Dragon Ball Z - Episodes 16-20 - Discussion Thread [Rewatch - Week 4]

[Ajay]

Welcome! For details on this rewatch, click here!

Man, the holidays have been out of sync with everything. Sorry for posting late again.

Here are some legal ways to stream the series:
Funimation (North America)
AnimeLab (Australia and New Zealand)

This week we're covering:

[spoiler]走れ悟飯！チチの待つなつかしのパオズ山
Hashire Gohan! Chichi no Matsu Natsukashi no Paozu Yama
Run, Gohan! Longing for Mt. Paozu, Where Chi-Chi is Waiting

After washing up on shore, Gohan is saved by some children who lost their homes and parents in a tsunami two years ago. Living on the outskirts of town, the seven of them refuse to enter an orphanage, but the day after they befriend Gohan, orphanage employees come and they are captured by the police! Thinking of their future, the teenager Pigero doesn’t save them, and escapes with Gohan. Gohan returns to Mt. Paozu, but thinking of the orphans who endured even without their parents, he heads back without meeting Chi-Chi.

明日なき街！勝利への遠い道のり
Asu Naki Machi! Shōri e no Tōi Michinori
City of No Tomorrow! The Long Road to Victory

Now that Gohan has endured the half year trial, Piccolo begins their special training on the island. At that same time, Kuririn and the others at the temple are irritated at having not been given any training for two months, but Mister Popo sends the four of them without Yajirobe on a trip to the past in their minds. In a Saiyan city in ruins, Tenshinhan and the others are attacked by two warriors! After the four struggle in vain and are completely defeated, they hear from God that their opponents were only half-strong Saiyans, and their fighting resolve is renewed!!

終点～ん蛇の道！おめえ界王様か？
Shūtennn Hebi no Michi! Omē Kaiō-sama ka?
Last Stop on Serpent Road! Are you Kaiō-sama?

With his tail having grown back after half a year, Gohan runs wild and attacks Piccolo?! Because the spaceship that carried Goku to Earth as a baby is on the island where they are training, and the machines inside the ship emit orders for Goku, which drive Gohan to fight! What’s more, at night the machines project an illusion of the full moon, and Gohan transforms into an Ōzaru!! Realizing this, Piccolo destroys the spaceship, and Gohan returns to normal. Meanwhile, Goku runs to the end of the Serpent Road, and discovers Kaiō’s planet.

重力との戦い！バブルス君をつかまえろ
Jūryoku to no Tatakai! Baburusu-kun o Tsukamaero
The Battle with Gravity! Catch Bubbles-kun

On Planet Kaiō, Goku meets the pun-loving Kaiō. After making Kaiō laugh with a pun he thought up with his utmost effort, he gets permission to be trained. Saying that the Saiyan are stronger than himself, Kaiō orders Goku to catch his pet Bubbles, on his planet with 10x Earth’s gravity. Goku sprints after Bubbles with all his might, and in three weeks finally catches him! Kaiō is impressed at Goku having conquered 10x gravity, and expects that he might be able to master the Kaiō-Ken.

よみがえるサイヤ人伝説！悟空のルーツ
Yomigaeru Saiya-jin Densetsu! Gokū no Rūtsu
The Return of the Saiyan Legend! Goku’s Roots

Continuing on, Kaiō gives Goku the training task of hitting his own errand boy Gregory with a giant hammer. Kaiō then tells him about how the Saiyans, who used to live together with the Tsufruians on Planet Vegeta, were eventually wiped out, reduced to only four people. Angry at knowing the evil deeds of the Saiyans, Goku dreams of pursuing Gregory, radiating light as he flies rapidly through the sky. Finally, after two weeks Goku succeeds in hitting him! Meanwhile, Kuririn and the others finish their training at the temple.[/spoiler]


Suggested Format & Weekly Questions

Language: For the sake of context, let us know which language you're watching the series in (and what score, if required).
General Thoughts: Your thoughts on the episode, possibly linked to the suggested questions if need be. Cover the plot, the tone, the character interactions, and characterisation.
Entertainment Factor: How was the pacing? Did the episode keep you entertained throughout, or what could have been done better?
Animation: Did you like the action sequences, or the way characters emoted? Did things move in a satisfying way, or was it mostly style over substance?
Questions: Not necessary, but if you're curious about opinions on a specific point that hasn't been touched on, go ahead and ask! It's a nice way to spur the topic onward.

