Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Legion]

O_o DB-Magnum-Expert, at least use spoilers.

Anyway

Current omen UI Goku>Kefla
Beerus>Current omen UI Goku
Kefla>17

129 summary say that only mastered ultra instinct is a power that surpass a God of destruction, so UI Goku is weaker. 17 power is unclear, because Toei nonsense power scaling, but whatever.

[Mister_Popo]

BSSJ Kefla = UI Goku first round

-> First Whis stated she rivaled the Spirit-Bomb. She pushed Goku past his limits a second time. But she didn't lay a hand on UI Goku. Then she seemed to power up even more against UI Goku (before she went SSJ2)
I would rather state she was stronger than the Spirit Bomb at the end. Somewhere between the Spirit Bomb and UI Goku first round. But no equal to UI Goku first round.

You kind of ignored the fact that UI Goku on Episode 116 is stronger than UI Goku on Episode 110, and based her power over the statement from Whis despite the translation actually states that her power is as strong as Goku when he got bathed by the spirit bomb. She didn't power up more than Goku on Episode 116 other than at the end

I haven't ignored that. I do think UI Goku did became stronger in UI. But i don't think he used that kind of power right away in early 116. I mean. He was dodging all her attacks with ease. Why should have been using the same power he used against Jiren at the end straight-off-the-bat, when it wasn't necessary yet? It probably became necessary later on, when she powered-up to SSJ2. There is no evidence supporting BSSJ1 Kefla rivaling UI Goku first round in my opinion.

UI Goku < Beerus

It's the opposite

Yes, you're right. That's a typo from my part. My reply did answer why i think UI Goku Omen = Beerus at the bare maximum.

-> Difficult to confirm, but i really doubt it. They both essentially haven't masterd UI. I think, when Goku masters UI, only then he'll be stronger than Beerus

It's already evident enough from before that he surpassed Beerus.

Why, we haven't seen any proof like Beerus actually confirming it?

BSSJ2 Kefla < 17

-> I don't think Jiren effectively used that much of his power against 17. They just showed us Jiren power up. But nothing implies he really used more of his power than against Blue Goku.

Lol everyone directly states that Jiren was hiding the same power he used Against Goku, Vegeta and 17 on Episode 127 and that the power he used Against them was his true power which he hid throughout the entire tournament

He couldn't have been using his full power against 17. That would have been absurd because 17 is so much weaker. Jiren is saving his full power for a fully mastered UI Goku. Why would he waste it on 17 when did not actually need it?

Current base Goku > ssjg Goku (BOG)

-> I don't believe current base Goku is that strong anymore. There is no proof Goku used God-tier-power in base since ROF.

I'll post why you're wrong now

I think the anime followed the movie-scale in the first two arcs. From U6 onwards, base wasnt that strong anymore. He for instance needed to shift up to SSJ1 to actually confront Frost.
Unless Frost is stronger than SSJG from BOG, which would be absurd, this cannot be true.

[SayianBeyondGod]

This is what happens when people don't acknowledge that Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan God got retconned into being equal. Current SSG Goku is equal to a hypothetical current SBG (Base form from RoF) Goku, and Final Form Freeza is close to SSG Goku level.

Also, Dyspo had the upper hand in his skirmish against SSG Goku.

I can't say I completely agree but it does explain why Freeza was doing so well against Dyspo.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

This is what happens when people don't acknowledge that Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan God got retconned into being equal. Current SSG Goku is equal to a hypothetical current SBG (Base form from RoF) Goku, and Final Form Freeza is close to SSG Goku level.

Also, Dyspo had the upper hand in his skirmish against SSG Goku.

I can't say I completely agree but it does explain why Freeza was doing so well against Dyspo.

There's more than just the Dyspo fight which provides evidence towards this theory. Just look at how Freeza fodderized Jimeze, who was bullying Base Gohan (who is equal to Base Goku) and who Goku decided to go SSJ against.

[SayianBeyondGod]

This is what happens when people don't acknowledge that Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan God got retconned into being equal. Current SSG Goku is equal to a hypothetical current SBG (Base form from RoF) Goku, and Final Form Freeza is close to SSG Goku level.

Also, Dyspo had the upper hand in his skirmish against SSG Goku.

