Dragonball saga cohesion

[Terra-jin]

I've created this thread to contribute to DB Daisuki's ideas for more cohesion in the Dragonball story. If there is another thread about this already, please excuse me.

I agree with the fact that DBZ's sagas lack cohesion, however I do like the case of the Freeza - Androids transition. It seems credible to me that this saga appears to come without real events leading to it (technically, it did come from nothing because Dr. Gero and his hatred towards Goku are something you cannot trace back to the Red Ribbon saga).

Now, the Buu saga does seem really sudden. A superpowerful magical creature is hidden on Earth and is released conveniently after the Cell saga. Here's my attempt at glueing it together:

Majin Buu was created by Bibidi through enchanting a young demon from the Demon Universe. He attained his huge powerlevel through absorbing the energy of all he destroyed (much like Babidi's spaceship does) and eventually destroys the Kaioshin and a great portion of the galaxy.
The gap left behind by the death of the Kaioshin paves the way for chaos to enfold. Where the Kaioshin occupied themselves with preserving the balance of power in the Universe, their absence allowed beings like Freeza and Cold to rise and bring chaos to the remains of the Universe.

This makes Freeza's empire (and thereby the Freeza saga) a direct result of Majin Buu's destruction. The decimated Universe and the absence of its leaders are a testament to Buu's rampage. This way, short hints can be inserted into the Freeza saga, which reveal the looming presence of a greater evil at the root of all the chaos in the form of Freeza's evil empire.

Comments?

[caejones]

... Freaking sweet.
This bringsus back to the question of how much of the universe Buu destroyed, but it does something for that question of why Kaioshin didn't interfere with the Cold empire...
But that was quite a distance in the past, so there'd need to be like, little historical references to what life was like in the universe for quite some time.

[Godo]

Goku: "But why didn't you stop Freeza? If you now know everything."

Kaioshin: "Because we were busy to try to make balance in universe. After all, Buu was originally a young demon, much like your so called Piccolo..."

Goku: "You knew about Piccolo?"

Kaioshin: "Yes, but he wasn't that strong. But to think you would have grown that powerful with time...you could've been some help to us."

Goku: "But what about this Buu?"

Kaioshin: "Oh, yeah. As told he was a young demon, but Bibidi used his magical powers to make Buu grow stronger. Buu was able to absorb his victims, leaving him very strong. After a while he got out of control. He absorbed the Kaioshin, and then Bibidi sealed him inside a ball.
...
Freeza and his empire was too little of a threat for us. After all, he wasn't that strong compared to us. Something of a much bigger importance though, was that the universe was out of balance after Buu destroying so much and absorbing so many lifeforms. We were busy to fix everything. And at the time we were done we had to find the ball of Buu, because we had heard that Babidi, son of Bibidi, had gone searching for the ball."

Goku: "Oh, I see. But if he was like Piccolo, he can be reversed , right?"

Kaioshin: "No, impossible. The evil in your Piccolo was nothing compared to the evil Buu had."

Goku: "Bummer. I cannot wait to fight him!!"

Piccolo: "Idiot!! We are here to prevent his release, not to fight him!!"

Kaioshin: "Piccolo is true, not even you can defeat him."

Vegeta: "I'm with Goku, I would like to fight this Demon Buu!"

Goten and Trunks (Just entering the room): "FIGHT A DEMON?! AWESOME!! WE ARE IN!!"

Piccolo: *SIGH*

[Coola Yagami]

I agree with most of that except Goku wouldn't say 'bummer'.

[Godo]

I agree with most of that except Goku wouldn't say 'bummer'.

Oh, yes. In the english dub he frequently uses "bummer".

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

I agree with most of that except Goku wouldn't say 'bummer'.

...And I'm pretty sure Vegeta would never address Son Goku by his human name, either.

I like this concept a lot, Terra-jin. I'm totally open to integrating the Boo arc, but so much of it is hard to connect with anything else. Your fresh perspective however, may be just the springboard I need to get started. Of course the easiest way to make any sequence of events more cohesive is, in fact, by causing said events to overlap. So, off the top of my head, we might want to establish that Babidi and his men were already searching for pure energy to steal around the time of the Artificial Humans/Cell arc. They may even have had moderate success at the Cell Games. So afterwards, they-show up at the Tenka-ichi Budoukai, expecting to see Son Gohan there, and... the transition becomes smoother.

That being said, I have some questions concerning YOUR ideas. :]

Majin Buu was created by Bibidi through enchanting a young demon from the Demon Universe. He attained his huge powerlevel through absorbing the energy of all he destroyed (much like Babidi's spaceship does) and eventually destroys the Kaioshin and a great portion of the galaxy.

1. First, I assume the Demon Universe is the equivalent to the world that Dabura/Dabra hails from. If it isn't then it SHOULD be, for sake of convenience (we know Babidi recruited Dabura this way, so it's a nice nod to his father if Bibidi used a similar method in making Majin Boo). What needs to be clarified, though, is just what is implied by "enchanting" said demon? Is it purely posession, as in the case of Dabura? Or is it something more? Some complex alchemy perhaps, a sort of magical implement of genetic experimentation?

I'd have to think for a good long while of what it would be that could transform our titular villain from an unremarkable young demon from a universe of identical candidates to THE most evil bastard in the universe. To be frank, the whole "absorbing power to gain power" plot-device seems lazy at best. It works with the whole "absorbing-of-a-character's body-results-in-the-integration-of-their-physical-and-emotional-characteristics" bit, definitely, but pure, simple energy absorbtion? It's been done and done.

