Need everyone's opinions on arc divisions of the series

[CaBrPi]

I pretty much just consider it going like this:

1. Pilaf arc
2. 21st Tenkaichi Budokai arc
-a. Kame-sen'nin's Training sub-arc
-b. 21st Tenkaichi Budokai sub-arc
3. Red Ribbon Army arc
-a. Red Ribbon Army sub-arc
-b. Baba Uranai sub-arc
4. 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai arc
-a. Solo Training filler sub-arc
-b. 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai sub-arc
5. Piccolo Daimao arc
6. 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc
-a. Kami's Training filler sub-arc
-b. 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai sub-arc
-c. Wedding Dress filler sub-arc
7. Saiyan arc
-a. Raditz sub-arc
-b. One Year Training Session filler sub-arc
-c. Saiyan sub-arc
8. Freeza arc
-a. Pre-Namek filler sub-arc
-b. Namek sub-arc
-c. Ginyu Force sub-arc
-d. Freeza sub-arc
9. Garlic, Jr. filler arc
10. Artificial Humans arc
-a. Trunks sub-arc
-b. Artificial Humans sub-arc
-c. Cell sub-arc
-d. Cell Games sub-arc
11. Majin Boo arc
-a. Anoyoichi Budokai filler sub-arc
-b. Great Saiyaman sub-arc
-c. Tenkaichi Budokai sub-arc
-d. Majin Boo sub-arc

Including GT, it would be:

12. Black Star/Ultimate Dragon Ball arc
13. Baby arc
14. Super 17 arc
15. Evil Dragons arc

Of course, quite a few of the arcs lead directly into the next, such as 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai to Piccolo Daimao, Saiyan to Freeza to Artificial Humans, etc.

[DemonRin]

Mine would be:

1. Pilaf Arc
2. 21st Tenkaichi Bukokai Arc
3. Red Ribbon Army Arc.
4. Uranai Baba arc
5. 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc
6. Piccolo Daimao Arc
7. 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc
8. Saiyan Arc
9. Freeza Arc (Can also be called "Namek" arc if you so choose)
9.1. Garlic Jr. Arc (Filler)
10. Cyborg Arc (Or "Artificial Human", or "Cell", just as long as it's not "Android", Blech)
10.1. Anoyoichi Budokai Arc. (Filler)
11. Majin Boo Arc

11.1. Black-Star Dragon Ball arc (Filler)
11.2 Baby Arc (Filler)
11.3 Hellfighter 17 Arc (Filler)
11.4 Evil Dragons Arc (Filler)

[DBZ Mick]

Pilaf Arc
21st Tenkaichi Budoukai Arc
Red Ribbon Arc
22nd Tenkaichi Budoukai Arc
Piccolo Daimao Arc
23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai Arc

Saiyan Arc
Freeza Arc
Cell Arc
Buu Arc



None of that "Semi-Perfect Cell arc", "Fusion arc", "Kid Buu arc" bullshit.

I also agree with this except I'd add in..

*Fortuneteller Baba arc
*Namek arc

[Android 50]

For me its always been,

Pilaf arc
21st budokai arc
Red ribbon army arc
Fortuneteller baba arc
22nd budokai arc
Piccolo Daimao arc
23rd budokai arc
Saiyan arc
Freeza arc
Android arc
Cell arc
Saiyaman arc
Buu arc (starts the moment kaioshin exposes everything leaving the budokai and first mentioning the name majin buu.)

GT
Blackstar Balls arc
Baby arc
Super 17 arc
Evil Shenron arc

[Pokewhiz7]

(Or "Artificial Human", or "Cell", just as long as it's not "Android", Blech))

What's wrong with Android?

[jjgp1112]

(Or "Artificial Human", or "Cell", just as long as it's not "Android", Blech))

What's wrong with Android?

Yeah, it's just as incorrect as any of the Japanese terminology used in the show for them.

[songohan619]

Dragonball
Dragonball Z
Dragonball GT

[DemonRin]

(Or "Artificial Human", or "Cell", just as long as it's not "Android", Blech))

What's wrong with Android?

It's because most people. apparently including FUNimation, don't know the difference between an Android and a Cyborg, and therefore mistranslated it.

This is an Android:


This is a Cyborg:


The difference being: the first one is 100% robot, was one from the beginning. The 2nd one is more robot than human, but started out as a human and still retains some human parts and his original conscious mind.
It is known that 17 and 18 are human beings who were cybernetically enhanced to become what they are. Compounded bt the fact that 18 was capable of giving birth. Even Gero is a cyborg because even tho he is almost 100% robot, he started as a human and still retains his organic human brain.
16 and 19 are the only confirmed "Androids" in the series. (Barring Movie 13 as it's non-canon)

This is just another example in the very long list of things FUNimation screwed up in their dub that we're unfortunately stuck with now. "Jinzouningen" or "Artificial Human" is kind of a catch-all term, so it's not incorrect to call anyone that in Japanese.

