Was a downfall to SSj4 ever mentioned/named?

[JulieYBM]

I've been thinking and considering SSj3 did a number on Son and Gotenks' fusion time did I was wondering if SSj4 even had the same problem Son originally identified with the original SSj? Son seemed to not have much trouble retaining the form for periods of time even when he wasn't fighting.

[Bussani]

I've been thinking and considering SSj3 did a number on Son and Gotenks' fusion time did I was wondering if SSj4 even had the same problem Son originally identified with the original SSj? Son seemed to not have much trouble retaining the form for periods of time even when he wasn't fighting.

I think it still ate up energy, but was more stable than SSJ3 by far. It did shorten fusion time though if I remember right.

[Sprite Satan]

I've been thinking and considering SSj3 did a number on Son and Gotenks' fusion time did I was wondering if SSj4 even had the same problem Son originally identified with the original SSj? Son seemed to not have much trouble retaining the form for periods of time even when he wasn't fighting.

Well, the fusion of Goku and Vegeta was cut down to 20 minutes because of the power of the SSj4 form, if I remember correctly.

That said, I'm not sure if the SSj4 form "wastes energy" as the original SSj form did, before it was mastered, or as the SSj3 status did. I guess the real question is; Can the SSj4 form be maintained indefinitely.

I'd guess no, but that's hardly authoritative.

[Kaboom]

Aside from shortening Fusion time, which probably could have any other explanation for it, SSj4 never showed any signs of wasting or draining ki like SSj3 did, at least not that I can remember. Heck, there were even times when Goku was greatly weakened or even knocked unconscious but remained in SSj4 no problem.

It's another way I've always gotten the impression that SSj4 was so "different" than the other stages; it's a physical transformation instead of just a boosted state of power.

[Pain]

Well it is the form after the true Legendary Super Saiyajin(Which is the Golden Oozaru). So I'm guessing that maintaining it isn't a big problem.

[Captain Awesome]

Well it is the form after the true Legendary Super Saiyajin(Which is the Golden Oozaru). So I'm guessing that maintaining it isn't a big problem.

I take it that by "True Legendary Super Saiya-jin" you mean the filler Toei pulled out of their asses because Toriyama hadn't drawn SSJ yet?

The one thing I liked about SSJ3 was that it seemed to be using the upper limits of SSJ power, like there was nowhere else to go, rather than another magical transformation like SSJ4.

[Kid Trunks]

Can the SSj4 form be maintained indefinitely.

I'd guess no, but that's hardly authoritative.

When he was just about to use instant transmission to get himself and Piccolo of off Earth Goku ran out of energy, and the SSJ4 form wore off.

And it happened to him against Omega Shenron as well.

[Saiyan-Professor]

I've been thinking and considering SSj3 did a number on Son and Gotenks' fusion time did I was wondering if SSj4 even had the same problem Son originally identified with the original SSj? Son seemed to not have much trouble retaining the form for periods of time even when he wasn't fighting.

Throughout Dragonball GT Kakarrot maintained it far longer periods than Super Saiyan 3. Most likely because he was stronger than he was during the Buu Saga days and throughout the series his Ki reserves continuously went beyond their normal limits because on at least two occasions his combat power were applied through the power lend technique the others Saiyans used on him. Even Vegeta held Super Saiyan 4 for quite a while when they battled Yi Xing Long due to extreme gravity training prescribed by Bulma, which in turn boosted his Ki stores.

Well it is the form after the true Legendary Super Saiyajin(Which is the Golden Oozaru). So I'm guessing that maintaining it isn't a big problem.

I take it that by "True Legendary Super Saiya-jin" you mean the filler Toei pulled out of their asses because Toriyama hadn't drawn SSJ yet?

What does whether Toriyama drew it or not have to do with anything, he sanctioned it so that is good enough.

[Captain Awesome]

What does whether Toriyama drew it or not have to do with anything, he sanctioned it so that is good enough.

Because in the canon storyline, Goku was the Legendary Super Saiya-jin, not some tail-less golden Oozaru, or some bipolar steroid junkie like Broli.

I know it's fun to speculate and all, but there's really no getting around the fact that Goku was the Legendary Super Saiya-jin.

[Saiyan-Professor]

What does whether Toriyama drew it or not have to do with anything, he sanctioned it so that is good enough.

Because in the canon storyline, Goku was the Legendary Super Saiya-jin, not some tail-less golden Oozaru, or some bipolar steroid junkie like Broli.

I know it's fun to speculate and all, but there's really no getting around the fact that Goku was the Legendary Super Saiya-jin.

What is this canon stuff? An official canon does not exist for Dragonball all so-called canons are subjective.

[Rocketman]

What is this canon stuff? An official canon does not exist for Dragonball all so-called canons are subjective.

Oh god, not this again.

The manga is the only reliable source on Dragonball. That's it. Like the filler? Fine, write fanfic about it or whatever. But when filler, or movies, or the Daizenshuu, or anything contradicts the manga, it is wrong.

[Saiyan-Professor]

What is this canon stuff? An official canon does not exist for Dragonball all so-called canons are subjective.

Oh god, not this again.

The manga is the only reliable source on Dragonball. That's it. Like the filler? Fine, write fanfic about it or whatever. But when filler, or movies, or the Daizenshuu, or anything contradicts the manga, it is wrong.