Like I said, something incredibly unique has to happen to our demon, something that could never be replicated, something completely unprecedented, so that it's clear that ONLY Bibidi's chosen demon could have become THE magic freakshow that is Majin Boo. If possible, it might be nice to have it tie in with his tendency to release steam/re-form in clouds of pink gas...? :]

2. Secondly, I am especially infatuated with this epic concept -- that the vanquishing of the Kaioushins creates this sort of vaccum that causes Chaos to unfold throughout the universe. As noted, it is an admirable setup for Freeza's unchecked monopoly on... well, just about everything.

What needs to be established though, is just what is involved in "restoring order" to the universe. Is it merely toppling Freeza-like giants in other quadrants of the universe, or is it a more delicate, technical process? I would imagine the Kaioushins had some kind of database built up from their knowledge of the physical universe. Supposing Majin Boo's destruction encompasses these archives, it's not too hard to imagine that our beloved surviving Kaioushin had to begin by re-mapping the universe. This would easily prove a lengthy errand. Anybody else have anything to add in this vein? Either how Kaioushin goes about "re-building Order" in some alien, technical way, OR what things could potentially take Kaioushin's time away from him noticing things like Freeza and Cell?

We can brainstorm some more if you want. I also think it would be healthy to explore the histories between the Kaioushins and Bibidi, between the Rou Dai Kaioushin and the old witch that he fused with, and the enemies who he claimed feared him.

:]

[Terra-jin]

Sure, I love to contemplate on the world of Dragonball. There's just so many concepts with incredible potential that feel unpolished somehow.

1. By enchanting in this context I meant that Bibidi created a magical being from a template in much the same way that Dr. Gero created AH #17 and 18 from human templates. We can go further by establishing the exact 'origin' of Buu's many powers: full body control (regeneration - transition from gaseous to liquid to solid forms), absorption, the Henka Beam and his exorbitant energy level.

The full body control
A possible explanation for this: the souls of normal beings are attached to their bodies via certain centers (chakras, if you will). Bibidi's magic worked to attach Buu's spirit to every single molecule in his body - must have been an incredibly painstaking process, both for Bibidi and Buu!

Absorption
This can be seen as a sort of manipulated form of fusion, in which Buu retained control. I don't have any further ideas for this yet.

Henka Beam
This is essentially magic in its purest form: changing anything into anything. What's remarkable though, is that the victim retains his life, as seen with Fat Buu and Vegetto. One would think that without a functioning body, the victim would die.

Majin Buu's extreme power
By direct absorption I mean the transformation of matter into energy - apply E=mc2 to an entire planet and you can see where Buu gets his power from. A rather basic idea, I'll admit, but I don't have any other explanations for this one.

2. Maintaining the balance of power would mean that the Kaioshin prevented huge differences in power that could lead to catastrofes like Freeza and Cold. If captain Ginyu (the second strongest) had an energy level of 120.000, Freeza's 150.000.000 is completely imbalanced.
The Kaioshin probably maintained the balance by monitoring the Universe, foreseeing at an early stage the rise of extreme powers and subtly influencing the situation to keep it under control.
Also, the Universe in its former entirety would have produced several beings of Freeza's power - and so long as they're not by themselves, these great powers might be less prone to developing into evil tyrants. This meant that they experienced the effects of 'healthy competition' which made them grow in character.

I don't think the Kaioshin kept actual archives of the Universe, I just think that they each had their specific region to look after. East Kaioshin managed (like his name implies ) the Eastern quadrant. However, it was destroyed and all that's left is a fragment of the Northern quadrant and since East Kaioshin was not familiar with this quadrant he lost control. He may have also been busy with locating Babidi. Plus he's a wuss.

3. About the history of the Kaioshin: they were probably a race that progressed so far in terms of civilization and individual power, that they were deemed sophisticated enough to succeed the previous race of Kaioshin - much like a Kami selects a successor amongst promising new blood. About Freeza: he was probably from a race that was on its way to becoming the next Kaioshin, but he and Cold were mutations that caused them to be evil and more powerful than their kind. In search of total domination, they wiped out their own race and started their planet pirate empire.

These last concepts are pretty brief; I've worked them out in several documents in greater detail.

[caejones]

Oooh... I think I remember at on point thinking about something related to ki and explosions and how people gained energy and ... basically ki-field laws that only make sense in DBZ (if I can remember I'll sooo integrate it into my unlikely-to-be-completed energy manipulation project... and I think maybe last night I was thinking about the references I'd use if I started on it this week, and realized that'd be mostly from memory. To the bookshelf!)...
Wait, I got sidetracked in that sentence. Umm, ok. So the fact that an elite few in the universe have so much power, while the vast majority gets wiped out... it's not odd necessarily that only so many people could ascend to levels of control and power that Freeza have, but where'd all that energy come from? Strikes me as some odd... something related to the second law of thermodynamics... or something.
(Ah, I think I might have been going for a conservation of energyidea for why everyone seemed to keep up sorta after Freeza, but before that everyone had powers well under a million, most under a few thousand... like... really powerful people were destroyed on Earth, so that energy had to go somewhere... so the people that are best at controling and chaneling energy were likely able to harness it, though not directly (not really absorption in the traditional sense, more like it becomes part of the environment, and it winds up atracted toward those that know how to use it)).

*ahem*. And I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with anything, unless part of reconstructing order has to do with the balance of power in the universe (which is a bit difficult to rectify without somehow working in the structure of the universe... *head explodes*).



