DB Super Exciting Guide: Story

[SSj_Rambo]

So does Shueisha really have images of all of the panels of the Dragonball manga saved as computer files? Or do they actually scan each of these images just for these guides?

[Chuquita]

The Goku in the Room of Spirit and Time looks new to me; is he from a chapter title page that never got published in the Viz versions?

It's from the title page for chapter 387 (DBZ 193; really muscular Trunks fails to hit Cell). It wasn't included in the tankoubon release, just the kanzenban, and since Viz's GNs follow the tankoubon they don't include it either.

Thank you so much!

I wonder why some of the title pages were excluded from the tankoubon.

[Bussani]

I love how Goku's stats go up so high that they expand outside the circle itself.

Priceless in the very best way. X3

Agreed.

[Kingdom Heartless]

You know, with the whole SSJ3 = SSJ2 x 4 thing, it makes the Vegeta situation more painful.

Vegeta: With my power up from Babidi, I am finally as strong as Kakarrot!!!

Goku: Actually, if I do this, I'm the equivilant of freaking four of you.

Vegeta: .....but.......no, you ca-........aw, hamburgers!

[Bussani]

You know, with the whole SSJ3 = SSJ2 x 4 thing, it makes the Vegeta situation more painful.

Vegeta: With my power up from Babidi, I am finally as strong as Kakarrot!!!

Goku: Actually, if I do this, I'm the equivilant of freaking four of you.

Yeah. If you think about it, it also shows how far Vegeta was out of his league trying to take on Buu.

Edit:

It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit. Toriyama mentioned there being limits to how much training your muscles could do and needing ki to overcome that limit in the book's interview.

Is there any more detail you can give about this part, Herms?

[Kingdom Heartless]

You know, with the whole SSJ3 = SSJ2 x 4 thing, it makes the Vegeta situation more painful.

Vegeta: With my power up from Babidi, I am finally as strong as Kakarrot!!!

Goku: Actually, if I do this, I'm the equivilant of freaking four of you.

Yeah. If you think about it, it also shows how far Vegeta was out of his league trying to take on Buu.

With Gohan's power up, he officially became the Radditz of the adult Saiya-jin.

[JulieYBM]

So then, uh...might I ask what it describes about Son's training in the Afterlife for the 25th? I know that the weights are meant to make it more difficult, but still...

[Bussani]

So then, uh...might I ask what it describes about Son's training in the Afterlife for the 25th? I know that the weights are meant to make it more difficult, but still...

From what we saw it was just weight training with bukujutsu. The guide also says he did mental/image training to raise his ki as well. Or did you already know this much?

[JulieYBM]

So then, uh...might I ask what it describes about Son's training in the Afterlife for the 25th? I know that the weights are meant to make it more difficult, but still...

From what we saw it was just weight training with bukujutsu. The guide also says he did mental/image training to raise his ki as well. Or did you already know this much?

I had forgotten the latter about the mental image training.

I do wonder how that raises ki, however.


I just noticed how worthless my 'Son Gokû's training/styles guide' is now...

[Bussani]

So then, uh...might I ask what it describes about Son's training in the Afterlife for the 25th? I know that the weights are meant to make it more difficult, but still...

From what we saw it was just weight training with bukujutsu. The guide also says he did mental/image training to raise his ki as well. Or did you already know this much?

I had forgotten the latter about the mental image training.

I do wonder how that raises ki, however.


I just noticed how worthless my 'Son Gokû's training/styles guide' is now...

Meditation to draw out more ki, I suppose. Ki is spiritual energy, mind power if you will.

Herms wrote that Toriyama said in the interview that it's necessary because muscle training can only get you so far. What I'm wondering is if that means you need more ki to continue training your muscles beyond their limits, or whether all strength increases are just from drawing out more ki after a certain point. I'd like to see exactly how he worded it, but knowing Toriyama and these guides it'll leave things vague.

[Herms]

Is there any more detail you can give about this part, Herms?

I actually already translated that part of the interview over on the MFG forums. Guess I forgot to post it here.