I can't say I completely agree but it does explain why Freeza was doing so well against Dyspo.

There's more than just the Dyspo fight which provides evidence towards this theory. Just look at how Freeza fodderized Jimeze, who was bullying Base Gohan (who is equal to Base Goku) and who Goku decided to go SSJ against.

I use to thought final form frieza being confident enough to take on SSJ2 Caulifa and Beresker Kale was evidence U6 saiyans as SSJ2 only rival base Vegeta and Goku, but again Frieza being SSG level may make sense still especially when kale was in the bunch. There's still evidence that SSJ2 U6 saiyans are rival to base Vegeta or Goku for example Vegeta casually taking out mona with a ki blast while Cabba needed to go SSJ2 to beat her or fatigue base Goku being relevant in power with SSJ2 Caulifa. To conclude it does make sense for Frieza to be SSG tier after gathering up all the feats.

[SayianBeyondGod]

You kind of ignored the fact that UI Goku on Episode 116 is stronger than UI Goku on Episode 110, and based her power over the statement from Whis despite the translation actually states that her power is as strong as Goku when he got bathed by the spirit bomb. She didn't power up more than Goku on Episode 116 other than at the end

Actually I take back that translation I think it's most likely it was Kefla ki being compared to the genkidama not Goku, I was alerted by someone else whom speaks Japanese about alternative translation. "元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに" - the most important part of the translation is の, which indicates possession of the Spirit bomb in which Goku was submerged in or alternatively Goku when he was submerged in the Spirit bomb. But again Goku had no to little ki when bathing in the genkidama as he was under rubble and fell into it when fatigue. It make sense for the spirit bomb to be compared rather than a bathed Goku.


Even people in Japan interpreted this as Kefla rivalling the genkidama directly rather than Goku bathed in it.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/conbul/archives/52119003.html

- ケフラのパワーはブルー元気玉に匹敵する
- Kefura no pawaa wa buruu genkidama ni hittekisuru
- Kefla's power equaled Blue's [i.e Blue Goku I presume] Genkidama

[Miracles]

In the meantime, I'd like to engage in another debate:

In all of your images trying to support this. You missed the part where Beerus clearly stated that Goku's Super Saiyan form was "powered down" from SSJG.

[Kaboom]

WHY BASE GOKU STOMPS SSJG GOKU BOG

Continuing:

DB▪Magnum-Expert, as you can see, I've hidden 99% of your two posts there under spoiler tags, to counteract the ridiculous amount of space they were taking up. I don't know what made you think it was a good idea to needlessly include so many high-res images like that, but please don't do that again. It's obviously just obstructive and exhausting, and trust me, it does nothing to help convince people of... whatever point you're trying to make.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

You kind of ignored the fact that UI Goku on Episode 116 is stronger than UI Goku on Episode 110, and based her power over the statement from Whis despite the translation actually states that her power is as strong as Goku when he got bathed by the spirit bomb. She didn't power up more than Goku on Episode 116 other than at the end

Actually I take back that translation I think it's most likely it was Kefla ki being compared to the genkidama not Goku, I was alerted by someone else whom speaks Japanese about alternative translation. "元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに" - the most important part of the translation is の, which indicates possession of the Spirit bomb in which Goku was submerged in or alternatively Goku when he was submerged in the Spirit bomb. But again Goku had no to little ki when bathing in the genkidama as he was under rubble and fell into it when fatigue. It make sense for the spirit bomb to be compared rather than a bathed Goku.


Even people in Japan interpreted this as Kefla rivalling the genkidama directly rather than Goku bathed in it.

http://blog.livedoor.jp/conbul/archives/52119003.html

- ケフラのパワーはブルー元気玉に匹敵する
- Kefura no pawaa wa buruu genkidama ni hittekisuru
- Kefla's power equaled Blue's [i.e Blue Goku I presume] Genkidama

Actually the true translation about Kefla rivalling Goku's Ki is a supportive to me. It says The Goku who was bathed in the spirit bomb. Which means this is the Goku who was breaking through his shell, which is most likely ultra instinct Goku. Direct Content > arguable interpretation

I won't be replying soon. Also, this contains many downplay material it seems, which I'll refute now

I don't need to add any quality I already added objective evidence to my arguments

This makes it sound as if what you posted is absolute facts. Funny is that you could have added a lot more, but it just seems to me you're only limited to this. Well, at least you've come at me with this challenge

I don't need to make a bigger argument if none of my points are challenged. Again I don't need to change any points, they're still valid regardless of format or size of argument.

