Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW references

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Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW references

Post by Herms » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:09 pm

----Notice:This old thread is part of my series of guides. To avoid necro-posting, please post any comments you have in the sticky thread for my guides, rather than here. Thanks!----

Most fans are well aware of how DB started off as a retelling of the ancient Chinese fantasy novel/allegory Journey to the West, which tells the story of an oddball group of pilgrims travelling from China to India to obtain sacred Buddhist scriptures. Like many of DB’s distinguishing features, this resulted from Toriyama’s laziness: in Daizenshuu 2, he says he came up with the idea of a JttW retelling because he figured that it would be easy to write the series if he had that story as a basis. Longtime fans are all probably familiar with most of the major similarities between the two stories. DB’s Son Goku is based on Sun Wukong, the “Handsome Monkey King” who is more or less the hero of JttW (Son Gokuu is the Japanese reading of Wukong’s name). Oolong is based off of the (literally) pig-headed pilgrim Zhu Bajie, while Yamcha is a more liberal adaptation of the pilgrim Sha Wujing. Bulma is even more loosely based on the (male) Buddhist monk Xuanzang, the lead pilgrim whom the other three are assigned by the gods to project in order to atone for their past sins. The search for the dragonballs itself is a takeoff of the pilgrims’ quest for the sacred scriptures (which unlike the dragonballs are all located in a single place at the end of the trip), while Mt. Frypan and its mini-storyline is adapted from the Fire Mountain incident in JttW. Gyuumao is based on an actual demon bull who figures into the Fire Mountain part of JttW, and the Bashosen is likewise based off the fan in JttW that can supposedly put out Fire Mountain’s flames.

After DB’s first story arc though, JttW pretty much stopped serving as an inspiration for Toriyama. The Tenkaichi Budoukai was inspired by the popularity of similar competition based mini-storylines in Dr. Slump, Muscle Tower comes from the video game Spartan X (itself based on the Bruce Lee film Game of Death), while Piccolo Daimao was inspired by the villains of Dragon Quest, and so forth and so on. But DB’s JttW roots were not entirely forgotten…by the anime staff, at least. More JttW-inspired events popped up periodically in anime filler. Even longtime fans might not recognize these references, and so Mike and I will go over them in this thread. I'll cover the filler character Annin, her furnace, and her mountain home.

THE DB STORY:

At the end of the DB anime there is a five episode long filler story arc that deals with Mt. Frypan again catching fire, trapping Gyuumao along with Chi Chi’s keepsake wedding dress from her mother. In order to save him, Chi Chi and Goku go on a quest to put out the flames. They first think that the Bashosen is the key to extinguishing the blaze, but though they manage to get a new one, using it only makes the flames flare up even higher. Uranai Baba arrives and explains the problem: while the flames that initially engulfed Mt. Frypan at the beginning of the series were caused by a fire spirit that fell from heaven, these new flames are from the Hakke-ro, the Furnace of Eight Trigrams. The Bashosen had originally been a fan used to fan this furnace’s flames, which is why using it to try and put out Mt. Frypan’s flames will only make things worse.

The Furnace of Eight Trigrams is located on the peak of Gogyou-zan, the Mountain of Five Elements, which is situated on the opposite side of the Earth from Mt. Frypan. Looking after the furnace is someone with the title of Taijou Roukun, the “Great Old Exalted One”. Goku and Chi Chi set off to the Mountain of Five Elements to try and convince this person to put out the furnace’s fire. When they reach the top after getting past the mountain’s phantom guardians, the find that Goku’s grampa Gohan has a part-time job working at the furnace. His boss the Taijou Roukun turns out to be a young-looking woman named Annin, who in reality has been looking after the furnace for tens of thousands of years (the name “Annin” is a pun on an’nin doufu, “almond jelly”, a Chinese dessert).

Annin realizes that there must be a hole in the bottom of the furnace, which is why its flames have spread to Mt. Frypan. However, she refuses to put out the flames and fix the hole, because to do so would plunge the world into chaos. The problem is that the smoke generated by the furnace’s flames serve as a gateway to the afterlife. Whenever anyone on Earth dies, their spirit passes through this smoke to go to the other side, and the spirits of those long dead also use this smoke to return to Earth to visit their families on certain holidays. If the fire were put out, the smoke would disappear, leaving all these spirits trapped on Earth unable to pass on. This would turn the world into a living hell, and what’s worse, once the fire is put out it takes at least 2,000 years to start it back up again. Fortunately, when Annin sees that Goku has the Bashosen, she thinks of a way to fix the hole without putting out the fire. While she holds the furnace up, Goku swings the fan to temporarily part the flames, creating a safe passage to the bottom of the furnace. Goku is then to go down there, plug up the hole (by an astounding coincidence, Goku and Chi Chi already happened to find the rare materials necessary to fix it up earlier when they were searching for the Bashosen), and then jump back out again before the flames remerge. As you might expect, everything goes according to plan and the day is saved.