Lezee. What was so special about Buu... umm... Hmm... (Though this is important: Babidi didn't try to create another Buu, he tried to releas the original, so clearly it's way harder to make one at the very least; making Buu a once-in-eternity event seems highly apropriate and makes his status as the final villain of Z all the more dramatic).

I'm still not coming up with much else... *goes off to ponder*

[Terra-jin]

Well, it is stated in the manga (I think) that Majin Buu's creation was "by chance". It's up to us to discover what kind of incredible, terrifying, ominous accident it was...

[caejones]

Heh heh...


Bibidi: *plays with chemestry set*
DemonLord of bad documentaries: Oooh, what does this button do? *falls in goo*
Bibidi: DLoBD, you idiot! That's the universe's only suppy of rare gooy chemicals! *Buu comes up out of the ick* Oooh... hey, can you go kill the Kaioshin for me?
Buu: Graraaaar! WOOHOOHOOHOOHOOOOOOO!!! *Blows stuff up*

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Let's cut the chitter-chatter and get down to brass tacks:

1. The idea of "magic modification" is precisely what I had in mind for Majin Boo's birth. It would surely have been a gruesome procedure. Perhaps Bibidi selected his candidate because he showed a tremendous threshold for pain/auto-repair abilities?

Full-Body Control

This is a novel concept. I've been reading a lot about chakra lately, it's definitely something I'd like to get into when I get a little extra money on the side. It's perfect. I remember reading somewhere that, apart from the six main chakras, there are minature chakras on your hands, feet, and shoulders. So creating chakras on every molecule isn't out of the realm of possiblity, if not extremely ambitous. Attaching Boo's soul to every chakra in his body would accordingly mean that so long as a molecule remains, he exists. This differs slightly from Cell's genetic make-up, in which case a brain cell is required to repair damage. But with Boo, he is never damaged until he is completely damaged; he would exist with every bit as much potency as one molecule that he would with all. Is that correct?

Absorbtion

The main problem with this for me is the simple conundrum of "If Boo always had this ability, why wouldn't he always use it?" It's just too useful. In almost every case of his absorbing of a character in the show, their characteristics corrupt him to some degree. That's the risk involved with the reward. Too, there's the issue that Majin Boo in his pure, evil form (the youthful one) wasn't supposed to have any control... over anything. Am I right?

Henka Beam

This one's fine. Hmm. It's folly to make logic out of magic, but the effects of Henka Beam almost seem to parellel the techniques used in Boo's own chemistry -- the ability to exist in limited amounts of molecules. Perhaps Bibidi used a similar technique with Boo? I'd like to see us extrapolate a little more on the origin of magic-wielding people. Demystify them. Perhaps it operates on a sort of cosmic level? Perhaps when the Big Bang occurred, those nearest its center absorbed a sort of "cosmic energy" that's somehow related to magic? Bibidi uses Boo to destroy the competition. By this logic, perhaps the earth (and most other planets) was pretty far-removed from the center of the universe, and thus is less prone to yielding magic-weilding entities.

Majin Boo's Extreme Power

This one's a problem for me; you'd have to sell me on it. As noted above... if Majin Boo always had this ability, why didn't he use it in the show? He blew up the earth and several other planets, but no one ever reported any sort of exponential increase in his power. Plus, there's the similar paradox of determining how Boo managed to blow up his first planet to begin with. It's an interesting conundrum. Boo would need extreme power to... gain extreme power. 0_0


2.

Again, I'm thirsting for something a little more... fresh. To me at least, it's sort of a cop-out to go, "Oh yeah, by the way, Freeza wasn't the strongest. They're other guys just like him" after Freeza is defeated... it just seems lazy. I was always under the impression that Freeza was THE strongest organic being in the universe (North Kaiou-sama sure mad it seem that way, at least), so that more powerful enemies had to be made through technology (Arificial Humans/Cell) ... there would be no naturally-occuring enemies stronger than he. So I thought it was a nice progression:

Men-->Organic Beings-->Technology-->Divine/Demonic

You could try explaining it to me in a different way, though.

When I say, archives, I'm not thinking computers. I'm actually thinking of something far more ambiguous. Like how when N. Kaiou-sama locates Namek, he's referring to a little book. Now, obviously the exact location of every heavenly body in the Kaiou's jurisdiction couldn't POSSIBLY fit in that tiny book. But maybe the book is something far more advanced than anything we could possibly understand, in our limited consciousness. We just sort of project the physical identity of a book onto it.

But there would need to be some sort of point of reference. No race can hold that much information in a single mind, which leads me into...

3.

...The "Successive Kaioushin Concept". It does have some attractive qualities, but ultimately, this too could seem like a cop-out. There's just so much cohesiveness to the Kaious and the Kaioushins and everyone working in the Netherworld for me not to believe that they were always at the top of their rank. If you could give me a fresh perspective on this concept, though, I'd be willing to reconsider.

In that vein, I'd love to read your more detailed documents. PM me.

:]

[caejones]

Let's cut the chitter-chatter and get down to brass tacks:

1. The idea of "magic modification" is precisely what I had in mind for Majin Boo's birth. It would surely have been a gruesome procedure. Perhaps Bibidi selected his candidate because he showed a tremendous threshold for pain/auto-repair abilities?

Full-Body Control

This is a novel concept. I've been reading a lot about chakra lately, it's definitely something I'd like to get into when I get a little extra money on the side. It's perfect. I remember reading somewhere that, apart from the six main chakras, there are minature chakras on your hands, feet, and shoulders. So creating chakras on every molecule isn't out of the realm of possiblity, if not extremely ambitous. Attaching Boo's soul to every chakra in his body would accordingly mean that so long as a molecule remains, he exists. This differs slightly from Cell's genetic make-up, in which case a brain cell is required to repair damage. But with Boo, he is never damaged until he is completely damaged; he would exist with every bit as much potency as one molecule that he would with all. Is that correct?