You need a lot more evidence and correctly interpreted statements than easily arguable arguments that can easily be countered. More evidence equates to more validity, as it increases the chances of your point being correct.

You act like being more elbourative changes any points or evidence but it doesn't. If you want a bigger argument okay, but the points are still the same.

I'm not acting, it's just true. The more you provide evidence the better your argument gets solidified, but you're lacking this. So I'll argue against you now on this

In halfway of episode 115, when Vados claims that kefla at SSJ should take blue Goku carefully, while champa responded that Goku was still fatigue implying to why Kefla stood a chance which was due to Goku currently being fatigued in the fight and proves that a full power SSB would be too much, with no argument against her statement from champa. Just after that Vados question whether Kefla can take on(not beat or win) fatigue blue goku(which champa already acknowledges in the conversation) in which Champa responded "yeah"

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

Lmao that would make Kefla weaker than hit despite Kefla being stated (After hit fights Jiren) that she's the secret weapon for Universe 6:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

This is also stated by Champa, confirming that Kefla was the trump card:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Champa also states that Kefla is Universe 6's trump card:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Surprisingly, Hit improves so much that he was able to withstand the hits from Jiren which combated Ultra Instinct Goku:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Hit was also fast enough to dodge these same punches and escape them, the same attacks which kept up with Ultra Instinct Goku:

[spoiler]







[/spoiler]

Later through the fight, Hit was shown to be able to push a stronger Jiren away. Although he does get stomped afterwards, he then somehow blocks these same attacks which stomped the same Hit who was relative to the same Jiren who fought Ultra Instinct Goku:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

That statement from Champa about Kefla's power was directed to Base Kefla (I'm leaning towards BSsj), so Toei (with their atrocious writing) made Kefla to be above hit in every possible aspect.

Kefla > Episode 111 Hit =< Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110

[spoiler][/spoiler]

This utterly breaks your point. Goku got wanked by Toei, just like he was later on from Episode 123 to 127. The fatigued state of Goku's is that he's tired but not that he's weaker at all. According to this he's even stronger.

Later on fatigued Goku in kaioken/king kai fist was able to cause her arm to go numb when in just in regular kaioken/king kai fist(which is around x2 or close) as he says it without the added multiplier.

Just because he didn't? Goku didn't say that he went Kaioken x20 against Jiren, yet it was Kaioken x20. Goku said directly that it'd be bad if he held back:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

When Kefla went BSsj, the crowd was far too surprised more than Goku's Ki (everyone can sense God Ki in the ToP arc) and Hit was also shocked:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

For the Stamina Point, Goku was weakened power wise, They were just worried because Goku could barely hold the SsjB Transformation:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

And SsjB is a form which drains stamina:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Besides, Kefla > Hit breaks your point completely and anything else which is a contradiction.

When he later powers up more she was failing to react to him move and continues to overpower her initially to the point where she struggles to get up while damaged with the crowd worried even Champa whom is aware of her power.

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

Yet Champa originally witnessed Goku going SsjB Kaioken against Jiren and everything. And this frankly proves nothing other than the fact that he could have underestimated Goku going under the point that he's fatigued. Goku's Kamehameha matches that of Kefla's casual blasts (His Kamehameha equated casual blasts from Kefla):

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

This was after being hit by Goku, and she tells him she's far from done, meaning she's still hiding power:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

She originally warned him and told him this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

This throws your point out of the window.

It should be noted that Beerus claimed that in Goku fatigued state he shouldn't utilize SSBKK and that he has only one more shot before he runs out of staimia/ki which explains Kelfa being able to knock him out of the form with a single kick when she got behind him while he was distracted with his last Kamehameha.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Wrong. Beerus's statement only shows that Goku has one more shot to be capable of staying on that transformation but when Kefla attacked him Goku had that form on him:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And Whis concludes that Her Ki is something "incredible" including Beerus based on that kick:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Also, Kefla even states that she dragged the fight purposedly which means she could have defeated Goku way long ago:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku is a literal fodder to Kefla.

