaly...

Uh... no. Not by a long shot. Are you telling me that Kid Gohan could be used in the Cell Games and you wouldn't go "WTF!"? There's a size, age and ability difference for them. Goku is Goku all through Z, so is Piccolo. If you want 5 Gokus or Piccolos why not 5 Yamchas and Tiens too?

DNA · Post by **DNA** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:01 pm

I was expecting that kind of half assed answer, really I was =)

Actually, I wanted 2 Tenshinhans and 2 Yamchas.

Only one more thing, please explain me how Adult Gotenks would be awesome, and why.

The 2 Piccolos in the game are completly diferent, if you can't tell the diference then you haven't been playing with them much, probably because you are too busy bitching about why are they there in the first place instead of enjoying the game.

If Budokai did it right, why did all the carathers had only 3 diferent attacks? It felt pretty pathetic and incomplete to me...

At least with 5 diferent Gokus you can have 4 diferent Genkidamas. Same attack, looking diferent. And furthermore, each transformation counts as a diferent character because it has some diferent quotes, disposition, sometimes changes fighting style, diferent attacks, so basicly it is a new character. Not like Budokai where you have one character with 4 transformations that fight, say, and use all the same attacks no matter what.

You don't want to have and Teen Gohan in Saiyan Saga? Well, I don't want to have a Super Saiyan 3 transforming Goku in the Saiyan Saga, it's pretty much the same.

More characters = more variaty.
There is no such thing as wasted char slots. There's one thing called lazyness. Doing 3D models is much much easier than doing 2D models. I look at SNK games and I laugh at the lazyness of DBZ games.

Want an example of lazy? You got Desert Bandit Yamcha's costume, you got a Panzerfaust attack on Blue, you got lots of sword users and you already got the Wolf Fang Fist coded. Why don't we have a Desert Bandit Yamcha? Laaaaaaazyneeeeeeess.

Also, if you can't tell the diferences in fighting style between characters, here's my sugestion: give up on fighting games. Everything else I could say would only fall on deaf ears.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:58 pm

Xyex wrote:Are you complaining about Nam, Android 8, Android 16, or Gohan?

Joke answer: Yes. =P

Serious answer: #8. Good lord, his ONLY attack in the whole fucking series was one punch. Why the fuck is he in a fighting game. Nam was in the World Tournament, #16 had that neat fight with Cell, and Gohan, despite my personal hatred, was a major character. #8, none of the above and then some.

And, maybe I missed something, but where was it said Nam was a pacifist?

Because adult Gotenks would be an awesome what-if.

It'd be better than the shitty what-ifs we actually got, at least.

The Budokai series' answer to the changing abilities = Perfect.
The Sparking! series' answer to the changing abilities = Pathetic.

No, Budokai's answer was crap. Prime example: Goku couldn't know Super Saiyan 3 and use the Fusion Dance at the same time. Explain that.

If you want 5 Gokus or Piccolos why not 5 Yamchas and Tiens too?

Because Goku and Piccolo don't suck?

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:50 am

I would like to point out that Yamcha and Tenshinhan really didn't change much in DBZ. So there is no need for 3 Yamchas and Tenshinhans.

Gyt Kaliba · Post by **Gyt Kaliba** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:16 am

I don't want them to add them until they'f focused on giving us a bunch of completely new guys, but 2 Yamchas and Tiens wouldn't be so bad.

Yamcha (Desert Bandit) - Dragon Ball
Yamcha - Dragon Ball (late)/DBZ/GT
Tien (Early) - Dragon Ball
Tien (Late) - Dragon Ball Z

El Diabeetus · Post by **El Diabeetus** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:39 am

If there going to add more characters they should be, GT like Rild (Rildo) and The other 5 Evil Dragons cause some people wonder where some of Yi Xing Longs (Omega's) Powers come from.

They also could have made GT Trunks an alternate Costume for Future Trunks.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:48 am

Raki wrote:I would like to point out that Yamcha and Tenshinhan really didn't change much in DBZ. So there is no need for 3 Yamchas and Tenshinhans.

Whoa, whoa. There NEEDS to be two Tenshinhans. DB Tenshinhan is completely different from his later, less fighting self in DBZ. It takes like no time at all to come up with early Tenshinhan.

