Episode #0348 (24 November 2013)

[VegettoEX]

Episode #0348 (download MP3) (rss feed) (subscribe in iTunes) (YouTube version)
52:07; 96 kbps, mono; 36.0 MB

Episode #0348! VegettoEX, Meri, and Herms dive back into the 2008 Jump Super Anime Tour Special. Now that five years have passed since its original release, how does it hold up? Does the release and production style of “Battle of Gods” color our enjoyment of the 2008 special in any way? We let you know what we think, and you all do the same!

Referenced sites:

• Jump Super Anime Tour Special "Movie Guide" Page
• (News Archive) Manga Adaptation of 2008 Jump Super Anime Tour Special Coming
• (News Archive) Final Jump Super Anime Tour Comic Edition Details

Enjoy the episode! Good to be back in the swing of things!

[El Diabeetus]

I'm totally lost on the Who's that Character. I liked the FireRed/LeafGreen Wild theme at the beginning, haha! I liked the special a lot despite it not having full Toriyama influence like Battle of Gods. The only thing that bothered me about the art style is how the outline of Super Saiyan's hair just didn't fit. This is the happy medium that I would've excepted Dragon Ball to look like modernly instead of the over shiny homogenous Yamamuro style used in all productions after it. I liked BoG score, but it's always nice to hear good ol' Kikuchi music.

[JulieYBM]

I loved the use of the wild Pokemon piece at the beginning. "A wild Herms appeared!" I am overwhelmed by the prospect of learning multiple languages, so my hat is tipped to you, Mister Jake.

I am ecstatic to hear that Nishio Daisuke was interviewed in V-JUMP. I am very much looking forward to the translations, whenever luck grants Julian the time to work on them.

Oh my, I forgot I had Tweeted that. Tate Naoki's key animation and corrections really helped to give the special some uniqueness among recent Dragon Ball animated productions. Yamamuro Tadayoshi has kept to keeping everyone on model too much. Tate hasn't acted as a key animator or animation supervisor on Dragon Ball animation since 2008, barring some key animation for the Ultimate Blast cut scenes. For Battle of Gods it felt like Yamamuro only selected animation supervisors who would keep close to his models.

Regarding this episode's Who's That Character? I am going to place my money on...damn. I have no idea. It's from one of the movies, I think. 'Pin pon' is the equivalent of 'bingo', I believe, so there's one hint.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

Been a while since I've listened to the podcast.

I really enjoyed your thoughts on the JSAT special and how it holds up after half a decade. Sadly, I missed out on it back when it was streamed online (I wasn't part of this community at the time), and only recently got to see it when I got the Battle of Gods limited edition Blu-ray, but for what it's worth, I thoroughly enjoyed every last minute of it.

As for Who's That Character?, I know exactly who it is!

Spoiler:

Lucifer.

[Tanooki Kuribo]

Regarding the previous "Who's That Character?!", I totally thought that sizzling sound was film age!

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

"Who's that Character?!" You know what? I don't have a fucking clue, I lose.

On the Jump Special, I watched it fairly recently since it came with Battle of Gods. I have to say, it's a lot funnier than BOG. I feel like a lot of the JSAT Special's humour came from the characters just being themselves, whereas in BOG I thought it felt a bit forced at times. The JSAT Special also nails the "nostalgia-factor" a lot better than BOG did. Orange Hero and that ending animation...

[Gyt Kaliba]

I'm still working on slowly burning through a lot of old podcasts that I haven't heard before (fun times, and as I think you've commented before, the news segments can be pretty funny in retrospect - I've even caught a few where someone has made an offhand comment that now comes off as eerily prophetic!), but when I saw this one was out, I had to jump ahead quite a bit and listen to this one first.

Sad thing though? I completely forgot that this was likely an upcoming podcast. So when I posted my reply on Facebook, I didn't even think about going really in-depth in my response. I guess that's better for a forum post anyway though. Oh, and I guess I really should change my Facebook name to my real name eventually. Listening to people try to pronounce my online name of Gyt Kaliba is making it increasingly obvious that it apparently comes off as like an Arabic name or something.