From what I understand, the full-body-control concept is pretty much right on the mark (And it feels like the ability to manipulate ki is closely related to this). Perhaps Bibidi did all of this 'chackra surgery', and in the process the candidate wound up either turning into goo because of the abundance of chakras/the individual's lack of control/Bibidi made it happen to test the results. Maybe Buu is really 99%chakra, 0.5% something soul-like to 'live' in it, and 0.5% some sort of magic bubblegum to hold it all together (seriously... ).

Absorbtion

The main problem with this for me is the simple conundrum of "If Boo always had this ability, why wouldn't he always use it?" It's just too useful. In almost every case of his absorbing of a character in the show, their characteristics corrupt him to some degree. That's the risk involved with the reward. Too, there's the issue that Majin Boo in his pure, evil form (the youthful one) wasn't supposed to have any control... over anything. Am I right?

I think the idea was that Buu was supposed to have absolutely no real personality/mental control (though needed some kind of mind to use his abilities, similar to a robot needing a control center, I guess). Perhaps something about all of the crazy stuff involved in Buu prevents Bibidi from just putting an m on his forehead and taking complete control.
But yeah, seems completely out-of-control, so the absorptions influencing him so heavily makes sense?
Perhaps since he doesn't really do much thinking in his pure-original form, Buu only tried to absorb South Kaioshin at Bibidi's suggestion? Or maybe he has to sense something more useful about his opponent than just an energy source (Like, something about West or North Kaioshin wasn't as appealing as South Kaioshin... but then there's the question of absorbing DaiKaioshin, which could have been somehow related to South Kaioshin's influence... it's... very confusing...!).

Henka Beam

This one's fine. Hmm. It's folly to make logic out of magic, but the effects of Henka Beam almost seem to parellel the techniques used in Boo's own chemistry -- the ability to exist in limited amounts of molecules. Perhaps Bibidi used a similar technique with Boo? I'd like to see us extrapolate a little more on the origin of magic-wielding people. Demystify them. Perhaps it operates on a sort of cosmic level? Perhaps when the Big Bang occurred, those nearest its center absorbed a sort of "cosmic energy" that's somehow related to magic? Bibidi uses Boo to destroy the competition. By this logic, perhaps the earth (and most other planets) was pretty far-removed from the center of the universe, and thus is less prone to yielding magic-weilding entities.

Buu's power seems to fall into the "we're screwing around with the laws of reality" variety (though not as extremely as say Janemba). Maybe the nature of the demonics and Kaioshin lets them naturally use magic, and those that use it of different races (IE Bibidi) must somehow tap into that ability? (And your big bang idea seems like it could work... like, those at the center of the universe have an easier time accessing this power/it was concentrated in the center but was later limited to special races, and only the few that could tap into it based on that connection could use it... I confused myself...).
So Buu seems like a mix of all of that--demonic/Kaioshin powers with Bibidi's own touches to put them together, and the whole 'chemestry' of Buu probably does odd things to it as well, leaving him with crazy powers like those witnessed while limiting others.

Majin Boo's Extreme Power

This one's a problem for me; you'd have to sell me on it. As noted above... if Majin Boo always had this ability, why didn't he use it in the show? He blew up the earth and several other planets, but no one ever reported any sort of exponential increase in his power. Plus, there's the similar paradox of determining how Boo managed to blow up his first planet to begin with. It's an interesting conundrum. Boo would need extreme power to... gain extreme power. 0_0

Well, there are conservation laws and such (though how that fits when Buu turns people into candy is hard to figure). I'd imagine that though Buu's maximum control of his body and energy would make him almost a ki-magnet... so he could maybe channel energy that is released when those that hold it are destroyed, but he'd have to hang around to do so... seems pretty iffy, though... but Buu's extreme threat-ness would come more from his maximum amount of control--being able to manipulate his body in any way imaginable would make power itself pretty useless, since in some ways that'd give him a major advantage at handling anything that comes at him/out of him. In some ways you could say that having the level of control discussed would automatically make him insanely powerful (Especially if we go with the idea that control like that is a pivotal part of ki manipulation in the first place). So instead of needing an energy source, he can manipulate his energy--however much of it there is--to do just about anything. Maybe he has access to 100% of the energy in his body and surroundings, whereas more organic beings wouldn't (I.E, Vegeta crumbling after his suicide attack on Fat Buu). Buu's level of control would let him use every ounce of energy in his body and still pull himself together, and he can likely manipulate energies in his environment; it seems like he could probably contain excess amounts of energy with that kind of ability, but it'd change him in some ways at a certain extent (Like... he might become a sort of energy balloon at a certain point), which would have drawbacks, I suppose (controling all kinds of outside energy inside of his body could screw things up if it's too big?).
... So yeah, I'd say his 100% body control is directly related to his incredible power, and maybe he could absorb energy from his environment, but I'd imagine he wouldn't be storing huge amounts unless he had a good method for channeling it (I.E, why he absorbed people rather than merging with them temporarily and sucking out the energy to leave them as dust).

2.