Vados being worried about Kefla means nothing, because Marcarita was also worried that Jiren might lose to SsjB Goku:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So Goku is no where near Kefla.

Even SSB Vegeta in episode 122 was able to push Jiren was said to have the strongest ki yet weaker than when fight UI Goku from episode 110. So it's clear even SSB Vegeta is stronger even SSJ2 Kefla yet inferior to 110 UI Goku.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Funny that Vegeta's statement would mean Jiren is stronger than the Kefla which had flirted her power so high even UI Goku Episode 116 is inferior to:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Yet Vegeta hurts the heck out of Jiren, and actually, Jiren. Vegeta stating that Jiren is stronger when he fought Goku could refer to His battle with goku on Episode 122. It makes zero sense to be the one on Episode 110 and is contradictory

Goku fights Jiren far better than he did with him on Episode 109:

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

So not really.

When Kelfa was powering up in SSJ2, Picoolo clearly claim she surpassed his prior level with the Japanese translation suggesting it to be more recent, which implies it being Goku's SSBKK. In the same fight you notice that UI fatigue Goku needed to power up a little to be confident enough to take her on which in prior even incited her to use more power according to Gohan which Picoolo confirms.

Actual Japanese translation of Picoolo's statement, in episode 116:
このパワー…先ほどまでだったら孫を超えてるかもしれん！
このパワー means "This power"
先ほど means "a little time ago"
まで means "until"
だったら means something like "if that's the case"
孫を超えてるかもしれん means "Might surpass Son [Goku]"

Piccolo should not be surprised that she got that powerful as When Kefla went Ssj2, she said she'll power up further into Goku' UI level. His attacks did barely anything to Kefla. Also, All the events in the Tournament of Power are "a little time ago" as the time frame between Ultra Instinct Goku on Episode 110 and 116 is not much at all, and this would make sense better than your downplaying interpretation.

The rest is nothing but trying to make a statement mean something else. The narrator saying the fight is intense means little, since Jiren vs Goku on Episode 110 was intense, but Jiren was heavily holding back.

In conclusion: Kefla is stronger than you think and she's downplayed.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

In the meantime, I'd like to engage in another debate:

In all of your images trying to support this. You missed the part where Beerus clearly stated that Goku's Super Saiyan form was "powered down" from SSJG.

Beerus never directly said his power went down, not even once. In fact if was quite the opposite, his power kept getting higher. And assuming that this nonexistent statement exists, it holds zero candle to all the other proofs and evidences against it which support my point.

I might be wrong though so please show it to me

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

129 summary say that only mastered ultra instinct is a power that surpass a God of destruction, so UI Goku is weaker. 17 power is unclear, because Toei nonsense power scaling, but whatever.

It never said that only mastered ultra instinct Goku surpassed a God Of Destruction, and either way it would go contradictory with everything shown prior to that. If you want to take such statements this way from direct spoilers, then pretty much most ToP arc characters aren't light speed which OBVIOUSLY isn't the case.

[Legion]

129 summary say that only mastered ultra instinct is a power that surpass a God of destruction, so UI Goku is weaker. 17 power is unclear, because Toei nonsense power scaling, but whatever.

It never said that only mastered ultra instinct Goku surpassed a God Of Destruction, and either way it would go contradictory with everything shown prior to that. If you want to take such statements this way from direct spoilers, then pretty much most ToP arc characters aren't light speed which OBVIOUSLY isn't the case.

Ah, don't worry, it will be confirmed soon in the episodes. Beerus is>>any version of Goku except MUI.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Vegeta already beat a God of Destruction and he's only comparable to SSB Kaiokenx20. And any variant of Ultra Instinct Goku is superior to that Vegeta.

So I don't know how people are seriously claiming that Beerus or any God of Destruction is still relevant to the powerscale. They've been old news for a while now.

[Marlowe89]

It never said that only mastered ultra instinct Goku surpassed a God Of Destruction

Then it's pointless, redundant, and utterly nonsensical to have such an assertion included in advertising for the form, which obviously isn't the intention of the writing.