Anyway, the JSAT special! I think the last time I watched it was probably a year to two years ago, back when I was re-watching the entire franchise subbed for the first time. I've probably seen it about three or four times total, but I admit I haven't seen it again recently. I probably should go back and watch it again now, as this podcast has made me really nostalgic for it.

What made the JSAT so special for me is the same thing that lots of others have said - it was the first brand new DB material in years. Sure, we had new releases of the anime and manga, and new games all the time, but it was always just a new copy of the same material we'd had for 20 years. That's always exciting in it's own way, but it's not quite the same thrill that something brand new, something that you don't know how it's going to end, can bring. That's what the JSAT brought to me. Now that I think about it too, that could be the first time I'd ever had that feeling for Dragon Ball. Ever since I became a fan in my really early teens, I was always playing catch up with watching stuff as it came out, but thanks to the internet, I already knew everything that was going to happen anyway - the broad strokes of it at least. With this special though, you couldn't do that until it was out. You had to wait to actually see it to really get the whole story. And that was amazing to me.

Like I said on Facebook, I really do like what this special brought to the table. The new characters were fun in their own way, even with how limited they were in scope. I mentioned this in another thread on the JSAT, but I still think that Table was actually kind of a nice way to do the character, in retrospect. I wish he'd done more, but I like the idea of Vegeta's brother being a nobody weakling, because it's not what you would expect. It's almost like Toriyama or Toei or whoever technically made him looked online at a lot of fanfiction and comics that had a 'big, badass older brother' for Vegeta, and decided to do the complete opposite of that in every sense. And Table's wife is totally worth it just for her interaction with Vegeta. Oh, and I do like that Battle of Gods references him.

Oh, and on the name thing - I do know it's not said like 'let's sit down at the table', but I still prefer to spell it as Table rather than Tarble. The extra 'r' just...I dunno. I understand why it's used after the explanation in the podcast, but I still prefer Table. I'm reading/saying it as everyone says 'Tarble' though, just without the R...if that makes any sense. I suck at explaining speech in text.

Abo and Cado really are pretty forgettable, and I don't have much to say on them, but I guess I do like the aspect of some of Freeza's men still being out there, and are trying to pick up where their boss left off. Coupled with the DBO thing of so many of them still being loyal to Freeza's memory and going to avenge him on Earth though, if you take both into your personal 'canon' (yes, everyone's favorite word, I know), then you have to wonder if they were ostracized out of the rest of the remnant forces for wanting to take his place, or if there's a bunch of different remnant forces all taking their own initiatives on what to do now. I think I like the latter idea actually.

This special still has some of my favorite gags too, and between this and Battle of Gods both, it's made me realize that the only time where I truly enjoy Vegeta is when he's completely out of his element. Same with Piccolo actually, now that I think back to stuff like his dealing with Gotenks. I love it when the serious characters finally get caught up in something so insane that they have to play the straight man to keep things going. Going back to Vegeta though, I particularly enjoy that this special introduced the concept of Vegeta's rivalry with Goku still being alive, just in a more laid-back, goofier manner than before. This is all my own inference, but I like to use that idea to explain things like the kanzenban ending, Battle of Gods, and GT - post-Boo arc stories that still have Vegeta going on about beating Goku someday. I like to think that Vegeta still trains and wants to maybe surpass Goku, but if he doesn't, it's no big deal. That's still a radical departure from how he was before the 'You are number one' speech, so it not only keeps that character development for him, but keeps the status quo too. And kinda evolves him further, if you think about it. Besides, it's not like it's the first time we've seen Vegeta change his mind ('I'm never going to fight again', anyone?)

On the subject of the music, I'm kind of in the middle here. I love the Kikuchi score, but having grown up with the Falcouner score for so long, I think I'm a little more open to new music in the franchise than a lot of you are - not saying that's a bad thing, just saying where I stand in comparison. Hearing the old music in the JSAT was nice, and it makes it flow with the rest of the franchise better...but I do really like all of the new music in Battle of Gods too, especially the insert song. There's no getting around the fact that, awesome as it is, the Kikuchi score sounds pretty dated, so I can see why they're almost moving into new musical territories with the other new material. That's what I liked so much about the Kai score, it sounded like a fitting tribute to the old score, while still sounding new and grand. But...we...all know how that worked out...

