Gohan vs Super Buu after absorbing Gotenks

[Son Wukong]

This fight could have been much greater than it is. I mean at first we see mystic Gohan beating the hell out of Super Buu with NO difficulty at all. Then after Super Buu absorbs Gotenks the fight between Gohan and Super Buu begins and you actually see both fighters having difficulty with each other. The fight seems pretty equal and then completely out of nowhere Gohan is all torn up after a punch and a simple blast. The next scene he can't even lay a hand on Super Buu although he can take a Makankosappo head on. This was really misleading and confusing. In my opinion mystic Gohan should have been given the chance to keep up the fight a little longer.

Anyone have similar thoughts?

[Neon Z]

That inconsistency happens because, in the manga, the match was never even after the absorption, Buu had the advantage the entire time. The anime tried to change it by making Gohan closer to Buu, but then it had problems transitioning back to the scenes from the manga.

[FindKenshi]

I think you may just be a bit missinformed. It makes perfect sense for Buu to go from no match to Gohan, to Gohan being no match for him, after absorbing Gotenks.

This is because in Dragonball, you don't have to be four times stronger then someone to beat them.

Lets look at some examples.
Vegeta = BP 18,000 vs. Goku (Kaioken) = BP 16,000
Vegeta was stomping Goku easily. And there was only about an 11% difference in their power; that is, one could say, a 1.125 times difference in power.

A power difference that low was substantial enough for Vegeta to beat Goku without really breaking a sweat.

Think it's a fluke? There's more.

Vegeta = BP 24,000 vs Kiwi = BP 18,000
Here we have a 25% difference or so (1.333 times difference), and we see that Vegeta kills Kiwi easily with just two hits.

Vegeta = BP 24,000 vs Dodoria = BP ~20,000 (estimated)
Here we have an even smaller difference, 16%, (or about 1.2 times difference), and Vegeta kills Dodoria just as easily as you please.

So you can see... it does not take a massive difference in power, in order to trash your opponent beyond the breaking point. Now lets review Gohan vs Super Buu. Gohan was able to walk all over Super Buu, move faster then he could see, and beat him up with physical attacks. This doesnt' mean Gohan was 4 or 5 times stronger then Super Buu, as whenever we've seen difference of double power or more between opponents, one usually dies with a single blow. (Gohan vs Cell Juniors). It is very much possible that Gohan is only 1.3 times stronger then Super Buu, maybe even less. He'd still be able to thrash him.

Now, Gotenks is stated to be only a bit weaker then Gohan. And it was pretty apparent that Gotenks is stronger then Super Buu. So Super Buu absorbing Gotenks would have more then doubled his own strength, and could have easily put him above Gohan by like 10% or so, or whatever, which based on every other fight, is more then enough to do to Gohan, what he did.

[Lavender Saiyan]

Now, Gotenks is stated to be only a bit weaker then Gohan.

Where was that? Gotenks and Buu were fairly even. Gohan obliterated Buu.

[FindKenshi]

Now, Gotenks is stated to be only a bit weaker then Gohan.

Where was that? Gotenks and Buu were fairly even. Gohan obliterated Buu.

When Trunks and Goten are discussing Gohan's incredible new power.

Trunks: He may be as strong as our Super Gotenks.
Goten: No, he's stronger!
Trunks: Maybe by a little...

Also, Gotenks was not by any means even with Super Buu. When he got serious, Super Buu didn't have a chance. You need to remember, Gotenks was seconds away from finishing Buu off, before his fusion wore off.

[Genki-Dama]

But why did Toriyama make Gohan stronger if he was just gonna get his ass handed to him?

[FindKenshi]

But why did Toriyama make Gohan stronger if he was just gonna get his ass handed to him?

It always slightly annoys me, when people complain about how Gohan's "big buildup" led to nothing. Gohan was immediately established as the weakest (major) Saiyan at the start of the Buu Saga, had a pitiful display against a side-villain; one that Goku and Vegeta regarded with utter nonchalance, and then spent half of the saga sitting on the ground, while an old man danced around him.

If Gohan had received his power-up from this ritual, and just came and abruptly ended the conflict--that, I would call bad storytelling. That would be so unsatisfying, as well as anti-climatic.

[Xyex]

But why did Toriyama make Gohan stronger if he was just gonna get his ass handed to him?

Because Gohan was supposed to kick Buu's ass but Toriyama was made to change it (due to editor and fan demand) to be Goku again. Thus he had to have Gohan taken out. I figure, originally, Gohan and Gotenks Buu would have been a much closer fight with Gohan slightly in the lead. I mean, it'd be far from the first time we saw someone increase their strength to deal with a new and improved Z Fighter. 100% Freeza aginst SSJ Goku, Perfect Cell against SSJU Vegeta, Super Perfect Cell against SSJ2 Gohan....

[Neon Z]

It always slightly annoys me, when people complain about how Gohan's "big buildup" led to nothing. Gohan was immediately established as the weakest (major) Saiyan at the start of the Buu Saga, had a pitiful display against a side-villain; one that Goku and Vegeta regarded with utter nonchalance, and then spent half of the saga sitting on the ground, while an old man danced around him.