A common pattern I'm noticing from your style of posting and debating is the frequent insertion of disingenuity in the face of any evidence that might conflict with your viewpoint, which really veers more towards the path of intellectual dishonesty rather than a sincere desire to have a rational discussion about the power-scaling in Super. That combined with your general condescending attitude is probably turning a hell of a lot more people off of your beliefs than it's managing to convince, trust me.

[Kenneth La Torre]

UI omen goku while not stated to be above the realm of hakaishin, should still be on hakaishin level, so UI omen goku should give beerus a good fight. Only mastered UI was stated to be above the realm of hakaishin, and possibly a full power jiren, who by the NEP shows that even UI omen is casual for him.

[Legion]

Vegeta already beat a God of Destruction and he's only comparable to SSB Kaiokenx20. And any variant of Ultra Instinct Goku is superior to that Vegeta.

So I don't know how people are seriously claiming that Beerus or any God of Destruction is still relevant to the powerscale. They've been old news for a while now.

The fact that you keep saying this it does not make it true.

Vegeta put everything he had into defeating Toppo who he was just a newborn and inexperienced God. Can't believe that people still believe that Toppo is strong or stronger than Belmod or the other Gods. Toppo can't even use UI, while the other Gods can. The Gods weren't even impressed or scared by Vegeta power.

Vegeta and Toppo are God level? yes. They are strong or stronger than the current Hakaishins? No. Same omen UI Goku.

[Zamasu55]

Vegeta already beat a God of Destruction and he's only comparable to SSB Kaiokenx20. And any variant of Ultra Instinct Goku is superior to that Vegeta.

So I don't know how people are seriously claiming that Beerus or any God of Destruction is still relevant to the powerscale. They've been old news for a while now.

Nice joke.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

People constantly repeating God of Destruction>Jiren & UI Goku doesn't make it true. The idea itself has no merit and there's no reason whatsoever to believe that Beerus is stronger than Goku or Jiren outside of fans wanting him to be. He's irrelevant.

Toppo being a new God of Destruction isn't given any attention. He's stated to be no different than any of the other God of Destruction.

That same Toppo that's no different from any other God of Destruction lost to Vegeta whom is nothing to a suppressed Jiren, but here are people saying that the Gods are stronger than UI Goku and Jiren. For no reason at all.

[Koitsukai]

Do people actually believe this statement: "You kind of ignored the fact that UI Goku on Episode 116 is stronger than UI Goku on Episode 110"?

I mean, UI 110 was taking on Jiren and getting better by the second, could dodge and attack perfectly, while UI 116 could dodge perfectly but couldn't control how to attack properly and had trouble hurting Kefla who was way weaker than Jiren. How could he be stronger when he couldn't get the UI as right as he got it against Jiren? In 110 he had two cards, in 116 just the dodging one.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Actually the true translation about Kefla rivalling Goku's Ki is a supportive to me. It says The Goku who was bathed in the spirit bomb. Which means this is the Goku who was breaking through his shell, which is most likely ultra instinct Goku. Direct Content > arguable interpretation

Again the burden of proof on you and please don't use what I already posted as I can dismiss that. Again you're neglecting the fact that it can be translated differently."元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに" - the most important part of the translation is の, which indicates possession of the Spirit bomb in which Goku was submerged in or alternatively Goku when he was submerged in the Spirit bomb which is what a JLPT 2 person told me which is the 2nd highest degree when learning Japanese in University. Your ignoring the fact that native Japanese people interpreted this as directly compared to the genki so are you implying native Japanese viewers is less than non-natives? Even herms believes that the statement is directly comparing Kefla with the Genki.

https://twitter.com/herms98/status/932063436527112192

You're only relying on a subjective view here, unless you have better translations or could speak Japanese in a JLPT 2 level or above if you aren't a native then you should just concede.

This makes it sound as if what you posted is absolute facts. Funny is that you could have added a lot more, but it just seems to me you're only limited to this. Well, at least you've come at me with this challenge

Yes, because the evidence I'm drawing are factual and are coming from the source material, I'm far aware that the burden of proof is on me at times. Again it's unnecessary to add more scans as I think I already added near a dozen. But again I rather have better quality arguments rather than a quantity of weak or negligible ones.