1. Solar Flare
2. (That technique that reflects ki attacks back at the user)
3. Four-arm rush attack
4. Dodonpa/Kikoho/Kamehameha
5. Nothing can escape twelve eyes! (Multi-form secret weapon he used at the 23rd tournament)

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:53 am

Drunken Master wrote:
Raki wrote:I would like to point out that Yamcha and Tenshinhan really didn't change much in DBZ. So there is no need for 3 Yamchas and Tenshinhans.
Whoa, whoa. There's NEEDS to be two Tenshinhans. DB Tenshinhan is completely different from his later, less fighting self in DBZ. It takes like no time at all to come up with early Tenshinhan.

1. Solar Flare
2. (That technique that reflects ki attacks back at the user)
3. Four-arm rush attack
4. Dodonpa/Kikoho/Kamehameha
5. Nothing can escape twelve eyes! (Multi-form secret weapon he used at the 23rd tournament)

Why does nobody remember the awesome Volleyball Fist? I would love that move back in a game.

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:13 pm

Drunken Master wrote:
Raki wrote:I would like to point out that Yamcha and Tenshinhan really didn't change much in DBZ. So there is no need for 3 Yamchas and Tenshinhans.
Whoa, whoa. There's NEEDS to be two Tenshinhans. DB Tenshinhan is completely different from his later, less fighting self in DBZ. It takes like no time at all to come up with early Tenshinhan.

1. Solar Flare
2. (That technique that reflects ki attacks back at the user)
3. Four-arm rush attack
4. Dodonpa/Kikoho/Kamehameha
5. Nothing can escape twelve eyes! (Multi-form secret weapon he used at the 23rd tournament)

I was talking about them in Z,but having their DB forms wouldn't be a bad idea.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:12 pm

I was expecting that kind of half assed answer, really I was =)

There was nothing half-assed about my post.

Actually, I wanted 2 Tenshinhans and 2 Yamchas.

Why?

Only one more thing, please explain me how Adult Gotenks would be awesome, and why.

Oh, come on! It's GOTENKS. It's Goten, and Trunks, from end of Z or GT, fused. What's not awesome about that?

The 2 Piccolos in the game are completly diferent, if you can't tell the diference then you haven't been playing with them much, probably because you are too busy bitching about why are they there in the first place instead of enjoying the game.

Right, because a handful of special attack changes and basic combo modifications make you totally different and require a seperate character.

Budokai 3 managed to do all of that with transformations.

If Budokai did it right, why did all the carathers had only 3 diferent attacks? It felt pretty pathetic and incomplete to me...

*looks at the Sparking! games* Well, what do you know, all the characters only have 3 attacks. And, what's more, there's only 1 attack button, where as Budokai manged 2.

At least with 5 diferent Gokus you can have 4 diferent Genkidamas. Same attack, looking diferent. And furthermore, each transformation counts as a diferent character because it has some diferent quotes, disposition, sometimes changes fighting style, diferent attacks, so basicly it is a new character. Not like Budokai where you have one character with 4 transformations that fight, say, and use all the same attacks no matter what.

*Looks at Budokai 3* Huh. Budokai managed to pull off 2 Spirit Bombs and the Super Dragon Fist with the same character. Dimps didn't need to make 5 versions of the same person just to change moves. Also, you must not have played B3 much because attacks and quotes will change in it as well with some forms. Last I saw, SSJ3 Goku didn't use the Super Spirit Bomb, SSJ1 Gohan didn't have the Father-Son Kamehameha, etc.

You don't want to have and Teen Gohan in Saiyan Saga? Well, I don't want to have a Super Saiyan 3 transforming Goku in the Saiyan Saga, it's pretty much the same.

And as I've said, in the Budokai games you don't. It's simple, really, don't set the transformation and then you wont have Goku going SSJ3 in the Saiya-jin Saga. It's a vast difference between abilities and appeareance. You can modify abilities easy as hell. Appearance is pretty much set. Totally different things.

More characters = more variaty.

Not in a Sparking! game. Visual variety, sure. But that's a non factor with identicle looking characters (like the 3 Z Gokus).