So, to recap.

These:

Are Cyborgs.

And this:

is an Android.

[Cipher]

This is just another example in the very long list of things FUNimation screwed up in their dub that we're unfortunately stuck with now. "Jinzouningen" or "Artificial Human" is kind of a catch-all term, so it's not incorrect to call anyone that in Japanese.

Ug, not to get into this again, but ... it's not really a catch-all term, is it? Nor is it a mistranslation on FUNimation's part. It's pretty much 1:1. It's almost always used to refer to what we'd call "androids." They use "cyborg" as a loan word when they want to use "cyborg."

"Jinzouningen" literally means "man-made human." That's just as off-base as anything for No. 17 and 18. So if you're not going to use a different term for each individual creation (which would really screw up the whole numbering system), you're looking at an inaccurate term in both Japanese and English. Might as well go with the one that isn't awkward.

Not that I have a problem with anyone using "Artificial Human." If the transliteration is just vague enough to work for you, by all means, use it.

But whatever the case, the blame really shouldn't be on FUNimation. It should be on Toriyama for just not giving a fuck.

[DemonRin]

The Japanese Wikipedia entry for "Jinzouningen".
Look at the 2nd section.
it says Androids and Cyborgs.

And clearly defines them both within the section. Roughly the same way I did. (Tho more in-depth)
It even cites Robocop as an example of a Cyborg.

[jjgp1112]

FUNimation's going by the literal definition, not how the term is culturally described in Japan. As Cipher said, in English it means Man-Made Human, which is what an Android is. So while within the context of Japanese culture, it probably isn't all that big of a deal to describe them ALL as "Jinzouningen," in order for that to work in English, you'd have to refer to them by different categories (17, 18, 20 = Cyborgs, 16 & 19 = Androids) and that would make things complicated and throw off the numbering system. You have to pretty much go by a coin toss of whether to use Cyborg or Android. Either one is incorrect for a certain set of them. So FUNi went with the English approximation of the Japanese word.

[Cipher]

The Japanese Wikipedia entry for "Jinzouningen".
Look at the 2nd section.
it says Androids and Cyborgs.

And clearly defines them both within the section. Roughly the same way I did. (Tho more in-depth)
It even cites Robocop as an example of a Cyborg.

It defines them both, but does it ever actually include "cyborg" as a subcategory of "jinzouningen?"

I'm not going to pretend I know more, or even an equivalent amount of Japanese compared to you. I had to fill in a lot of the holes in my vocabulary and kanji-reading with online translators as I was poking through the pages just now, so I could easily have missed something.

But--

It looks like, while the "jinzouningen" entry does spend some time defining and describing the differences between androids and cyborgs, it never includes cyborgs as part of that group. The top of the page specifies "jinzouningen" as robots including androids, gynoids (shudder) and "bioroids" (like Cell), all three of which are entirely man-made. It then has the "Andoids, Cyborgs" section, which talks about what each one is, provides Robocop as an example of a cyborg, and even talks a little bit about how Japanese sci-fi like Cyborg 009 and Ghost in the Shell has tended to blend the two terms together. But all this does is create a distinction between "cyborgs" and the three types of robots listed at the top of the page. Nowhere does it include "cyborgs" as part of "jinzouningen." And from that last paragraph about the phrases "android" and "cyborg" being merged willy-nilly in Japanese fiction, it appears Dragon Ball may just be following suit.

So then I jumped over to the Dragon Ball-specific entry on "jinzouningen."

It specifies that while, by definition, Dragon Ball's "jinzouningen" include androids, cyborgs and bioroids, subtitles outside Japan have tended to just use the term "androids." It doesn't say anything outside of that, nor does it really specify whether or not "jinzouningen" would normally encompass all of those terms.

Finally, I looked at the actual entry for "cyborg." I didn't actually read it, but I did a cntrl F for "人造人間," and the only place the phrase exists on the page is in the other recommendations. It's nowhere in the definition itself, which you'd think it would be if cyborgs normally fell under that umbrella.

That, and I've only ever heard of "jinzouningen" basically being a 1:1 phrase for "androids" and other wholly artificial robots. Which, you know, makes sense, because "man-made/artificial" definitely isn't the same thing as "man-slightly altered."

So, from what I gather (correct me if I'm wrong):

1. By definition, cyborgs probably aren't "jinzouningen," but Japanese fiction conflates all the terms like crazy anyway.
2. Toriyama really doesn't care about conflating terms.
3. FUNimation picked the term which fits the most frequent use of "jinzouningen" in Japanese culture (that being entirely man-made robots) and which best fits the transliteration of "artificial/man-made human" (which cyborgs aren't).

