Universe No.7

[Herms]

So perhaps the most perplexing bit of new info in Chouzenshuu 1 is the statement that Earth is "called Planet 4032-877, part of the Seventh Universe". This is the first ever mention within DB-dom of their being more than one "universe" (宇宙/uchuu). Now though, there's apparently at least 7, but we've so far got no indication how many there are total or what the others are like, or where they are in relation to each other. In fact, the tiny thing I quoted above is just about all the book says on the subject. The only other thing directly said about Earth's universe is that in its past Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta, and Majin Boo destroyed hundreds of planets.

Besides references to the Seventh Universe, Chouzenshuu 1's New World section also has a few more references to "the universe", without any reference to numbering or the idea of "Earth's universe", distinct from others. The creative activities of the Kaios/Kaioshins and the destructive activities of Bilus are said to "maintain the balance of the entire universe". There's also a diagram virtually identical to one in Daizenshuu 7 which illustrates how the "universe" is divided up into 4 "galaxies" (銀河/ginga) based on the cardinal directions, with Earth located in the North Galaxy.

So in summary, Earth is located in the Seventh Universe as well as the North Galaxy. Planet Vegeta and the hundreds of planets destroyed by Boo were also located in the Seventh Universe, but not necessarily the North Galaxy. And we know from the series that Planet Namek was not a part of North Kaio's administrative region (ie it's located somewhere outside the North Galaxy) but we don't know if it was part of the Seventh Universe; we also don't know if any other planets seen or mentioned in the series were or were not part of the Seventh Universe. Earth is also said in Chouzenshuu 1 to be one of the planets within Bilus' administrative zone, but this is not necessarily the same as the Seventh Universe or the North Galaxy.

Are we supposed to assume that all of this talk of Bilus and the Kaios/Kaioshins maintaining the balance of the universe only pertains to the Seventh Universe, with other gods of destruction maintaining the balance of other universes? That would probably be the simplest explanation until we get more info, but it's not clear where these other universes would actually fit into the model of the DB universe we've had since, well, since Daizenshuu 4, which of course Chouzenshuu 1 reprints in full.

Pages 262 and 263 of Chouzenshuu 1 reprint this diagram, which has the DB "cosmos" (for lack of a better word) set inside a gigantic ball that's split into an upper and lower half. The upper half is the afterlife, while the lower half is "the universe, divided up into north, south, east, and west" (outside of all this is an entirely seperate cosmos devoted entirely to the Kaioshins, who are apparently just that damn special). So you can see the difficulty: if the lower half of the ball consists of the "universe" which is divided into North/South/East/West, with Earth being in the north, then where in this configuration do we fit at least 6 other universes?

It could be that this old setup is just going to be completely replaced with a new one in which the lower half of the ball is divided into 7 (or more) universes, perhaps with each universe having its own NSEW sub-divisions. For that matter, Daizenshuu 4 makes no mention of the Demon World, while Daizenshuu 7 and various other later guides identify it as below the "universe", at the very bottom of the ball (in other words, the lower half of the ball is itself split between the universe and Demon World). So this wouldn't be the first time Daizenshuu 4's setup was expanded upon.

It might also be worth noting that while the Daizenshuu 4 diagram refers to the "universe" split up into NSEW, the intro to the diagram refers to the "macrocosm" (大宇宙/dai-uchuu) as split up into NSEW. I'd always just assumed these were different names for the same thing, but if there are multiples universes, perhaps the "macrocosm" could now be used to refer to the lower half of the ball as a whole? Maybe then galaxies are simply how the lower half of the ball is divided up...um, horizantally, you could say, while universes are the vertical subdivision? So Goku and co. are in the northern wing of the seventh floor of the macrocosm, while Dabra lives down in the basement. This isn't using "galaxy" or "universe" remotely close to what they mean scientifically, but...that's pretty much the way things were in DB before.

Alternatively, maybe the entire ball (afterlife, living world, Demon World, and all) that has until now constituted the entirety of the DB world (except for the Kaioshins' super special private cosmos) is itself simply the Seventh Universe, and there are a bunch of other balls floating around out there with their own afterlives and North Galaxies and Demon Worlds. Maybe even their own Kaioshins too, off in their own super special seperate cosmic balls.

Which I guess brings us to the Kaios and Kaioshins. Up to now, they've been described as overseeing the "universe", which is how Daizenshuu 4's section on the various gods phrases it (though it also describes the Grand Kaioshin as overseeing the "entire world" (全世界/zen-sekai). If there are other universes, do they have their own Kaios and Kaioshins? And where are those guys? On the other hand, this might bring us back to the often annoying fact that Japanese doesn't really have a true plural form, so maybe our familiar old Kaios and Kaioshins have been watching over the "universes" this whole time.

Another possible way this might tie together is that "universes" could be more like parallel realities than the simple spatial regions like the galaxies seem to be. Places like the Room of Spirit and Time or GT's Sugoroku Space (and for that matter the various alternate timelines) have never really been given an established place within the model of the DB cosmos. Presumably they're all part of some giant...hyperspatial general mish-mash thing, and since we still don't have a diagram for that we could probably throw in as many extra universes as we need.

So in conclusion...ugh, well hopefully they'll follow up on this in the later chouzenshuu.

[Kaboom]

Seven universes.