There is no such thing as wasted char slots. There's one thing called lazyness. Doing 3D models is much much easier than doing 2D models. I look at SNK games and I laugh at the lazyness of DBZ games.

That's simple bias talking. 3D models take a lot more detailing work than 2D sprites do. Especially in this day and age, even with cel shading. Plus you have to work on lighting effects over their surface as well, something that doesn't even apply to 2D. If anything 3D is the more complicated and difficult way to go. But also the more rewarding alowing for a large play experience in the end. 2D's pretty, it's got the nostalgia bonus, but it's more limited.

Want an example of lazy? You got Desert Bandit Yamcha's costume, you got a Panzerfaust attack on Blue, you got lots of sword users and you already got the Wolf Fang Fist coded. Why don't we have a Desert Bandit Yamcha? Laaaaaaazyneeeeeeess.

So it's lazyness that they created the Desert Bandit skin for Yamcha when they didn't have to? You're looking at it as though they made the skin and then went "We'll just give this to Yamcha instead of making a new character". Who says they didn't intend a Desert Bandit Yamcha character and then had to cut him due to time constraints and so implemented the skin as an alt for Yamcha so that it would still be in the game in some fashion?

Also, if you can't tell the diferences in fighting style between characters, here's my sugestion: give up on fighting games. Everything else I could say would only fall on deaf ears.

I can tell differences in fighting styles when there are difference. Like the difference between using Talim and Seung Mina in Soul Caliber 2. Or the difference between Li Mei and Scorpion in MK:Deception. However, aside from minor speed changes and different specials there isn't any real difference in the play styles and fighting styles of the characters in a Sparking! game.

Why the fuck is he in a fighting game.

Fan demand.

And, maybe I missed something, but where was it said Nam was a pacifist?

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned at some point during the 21st Budokai that he was.

No, Budokai's answer was crap. Prime example: Goku couldn't know Super Saiyan 3 and use the Fusion Dance at the same time. Explain that.

I said that the answer was perfect, not the execution. I'll be the first to admit that the capsule system needs work to be perfect. But it's already a thousand times better than the multi-character system in the Sparking! games.

My answer to the fusions is simple. Fusion capsules should be the same as a breakthrough, only with the ultimate replaced by the fusion skill. And then, when you set a fusion capsule, it would pull out the fusion sub-tray onto which you would then set the fusions moves and skills.

Or, if you want full custimzation. Remove the capsule limitations for moves/abilities and make them all just one slot in size. Then you could set Kamehameha, Dragon Fist, Spirit Bomb 1, Spirit Bomb 2, Super Spirit Bomb, Super Dragon Fist, SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJ4, Dance Fusion, and Potara Fusion at the same time. Or any combonation there-of you wanted.

And then the stat moding capsules and stuff would still have their limited 7-slot tray.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:17 pm

Xyex wrote:Oh, come on! It's GOTENKS. It's Goten, and Trunks, from end of Z or GT, fused. What's not awesome about that?

1. Goten
2. Trunks
3. GT
4. Gotenks
5. End of Z

Fan demand.

Fucking fans.

Then you could set Kamehameha, Dragon Fist, Spirit Bomb 1, Spirit Bomb 2, Super Spirit Bomb, Super Dragon Fist, SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJ4, Dance Fusion, and Potara Fusion at the same time.

*Looks at Tenkaichi's Goku (End).* Huh.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:32 pm

Rocketman wrote:*Looks at Tenkaichi's Goku (End).* Huh.

*Tries to use Goku (end) in the Saiya-jin Saga and complains that he can transform into a Super Saiya-jin*

My point is you can do the multiple sets of movies, varried available forms, and so on type things without making them all seperate characters.

DNA · Post by **DNA** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:01 pm

Actually, I wanted 2 Tenshinhans and 2 Yamchas.
Why?

Look at the posts up, your answer is there.

Oh, come on! It's GOTENKS. It's Goten, and Trunks, from end of Z or GT, fused. What's not awesome about that?

Look at the post below yours, the anwser is there.