THE JOURNEY TO THE WEST STORY:

So what does any of this have to do with Journey to the West? Well, at the beginning of the novel, long before the titular journey gets underway, there’s a lengthy section dealing with the birth of Sun Wukong and the life he led before joining Xuanzang’s pilgrimage. After being born spontaneously from a rock, the monkey Sun Wukong gains great power studying under Taoist mystics. He uses this power to cause all sorts of havoc, until the Jade Emperor, ruler of Heaven, gives him an official rank in Heaven in hopes that this would settle him down. On the contrary though, when Sun Wukong learns that in Heaven he is little more than a glorified stable boy, he starts causing trouble again, going to war with all of Heaven’s armies. After great effort, Sun Wukong is finally captured by the god Erlang Shen and taken to Heaven for punishment. To the gods’ befuddlement though, they are unable to harm him in any way. Laozi, the deified founder of Taoism, steps forward and explains that because Wukong has ate and drank various divine foods, including Laozi’s own immortality elixir, his body is now as hard as a diamond.

If you’re still wondering how this all ties into the DB filler arc, here we go: while “Laozi” (or its variant spellings) is the name Taoism’s founder is most commonly known by, it is just an honorific title. His real name is supposed to have been “Li Er”, and in addition to “Laozi” he has various other honorary names and titles, including “Taishang Laojun”, meaning “Great Old Exalted One”, which in Japanese is read as…”Taijou Roukun”. It’s under the name Taishang Laojun that Laozi appears in JttW (though some English translations just call him “Laozi” or its variants since that’s what most Westerners know him as). After getting hold of Wukong, Laozi/Taishang Laojun puts him into his Furnace of Eight Trigrams, an alchemical furnace that will reduce Wukong’s body to ashes and extract all the immortality elixir that he drank, allowing Laozi to reclaim it. But Wukong, crafty as ever, manages to survive the 49-day alchemical process (I’ll explain how later) and escape from Laozi.

By this point, the gods in Heaven are desperate, and bring in their last and best hope: Buddha. The Buddha confronts Wukong and makes a bet. If Wukong can jump off of the palm of the Buddha’s right hand, then he will receive the Jade Emperor’s throne, but if he fails he must do penance down in the mortal world. Wukong eagerly takes up the challenge and uses his superhuman jumping skills to leap as high off the Buddha’s palm as he can. He comes to five great pillars above the clouds, where he writes his name and pees to prove that he had been there. He jumps back down again and tries to claim victory, but the Buddha reveals that the five pillars Wukong saw where just the five fingers of the Buddha’s right hand; his hand even has the writing and monkey urine to prove it. Wukong thinks that this must be some sort of trick, but before he can do much about it, Buddha throws him back down to the mortal world. Buddha then transforms his fingers into the five classical Chinese elements (metal, wood, water, fire, and earth), which combine together into a mountain that pins Wukong down, and to finish the job he seals Wukong to the spot by engraving the mountain with the mantra ”Om Mani Padme Hum”. Wukong is stuck under this aptly named “Mountain of Five Elements” for centuries until he is freed to accompany Xuanzang on his pilgrimage to atone for his misdeeds.

So there you have it: this is where the DB filler arc’s Taijou Roukun (Taishang Laojun), Furnace of Eight Trigrams, and Mountain of Five Elements come from. The anime staff really just took these names and used them for completely different things in a completely different story, but this isn’t really that much different an approach than the one Toriyama took during DB’s first story arc.

THE EIGHT TRIGRAMS AND FIVE ELEMENTS:

You might still be wondering just what the heck the “eight trigrams” are, and what they have to do with alchemical furnaces. “Eight trigrams” is the common English translation for the Ba Gua (八卦, hakke in Japanese), a set of eight Taoist symbols that represent the “fundamental principles of reality”. Super-literally the phrase means something more like “eight divination symbols”, but they’re commonly called “trigrams” in English because each one consists of three lines. Each line can be either broken or unbroken, and so the eight symbols consist of every possible combination of broken or unbroken lines: ☰ ☱ ☲ ☳ ☴ ☵ ☶ ☷. These symbols have been used for many different purposes, from fortune-telling to geography. The I Ching is a famous Chinese book of divination that analyzes the 64 possible pairs of the eight trigrams. Each of the eight trigrams correspond to (among other things) an aspect of nature: sky (☰), marsh (☱), fire (☲), thunder (☳), wind (☴), water (☵), mountain (☶), earth (☷). In DB, when Uranai Baba explains about the Furnace of Eight Trigrams, a diagram showing the kanji for each of these eight elements is shown.