Again, I'm thirsting for something a little more... fresh. To me at least, it's sort of a cop-out to go, "Oh yeah, by the way, Freeza wasn't the strongest. They're other guys just like him" after Freeza is defeated... it just seems lazy. I was always under the impression that Freeza was THE strongest organic being in the universe (North Kaiou-sama sure mad it seem that way, at least), so that more powerful enemies had to be made through technology (Arificial Humans/Cell) ... there would be no naturally-occuring enemies stronger than he. So I thought it was a nice progression:

Men-->Organic Beings-->Technology-->Divine/Demonic

You could try explaining it to me in a different way, though.

Sounds good to me.

When I say, archives, I'm not thinking computers. I'm actually thinking of something far more ambiguous. Like how when N. Kaiou-sama locates Namek, he's referring to a little book. Now, obviously the exact location of every heavenly body in the Kaiou's jurisdiction couldn't POSSIBLY fit in that tiny book. But maybe the book is something far more advanced than anything we could possibly understand, in our limited consciousness. We just sort of project the physical identity of a book onto it.

Well, yeah... I'll have to agree.

But there would need to be some sort of point of reference. No race can hold that much information in a single mind, which leads me into...

Well, hard to tell if we're talking about Kaioshin. Then again, there were several of them at one point.

3.

...The "Successive Kaioushin Concept". It does have some attractive qualities, but ultimately, this too could seem like a cop-out. There's just so much cohesiveness to the Kaious and the Kaioushins and everyone working in the Netherworld for me not to believe that they were always at the top of their rank. If you could give me a fresh perspective on this concept, though, I'd be willing to reconsider.

Egh, I'm not sure what to make of this. There are a lot of confusing things about the Kaioshin (I.E, why there were fifteen generations). And on that note... I have to wonder how that witch managed to so easily just walk up to the elder Kaioshin and take his earring.
The way the hierarchy works, it's not too difficult to imagine the normal need for a new Kaio being one at a time. Though the fact that Kaioshin didn't set to getting the Kaioshin back at full numbers says something about the degree of damage Buu inflicted. (I'm using words incorrectly now, I think...).
Well, do we think that maybe GT Goku became the sort of being that would be a candidate to replace, say, North Kaio if ever he moved up the ranks? (Yeah, let's end that idea right there.).
I'm not sure that the Kaioshin would pick a race to succeed them, but perhaps individuals who have developed godly character... which could really explain the point of the cleansing-reincarnation process in DB Hell, since even among those that train at Dai Kaio's planet, there would likely be few with Kaioshin-like qualities (though really, what we see of the Kaio and Kaioshin throughout the series makes one wonder...).
Figuring out more details on how the Kaioshin operate is... .. ... difficult. . It'll also make making sense of all of this much easier, yes?

[Terra-jin]

1. Bibidi probably selected Buu's template for his playful yet extremely destructive nature. A threshold against pain... I don't know, I don't think Bibidi cared about his suffering. But perhaps I've misunderstood this part. Auto repair abilities wouldn't be necessary for the template, because Bibidi's magic would cover that.

Full-body control
If the template didn't have the ability to control all those moleculair chakras, he'd fall apart and die, yes. Pretty cool idea so Bibidi at least needed a creature with great inherent control.

Absorption
I like the idea of Buu being a mindless drone in his pure form and that this would be 'corrupted' when he absorbed something. This would mean that Kid Buu isn't really evil - he's not aware of what he's doing. That doesn't make his acts less horrible, of course!
So when Buu absorbed somebody, he inherited some of his victims' consciousness. What are the implications of this?

Henka Beam
You might explain this magic by saying that it finds its origin in planes of existence that have much looser laws of nature. An example of this is no conservation of mass/energy, a more immediate manifestation of imagination (a much wilder form of Piccolo's materialization for example). That's really what magic in its general sense comes down to: inexpliccable things that seem like they belong in another realm altogether.

Majin Buu's extreme energy level
Hmm, I didn't mean that he absorbed ALL of his victims' energy, just a little bit. This subtle process is what slowly built Buu's powerlevel over the years. Remember, he's like millions of years old! A substantial part of this time he was out destroying with Bibidi before Kaioshin stopped them. It may have taken Buu a long time before he actually had enough power to destroy a planet. But since he's near immortal, he had plenty of time to build his power.
I agree with caejones in that his multi-chakra physical make-up is the reason for this 'gravitation of ki'. When Majin Buu is near, you might even slowly notice ki moving towards him - an eerie concept.

2. The progression indeed seems nice. Yeah, what I described wasn't really a reason for Freeza's power, just an indication that it wouldn't have been such a big deal had the Universe not been reduced to its sad existence today.
But it's also a good point that this void caused Freeza's huge power. In this case, the Universe in its former entirety would have somehow prevented the rise of such powers. It's a better view, in retrospect, because beings with Freeza's power just aren't normal. You can't have crowds of planet-blasting maniacs out there.

Your idea of the hyperadvanced/kinda mystical 'book of the Gods' sounds pretty solid, too. Kaioshin were just beings, too, so they would need a reference to the vast Universe (or part thereof) they controlled.

3. I still believe a race is the best way for the matter of the Kaioshin and Kaio. Sure they're a pretty organized bunch, but I think they developed this (perhaps with the assistence of their predecessors in an early stage).
True, to fulfill their functions, they don't necessarily have to be of the same race. I just thought it was a nice advancement from the Kami concept.

4. Which brings me to another point (a tad OT perhaps), but where are the other Kaioshin? And if they indeed were the only ones, where did they come from? Or Kibit? Do they live on a normal planet somewhere in the "lower zone"? It's one of the things that feels unfinished in Dragonball.