*looks at the Sparking! games* Well, what do you know, all the characters only have 3 attacks. And, what's more, there's only 1 attack button, where as Budokai manged 2. :P

Each and every diferent form and phase has some diferent attacks, not all, but some, or they are executed in a diferent manner. In Budokai all the forms have the same attacks, only Goku has diference in the Genkidama and Kamehameha, and Vegeta with Final Flash.

That's simple bias talking. 3D models take a lot more detailing work than 2D sprites do. Especially in this day and age, even with cel shading. Plus you have to work on lighting effects over their surface as well, something that doesn't even apply to 2D. If anything 3D is the more complicated and difficult way to go. But also the more rewarding alowing for a large play experience in the end. 2D's pretty, it's got the nostalgia bonus, but it's more limited.

You obviously haven't the slightest idea of what you are talking about.

You do have a point in Yamcha, maybe they didn't include him due to time constrains, the same for Eis Shenron I guess...
You also have a point on the fighting styles in the other games like Soul Calibur and stuff, but really, there ARE diferences, thing is, they couldn't do anything else, you see, it's Dragon Ball we are talking about, when the diference is so minimal in the series, what else can a person do?

To the rest of it, I'll say this: don't like it, don't play it. No need to diss the game and the persons who prefer this game just because you love Budokai 3 so much. Go play it and sell BT3 then.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:04 pm

NeptuneKai wrote:Why does nobody remember the awesome Volleyball Fist? I would love that move back in a game.

Well, he actually does, kinda...It's his trip, hit up and slam down technique. Forgot what they call it, but he does it there basically. I'd rather see him grow two more arms and beat some monkey ass though, hehe.

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 7:42 pm

Drunken Master wrote:
NeptuneKai wrote:Why does nobody remember the awesome Volleyball Fist? I would love that move back in a game.
Well, he actually does, kinda...It's his trip, hit up and slam down technique. Forgot what they call it, but he does it there basically. I'd rather see him grow two more arms and beat some monkey ass though, hehe.

I didn't know that, thanks for the info I'll go check it out!

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:23 am

DNA wrote:You also have a point on the fighting styles in the other games like Soul Calibur and stuff, but really, there ARE diferences, thing is, they couldn't do anything else, you see, it's Dragon Ball we are talking about, when the diference is so minimal in the series, what else can a person do?

... They could take some hints from the 2d games and try to adapt them for a Sparking-style fighting engine? It might be difficult, but far from impossible, and with some creativity could even be an improvement.

BT isn't devoid of stylistic differences--though they're a lot smaller than more traditional fighters, they exist. For example, small characters are difficult to hit at close range, and in theory can dodge more easily since there is a smaller area to protect. Then you have the combination of attack types--though really, I just ignore that, other than cases where we have people that have only rush attacks or some such thing.

Considering the scope of BT3 (early DB through the end of GT? ...?), you'd think instead of doing fancy "bwahahaha counter and special effects!" and "Look, our cenematic attacks are more similar to the series animation!" upgrades... (well, not instead of--those are still desirable), the physical attack engine might be a bit more varied--and I'm not entirely convinced we're talking just melee (would something like say Shoryuken be considered melee?).

Let's take the dreaded UB22 for reference, where everyone (mostly) has two super blasts and a thumb-bleeding sparking-esque cenematic ultimate of sorts.
Now, Freeza: He has his deathball, he can make you explode from inside about three different ways, and doesn't burn up his ki very quickly... so what makes him dangerous?
Well, his flying headbutts of death are pretty annoying if you aren't prepared, and he's got lots of other crazy counter-style techniques up his sleeve. Look at the original Super Butoden--Freeza's main advantage is that he can dodge, attack at a greater distance with stunning physical attacks, Etc... his supers aren't anywhere near the deciding factor in a fight with this guy.

How do we do that in BT? Well, either by beefing up his supers, or by incorporating his physical techniques into rushes--I don't think that quite captures it.
Sollution? Just give him a couple stylistic techniques (And coming up with ways to trigger these isn't difficult). Individualize certain types of counters--or at least make different groups that actually play differently.
Heck, use the roundhouse and uppercut things from sagas...
Oh, right... I was going to work on a character individualization thingy and... umm... haven't been for a few days. *looks for it*.

Kanzenshuu

Complete BT3 Info and Discussion Thread [UPDATED 10/02/07]

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