Well that is your opinion and I think the Daizenshuu EX staff presented a well-reasoned argument based on the facts. It is true that the podcast is nothing official but when one approaches their arguments with an open mind they will see, the truth found in their words. They broached the issue in an unbiased manner like genuine scholars of any genre. In addition, the results of their analysis if embraced would end all of the “canon wars” that plague Dragonball fandom.

[Captain Awesome]

Well that is your opinion and I think the Daizenshuu EX staff presented a well-reasoned argument based on the facts. It is true that the podcast is nothing official but when one approaches their arguments with an open mind they will see, the truth found in their words. They broached the issue in an unbiased manner like genuine scholars of any genre. In addition, the results of their analysis if embraced would end all of the “canon wars” that plague Dragonball fandom.

The filler scenes you're talking about contradict a higher order of canon, that being the author's original work. They even discuss the "levels of canon" in the podcast.

There is no getting around the fact that Goku was the Legendary Super Saiya-jin, if you want to write a fanfic about how a giant golden monkey defeated Freeza, then go ahead, but you can't deny what Toriyama wrote himself.

[Chrono Trigger]

I don't know why it's so hard to believe that everything that happens in the manga is true and anything else that says otherwise is false.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Well that is your opinion and I think the Daizenshuu EX staff presented a well-reasoned argument based on the facts. It is true that the podcast is nothing official but when one approaches their arguments with an open mind they will see, the truth found in their words. They broached the issue in an unbiased manner like genuine scholars of any genre. In addition, the results of their analysis if embraced would end all of the “canon wars” that plague Dragonball fandom.

The filler scenes you're talking about contradict a higher order of canon, that being the author's original work. They even discuss the "levels of canon" in the podcast.

There is no getting around the fact that Goku was the Legendary Super Saiya-jin, if you want to write a fanfic about how a giant golden monkey defeated Freeza, then go ahead, but you can't deny what Toriyama wrote himself.

Yeah that is funny since there are about six of them if you count Mirai-Trunks as a separate character. Moreover, who said anything about the original defeating Freeza?

I don't know why it's so hard to believe that everything that happens in the manga is true and anything else that says otherwise is false.

I will turn the question around. Why jump down someone’s throat (not you but in general) if individuals prefer the anime timeline to the manga. To me the anime is more exciting and provides a more in-depth story the only problem I have is the five-minute staring contests.

[Chrono Trigger]

I will turn the question around. Why jump down someone’s throat (not you but in general) if individuals prefer the anime timeline to the manga. To me the anime is more exciting and provides a more in-depth story the only problem I have is the five-minute staring contests.

I mean it's cool to have your own preferences and stuff. I'm always going to believe what I want to believe (I like to think Piccolo and the others tried to help Gohan out) but when it comes down to it, the manga goes over everything else. No Black Star Dragon Balls, No falling off Snake way and having to start over, and No Cell and Freeza locked up in prison. As cool as all that stuff is it just didn't happen.

[Saiyan-Professor]

I will turn the question around. Why jump down someone’s throat (not you but in general) if individuals prefer the anime timeline to the manga. To me the anime is more exciting and provides a more in-depth story the only problem I have is the five-minute staring contests.

I mean it's cool to have your own preferences and stuff. I'm always going to believe what I want to believe (I like to think Piccolo and the others tried to help Gohan out) but when it comes down to it, the manga goes over everything else. No Black Star Dragon Balls, No falling off Snake way and having to start over, and No Cell and Freeza locked up in prison. As cool as all that stuff is it just didn't happen.

Where is there an official statement to that? I have not seen any here present that documentation from Toriyama. That is why I say it is all subjective. Now if the VegettoEX staff says that the manga is the absolute authority on all things Dragonball that is a different story because they are the moderators of the forum and we all would have to acquiesce. However, the rules state:

While the vast majority of members will be familiar with and fans primarily of the original Japanese version, we must understand that fans stem from all over the world and from all types of initiations. However, emphasis will be placed on the original Japanese version, as it is the single "global" version that can be enjoyed by all.

Nothing about whether it is the Japanese manga or anime, it just says the Japanese.

[Mike D]

. . . the only problem I have is the five-minute staring contests.

I.E. filler.

There's nothing wrong with perferring the anime timeline, everyone just thinks that you don't realize that the manga is the story that the author wanted to tell and that everything else are just ideas based off of his story (movies, GT) or were merely created in order to give the author time when creating the next chapter (filler).

But, you do make a point with the "subjectivity" of Toriyama's views because you lack evidence of it.

[Captain Awesome]

Yeah that is funny since there are about six of them if you count Mirai-Trunks as a separate character.

Toriyama had written himself into a corner, he had to go somewhere and a Super Saiya-jin "bargain sale" was the direction he went, that doesn't discount the fact that Goku was the first Super Saiya-jin to appear in a thousand years.

Honestly, I'm not going to argue with you anymore, if you like a throw-away piece of filler enough to prefer it over the author's original work, thats fine, but don't bring it into a discussion like it actually has some weight, especially when compared with the Manga.

[Pain]

Well time skips are the only place where filler could possibly be worth anything. But I do like watching the anime, no matter how shitty Toei's ideas may be sometimes. But canon is canon, and no one can stop the "Canon Wars" if they tried. Not even Son Goku or Tori-Bot.