But the first half of the Saga was focused on Gohan, even if he was weakened in combat. Then, during the later half, he suddenly loses all the focus and is quickly taken out of action. I don't see why his weakness discredits all the story focus given to him initially...

[FindKenshi]

Because Gohan was supposed to kick Buu's ass but Toriyama was made to change it (due to editor and fan demand)

Well, you can't win 'em all. No matter where I go, people will always claim this--and no matter who does the claiming, they will never back it up. Please, just give me one little interview snippet, something, anything that proves this is true.

For all we KNOW for FACT, Toriyama himself shifted the focus away from Gohan, because lets face it--the Great Saiyaman arc was not exactly the pinnacle of good storytelling. It was bland and uninteresting. Toriyama rocks as a manga writer, but not so much a Super Hero writer.

Even less so as a Romance writer... which he himself has admitted in at least one interview that I read. (It was posted right here in these forums)

[Son Wukong]

That inconsistency happens because, in the manga, the match was never even after the absorption, Buu had the advantage the entire time. The anime tried to change it by making Gohan closer to Buu, but then it had problems transitioning back to the scenes from the manga.

Bah ! I really have to get me the manga !

I understand FindKenshis battle power explanation but even with that in mind the fight bothers me.

[Xyex]

Well, you can't win 'em all. No matter where I go, people will always claim this--and no matter who does the claiming, they will never back it up. Please, just give me one little interview snippet, something, anything that proves this is true.

For all we KNOW for FACT, Toriyama himself shifted the focus away from Gohan, because lets face it--the Great Saiyaman arc was not exactly the pinnacle of good storytelling. It was bland and uninteresting. Toriyama rocks as a manga writer, but not so much a Super Hero writer.

Except Toriyama enjoyed the Saiyaman stuff. And has stated many interviews he kept trying to make Gohan the hero, including in the Buu Saga.

And I'm pretty sure there's an interview where he mentions it. That he'd intended for Gohan to be the hero again but people wanted Goku back so he had to bring him back.

[Rocketman]

This doesnt' mean Gohan was 4 or 5 times stronger then Super Buu, as whenever we've seen difference of double power or more between opponents, one usually dies with a single blow. (Gohan vs Cell Juniors). It is very much possible that Gohan is only 1.3 times stronger then Super Buu, maybe even less. He'd still be able to thrash him.

There's a major hole in that, since during the Freeza fight, Freeza was twenty times stronger than Goku, but didn't make him explode.

[Duo]

To this day, I have no idea why people seem to think being punched by someone many times stronger than you, would make you explode (in the realm of Dragonball).

[Rocketman]

To this day, I have no idea why people seem to think being punched by someone many times stronger than you, would make you explode (in the realm of Dragonball).

Cell Jrs and Movie 12.

[FindKenshi]

Well, you can't win 'em all. No matter where I go, people will always claim this--and no matter who does the claiming, they will never back it up. Please, just give me one little interview snippet, something, anything that proves this is true.

For all we KNOW for FACT, Toriyama himself shifted the focus away from Gohan, because lets face it--the Great Saiyaman arc was not exactly the pinnacle of good storytelling. It was bland and uninteresting. Toriyama rocks as a manga writer, but not so much a Super Hero writer.

Except Toriyama enjoyed the Saiyaman stuff. And has stated many interviews he kept trying to make Gohan the hero, including in the Buu Saga.

And I'm pretty sure there's an interview where he mentions it. That he'd intended for Gohan to be the hero again but people wanted Goku back so he had to bring him back.

And all I'm asking for is a link to that interview, because I've never ever seen it. I kind of expected more from the most authoritative DB discussion board. I mean, if the interview really exists, I'll gladly admit that it's true. But I've never seen any actual proof that Toriyama wanted Gohan to kill Buu, and was 'forced' to make Goku the hero. Not even a shred of proof for that. All I'm asking for is evidence to back that up, is that so wrong?

[Victator Supreme]

It was bland and uninteresting. Toriyama rocks as a manga writer, but not so much a Super Hero writer.

What the hell do you call the Namek and Androids stories? Super heroes are more than costumes.

[FindKenshi]

It was bland and uninteresting. Toriyama rocks as a manga writer, but not so much a Super Hero writer.

What the hell do you call the Namek and Androids stories? Super heroes are more than costumes.

Sure as hell not a super hero story. I called the Saiyaman arc a lackluster Superhero story, becasue it has the whole secret identity thing going, Gohan trying to blend in with regular people, and then fighting crime. It's just... not the kind of story one appreciates out of Dragonball. At least, in my opinion, it is not. It felt wrong, and very forced to me.

[Victator Supreme]

It was bland and uninteresting. Toriyama rocks as a manga writer, but not so much a Super Hero writer.

What the hell do you call the Namek and Androids stories? Super heroes are more than costumes.

Sure as hell not a super hero story.

Lets see a incredibly powerful hero in a colorful outfit fighting an over the top villian who wants to destroy a planet. How is that not a super hero story?

[FindKenshi]

Stop it, you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Stop trying to change the subject, I humbly requested proof that Akira Toriyama stated he wanted Gohan to destroy Buu. I am still requesting said proof.

I do not consider Dragonball to be a Super Hero story, becasue no one is hiding a secret identity, and trying to blend in with regular people.