What’s the secret of winning in battle?
When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character"] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

Note 11: Genki and yuuki, shouki
The word “energy” [genki; also “health”, “vigor”, etc] is well known, but if you had an illness [byouki], would you not have energy? That’s difficult to answer. There are some people who have a healthy body but no energy, but there are also some people who are full of energy even when ill. What’s more, even with people who have about the same amount of power, there are some who, when attacked by Piccolo Daimao for instance, will stand firm and tough it out, while others will run away trembling in fear. If you think this way, you might understand how different kinds of “ki” are very important in battle. In the world of Chinese kenpo disciplines such as Tai Chi, much importance is placed on the training and control of ki.

Although in “DragonBall” the wizard Babidi had invented machines that measured and extracted “ki”, modern science is unable to measure “ki” or store it anywhere. However, there are times when people support you, and give you energy [genki] and courage [yuuki]. Though it can’t be seen, what is present then is “ki”.

[Saiyan-Professor]

You know, with the whole SSJ3 = SSJ2 x 4 thing, it makes the Vegeta situation more painful.

Vegeta: With my power up from Babidi, I am finally as strong as Kakarrot!!!

Goku: Actually, if I do this, I'm the equivilant of freaking four of you.

Vegeta: .....but.......no, you ca-........aw, hamburgers!

The above sums up the reason why I argue that Vegeta got screwed royally by Toriyama.

On another note, Herms does the portion on Vegeta say anything significant that you did not say in one of the previous pages of this thread?

[JulieYBM]

We don't know if he had reached Super Saiyan 3 by the time of the last time skip, now do we?

Either way, not like it matters. Vegeta had finally reconciled his hate for Son Gokû.

[Saiyan-Professor]

We don't know if he had reached Super Saiyan 3 by the time of the last time skip, now do we?

Either way, not like it matters. Vegeta had finally reconciled his hate for Son Gokû.

It is not about him reconciling anything, the fact remains that Vegeta and the other Z-Senshi was screwed.

[JulieYBM]

We don't know if he had reached Super Saiyan 3 by the time of the last time skip, now do we?

Either way, not like it matters. Vegeta had finally reconciled his hate for Son Gokû.

It is not about him reconciling anything, the fact remains that Vegeta and the other Z-Senshi was screwed.

I think it's time to accept the fact Son Gokû is stronger because he is the main character, not to mention it was the end of the series and it didn't matter.

Espicially 14 years after.

[Saiyan-Professor]

We don't know if he had reached Super Saiyan 3 by the time of the last time skip, now do we?

Either way, not like it matters. Vegeta had finally reconciled his hate for Son Gokû.

It is not about him reconciling anything, the fact remains that Vegeta and the other Z-Senshi was screwed.

I think it's time to accept the fact Son Gokû is stronger because he is the main character, not to mention it was the end of the series and it didn't matter.

Espicially 14 years after.

Whatever, that is how I feel but you win and I am not going to argue with you over this any longer.

[Dayspring]

We don't know if he had reached Super Saiyan 3 by the time of the last time skip, now do we?

Either way, not like it matters. Vegeta had finally reconciled his hate for Son Gokû.

It is not about him reconciling anything, the fact remains that Vegeta and the other Z-Senshi was screwed.

I wouldn't say Vegeta got screwed, so much as Goku cheated. His afterlife training resulted in his gap, while his gap is the exact reason he's able to go SSJ3.

I agree that any non-Saiyan got the royal bum's rush, though. Even Piccolo got pushed to the back burner.

[Bussani]

I actually already translated that part of the interview over on the MFG forums. Guess I forgot to post it here.

What’s the secret of winning in battle?
When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character"] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

Note 11: Genki and yuuki, shouki
The word “energy” [genki; also “health”, “vigor”, etc] is well known, but if you had an illness [byouki], would you not have energy? That’s difficult to answer. There are some people who have a healthy body but no energy, but there are also some people who are full of energy even when ill. What’s more, even with people who have about the same amount of power, there are some who, when attacked by Piccolo Daimao for instance, will stand firm and tough it out, while others will run away trembling in fear. If you think this way, you might understand how different kinds of “ki” are very important in battle. In the world of Chinese kenpo disciplines such as Tai Chi, much importance is placed on the training and control of ki.

Although in “DragonBall” the wizard Babidi had invented machines that measured and extracted “ki”, modern science is unable to measure “ki” or store it anywhere. However, there are times when people support you, and give you energy [genki] and courage [yuuki]. Though it can’t be seen, what is present then is “ki”.