While originally Taoism was more of a purely philosophical religion, concerned with how to best live your life in accordance with nature, over time Taoists came to be interested in using alchemy to refine their bodies and achieve immortality. As a result, the figure of Laozi (now deified) came to be pictured as a divine alchemist who brews the elixir of immortality in his furnace. And what better to adorn the Taoist founder’s alchemical furnace than those all-important Taoist symbols, the eight trigrams? In this way, the figure of the deified Laozi, Taishang Laojun, was created, and it’s in this form that he appears in Journey to the West. There’s no evidence that the historical Laozi was interested in alchemy or literal earthly immortality, but then it’s also debatable whether there ever was a historical Laozi at all.

Anyway, this brings up the question of how Sun Wukong managed to survive in Laozi’s Furnace of Eight Trigrams. In the story, Laozi’s furnace consists of eight compartments representing the eight trigrams, and as I explained before, each of the eight trigrams corresponds to a particular aspect of nature. These aspects interact according to complex rules of Taoist cosmology, and Wukong uses this to his advantage. Once inside the furnace, he crawls into the compartment corresponding to wind (☴), because wind blows out fire. This Pokemon-like strategy allows Wukong to escape the flames, but the wind from his compartment blew up smoke from the fire which permanently reddens his eyes.

You might also be curious about what exactly the “five elements” which the Buddha uses to imprison Wukong are. “Five elements” is a common English translation of ”Wu Xing” (五行, Gogyou in Japanese), an ancient Chinese theory of natural philosophy which holds that all things come about through the mutual interaction of five basic components: wood, fire, earth, metal, and water. 五 means “five” and 行 refers to movement (in Japanese it’s used to write the word for “go”, for instance), so “five movements” is used as a more literal translation than “five elements” (other translations include five phases, steps, or stages). This theory has been compared to the classical Greek elements (fire, earth, water, and air; sometimes aether as well), though how apt that comparison is seems to be a matter of debate. Here’s an interesting discussion from the discussion page for Wikipedia’s Wu Xing article:
As the article itself says (and in light of the "Wu zhong liu xing zhi qi" discussion above) "Five Phases" is truer to the meaning of Wu Xing ("five walks," "five movements"). Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water represent energetic states that transform over time. The erroneous but now-entrenched mistranslation, "Five Elements," originated with Jesuit missionaries who accompanied Dutch mariners to China. Steeped in a classical Greek and Roman framework of thought, the knowledge-loving Jesuits presumed that the concept of Wu Xing was similar to the idea of the Greek elements——fire, water, earth, and air——which were formerly thought to be the elemental building blocks of all things. Wu Xing is not the same idea at all. Wood, Fire, Metal, and Water correspond respectively with spring/growth, summer/maturity, autumn/decline, and winter/death/birth, with Earth as the balancing and transforming center. Wood is also wind, Fire is heat, Earth is humidity, Metal is dryness, Water is cold. There are other resonant correspondences to colors, odors, flavors, and in medicine, to body parts and functions. Those resonances are complex and extend throughout the macro- and microcosms. But they are definitely not "elemental" in the Greek sense. Throughout Wikipedia, all references to the Chinese "Five Elements" should be changed to "Five Phases," with redirects where necessary. (I have not edited this article, and leave this work for others.)
To which someone else responds:
What's with the "hence the preferred term Five Phases"? Preferred according to whom? I completely disagree that Elements should be banished. I am a Five Element acupuncturist. I have searched for a better term than Elements, but there isn't one. And it's certainly not "phase." A phase is like a station or season one passes through. Hence, as you're going through one phase, you're not in any other phases. This implies that the Elements exist separately from one another. They don't. They are all part of one whole. Despite the fact that Fire dominates Summer, the other four Elements are always present. Moreover, the Elements themselves are also substances. Water is water! Earth is earth! Wood in the human body is tendons/sinews. Earth is muscle. Water is also bone. Elements is a good term. Like the chemical elements, they can exist in a number of different states (spirits in the heavens, matter on earth), and like the chemical elements, they combine in an infinite array of ways to form the myriad things that fill the universe. I agree that "element" is not perfect, but it's better than "phase."
(Maybe it’s just my inner skeptic, but I think both of these people sound like crackpots. Still, hopefully this gives you some insight into how people conceive of the Wu Xing.)

ALTERNATE NAMES:

Finally, I’ll wrap up with notes on some alternate translations for stuff, just for good measure. Anthony Yu’s complete translation of Journey to the West calls Laozi’s furnace the “Brazier of Eight Trigrams”, and Wukong’s mountain prison the “Mountain of Five Phases” (“five phases” being an alternation translation for Wu Xing/Gogyou, as explained above). On the DB side of things, the subtitles for Funi’s DB DVDs call the mountain simply “Mt. Gogyo” and the furnace the “Eightfold Furnace” (in the dub it is simply the “Magic Furnace” and the mountain is “Mount Five Element” or, oddly, the “Dark World”). For some reason the subtitles substitute “Pyre Keeper” for “Taijou Roukun”. As mentioned before, Taijou Roukun more or less translates to “Great Old Exalted One”. But it is a title for Laozi, and Laozi keeps a furnace, and a furnace is kind of like a pyre, so…whatever. For Kanzentai, I’ve gone with “Mountain of Five Elements” and “Furnace of Eight Divinations”, and have usually left Taijou Roukun un-translated, though exactly how I break the word up varies (I also translated it as “ancient and revered individual” for the episode guide).