- How do you feel about Joji Yanami's Kaio? If you're not watching in Japanese, switch over for a preview! Yanami was unfortunately ill during Dragon Ball Super, which was many people's first experience with this character in the original language. Does hearing the original performance from a healthy Yanami change your opinion of his portrayal in any significant way if you were previously disappointed?

- This marks the end of the lengthy batch of filler. How do you feel about them as a whole? Did it feel like a worthwhile build up to the Saiyans' arrival, or is it transparently filler content?

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 16

General thoughts: not as bad as I remembered. It's not a great episode, and these orphans are kinda forgettable as characters, but at least it's not as boring as the previous four episodes. I admit I laughed at the orphans' riot against the "cops", and I found that Piegero's decision of leaving the orphans to give them a better education was pretty reasonable overall. However, I'm not that sure how to judge these "cops", who are considered actual villains in this episode, even though they're simply doing their job. Moreover, I have a problem with Piegero changing his mind at the last minute: if he didn't want these orphans to become delinquents, then WHY did he trigger them in the first place? He could've simply told them that despite not having parents, they still had the right of being educated and they didn't need to steal for living. He may be a leader, but of lost causes. Oddly enough, it's maybe the first and only time in which the narrator doesn't speak at the end.

Entertainment factor: sometimes it's kinda enjoyable, but has got plenty of unneeded moments. The filler inside the filler.

Animation: this is the absolute first episode to be storyboarded and supervised by the same person, Katsumi Aoshima from Freelance. Of course, 26 years later, Yoshitaka Yashima would do the same in ep. 15 of Super, providing both storyboarding and supervising/key animation. In terms of animation, there's barely no action in this episode, and at the very least it's okay. Then again, this episode follows the same pattern as the previous entries, as they reused animations of Goku running and of the Saiyans sleeping in their pods. This round goes to Nakatsuru's scene from ep. 14.

Music: I don't have any problems with its placement overall, since I enjoyed hearing older tracks from DB movies, mixed with newer additions like Bumper Cars or The Ankle-Biter Revolution. Unfortunately, they were able to ruin everything almost completely with the last two tracks: M117 (when Gohan reaches his house) sounds extremely sappy, while M727 is OVERUSED by now, and for being Vegeta's theme, it's unremarkable and stuffy.

Overall score: 6/10, expected much worse, but this arc has way too many filler episodes. I wish they had focused on PRE-EXISTING characters' development more. In ep. 12 they tried to connect Tenshinhan and Lunch, but due to the former's indifference and the latter's stalking, it failed miserably.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 17

General thoughts: FINALLY the plot is moving on after 6 filler episodes, and Piccolo starts training with Gohan. However, this episode focuses mainly on Krillin and the others training at Kami's palace, and of course the best thing is Popo's characterization. I love when he's portrayed as his DB self, rather than his crybaby self of later sagas. I also like the premise of having them fight two different Saiyans in a different time and place, so that they can test their strengths and realize how cruel Saiyans are. And that's where good things end, since the outcome is DULL and BORING despite having an interesting concept. It's not the worst filler episode, but visuals are the weak spot of this episode: this apocalyptic scenery looks very poor, with really dull colors. I know they're supposed to be ruins, but they're so frustrating to look at. Besides, (this point will be discussed on the animation paragraph) I really hate how they "fight" these bland and boring Saiyans, by using REPETITIVE and DEBATABLE "strategies": for example, Tenshinhan made a super dumb move by using his Kikoho and his Multi-form AT THE SAME TIME, even though his power was reduced to just 1/4 of his maximum. And of course, spamming Soukidans over and over again. When I want to see a fight, I demand PUNCHES, KICKS, CHOREOGRAPHY and SPEED. None of these things appeared.