It would have been nice to see a Kaioshin race and culture. They would select their greatest to become Kaioshin, and assist in smaller errands (inducing the subtle influencing I mentioned earlier on local planet, going on specific missions from the Kaioshin).

You know, we should probably split this thread to prevent these looong replies!

[caejones]

Well, the biggest split I could see would be one thread to discuss the mechanics of the Kaioshin (since they're so ... mysterious), and then keep this one focused on Buu and his Buu-ness... but they'd still have to cross over since they're part of the same concept...

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

All right, guys (all two of you). With the psuedo-announcement of the oft-relented DBZ film, this thread just became a lot more interesting to me. >:]

Terra-jin, read your documents, interesting ideas. I'd really like to let them sit and digest for a while, before I give you feedback. I'd also like to get my hands on some Japanese-version Boo era stuff. Admittedly I sort of lost interest in the series around this time. I've seen all of the episodes, but in a very scatterd fashion.

Okay. So... snap. For now, let's not sweat the small stuff. Let's just agree that Boo is this big central threat who ushers in the beginning and the end of Chaos throughout the Universe. And that said Chaos gives rise to guys like Freeza and the Saiya-jins (either in direct or indirect manner) and a slew of other baddies. Let's put that on the backburner for now. What other issues must we address, in terms of cohesiveness?

Dr. Gero?
Piccolo Daimao?
Crane School?
The Super Saiya-jin Legend?
Secondary Character Backstories?

I want your brainstorms like you owe me money.

[Terra-jin]

Oh, I've got a lot more, trust me

1. The artificial humans need more background. If some scientist can create machines with more power than Freeza, there must be a very, very good explanation or it just doesn't sound credible.
2. Also, the reason for the creation of the AH's must be reconsidered. A super scientist hates Goku with all his life because he was part of an army that Goku killed in which he wasn't even ever mentioned!
3. Thirdly, what's Cell's story? It seems strange that he needed to absorb two cyborgs to become perfect. Why didn't Gero just make Cell perfect to begin with?

The artificial humans - mysteries revealed

After Goku destroyed the Red Ribbon army as a child, one of the army’s lead scientists survived and lived with the sole purpose of revenge and world domination. It isn’t sure what position the scientist, Dr. Gero, had within the army or why he developed such a grudge against Goku. Still, Gero’s rage drove him to devote his life to end Goku’s. However, he was renowned for his brilliance, even by the world’s greatest scientists. His achievements, though catastrophic, changed the entire Universe.

The start of project C.E.L.L.

Gero knew that ordinary weapons were powerless against Goku. The power of life energy, or ‘ki’, far surpassed the potential of the most lethal weaponry on Earth. Ki is created from thin air by will and emotion. This is why technology never had anything to do with it; there was no connection between the machine and ki. Yet, ki could move mountains and split the skies. Entire planets could be destroyed by its incredible power.
The future lay in this energy, rather than in technology. With this in mind, Gero’s ultimate weapon was to be a living creature - an artificial being. But what creature could be more powerful than Goku? To accomplish this dreadful ambition, Gero planned to collect cells of powerful fighters, then to fuse these cells together into a clone of all martial arts experts. Since Goku’s own power would not be enough, Gero wanted to add the power of every martial artist into the clone.
This clone was to reach a new level of energy - all for the ultimate purpose of defeating and killing Goku. The clone was named Cell, a reference to the idea behind it and an acronym for Clone of Every Living Legend. Goku’s clone was meant to be the one to defeat him in the end.

The transcending power of #16

After Gero made the preparations, he discovered that the project would take far longer than he first realized. He left the completion of his C.E.L.L.-project to his supercomputer and focused on finding a faster method to create an artificial being. After several failed attempts, Gero did it. He succeeded in creating an android which possessed an artificial intelligence on the same level of human intelligence. Because of this, the machine actually possessed a sentience; it had emotions and willpower. It was the first time in the history of the entire Universe that true artificial sentience had been created. In fact, Gero even found a way to teach the machine, dubbed #16, to use ki through its sentience. This was a monumental discovery. Not only did the machine truly live, it could use its own life energy.
Gero’s breakthroughs wouldn’t stop there. He came up with the principle of using sentience to convert physical energy into ki. This conversion was so incredible; just a speck of physical energy could be converted into a huge amount of ki. The result was an energy that paled even the Super Saiyan in comparison, the greatest power in the entire Universe. Furthermore, the process was infinitely more efficient - adding a truly inhuman sense to the being. Artificial human #16 didn’t have auras and he didn’t radiate energy. This meant that he couldn’t be sensed.
However, the programming was so incredibly complex that he was never able to attune the android’s A.I. to his exact wishes. Although Gero did program #16 to kill Goku, it proved nearly impossible, even for Gero, to program #16 for more specific tasks. As it would turn out, the machine eventually developed a conscience and a love for all life. Although #16’s programming was a success in that it became sentient, it wasn’t possible for Gero to perfectly control it. Gero shut the android down and searched for a solution which would allow him to control his creations completely.