Aaa~~aaand that about wraps it up for Annin and her wacky furnace and mountain combo set. Mike has some stuff on Ginkaku and Kinkaku from DB episode 79 that he should post up soon.
Last edited by Herms on Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Feb 20, 2011 6:10 pm

Judy in Hungary sent an e-mail to the podcast asking about recent Naruto stuffage and if it's a reference to DragonBall -- two characters have a fan and a sword (the former possibly being the Basho-Sen, and the latter having seven stars, which she thought might be a reference to seven Dragon Balls). It's actually really got nothing to do with our favorite series, but in a roundabout way kinda does. Herms was asking me about the names of stuff in Anthony C. Yu's translation of Journey to the West, as well... so here we are with a coincidental collaboration of putting this stuffage together in one place.

In episode 79 of DragonBall ("Kinkaku and Ginkaku's Man-Eating Gourd"), we are introduced to yet another direct reference to Journey to the West in the form of two characters and one specific item.

THE DRAGONBALL EPISODE:

Kinkaku and Gintaku are brothers wreaking havoc on a town. They have found that they love the vegetables there, and come once a month to eat all they want, drink all they want, and basically just be terrible guys. A little girl named Chao is off in search of a strong guy to come stop them. She finds a tiger dude, but he just wants to eat her. Goku ends up coming to her rescue and agrees to come beat up the bad guys since he's training, anyway (heading east, by the way).

What really strikes fear in the villagers is that the brothers have this magical gourd -- they do "roll call" (randomly calling of names of the villagers), and if the villager doesn't answer them right away, they are sucked into the gourd and eventually dissolved into sake. They're all worried since Chao isn't back yet, but she gets there in time (with Goku in tow). The brothers notice a little baby, and ask what its name is. They eventually get the name out of the mother, but before they can speak it aloud (to a baby who obviously can't answer back yet, since it's only two weeks old...), Goku jumps in and starts beating them up. Kinkaku jumps in with a sword, and eventually Goku's name is called out. He doesn't respond, so he gets sucked into the gourd.

He's saved from being dissolved by stretching out Nyoi-Bo near the top, but can't break out (even with a Kamehameha). Goku decides he needs to pee, by the way, so he just does so down to the bottom of the gourd. Since there's swishing all around (due to the pee...), it sounds like Goku's been dissolved, so they open the gourd back up... but Goku just jumps out and grabs the gourd. He calls out their names in random order and an obnoxious number of times -- they think they've answered the right amount, but they're one off, and are sucked inside. He makes them promise not to do bad things anymore, so he lets them out. The villagers keep them under watch as they till the fields to make up for all the crops they ate, randomly calling out one of their names to make sure they're paying attention.

Image Image Image

THE JOURNEY TO THE WEST STORY:

In the original story, the two monsters decide to kidnap Tripitaka (the main priest) and eat his flesh to gain longer life. Silver Horn (the younger brother) heads off with thirty minions, but ends up just capturing Chu Pa-Chieh (whom Oolong is based on) after twenty rounds of fighting and calling his minions up to take him down. They bring him back, but Golden Horn says it's just ol' useless Chu Pa-Chieh. They send out fifty minions to look for Tripitaka. Silver Horn eventually goes out in disguise as an injured monk to lead them back to their home cave. Tripitaka tells Wu'kung to carry him, which he does -- but he can tell it's a monster. Silver Horn eventually uses some magic to pin Wu'kung down with some mountains, grabs Tripitaka, and heads home. The brothers send out Sly Devil and Wily Worm with two of their treasures -- the red gourd of purple gold, and the pure mutton-jade vase -- to help capture Wu'kung. With these items, if they call out his name and he answers, he'll be immediately sucked in and they can trap him with some magic words; after an hour and three quarters, he'll be reduced to pus.

Wu'kung disguises himself (you'll see this happen over and over...) as they come looking for him. He says he hates that monkey guy, too, and has them tell him all about what they're up to and what these two treasures do. He turns a piece of his hair into a gourd of his own, which he says can hold heaven! Theirs can only hold up to two people, so they should trade. They'll do it if he can prove it can store heaven. After some secret talkings with deities, the Jade Emperor arranges for the sky to be blackened out and it does indeed look like he's stored heaven in his gourd. They make a trade, and vow to be struck with a plague should they ever regret their decision.