I like the new animation for this version of 'Head-Cha-La', but I still have a problem with it's use here and in Battle of Gods both. I know it's the most iconic DBZ song, but I've always liked 'We Gotta Power' better, and that IS the series' theme from the point in time that both of these stories take place. So why not use it instead? I fully admit that this is partially bias on my part though. Of all of the Dragon Ball opening themes (on the original Japanese side I mean), Head Cha La is probably my least favorite.

I love, love, love Orange Hero though, and whatever favors we have to do to finally get a full version of that song, I'll joing everyone in doing them. I have no shame. I don't know if it's so much the song itself or just the great scenes they animated to go along with it, but I just love this outro.

Before I wrap up this way-too-long post, I'd also like to mention that I do agree that this special focused more on the light side of Dragon Ball than the 'heavy' side. Battle of Gods is still light, but I think it hit the balance that the later portions of the series bring pretty well. It has the best of both worlds, which I think is why it's the one I like better. I still really want this special to get released here though. Please, please, get to license it along with BoG, FUNi. Those favors I mentioned? I'll do them twice. Plllleeeeaassseee let me buy this.

Oh, and is it officially stated that Battle of Gods is three years after this special (making it five years after the Boo arc), or is that just the common assumption? It's my assumption too, but I'd like to know if it's officially stated. That part was a little unclear in the podcast.

In conclusion, the tl;dr version for everyone - I liked this special. A lot. I wanna own it. Gimme, gimme, gimme!

P.S.: Oh, off topic a little, but Letter Bee did end up getting more anime adaptations. After that special, it got a 25 episode series, and then a second series/season of another 25 episodes. I think the series might be a little more known under the Tegami Bachi title from what I've seen. What little I've read of the manga is fun, but I haven't gotten around to really getting into it myself.

[VegettoEX]

Oh, and is it officially stated that Battle of Gods is three years after this special (making it five years after the Boo arc), or is that just the common assumption? It's my assumption too, but I'd like to know if it's officially stated. That part was a little unclear in the podcast.

They're officially going with Age 778 for Battle of Gods. This citation in particular, at least, comes from Chōzenshū #4:



The battle with Majin Buu takes place in Age 774 (the entire arc essentially takes place over the course of May 7th to May 9th). The JSAT special within itself states that it takes place about two years after that. We've got Battle of Gods taking place in 778, so there's some judging of the four/five years mark in there. The 28th Tenka'ichi Budōkai then takes place May 7th in Age 784 (in a ten-year time skip we are told about right in the manga).

In case anyone's reading this and doesn't know, May 7th is the de facto date for the Tenka'ichi Budōkai to take place during its respective year.

[JulieYBM]

Oh wow, I was unaware that there was an official statement of "Battle of Gods happens in Age 778." Even if it's contradictory I am glad to see an official date, just for the Hell of it.

EDIT: Fixed typo of 'statemtn' to 'statement'.

[Herms]

The Chouzenshuu 4 timeline also puts the events of the JSAT special in "circa Age 776", coming straight off the "about two years later" line in the movie. And it has Beers going to sleep in Age 739, going off the repeated mentions of him sleeping for 39 years. The big contradiction here: this means his nap started two years after the destruction of Planet Vegeta, even though in he and Whis' conversation at the start of BoG they say this occurred during his nap. But there's no way to get all the facts to line up just right.

A brief timeline to sum up, going off of Chouzenshuu 4:

Age 737: Goku's born, Freeza destroys Planet Vegeta.
Age 739: The Oracle Fish predicts a "formidable foe" for Beers in 39 years' time; he goes to sleep until then.
Age 749: Start of DB
Age 761: Start of DBZ
Age 774: Boo arc
circa Age 776: JSAT special
Age 778: BoG
Age 779: Pan is born (obviously this is less than 9 months after BoG, but it's still the next calendar year over)
Age 784: 28th TB; end of manga/DBZ. Pan is 4, going on 5.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Thanks for clearing up the timeline stuff a little more guys. It's nice to know we have something official on it and not just guesses based on stuff that's said...even if it seems like the official stuff comes from that too, heh.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Age 737: Goku's born, Freeza destroys Planet Vegeta.