The cyborgs; a fusion between flesh and physical energy

If pure artificial intelligence was too complex to control, what could be the answer? Gero soon got the terrible idea to use the mind of human beings as a template. To this end, he kidnapped two infants, erased their memories and any trace of their humanity. The infants, a brother and sister, would never be the same. Gero combined their bodies with cybernetic parts and merged their intelligence with a less complex form of A.I. This way, Gero hoped to be able to control the twins while leaving their ability to use and convert ki intact.
The twins had less power than #16, but still possessed a power that paled the Super Saiyan in comparison. This was probably due to the imperfections of the human mind, yet their energy usage itself was almost as efficient as #16’s. Number 17 and 18 did radiate energy, but no more than the average, non-trained human being. In this respect, they were a success. However, they were even more difficult to control than #16. The problem was not the complexity of their programming, but the interference of what little humanity they had left. Number 17 and 18 both had a will of their own, rather than being too intricate in their programming. Because of this, they would actively go against Gero’s directives and tried to kill him. Luckily for Gero, he built an emergency shut-off mechanism that he used whenever the twins caused problems.
The twins knew this, and one day they succeeded in destroying the emergency controller. After this, killing Gero was a small matter and the cyborgs had found their freedom. Unaware of the terrible evil they left, the cyborgs started their war against humanity. The Earth became Hell.

In the original future, the cyborgs 17 and 18 killed Gero at around 784 and proceeded to amuse themselves at the expense of the population of Earth. The cyborgs deeply hated people for being what they had once been and what Gero had done to them. Just these two created the hellish future of Trunks.
The ones in the main timeline did not share in this blind hatred and selfishness. Instead, they viewed life as a game with no consequences. These cyborgs never killed a single person, though they did aim to kill Goku. It didn’t really matter to them either way, they just thought of it as an ideal way to pass time. It should also be noted that these new cyborgs were even stronger than their original counterparts.
The wide difference in outlook was probably because in the main timeline, Gero found the time to improve #17 and 18. He increased their power and the measure in which their human minds were suppressed. This effectively meant that the improved artificial part of their intelligence suppressed their irrational hatred against humanity.

Back to the drawing board

In the main timeline, Gero was subtly influenced by Trunks’ and Cell’s time travel. As a result, he didn’t get killed by the cyborgs in 784. He survived and found the time to improve #17 and 18. Additionally, he created a 19th android.

This android was, as the definition implies, fully artificial again. Gero was still searching for an artificial human he could perfectly control, so he chose yet another different approach. This time, he made the artificial sentience as sophisticated that it would just be able to convert ki while keeping it as simple as possible. Finally, it was a success. Number 19 was completely submissive to Gero and was still very powerful. Its power was not as strong as the Super Saiyan, however.
Gero then used this android to transplant his brain and his consciousness into a cybernetic body of his own. This became #20. Gero still had his own, purely human intelligence, but he was able to convert ki from his robotic power supplies. With this technology, Gero was at roughly the same level as #19. To back them up, Gero installed #19 and himself with energy absorption devices should their power run out.
With his new cyborg form, Gero could witness the rise of his ultimate creation. Although he could kill Goku himself, Gero developed an obsession for the perfect artificial being. The purpose behind the being was nothing less than universal domination. Gero was not alone in this endeavor; another artificial being existed for that same purpose - far exceeding even Gero’s envisioned perfection.

Cell’s perfection

During the research of #17 and 18, Gero realized that Cell could use the physical energy sources of these cyborgs to attain a power that was on the very limits of imagination. Since the cyborgs were organic in nature, they could merge with Cell. As such, he programmed Cell to try to absorb the two once he was completed. Cell was still under construction by Gero’s supercomputer, but Gero altered the project to include the absorption of the cyborgs.
During Cell’s incubation, he received DNA from all fighters that battled on Earth. In the end, Cell was a being combined of the human, Saiyan, Namekian and Arcosian races. Cell’s appearance was likely derived from the designs that the computer, influenced by Gero, developed for Cell in all his forms. It was not the result of fusion, though there were several features of Cell which reminded of his heritage.
He also possessed the potential and characteristics of each individual fighter, making the project a complete success. With the absorption of the two cyborgs, Cell would combine his already incredible ki with the principle of physical energy conversion and become a perfect creation - in the twisted vision of Gero, at least.
Being indoctrinated to do so, Cell’s ultimate purpose was to become perfect. It replaced its previous ultimate purpose of killing Goku, unknown to Gero. In the end, Cell didn’t want to kill Goku per se; after his completion Cell amused himself by fighting and terrorizing. Gero’s ultimate weapon became an unguided doomsday device.

I hope this post isn't too long.

Anyway, this covers points 1 and 3. The second question remains. Why were the AH's created? Were the artificial humans part of some grand project of the RR?

[caejones]

Well, the RR did have #8, not to mention a few robots and such here and there. Perhaps Gero was a renouned scientist, but his area of focus was questionable in its humane-ness ... but the RR didn't mind. So essentially the Red Ribbon army was pretty much responsible for giving Gero a means of living his life the way he wanted... and their destruction at the hands of Goku left him losing quite most of value. And... umm... other stuff.
And Iink Gero's role is to be muy expanded in DragonballDaisuki's novel project, which I'd imagine would fill in the gaps quite nicely!

[Terra-jin]

RR did have robots & stuff, but nothing of these had anything to do with ki. To the RR (and to the rest of the DB world), ki was a relatively unknown concept which potential was not yet discovered. Only after the RR's complete decimation by the ki of a child could they have begun to think in terms of artificial humans (to utilize ki as a weapon).
So maybe the AH sagas can be seen as the transition of a materialistic world to one using ki and the realization of the weakness of physical weapons. It could be very nice to see a world where technology is losing its place as the foremost testament to civilization's achievements. To people like Gero, who inherited their power by the need for technology, the rise of ki amongst the awareness of the world would mean the downfall of their status.

However, Gero wasn't stupid. He saw that he could combine technology with ki and from this point he would work on the androids / cyborgs. It's a union between the physical and the psychical. The whole thing could be metaphorically called "Technology's Revenge".