Wu'kung disappears, they figure they've been had, and head back to the brothers. They've lost two treasures, but still have the Seven Star Sword and the palm-leaf fan. Their mom has the other treasure (the yellow-gold rope), so they send another two minions (Hill-Pawning Tiger and Sea-Lolling Dragon) off to get her and the treasure (saying she can also eat Tripitaka if she wants). Wu'kung follows them and eventually interrupts them saying he's a member of their clan, which they don't believe until he tells them exactly what they're doing, and that he was sent to tell them to hurry up since they're probably just going to goof off and take too long (which is pretty accurate). They get there, he knocks them out, takes a hair out, and disguises himself and his hair into the two minions sent to get the mom. He eventually gets going with the mom and some of her minions, but kills them all along the way before they get back to the brothers, and assumes her form.

Chu Pa-Chieh can tell it's Wu'kung since he saw his tail; Wu'kung (as the mom) says he's not too keen on eating Tripitaka, but the ears of that pig dude sound tasty. Chu Pa-Chieh lets it slip who's who at this point. Wu'kung is then attacked by the brothers with the Seven Star Sword, but it's all fun and games to him -- with his rod, this fight is a piece of cake. Golden Horn wants to give up, but Silver Horn at least wants to fight a few rounds. He gets his armor on and goes for it. Wu'kung knows the gourd won't work (since Silver Horn just won't answer to his name), so he lassos his head with the rope. Silver Horn knows spells against his own treasure, though, and ends up capturing Wu'kung. He drags him back, but Wu'kung just ends up escaping and disguising himself again as a minion. He swaps the rope for a fake one and transforms himself into a made-up fake brother of himself. He has the evil brothers call out this fake name, and wonders for a bit... if he responds to his fake name, will he get sucked in? Yep. He does. Trapped inside, he thinks about pissing or spitting for them to swish around and make it sound like he's dissolving, but he just starts calling out "Oh no! My such and such is gone!" instead. He takes out a hair and transforms it into a half-dissolved version of himself, and flies out when they check inside and see the fake body. He disguises himself AGAIN as a minion, watching the brothers drink and drink and drink in celebration of their victory. When they're good and drunk, he swaps the gourd for a fake one, keeping the real one for good.

Wu'kung says he's ANOTHER brother of his with a different name and with a gourd much like their own. He tricks Silver Horn into explaining the history of the gourd and matches the story himself. They decide to call out and answer each others' names -- Silver Horn still thinks he has the real one, so he ends up getting sucked inside the one Wu'kung stole earlier. Golden Horn asks which treasures are left -- the vase is now useless and passed on to Wu'kung, but he's got the Seven Star Sword and the fan. He calls up 300 minions and heads off to fight. After twenty or so rounds the minions just gang up on Wu'kung. They actually get more ferocious as they fight, so Wu'kung is forced to pluck out some hairs and duplicate himself. They tear apart the competition until it's just Golden Horn left standing. He swipes the fan facing south to produce fire, which Wu'kung just jumps over. He goes to the cave to rescue everyone... but ends up just grabbing the vase and leaving. Golden Horn is left by himself surrounded by corpses, so he falls into a deep sleep. Wu'kung goes back again to rescue everyone, but tip-toes in and tries to steal the weapons off of Golden Horn. He grabs the fan, but gently brushes Golden Horn's neck with it, waking him up. He's attacked again with the Seven Star Sword, but Wu'kung wins and Golden Horn takes off. Wu'kung unties everyone, and they hole up there for the night with a nice veggie dinner.

Golden Horn takes off to his mom's place and tells all the female minions what happened. His uncle (Great King Fox Number Seven) shows up, and they go back to the cave in search of revenge. The fox ends up getting killed when even Sha Monk joins in on the fight, and Chu Pa-Chieh delivers the final blow with his rake. Golden Horn goes after Chu Pa-Chieh for this, but with all three disciples involved in the fight now, it's too much for him and he takes off. Wu'kung follows him and calls out his name. Thinking it's one of his own minions, Golden Horn answers... and is sucked inside the vase. Wu'kung grabs the Seven Star Sword for himself, now!

After all this, a blind dude shows up and demands his treasures back. The guy is actually Lao Tzu (who tends to the elixer of life and all that stuff Herms wrote about earlier); it turns out the two demon brothers were sent as a test for Wu'kung's dedication to protecting Tripitaka and those are his treasures, so Wu'kung ultimately hands over the weapons (despite the story explicitly stating earlier that they remain in the Sun family even to this day... I checked the end of the story to see if Wu'kung gets them back and I didn't see anything like that, so I'm either missing something, or it's an oversight).

THE CONNECTIONS:

The brothers are an obvious parallel, at least in name and with a special weapon -- "Ginkaku (銀角)" ("gin" = "silver", "kaku" = horn) is the Great King Silver Horn, and "Kinkaku (金角)" ("kin" = "gold", "kaku" = horn) is the Great King Golden Horn (the DragonBall versions wear their respective kanji on their shirts).