You need a lot more evidence and correctly interpreted statements than easily arguable arguments that can easily be countered. More evidence equates to more validity, as it increases the chances of your point being correct.

Again I already posted a sufficient amount of evidence from the show. I don't think you realize your arguments are very simple sentences yet you criticize me for have easy to counter arguments, you're relying too much on just scans here. I can simply win an argument with a few credible and disputable evidence, for example I can post 3 feats yet you post 8 statement which are all take out of context with dishonesty. You have a bad habit of bigger arguments> better quality arguments.

I'm not acting, it's just true. The more you provide evidence the better your argument gets solidified, but you're lacking this. So I'll argue against you now on this

No, it's not just about post scans like you're entire post is about, you're going have to logical draw interpretation off statements, it got nothing to do with spamming negligible scans or evidence such as a scan of Kefla kicking Goku or Champa calling Kefla a secret weapons and etc. This is why you're lacking quality in your arguments and focus more on quantity.

that would make Kefla weaker than hit despite Kefla being stated (After hit fights Jiren) that she's the secret weapon for Universe 6:

Being a secret weapon does not correlate to being to most powerful weapon of U6. Vados saw Hit elimination being a painful loss to U6 which puts them all in a bind(defines to problematical situation), so it's evident that Hit was the most important for U6.




[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

This is also stated by Champa, confirming that Kefla was the trump card:

Champa also states that Kefla is Universe 6's trump card:

I don't think you know the definition of a trump card. Here's what google dictionary implies:

"a valuable resource that may be used, especially as a surprise, in order to gain an advantage"

In other words a trump card got nothing to with being to most important or valuable resource but rather a formidable one that is used as a surprise. Kefla for example was used as a last resort which was a surprise and was considered valuable to U6 at the same time just like Hit was. Didn't Hit call his time cage a trump card too which might mess your logic there.

If you look up other dictionaries on the internet they all define "trump card" in a similar way:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/trump-card


https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... trump-card

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dic ... trump-card

Surprisingly, Hit improves so much that he was able to withstand the hits from Jiren which combated Ultra Instinct Goku:


Hit was also fast enough to dodge these same punches and escape them, the same attacks which kept up with Ultra Instinct Goku:


Later through the fight, Hit was shown to be able to push a stronger Jiren away. Although he does get stomped afterwards, he then somehow blocks these same attacks which stomped the same Hit who was relative to the same Jiren who fought Ultra Instinct Goku:

You're basically just reinforcing my prior points, Hit able to push Jiren that was putting the same effort against 110 UI Goku where as Kefla was said to be inferior to Jiren more supressed when fighting UI Goku from 110. So it obvious that Hit has better feats than Kefla which you pretty much prove yourself.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

That statement from Champa about Kefla's power was directed to Base Kefla (I'm leaning towards BSsj), so Toei (with their atrocious writing) made Kefla to be above hit in every possible aspect.

Kefla > Episode 111 Hit =< Ultra Instinct Goku Episode 110

No, Champa and Vados was talking about SSJ Kefla as this statement literally came after she transformed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFuS1BQv5s

This utterly breaks your point. Goku got wanked by Toei, just like he was later on from Episode 123 to 127. The fatigued state of Goku's is that he's tired but not that he's weaker at all. According to this he's even stronger.

Again, all the spectators have being implying that Goku was fatigue which has been affected his performance. Being fatigue does correlate to weaker power even Vados thinks SSB Goku if at full power may be too much for Kefla which implies Goku is lacking in power and the rest of his ki abilities . In the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume Toriyama says ki is made of genki(energy), yuuki(bravery), and shouki(ones right mind). Genki is the main pull away from this paragraph. Ki is your energy, so Ki and stamina are practically the same thing.

Why did Goku become tired in the original Dragon Ball after using the Kamehameha too many times?

Why was Goku incredibly tired after the Instant Transmission Kamehameha wave on Cell?

