The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Discussion specifically regarding the "refreshed" TV version of DBZ created in Japan for its 20th anniversary, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by DBZ_Lee » Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:32 pm

TheAldella wrote:I don't know if anyone pointed it out, but in the Battle of Gods Extras, we get insight on the recording sessions of the English VAs, and in said sessions, Chris Sabat talks to Kyle Hebert about how this approach to Adult Gohan is "different from Kai" and how they "toned him down for Kai".
I don't think Funimation can take this one back easily.
I think this was discussed already a number of weeks back, it would seem as though it's a further indication that FUNi has indeed dubbed it already.

Can any of our French fans tell us if the opening to the International version has evolved yet? I'm hoping it will this week, with Gotenks now being revealed.

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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by ShaneisMC » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:52 pm

Is there an episode list anywhere that's being updated weekly with the international version like how both the standard and dragonball wiki's are continuing to add to the overall Kai episodes list and episode descriptions but only with the japanese cut?

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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by sangofe » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:25 pm

DBZ_Lee wrote:
TheAldella wrote:I don't know if anyone pointed it out, but in the Battle of Gods Extras, we get insight on the recording sessions of the English VAs, and in said sessions, Chris Sabat talks to Kyle Hebert about how this approach to Adult Gohan is "different from Kai" and how they "toned him down for Kai".
I don't think Funimation can take this one back easily.
I think this was discussed already a number of weeks back, it would seem as though it's a further indication that FUNi has indeed dubbed it already.

Can any of our French fans tell us if the opening to the International version has evolved yet? I'm hoping it will this week, with Gotenks now being revealed.
Well, the guy that was recording episodes and put them online suddenly lost J-One...

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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by DBZ_Lee » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:13 pm

sangofe wrote:
DBZ_Lee wrote:
TheAldella wrote:I don't know if anyone pointed it out, but in the Battle of Gods Extras, we get insight on the recording sessions of the English VAs, and in said sessions, Chris Sabat talks to Kyle Hebert about how this approach to Adult Gohan is "different from Kai" and how they "toned him down for Kai".
I don't think Funimation can take this one back easily.
I think this was discussed already a number of weeks back, it would seem as though it's a further indication that FUNi has indeed dubbed it already.

Can any of our French fans tell us if the opening to the International version has evolved yet? I'm hoping it will this week, with Gotenks now being revealed.
Well, the guy that was recording episodes and put them online suddenly lost J-One...

Ah, that's a shame. Thank you for letting us know.

Anyhow, with the news coming today that the final Japanese Kai theme will begin in January - if it's the 1st weekend, then that would mean (in terms of the International version) there are 24 episodes remaining using the theme.
I'm going to assume that the 2nd ending for the International Version titled "Let it burn" will begin the same week.
Now, with this being said, throughout the Buu Saga, themes have changed every 12 episodes, so does this yet again mean Toei will cut again? If so, should we prepare ourselves for more awkward editing, wall to wall music and no breathing room like the opening 7 episodes of the Japanese cut?.
I hope not. The interesting thing about this whole situation is the decision to simulcast the French version the following Monday on J-One.
As it's already been suggested, the work around would be the French version would air 2 episodes throughout the remainder of the series so each week they finish in the same place.

If Toei do cut again, then personally I'm thankful that our version is better edited, and paced.
I'm hoping that all this means in relation to the timing of the 4th theme is they are wanting to change the ending and music at this point because it makes sense for them to do so (if indeed they originally did so in the International Version).
Meaning the last theme will be used for the final 24 episodes, I guess we will see.

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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by Darkblade1995 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:30 pm

I hope Toei will leave the Buu arc as it is right now. While the Buu arc goes at a slower pace than the original Kai, I'm fine with how it goes right now. On the other hand, even if they edit it, it does not really matter anyway. We will still get the 69-episodes-produced Buu arc as intended. So yeah, the Japanese cut doesn't have anything to do with the original cut.

By the way, are you guys sure that Let it Burn song is a ending theme. Toei didn't animate 2 ending animations for the Saiyan and Freeza arc, which are 2 different arcs. So why should Toei animate 2 different endings, for 1 arc, and for a show that wasn't lucrative, and wasn't supposed to be on Japanese TV. It doesn't make any sense to me. Although a insert song doesn't make sense either since those are made so they can sell CD's, but with a insert song they just record like a minute and a half and just place it at the intended scene. No animation required whatsoever.