The big difference is that the original gourd and vase will suck you up if you DO answer to your name, whereas in the DragonBall episode, you get sucked into the gourd if you DO NOT answer to your name. In the original story, Wu'kung only thinks about peeing inside, whereas Goku just goes ahead and does so (not out of malice, but simply because he's Goku and he has to pee). There also are not any other family members or extra weapons in the DragonBall story, leaving Goku to just take care of things with the two brothers in a single episode. In the original story, the monster brothers also don't bother themselves with any village; the only outside repercussions are that after pinning down Wu'kung with the mountains, the local deities are upset with each other that they allowed someone in the area they're supposed to preside over pin down Wu'kung, who'll probably kick their asses when he gets out.

I have pretty much no familiarity with them, but apparently there are two villains in Naruto also named Kinkaku and Ginkaku. They can use four of the five weapons due to some nonsense about being eaten by the Nine-Tailed Fox and being thrown up with his chakra. Folks familiar with them and the series can probably chime in, especially now with the full story that they're adapted from.

I need to re-read some stuff, but I think the palm-leaf fan that the Golden Horn brothers have is different from the one that Princess Iron Fan (the wife of the Bull Demon King, whom our DragonBall character of the mostly-same-name is roughly based on) has. Theirs we know produces fire when swiped facing south, whereas with hers:
Journey to the West wrote:... one wave of the fan will extinguish the fire; the second will produce a breeze, and the third will start the rain.
... which is exactly how Kame-Sen'nin describes it at the very beginning of the series, and is what is used in the wedding filler at the very end of the first TV series.

An entire other gigantic post could be dedicated to how Wu'kung ends up rehabilitating the son of the Bull Demon King and Princess Iron Fan, the fire he needs to put out, getting the fan used against him, how he fights back, what connections there are in there to DragonBall, blah blah blah... so maybe you should just go ahead and read some of that :).

Wu'kung meets up with the brothers looooooooooong before her (chapters 33-35 versus 59), and since he gets and turns over that first fan during that encounter... well, unless it's the same one and it somehow gets put into her possession and I just haven't read it in so long that I'm forgetting something, I guess they're two different "palm-leaf fans".
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by CODii » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:22 pm

Impressive work!

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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by Rukura » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:53 pm

Hopefully this info will be of use to Mike and Herms as to help sort out any possible paralels between the 3 usages of these characters, and possibly to help with Judy's question.

(As a side note, there doesn't seem to be much to the characters themselves regarding where they come from in terms of a paralel to Dragon Ball or Journey to the West as much as there might be to the weapons they use)

Recently in Naruto, one of the main villains gave massive use to an ability that allows him to bring back to life almost anyone from the past generations of ninjas. Two of which are two brothers of the Hidden Cloud Village, Ginkaku and Kinkaku.

The story here has it that, during their time, the Hidden Cloud Village tried to capture the Nine-Tailed Fox. But during that failed attempt, both Ginkaku and Kinkaku were swallowed whole by the Demon Fox. While anyone else would've died, they survived and raged inside the Fox for two weeks, while feeding off of the meat of its stomach, forcing it to eventually throw them up, which resulted in some of the Fox's chakra remaining with them. This is the plot point that allows them to be able to use the "Five Ultimate Ninja Treasures" that are said to have originally belonged to the Sage of the Six Paths (creator of all ninjutsu, bearer of the Ten-Tailed Beast, blah blah blah...) of which the brothers have 4 that they use in battle, since any normal human would have their chakra quickly devoured by the weapons.

EDIT: I believe they also carry the "Gold" and "Silver" kanji, but as a tatoo on their left arms.

The weapons themselves are the more interesting part, and probably could use some more explaining in terms of their origins by Herms.
The four weapons introduced by Ginkaku and Kinkaku are:

- Banana Fan, which has the to power create any of the five elements to use as ninjutsu (and its first use was to create fire lol)

- Rope of Clarity, which allows the user to bring forth the soul of anyone it touches;

- Seven Star Sword, that curses the soul brought out by the Rope of Clarity by severing the soul from the oponent's body. After cursing the soul, the sword shows the word (or words, if there's a tie) said the most during the cursed one's life. This is also used in conjunction with...

- The Crimson Gourd, in which the souls cursed by the Seven Star Sword are held hostage. The condition for the cursed one to be sucked inside the Gourd is saying the word that they've said the most during their life time, which the user of the Sword has seen reflected on it. Incidentally, if the cursed one stays silent too long...they get sucked in anyway lol.
The only way to counter this is for the most said word to change while the person is being sucked in.

The only real connection i'm seeing is that all three encarnations of the Ginkaku and Kinkaku brothers happen to have a gourd that sucks people in, of which even the conditions to do so difer from the three.


OH! And thanks to Mike and Herms for all the great research! Loved reading more about the existing tie-ins between Journey to the West and Dragon Ball :D


EDIT nº2: Sorry about adding to the post again, i totally forgot about another...i guess not reference, but homage to both Dragon Ball and Journey to the West from Kishimoto.