Thanks Herms, you're the man!

The first part sounded familiar actually, I wonder if I already had seen it around here somewhere?

The different kinds of ki thing is very interesting. It just goes to show what the characters and some of us have always said; you can't reduce them all to numbers.

It's still vague (in that oh so Japanese way that Mike always mentions) but it does sound like physical strength alone stops growing after a certain point, doesn't it? I've been thinking about it and look at Goku's development; from the start of Dragon Ball we see him growing in age and muscle. He goes from being a round little midget to the tough looking boy who fights Daimao, and then to the young man who fights Jr (he still looked quite skinny here and at the start of Z, though still muscular). After that his body changes slightly after his training with Kaio-sama. The final change I think we see is from his gravity training on the way to Namek. After this point we don't see his body change any more; his muscles reach that point and, apart from transformations (which obviously take over at this point), he stays pretty much the same for the rest of the series.

So what does everyone think? After that point is physical training just another way to draw out ki, rather than increase your physical strength alone further? Or is there another way of interpreting it?

[Dayspring]

I actually already translated that part of the interview over on the MFG forums. Guess I forgot to post it here.

What’s the secret of winning in battle?
When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character"] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.

Note 11: Genki and yuuki, shouki
The word “energy” [genki; also “health”, “vigor”, etc] is well known, but if you had an illness [byouki], would you not have energy? That’s difficult to answer. There are some people who have a healthy body but no energy, but there are also some people who are full of energy even when ill. What’s more, even with people who have about the same amount of power, there are some who, when attacked by Piccolo Daimao for instance, will stand firm and tough it out, while others will run away trembling in fear. If you think this way, you might understand how different kinds of “ki” are very important in battle. In the world of Chinese kenpo disciplines such as Tai Chi, much importance is placed on the training and control of ki.

Although in “DragonBall” the wizard Babidi had invented machines that measured and extracted “ki”, modern science is unable to measure “ki” or store it anywhere. However, there are times when people support you, and give you energy [genki] and courage [yuuki]. Though it can’t be seen, what is present then is “ki”.

Thanks Herms, you're the man!

The first part sounded familiar actually, I wonder if I already had seen it around here somewhere?

The different kinds of ki thing is very interesting. It just goes to show what the characters and some of us have always said; you can't reduce them all to numbers.

It's still vague (in that oh so Japanese way that Mike always mentions) but it does sound like physical strength alone stops growing after a certain point, doesn't it? I've been thinking about it and look at Goku's development; from the start of Dragon Ball we see him growing in age and muscle. He goes from being a round little midget to the tough looking boy who fights Daimao, and then to the young man who fights Jr (he still looked quite skinny here and at the start of Z, though still muscular). After that his body changes slightly after his training with Kaio-sama. The final change I think we see is from his gravity training on the way to Namek. After this point we don't see his body change any more; his muscles reach that point and, apart from transformations (which obviously take over at this point), he stays pretty much the same for the rest of the series.

So what does everyone think? After that point is physical training just another way to draw out ki, rather than increase your physical strength alone further? Or is there another way of interpreting it?

I completely agree. It even works with the explanation on how Vegeta went SSJ2 (muscles reached their limit). It can also arguably explain the USSJ levels, as well as why Gotenks can go SSJ3 instead of SSJ2.

SSJ: Extreme rage once you've exceeded your potential.
USSJ: Pump all your shouki into your (SSJ) muscle strength.
USSJ2: Pump all your shouki and genki into your (SSJ) muscle strength.
SSJ2: When your muscles reach their limits, provided you can go SSJ.
SSJ3: Release all your genki, yuuki, and shouki into your SSJ stage.

The reason Gotenks could bypass SSJ2 is because Goten and Trunks still hadn't reached their limits in regards to muscle strength.

[Saiyan-Professor]

In the scene in the manga and anime when Vegeta was standing on the rock for three days during the Android Saga, was that image training? When Kakarrot recovered from the virus and came to where Vegeta and Trunks was he said that Vegeta was a genius because he was seeing beyond the Super Saiyan. Vegeta did not really know if going beyond that transformation was even possible. Nevertheless, do you think that he was increasing his Ki those 3 days in preparation to attempt to go beyond the Super Saiyan?