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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by Valerius Dover » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:04 pm

^We don't know for sure what it is, we just know that it's a song by the same artist as the opening that was created for use in The Final Chapters. Having it be a second ending makes more sense than any of the alternatives. An insert song, as you said, is meant to sell CDs and would be completely pointless outside Japan. Granted, I still think a second ending is pointless, just LESS pointless.

As far as comparing this to the first Kai goes, I'd say anything can happen. It's not necessarily bound by its predecessor's patterns. In fact, it seems to be doing almost everything the opposite.

-16:9 instead of 4:3
-New score instead of old*
-More filler kept
-Very minimal re-editing of scenes

*Plagiarism aside
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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by Darkblade1995 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:16 pm

^I guess so. Actually, because of all those reasons you mentioned, I already considered the Buu arc as a seperate anime even before it was known there was a different version. Everything was so different that in my mind, it wasn't just a contiuation anymore, but a sequel. It's a shame that the production is such a mess. Well, actually, the production seemed to be turned into a mess after the decision to air it on Japanese TV was made.

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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by sintzu » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:41 am

Did the International episode cut out the part where the 2 old people get shot ?
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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:54 pm

sintzu wrote:Did the International episode cut out the part where the 2 old people get shot ?
Yes.

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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by ShaneisMC » Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:59 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
sintzu wrote:Did the International episode cut out the part where the 2 old people get shot ?
Yes.
Wait really? I'm honestly quite surprised to be honest. 100% sure? I'm assuming you've of course seen it but i just wanna double confirm :p

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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by sintzu » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:54 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
sintzu wrote:Did the International episode cut out the part where the 2 old people get shot ?
Yes.
Lets see :

Green tint
Bright colors
Cropped video
Filler
Bad editing
Censored scenes
Cutting out manga scenes

I think I'm gonna go with the Z blu-rays for this arc.
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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by ShaneisMC » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:11 am

sintzu wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
sintzu wrote:Did the International episode cut out the part where the 2 old people get shot ?
Yes.
Lets see :

Green tint
Bright colors
Cropped video
Filler
Bad editing
Censored scenes
Cutting out manga scenes

I think I'm gonna go with the Z blu-rays for this arc.
To be fair, Z blu rays have worse cropping, far more filler, and a much worse dub script at a time where the actors also weren't as experienced. I can't speak for the Japanese version of the shows for comparisons sake, an to be fair again i cant really speak on behalf of Funimation's Buu Kai obviously yet to compare either, but more than likely the english version of this arc in Kai will be superior still than the original. Even if it isnt exactly what you or many others wanted it will still more than likely be an improvement.

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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by sintzu » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:24 am

ShaneisMC wrote: To be fair, Z blu rays have worse cropping, far more filler, and a much worse dub script at a time where the actors also weren't as experienced.
The cropping may be worse but the picture quality looks better.

I would rather go through Z's filler then Kai's bad editing and Censored scenes plus now it seems that they're cutting out scenes that were in the manga.

I agree 100% on Kai's dub being better.

The original Kai was not a perfect show but overall it was an improvement over it's Z counterpart but this Kai on the other hand only has the dub going for it.
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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by DBZ_Lee » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:31 am

I tweeted J-One asking whether this week's episode being shown tonight is the same as what was shown in Japan yesterday, and they confirmed it is.
I thought that would be the case.

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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by Ajay » Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:44 am

sintzu wrote:The cropping may be worse but the picture quality looks better.
Entirely disagree.

The Season Sets feature horrendously blurry line art, smudged backgrounds and intermittent grain smearing.

A quick colour cast removal of Kai's footage provides far superior picture quality.
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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by sintzu » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:19 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote: Entirely disagree.

The Season Sets feature horrendously blurry line art, smudged backgrounds and intermittent grain smearing.

A quick colour cast removal of Kai's footage provides far superior picture quality.
I know the first 4-6 seasons aren't the best but based on what i saw on youtube 7-9 look a lot better but i don't know how accurate youtube is so if you have a comparison it would help.