Although most were never made part of the main plot of the story, Kishimoto created all 9 Tailed Beasts and bearers of said beasts (Jinchuurikis). The Four Tailed Monkey Beast was designed based on Goku's Oozaru form and the Monkey King, as well as funny coincidental name for its bearer....Roshi.

In the recent Naruto illustration book put out by Viz, Kishimoto commented about all of the beasts' designs and origins. As for the Four Tailed Beast he said:
Masashi Kishomoto wrote:This design was based on a gorilla... that or the giant monkey version of Goku of Dragon Ball. The horns on his forehead are made to look like the Monkey King in Chinese mythology. He can spit fire and lava.
Here is the design featured on the illustration book:
Image
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:09 pm

Just a quick note, but is it just me...or do the Dragon Ball Ginkaku and Kinkaku look like Hokuto no Ken thugs?! :P

Rukura basically got the gist of the Naruto villains down, so I don't have much else to say. As of the most recent chapter (#528) they've not yet been fully beaten, so who knows what other references we might see.
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by Rukura » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:24 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Just a quick note, but is it just me...or do the Dragon Ball Ginkaku and Kinkaku look like Hokuto no Ken thugs?! :P

Rukura basically got the gist of the Naruto villains down, so I don't have much else to say. As of the most recent chapter (#528) they've not yet been fully beaten, so who knows what other references we might see.
I was already making a huge post about Naruto on a Dragon Ball forum so i was trying to hold that back, but they totally seem to fit Hokuto no Ken :lol: (edit: For some reason, that face painting seemed to seal the deal lol)

As far as the Ginkaku and Kinkaku of Naruto, i don't think there's gonna be anything more to them that can reference the originals since one of them got sealed up in the gourd and the other one transformed into a miniature fox due to having the Fox's chakra, kinda like Naruto :P
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by CODii » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:10 am

I've become really interested in reading 'Journey to the West.' Any suggestions on which English translation to get?
I was thinking about getting the abridged translation by Arthur Waley called 'Monkey: A Folk-Tale of China.' It seems to be very highly regarded. I mean it must have sime merit in order to continue being printed sixty years after its first release. Has anyone read this, or any other versions? I know there are complete translations out there, but as a college student I simply don't have enough time at this point in my life to read the unabridged text.

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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by Shoryuken » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:05 pm

Impressive read. I believe I read somewhere that Muten Roshi's name was based around one of Sun Wukong's titles as "Great Sage, Equal of Heaven".
And would it be too far fetched to call Dragon Ball Z/GT: "Journey to the West in SPACE!"
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by SHINOBI-03 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:05 pm

Nice read. I also made a JTTW topic once. But didn't live that much. http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9984
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:43 am

Nice work, this was a very insightful read!

I've heard something about another connection between DB and JttW. Was Tenshinhan based on Er Lang Shen, the three-eyed god who fought Sun Wukong?
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by SHINOBI-03 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:19 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Nice work, this was a very insightful read!

I've heard something about another connection between DB and JttW. Was Tenshinhan based on Er Lang Shen, the three-eyed god who fought Sun Wukong?
That's the most common theory. Here's how he looked in the CCTV 1980s TV show.

Image

It's also worth mentioning that this character is probably the first enemy that Wukong could not defeat in a battle.
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by Herms » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:03 pm

Shoryuken wrote:I believe I read somewhere that Muten Roshi's name was based around one of Sun Wukong's titles as "Great Sage, Equal of Heaven".
Toriyama hasn't mentioned anything about that. All he says in DB Forever's name pun guide is that it's just supposed to be a suitably impressive name. I suppose he could have been unconsciously influenced though.
Piccolo Daimao wrote:I've heard something about another connection between DB and JttW. Was Tenshinhan based on Er Lang Shen, the three-eyed god who fought Sun Wukong?
Toriyama's never said anything about that, and even as speculation I don't really buy it. Is there any similarity between the two besides that they have three eyes and manage to beat Wukong/Goku? Having three eyes is an incredibly common trait for supernatural figures in Asian mythology, and Toriyama has said he never even planned out in advance who would win the tournaments, so when he designed Tenshinhan as having three eyes he probably wasn't thinking of him as the guy who'd beat Goku (and Tenshinhan is hardly the first character to beat Goku anyway).
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:08 pm

Herms wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:I've heard something about another connection between DB and JttW. Was Tenshinhan based on Er Lang Shen, the three-eyed god who fought Sun Wukong?
Toriyama's never said anything about that, and even as speculation I don't really buy it. Is there any similarity between the two besides that they have three eyes and manage to beat Wukong/Goku? Having three eyes is an incredibly common trait for supernatural figures in Asian mythology, and Toriyama has said he never even planned out in advance who would win the tournaments, so when he designed Tenshinhan as having three eyes he probably wasn't thinking of him as the guy who'd beat Goku (and Tenshinhan is hardly the first character to beat Goku anyway).
Hmm...was it stated that Tenshinhan is based on anyone? And if so, whom?
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by Herms » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:12 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:Hmm...was it stated that Tenshinhan is based on anyone? And if so, whom?
No, as far as I know he's never been said to be based on any specific character.
Rukura wrote:The Four Tailed Monkey Beast was designed based on Goku's Oozaru form and the Monkey King, as well as funny coincidental name for its bearer....Roshi.
That guy's name is written with the kanji for "old" and "purple" though (老紫), rather than "old" and "teacher" like DB's Roshi (老師), just for the record..
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:14 pm