The one universe we've had shown and described extensively to us is contained in a big glass ball.

The Dragon Balls are also glass balls.

There are seven of them.

COINCIDENCE?!

[Rocketman]

Seven universes.

The one universe we've had shown and described extensively to us is contained in a big glass ball.

The Dragon Balls are also glass balls.

There are seven of them.

COINCIDENCE?! :think:

This ball contains our own universe! [/kamifarnsworth]

[MagicBox]

Or maybe the universe is contained within a giant Dragon Ball in an even bigger universe! And... now I'm thinking about the last few seconds of Men In Black 1.

That sure would be a deep twist for something like DragonBall...

[Gokuden]

Sounds good Herms, always interesting reading your posts. Watch me quote it next time, and have it riddled with errors.
I'd like to think there are more universes out there, some villains that could break the barriers and come requesting a battle against the Z senshi.
Maybe one of the other Balls is where Mirai Trunks is from. And the others of the deaded Mirais.

[Chuquita]

I like that this expanded version of DB's universe means that Toei/Shueisha could theoretically do more with the current cast if they wanted to. >_>
More adventure stuff with them; I'd like that, nice to know this leaves the door open for such things.

[Sinestro]

Crisis on Infinite Earths!

[Fox666]

deleted

[Herms]

That brings back the discussion about the Kaioshins supervisioning a series of Kaios and Dai Kaios. I still find it weird how Piccolo describes (four) Kaioshin as being above a single Dai Kaio.

It does remind me of the old PN.com fan theory, though even that just had 64 galaxies inside a single universe with the Grand Kaioshin on top, and not multiple universes (it also of course had each Kaio in charge of merely a quarter of a galaxy each, which is completely against what we're told in the series).

What's more, if the Kaioshins we know are only maintaining the balance of one "universe" out of several, with the Kaios helping, and the other universes have their own Kaioshins helped by their own Kaios, then this doesn't actually lower the Kaioshin-to-Kaio ratio; it just multiplies the total number of each. We still don't end up with a tidy top to bottom pyramid structure. It doesn't seem like that's what Toriyama ever had in mind. The Kaios have a pyramid structure with the NESW Kaios under the Grand Kaio, and the Kaioshins have the same setup, but the two groups aren't connected in an even bigger pyramid.

Maybe that seems counter-intuitive, but I think it makes sense if you keep in mind that the Kaioshin are essentially "Super Kaios", with each Kaio having a Kaioshin equivalent. The two groups relate as higher and lower versions of the same thing, rather than as a series of completely seperate positions in a big pyramid structure.

[Raykugen]

now I'm thinking about the last few seconds of Men In Black 1.

Me too

[hleV]

Seven universes.

Nothing suggests that there are only 7. Just that the one we know is the 7th.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Since they didn't explain this in detail, I expect an explanation either in BoG, or the final Chozenshuu.

[SaiyaJedi]

I've thought about writing a post on this, but it feels too much like religious scholars arguing about the bible. Holy wars can be started over much less than what we're talking about here. At the end of the day... I'll just let it sort itself out.

[soulnova]

You know, maybe is because I'm used to Aztec count, but the way they say "7th Universe" reminds of the "5th Sun" Aztecs used to explain their own universe. Like that's the 7th Universe that has existed so far, not that there are other 6 or more at the same time.

Other thing is that maybe they are also all the alternate timelines created by Time Travel so far. We know that Mirai Trunks' world it still exists somehow on its own.

[Marco Polo]

You know, maybe is because I'm used to Aztec count, but the way they say "7th Universe" reminds of the "5th Sun" Aztecs used to explain their own universe. Like that's the 7th Universe that has existed so far, not that there are other 6 or more at the same time.

That's the first thing I thought too. And with Bils being the God of Destruction and Wils stating that "before creation comes destruction", maybe DB's universe goes through a(n infinite?) series of Big Crunches and Big Bangs or something.

[Zephyr]

Alternatively, maybe the entire ball (afterlife, living world, Demon World, and all) that has until now constituted the entirety of the DB world (except for the Kaioshins' super special private cosmos) is itself simply the Seventh Universe, and there are a bunch of other balls floating around out there with their own afterlives and North Galaxies and Demon Worlds. Maybe even their own Kaioshins too, off in their own super special seperate cosmic balls.

I prefer this interpretation, to be honest.

[Gokuden]

Crisis on Infinite Earths!

My only regret is having the original Huntress die, along with Robin.
It would make sense for the universe we know to be the 7th, after all that is a lucky number, and our protagonists always manage pull-through.
The other Gokus and Z fighters aren't so lucky, what with one Trunks dying when going back to tell the Z-Fighters he defeated the Androids, one Goku dying from a heart disease, and some Gohan dying.

[JeffJarrett]

You know, maybe is because I'm used to Aztec count, but the way they say "7th Universe" reminds of the "5th Sun" Aztecs used to explain their own universe. Like that's the 7th Universe that has existed so far, not that there are other 6 or more at the same time.

I also thought this, it is the 7th version of the same universe that has been destroyed and then recreated/reorganized for the 7th time.

[InfernalVegito]

I never particularly cared for it but this sounds interesting. I am curious to see what the totality of everything is or will be and if our known Kaioshins are indeed the gods of literally everything (all universes, realities and timelines) that exists.