So while everybody's wrong and nobody wins because there isn't really a good catch-all word for "androids" and "cyborgs" in either language, FUNimation probably made the most logical choice. They're really just translating a mistake made by Toriyama in the first place.

[Kaboom]

"Android" is every bit as much of a blanket term as "jinzoningen," and is perfectly acceptable as an English translation or substitute.

[Fox666]

It is not just FUNimation. Keep in mind that the term "Android" as a translation for "Jinzoningen" is also used in the Daizenshuu. Even if it is not accurate for the Dragon Ball story, it is still an official translation of it.

[KakaR0T]

Dragonball:
Pilaf Arc
21st Tenkaichi Budokai Arc
Red Ribbon Army Arc
Uranai Baba Arc
22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc
Piccolo Arc
23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc (or Piccolo Jr.)

Dragonball Z:
Saiyan Arc
Freeza Arc (or Namek Arc)
Cell Arc
Boo Arc

Dragonball GT:
Blackstar Dragonball Arc
Super Android 17 Arc
Evil/Shadow Dragon Arc

[the_abberration]

Here's the breakdown, I currently use (for now):

DB: Original DB DVD Sets
Goku Saga (1- 13)
Tournament Saga (14 – 28)
Red Ribbon Army Saga (29 – 45)
General Blue Saga (46 – 57)
Commander Red Saga (58 – 67)
Fortune Teller Baba Saga (68 – 83)
Tienshinhan Saga (84 – 101)
King Piccolo Saga (102 – 122)
Piccolo Jr. Saga (123 – 153)

DBZ: Perfect Guide Saga Breakdown (American Dragon Box)
Vegeta Saga (1 – 35)
Namek Saga (36 – 74)
Freeza Saga (75 – 107)
Garlic Junior Saga (108 – 117)
Artificial Humans Saga (118 – 147)
Cell Saga (148 – 194)
Anoyoichi Saga (195 – 199)
High School Saga (200 – 209)
Majin Boo Saga (210 – 250)
Boo Saga (251 – 291)

Dragonball GT
Black Star Dragon Ball Saga (1 – 16)
Baby Saga (17 – 40)
Super #17 Saga (41 – 47)
Shadow Dragons Saga (48 – 64)

[Herms]

The Japanese Wikipedia entry for "Jinzouningen".
Look at the 2nd section.
it says Androids and Cyborgs.

And clearly defines them both within the section. Roughly the same way I did. (Tho more in-depth)
It even cites Robocop as an example of a Cyborg.

It says that cyborgs are kaizou-ningen, humans who have a part of their body made mechanical, and are distinct from jinzou-ningen, who are made completely from scratch. So no, the article does not support you assertion that "cyborg" is included under the term jinzou-ningen. It does however mention works such as Ghost in the Shell that blur the line between cyborgs and androids.

The Japanese Wikipedia page on No.18 has a helpful passage:

海外でも、「Cyborg 18」ではなく直訳し「Android 18」とされていることが多いが、人間ベースである以上、正確には人造人間ではなく改造人間である

Even overseas, rather than "Cyborg 18" [her name] is often directly translated as "Android 18", but since she is human-based, technically she is not a jinzou-ningen but a kaizou-ningen

So a) jinzou-ningen itself is not the correct term for No.18 b) jinzou-ningen is "directly translated" as "android" c) the use of this direct translation means that "even overseas" she has an incorrect name.

In short, Toriyama goofed, not Funi.

[Perfect]

Dragon Ball
Pilaf; Hunt for the Dragon Balls
21st Tenkaichi Budokai
Red Ribbon Army
22nd Tenkaichi Budokai
Piccolo Daimao
23rd Tenkaichi Budokai

Dragon Ball Z
Saiyan
Freeza
Cell
Majin Buu

[Rukura]

As far as arc divisions, aren't the perfect guides from the Dragon Boxes pretty much the way to go?

Oh, by the way,

DB: Original DB DVD Sets
Goku Saga (1- 13)

I've seen the term "Goku saga" turn up more than once, but...why do people give the main character's name to a "saga"? Wouldn't "Goku saga" include...uhm...everything but Garlic Jr and Great Saiyaman? Or is that was it's called in the Dragon Box?

DBZ: Perfect Guide Saga Breakdown (American Dragon Box)
Vegeta Saga (1 – 35)

Saiyan. It's only mistakenly referenced as "Vegeta saga" once. (that I've noticed, but a mistake none the less)

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I've seen the term "Goku saga" turn up more than once, but...why do people give the main character's name to a "saga"? Wouldn't "Goku saga" include...uhm...everything but Garlic Jr and Great Saiyaman? Or is that was it's called in the Dragon Box?

The Trimark/Kidmark release of those first 13 episodes and the Madman release in Austrailia were marketed under the "Saga of Goku" name. Why? Dunno...