Well, we are getting that one is from the TV Special, which shows that Goku arrived to Earth as a baby. However, we recently had Jaco The Galactic Patrolman from Toriyama, and it had Goku arriving to Earth at around age 2. And we don't have anything in the manga that has the destruction of Planet Vegeta happening when Goku was born, right?

[Wasted Wisher]

Ah, the Dragon Ball JSAT special...the beginning of my fall from Toei.
If I wasn't such a damn attention whore... I mean, what made me think that I really had to go out of my way and stick my neck out to contribute behind-the-scenes material? Did I really think that the DB fan community couldn't get along without me? I should have just kept what I knew to myself and let things play out without my involvement. It's not like the internet DB community got turned upside down or changed permanently because of what I did...
Ahem
Okay, enough old man bitterness from me. How've you guys been?

[JulieYBM]

Ah, the Dragon Ball JSAT special...the beginning of my fall from Toei.
If I wasn't such a damn attention whore... I mean, what made me think that I really had to go out of my way and stick my neck out to contribute behind-the-scenes material? Did I really think that the DB fan community couldn't get along without me? I should have just kept what I knew to myself and let things play out without my involvement. It's not like the internet DB community got turned upside down or changed permanently because of what I did...
Ahem
Okay, enough old man bitterness from me. How've you guys been?

Oh wow, so that incident really did get you canned?

[Wasted Wisher]

Actually, it was the "Plot to Annihilate the Super Saiyans/Dragon Ball Heroes" situation that was the nail in my coffin. But looking back, you could say it all started when I leaked the model sheets for the JSAT special.
See, Toei let that JSAT thing squeak by because there was no indication where the leak came from at the time.
Couple of years later, I did the same thing with Plot/Heroes, complacently thinking that I could squeak by again. Stupid me.
So remember people, when your work contract with your dream job has a non-disclosure agreement clause, and you want to KEEP that dream job, then FOR THE LOVE OF KAMI OBEY THE RULES.

[JulieYBM]

Actually, it was the "Plot to Annihilate the Super Saiyans/Dragon Ball Heroes" situation that was the nail in my coffin. But looking back, you could say it all started when I leaked the model sheets for the JSAT special.
See, Toei let that JSAT thing squeak by because there was no indication where the leak came from at the time.
Couple of years later, I did the same thing with Plot/Heroes, complacently thinking that I could squeak by again. Stupid me.
So remember people, when your work contract with your dream job has a non-disclosure agreement clause, and you want to KEEP that dream job, then FOR THE LOVE OF KAMI OBEY THE RULES.

I figured it was Dragon Ball Heroes, but I'm not surprised that the JSAT special caused some issues. I'm sorry that happened, it probably hasn't been easy finding new work. I think Shida Naotoshi has mentioned that Toei has told him to not talk about what he is working on in great detail publically. I wonder if the incident is what forced that? Then again, Shida still Tweets about what he's working on anyway, so maybe not?

[Herms]

Well, we are getting that one is from the TV Special, which shows that Goku arrived to Earth as a baby. However, we recently had Jaco The Galactic Patrolman from Toriyama, and it had Goku arriving to Earth at around age 2. And we don't have anything in the manga that has the destruction of Planet Vegeta happening when Goku was born, right?

We go into this a bit on the next podcast, but basically no, nothing in the manga really specifies Planet Vegeta being destroyed shortly after Goku's birth. The closest thing is (third form) Freeza saying he destroyed the planet nearly 30 years ago, which is actually too far back, since Goku is only about 25 at that point.

Jaco didn't even start until after the last chouzenshuu came out, did it? Maybe they should have held out on the "daizenshuu updated with info on GT/spin-offs" project until then. But I suppose they wanted to release them before BoG to hype the new movie.