As for lower stamina equaling weaker attacks, just look at real life, if you’re extremely tired you run slower and punch weaker. As shown in the RoF arc when Golden Freeza was exhausted from Ki drain from the Golden form he tries to punch Goku in the face but Goku simply tanks it with no problem.

https://youtu.be/K8YSw8J5rAg?t=628

Just because he didn't? Goku didn't say that he went Kaioken x20 against Jiren, yet it was Kaioken x20. Goku said directly that it'd be bad if he held back:

Anytime Goku just says Kaioken(like he did in the fight with kelfa), he's just using normal Kaioken. Even in the battle with Hit, he specifically explains this as after just saying "kaioken" and using the technique, he explains he starts off doubling his abilities. Does Goku need to say the kaioken multiplier to let us know which level of multiplication he's using? no
But when he says kaioken, it's expected for him to also say x10 or x20 if not at all hence being just normal kaioken.

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

When Kefla went BSsj, the crowd was far too surprised more than Goku's Ki (everyone can sense God Ki in the ToP arc) and Hit was also shocked:

This only telling us Kefla is strong vaguely.

For the Stamina Point, Goku was weakened power wise, They were just worried because Goku could barely hold the SsjB Transformation:

Where does it imply this? All what's happening in the context is that the crowd is surprised Goku has this amount of stamina left. I don't know how you can conclude that they were worried that he couldn't stabilize the form without much context. You're just contradicting your own points here, if you really think the crowd was concern about SSB being drain then it's more reason to doubt Goku in his state could go Kaioken x20 or close.

And SsjB is a form which drains stamina:

I don't see what you're trying to dismiss here, but it's even worse when Goku was already in a fatigue state to begin with.

Besides, Kefla > Hit breaks your point completely and anything else which is a contradiction.

No it's not if anything your points are, how could Hit put up a fight against Jiren that rivalled UI 110 Goku yet being inferior to Kefla that is weaker than Jiren that was more supressed. You entire argument here relies on the "trump card" statement which is take out of context.

Yet Champa originally witnessed Goku going SsjB Kaioken against Jiren and everything. And this frankly proves nothing other than the fact that he could have underestimated Goku going under the point that he's fatigued. Goku's Kamehameha matches that of Kefla's casual blasts (His Kamehameha equated casual blasts from Kefla):

Again Goku was fatigue there's no reason to believe he performance was better even Beerus in the same time claimed that it was not a good idea Goku in his fatigue state using kaioken. Why would Champa be underestimating Goku, he's literally witnessing him overpowering Kefla in front of him, I don't think you understand the context of what's happening. As for Goku's kamekameka they literally went through the ki blast and overpowered it.

This was after being hit by Goku, and she tells him she's far from done, meaning she's still hiding power:

Again you're taking things too out of context. Kefla just says she's far from done vaguely, not that she held more power back or anything related but then again she has a ego so statements could be exaggerated. With later further context Whis explains that Kefla's saiyan blood is what's driving her to continue fighting as that's what was meant when she was far from done. This also implies Kefla is already at her limit in power if she only has her will power or saiyan instincts left.

She originally warned him and told him this:

This was early when she fought him in blue. She starts using her full effort in SSJ later.

Wrong. Beerus's statement only shows that Goku has one more shot to be capable of staying on that transformation but when Kefla attacked him Goku had that form on him:

This is not what Beerus meant nor what he clearly says, what he meant is that Goku had one more shot until his stamina get's affected much more. Goku when fighting Hit in the U6 arc was beginning to get fatigue and knew he would lose to hit at that point even when still in his form, the same implies to here. You didn't even need to post Kefla kicking Goku, I'm starting to realize that your entire tactic here is too post so much scans to create too much space for me to respond. But don't worry excluding your scans your arguments are hardly elaborative here.

And Whis concludes that Her Ki is something "incredible" including Beerus based on that kick:

None of them refers to Kefla's kick but rather her ki which makes it evident that the kick doesn't rival the spirit bomb or UI Goku in anyway. They're both talking about her overall ki and abilities with it that began to wore and tear Goku into a low state. Even that narrator claims it was a overall battle that triggered the form not the kick.