Herms wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:Hmm...was it stated that Tenshinhan is based on anyone? And if so, whom?
No, as far as I know he's never been said to be based on any specific character.
Ah, OK. For some reason (maybe, again, from stuff I've heard from other fans), I thought it was said that he was based on a specific character.
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by Rukura » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:40 pm

Herms wrote:That guy's name is written with the kanji for "old" and "purple" though (老紫), rather than "old" and "teacher" like DB's Roshi (老師), just for the record..
Oh, thanks! I was just looking at the book, which only has the romanizations, no kanji at all.
I figured it was just a cool little coincidence, since there was no comment on his name. Guess it would've also helped to see how they were written too :P
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by Herms » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:29 pm

CODii wrote:I've become really interested in reading 'Journey to the West.' Any suggestions on which English translation to get?
I was thinking about getting the abridged translation by Arthur Waley called 'Monkey: A Folk-Tale of China.' It seems to be very highly regarded. I mean it must have sime merit in order to continue being printed sixty years after its first release. Has anyone read this, or any other versions? I know there are complete translations out there, but as a college student I simply don't have enough time at this point in my life to read the unabridged text.
I just finished reading Arthur Waley's "Monkey" for the first time (making this thread rekindled my interest in JttW). It's pretty good, but can be hard goings at times, in the way translations of centuries-old books tend to be. His approach to abridging the original is to leave out most of the episodes of the actual journey, but translate more or less in full the stuff he leaves in. So it covers Wukong's birth and life up until his imprisonment, gives backstory on Tripitaka's father and mother and the way he got assigned to go on the journey, recounts how Tripitaka meets up with Wukong and his other followers, then covers only 3 of the 80 difficulties they group has on the way to India. After that it covers their arrival in India and how they get the scriptures, the single difficulty they have on the way back, their return to China, and then them going back to paradise to get their reward. It's about 300 pages in total. One annoyance is that the book seems to assume you already have a good knowledge of Chinese religion and mythology going in. It mentions people and things like the Jade Emperor, the Four Heavenly Kings, Laozi, arhats, bodhisattvas, etc without explaining what they are. So you might want to have Wikipedia handy when going through it. Also, unfortunately for us DB fans, the book doesn't cover the flaming mountain or Gold Horn/Silver Horn episodes at all.

There's another abridgment called "Monkey" too, this one by David Kherdian. It's about 200 pages andn in many ways feels like an abridgment of Arthur Waley's Monkey rather than the original JttW. This is the first version I read. It follows the same basic format as Waley's version, but gives shorter accounts of the main events. The main difference between it and Waley is that instead of the 3 episodes Waley has between Tripitaka getting all his disciples and the group reaching India, Kherdian has only one: the flaming mountain, which he covers in great detail. For this reason alone, as a DB fan you might want to pick up Kherdian's version rather than Waley's.

There's also "Myths and Legends of China" by ETC Werner, which has a section devoted to summarizing JttW. It gives only brief outlines of the major events, but because of this it covers far more of the dangers the group faces on the way to India than do Waley or Kherdian. Notably for DB and Naruto fans, it's the only one to include the episode with Gold Horn and Silver Horn, though it doesn't refer to either by name (it just calls them a pair of demon kings). The stuff with the ghourd and the star sword and whatnot is all mentioned though, in shortened form (the flaming mountain episode is in here too). Another advantage is that since the book is on Chinese myths and legends in general, the other chapters explain about the various figures who appear in the story. The disadvantage is that though the book has been recently reprinted and is fairly easy to find in stores, it's still the oldest of the lot (written in 1922) and shows it at points. The romanization system is often different from what you'll find today, which can lead to confusion if you're not that familiar with Chinese names to begin with. And the attitude taken towards the Chinese and their myths is sometimes a bit patronizing.
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Re: Journey to the Rest: a look at those other JttW referenc

Post by SHINOBI-03 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:58 pm

For me, the first book I've read was Journey to the West: The Monkey King's Amazing Adventures (Tuttle Classics)

Image

It's not bad as a starter. It's 256 pages and it's by Timothy Richard and Daniel Kane. It got some illustrations, but they are hideous compared to the front cover.

I bought the four volumes edition ((Anthony C. Yu)), but I stopped during Xuang Zang's exposition chapters.

Image

And if books are not your type of entertainment, you have the TV adaptations. The best one I see by far in terms of faithfulness is the 1980's series by CCTV.
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Translated episodes are available online, but no official English release.
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