NOTE: In my previous post I stated that the AH's got their huge amounts of ki by converting electrical / normal energy into life energy by a factor of [a lot]. This is kind'a silly because they could, with their newly acquired ki, generate even more normal energy (driving generators and such) so this would mean infinite power -_-'
A more plausible solution would be to have the AH's convert mass into energy with ki. I haven't got this process worked out well, yet, so any help / thoughts are welcome.

[caejones]

Well, according to Trunks they had some sort of infinite energy source... how that'd work, I'm not sure... but Gero is a mad genius...

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Hey guys, sorry I haven't been able to contribute much so far! I do have... extensive plans for Gero; in the sense of fleshing him out as well as integrating him into all or most of the major plotpoints in my revision of the RR/Piccolo Daimao sagas. I had these sketches in a notebook and various captions that explained my ideas. When I get access to a scanner, I'll put them up here and you guys can let me know what you think.

But as far as the Artificial Humans' infinite "energy" source goes... I always sort of figured Gero outfitted them with something resembling an energy magnet... they tended to just absorb it from everywhere around them. When I say energy, I don't mean ki specifically. Just the amalgamation of various atmospheric energy -- heat, magnetism, electricty, et cetera. The dialogue from the scene where Bulma's commenting on #17's blueprints makes me think of some sort of nanomachine that simply disperses energy at a ridculous rate.

In keeping with a gradual transition from Artificial Humans to... Cell, we might even want to make #17 and 18's "enhancements" improvements on an almost genetic level -- basically, a gaggle of chemicals and hormones designed to keep their bodies up to speed with the cybernetic parts that are constantly supplying them with power.

But let's get back to some of Terra-jin's original ideas:

1. The artificial humans need more background. If some scientist can create machines with more power than Freeza, there must be a very, very good explanation or it just doesn't sound credible.
2. Also, the reason for the creation of the AH's must be reconsidered. A super scientist hates Goku with all his life because he was part of an army that Goku killed in which he wasn't even ever mentioned!

My main approach towards writing Dr. Gero was addressing the question of "What makes a machine out of a man?"

When we first see Dr. Gero, he is rigid and mathematical; he behaves for all intents and purposes, like an imitation of life, but lacking that common spark. He is both less and more than human (he probably sees himself as more). This must be balanced by the revelation that Gero is a human fueled by revenge, the very image of passion. This presents a very interesting conflict of interest. What turned this passionate man of science into this cold hard shell of a human being? What sort of journey has he gone through to get to this point? What has he gone through, to incline him to identify more with machines than fellow men and women?

Taking this into consideration, I felt Gero's arc should be a sort of "fall from grace" tale of tragedy, not completely unlike Anakin Skywalker or the Devil, who was in fact a beautiful, heavenly creature before he fell, prominent both in rank and power. To that end, he should start out as a scientist working for the RR army but unaware of its true nature, or else as an unwilling prisoner of the organization who, through a series of traumatic events, is stripped of his humanity.

In time, he comes to love the ideology of Red Ribbon, but his wife is appalled by it (as he once was). They have a difference, and he storms off, leaving to report to Red. While he's gone, Son Goku is making his rounds destroying the base, and Gero's wife is accidentally killed amongst the falling debris. He takes the gold earings from his wife's corpse and pierces his ears with them, as a keepsake of her life. Then, he takes two prototype energy absorbtion units and goes to meet Goku in order to avenge his wife.

During the battle, Goku tricks him into absorbing too much energy, and his aging process is warped as a result (when he worked for the RRA, he was actually a young man). Thus he loses everything -- his youth, his career, his wife, his livlihood -- for which he blames Goku.

Most importantly, he loses control of his own life, and before long is reduced to an empty shell of a man. When his wife died, the rest of the world could go to hell for all Gero cared. And so his Jinzoningen, or "Artificial Humans", gradually began to take on the features of a tool meant for indiscriminate destruction and less so as an expression for his revenge against Son Goku. If he couldn't be happy, then nobody else deserved to be either.

He's meant to sort of show where that narrowing path of self-interest leads. You end up old, lonely, and angry, openly contemptuous of the rest of mankind. And your end will assuredly come from your own devices.

3. Thirdly, what's Cell's story? It seems strange that he needed to absorb two cyborgs to become perfect. Why didn't Gero just make Cell perfect to begin with?

As far as Cell's story goes, he's definitely the creation meant for the undoing of all life as opposed to Goku's life specifically (as an expression of Gero's sense of justice/revenge). It was his legacy, what Gero wanted to leave behind after he passed on -- the Breaking of the Universe.

In keeping with our central theme regarding Majin Boo, we could even make Gero religous in the belief that Chaos has to fill the Universe before it can end, the carrying out of which he sees as his ultimate destiny. The jaded scientist in him says "The point of all life is to end; nothing new can exist without the destruction of the older generation. We must destroy everything we know and hold dear in order to usher in everything new and terrifying."

In this way he sort of carries on Bibidi's work, who for whatever reason saw the Breaking of the Universe as an absolute necessity. Cell is meant to be the Great Destroyer, the tool for this breaking, in place of Majin Boo.

Cell needs to biologically fuse with 17 and 18 because each Jinzoningen is imbued with the ability to generate/attract certain types of energy (with each twin specializing in different types). By building up his base strength through the absorbtion of humans, Cell is able to handle all of these energies (which neither 17 or 18 could do individually), the amalgamation of which... is equivalent to pure ki, perhaps? Thus, in his perfect form, Cell becomes a ki magnet.

Of course, that's just one idea. We can go another way if you want.

:J