Skip to 10:4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8JCF4KiRi8
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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by TheRed259 » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:32 pm

DBZ_Lee wrote:I tweeted J-One asking whether this week's episode being shown tonight is the same as what was shown in Japan yesterday, and they confirmed it is. I thought that would be the case.
In the manga there are almost 4 pages considering those 2 gunmen (killing the old couple, preparing to go to town and killing people in town). If this was the International Version, then they should have included these scenes too. They kept that episode
with the guy who looks like Nappa after all.

The people on J-One may either be confused or they were actually telling the truth and they do air the Japanese Version for the sake of the whole simulcast thing.

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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by sintzu » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:41 pm

TheRed259 wrote:They kept that episode
with the guy who looks like Nappa after all.
They cut up Goku's fight with Buu but kept the part with Trunks looking for the dragon radar.
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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by Ajay » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:16 pm

sintzu wrote:
I know the first 4-6 seasons aren't the best but based on what i saw on youtube 7-9 look a lot better but i don't know how accurate youtube is so if you have a comparison it would help.

Skip to 10:4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8JCF4KiRi8
God, I've seen this guy before. All of his comparisons are so superficial and useless. He's comparing Blu-ray shots with compressed TV rips.

With that said, that's all we really can do until the Kai sets catch up. Here's a comparison between a TV rip of Kai (colour-corrected to match the Season colours) vs. a scaled down shot of the Season Set - http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/103418

On a first glance, I fully understand why people go 'Oh, the Season Set is clearly sharper'. I totally get that. The issue is, that knee-jerk observation doesn't take into account the overall image or the original look of the show.

The first thing to take notice of is the line art in the Season shot. To clarify - I mean the black lines alone (not including the shading). They are noticeably watery and this is even more apparent when the shot is actually at its original resolution. Take note of the ear and how smudged it looks. Though we don't have Blu-rays available of Kai to compare at 100% zoom, this is the type of line consistency I expect - http://i.imgur.com/S4Lx4Zw.png (from Boo Kai Box. 1). Even in the later seasons you mentioned, issues like this - http://i1.minus.com/ibekl0GDdCCMn6.png - are still very apparent in medium and long shots.

(To note - when I say '100% zoom', I mean there is no scaling at all and that's how it'll look on your TV. When you scale shots, downsampling occurs which results in a sharper picture than what would be seen at full res. This is not me going over the image with a magnifying glass like some think.)

Next up, the shading is probably the biggest giveaway for me. This is the primary reason why people instinctively say that the Seasons look better. The shading is sharp. It's insanely sharp to the point that it looks flat. The original cels do not look like this whatsoever. Take a look at this Vegeta cel I own - http://i.imgur.com/stlKANd.png - Notice how soft the shading is? That's how Kai's shading looks too and that's how it should look. Unfortunately FUNi's extensive sharpening has entirely flattened it, resulting in this peculiar watercolour look.

Lastly, the grain in the Season sets smear in and out of the image almost constantly. It's most apparent in the sky and shading. I made a gif of this many months ago - http://i.minus.com/in2PBIm0omfBU.gif - Take a look at Nappa's arm and the way the shading is 'dancing'. It's the grain fighting against the removal process on top of extensive sharpening. Not nice to look at.

Kai may be softer at a glance but if you look at each component and how it's supposed to look - it's very clearly the winner.

To address something that always comes up when I criticise this product - Yes, I know it's the only way to own the series without paying ridiculous money. Yes, I know it's better than the Orange Bricks. This doesn't negate the flaws nor save it from criticism though.
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Re: The International Version of the Buu-Kai Arc

Post by sintzu » Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:40 pm

AjayLikesGaming wrote:
Here's a comparison between a TV rip of Kai (colour-corrected to match the Season colours) vs. a scaled down shot of the Season Set - http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/103418
Thanks a lot,This is more then enough for me to say which is better and personally the blu-set is better in both quality and coloring.

The rest of your post is interesting but what you pointed out isn't something that effects my watching experience so I can look past those flaws.

Kai does have a better widescreen transfer and will have a better dub but that's not enough for me to be able to look past it's wired editing,Blurry picture,Green tint,Manga scene removal and censored violence.
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