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Also, Kefla even states that she dragged the fight purposedly which means she could have defeated Goku way long ago:

She doesn't say she purposely dragged that fight, she just wanted it to be longer but wasn't a possibility since Goku was fatigue and couldn't keep up in for longer period so she basically out tried him rather than having the power in SSJ to beat him. Just because she wanted to fight him more doesn't mean she was holding back for the purpose of dragging out the fight, you are using your headcanon to conclude that. It was already implied that was suing full efforts when being overpowered by SSBKK Goku due to her calling Goku a worthy opponent, the crowd being worried, Whis claim her saiyan drive is the only thng that kept her fighting, Goku inflicting great pain and damage on her and being too fast for her to react.

Vados being worried about Kefla means nothing, because Marcarita was also worried that Jiren might lose to SsjB Goku:

I don't know how you could conclude to that as all she said is that they can't be too cautious and somehow you interpreted this as being SSB may be too much for Jiren. You're manipulating context here. The difference is that Vados already saw Kefla in action while Marcarita hardly saw a full power Goku in action (he held back a few times prior in blue).

Funny that Vegeta's statement would mean Jiren is stronger than the Kefla which had flirted her power so high even UI Goku Episode 116 is inferior to:

There's multiple things to address here. Beside the fact that Ui Goku was already fatigue, his stamina got worse as he was panting after hitting Kefla a bunch of times. It was stated at the same time he had to finish it with a kamekameka hence why he was vulnerable. It should be noted she was using all of her power while bloodlusted. It's consistent that characters when in the same state can exceed their limits such as Vegeta final flash against Jiren or Cell, if not when he was matching Goku's kamekameka with x3 kaioken with his galick gun or like when Goku overpowered fused Zamasu ki attack. It's doesn't take much power to harm someone much stronger as Krillin has harmed Frezia with the destructo disk or Vegeta big bang harming Cell when facing kid Gohan in a kamekameka clash.

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Yet Vegeta hurts the heck out of Jiren, and actually, Jiren. Vegeta stating that Jiren is stronger when he fought Goku could refer to His battle with goku on Episode 122. It makes zero sense to be the one on Episode 110 and is contradictory

Goku fights Jiren far better than he did with him on Episode 109:

Your point is the contraction here, nowhere it was implied that Jiren changed the amount of effort when he just fought Goku earlier, why would he use more power against Goku in SSB than Vegeta, it makes less sense. That fact Vegeat did better than 122 Goku proves Jiren would need to put in more effort. Even Belmod was worried, why would he be worried if Jiren was able to put in more effort against SSB Goku. Vegeta calls out that Jiren has the strongest Ki so are you implying SSB Goku now surpasses 110 Goku, SSJ2 Kefla, fused Zamasu? I mean Goku even later in 123 could not breach Jiren barrier like Vegeta did so it's clear that Jiren would need to put more effort against Vegeta. It happened to early to be considering a past tense if you ask me.

Piccolo should not be surprised that she got that powerful as When Kefla went Ssj2, she said she'll power up further into Goku' UI level. His attacks did barely anything to Kefla. Also, All the events in the Tournament of Power are "a little time ago" as the time frame between Ultra Instinct Goku on Episode 110 and 116 is not much at all, and this would make sense better than your downplaying interpretation.

Again Picoolo claimed that she surpassed Goku earlier level which was SSBKK not UI, did you neglect the translations I provided, fatigue Goku at a power cap was igniting her according to Gohan so it's evident that she's not UI level. The time frame from episode 110 was 12 minutes while the time frame of episode 115 was 2 minutes, it make sense that it was SSBKK which was the latter due to how earlier it was. UI Goku attacks were overpowering Kefla, while I could argue Kefla is a known egoist after mocking Goku's attacks he later claims he's getting the hang of this in which he powers up by igniting his aura. When overpowering he she starts receiving noticeable damage while claiming "impossible" when grasping her stomach in pain and struggling to get up, so her expectations were exceeded.


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The rest is nothing but trying to make a statement mean something else. The narrator saying the fight is intense means little, since Jiren vs Goku on Episode 110 was intense, but Jiren was heavily holding back.

That's not what I'm implying but it doesn't make you innocent in the fact you try making vague statements mean something too when added headcanon context. The narrtor claims the overall extreme battle triggered Goku form it's got nothing with it being intense or not. The narrtor is clearly implying what is triggering the form which is agian the battle entirely not a kick.