Entertainment factor: its pacing is alright, but they managed to make BORING an episode with an interesting initial premise.

Animation: this is where the main problems stand. For starters, Kasai's storyboarding is far less convincing than his previous entries. Even though it starts pretty well with the fighting scenario with Gohan and Piccolo, his remaining storyboarding is simply forgettable and boring. Again, I get that they're ruins, but I feel they should've given it some more value, through different chromatic contrasts. Nothing: simply dull colors. In addition to this, this looks like an incredibly rushed episode, whilst 7 weeks available. And sadly, here Shindo's corrections only make the situation worse, because characters have massive ears, twisted eyebrows and lack of accurate shading. In fact, I had a hard time spotting Yamamuro's work, which is generally the most accurate, as Shindo's supervision is dominant. The animation quality does not help, either: for instance, using Ebisawa's device of punching/kicking the air isn't recommended, because you have to feel the impact, you have to see who gets punched. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 2395055105 Then again, I'm definitely not a fan of reusing energy attacks over and over again, and this episode does it ALL THE TIME. And when they fight regularly, movements feel stiff, slow and conservative. I don't mind the reuse of animation, as long as there is something more substantial behind. Unfortunately, this episode has very dull and boring action sequences.

Music: it's always pleasant to hear M317 from Taopaipai saga (when Krillin and the others train in the 1st half). At this point I should stop caring about M728, M740 and M741 being played for the **th time, but when I hear M727 at the end, I can easily deduce they don't care, either.

Overall score: a good idea, but a bland and BORING execution. 5,5/10.

[nickzambuto]

This is around the time when I decided Nozawa as Gohan is GOAT and amazingly actually better than her Goku.

[Ajay]

Episode 16

General Thoughts: My thoughts here pretty much reflect my opinions on the last Gohan episode. It's all starting to feel like the same point is being made over and over, now. It's time to wrap this part of the story up and move on. Gohan's grown as a person, his training's basically done - okay, focus on something else~!

Putting that aside, the content itself isn't particularly memorable. The orphans aren't all that interesting, and while hearing a young Takeshi Kusao as Piegero is nice, he's hardly a great character, either. They pretty much exist to facilitate the final scene where Gohan reaches the outskirts of his home, but frankly, it's a very tenuous link, and that scene would have worked just fine even if you cut out their plot.

Very much the definition of aimless filler, and not an episode I'll be rushing back to rewatch any time soon.

Entertainment Factor: It's not a boring episode, so I suppose it has that going for it, but in the context of these other episodes, it unfortunately doesn't land as intended.

Animation: gaberparadiso basically covered everything I was going so say, so just read his post. The only thing I'll add is that Aoshima's board isn't half bad considering he (she? unisex name!) doesn't typically storyboard episodes, from what I can see anyway. There are quite a number of interesting compositions, so while it won't blow your socks off, much like his animation, it's a touch above serviceable.

[ABED]

I wouldn't call it aimless, and it's not the same point as Gohan's power is growing. This episode is about Gohan trying to get home but realizing that he has to protect his home. Probably could've done without the orphan kids, but it's not another episode about Gohan's growing power or learning a tough lesson about survival. The rest of the episode is dull but the last minute or so is great. He can see his home but realizes he has to protect his home.

- Goku FINALLY reaches the end of Snake Way - thank god. While I get wanting to convey its length, his journey takes too long.
- Kaio's a treat to watch.
- While it would seem having Bubbles and Gregory serve the same function, both are different enough and the episodes are so enjoyable that I don't mind it.
- I liked the apocalyptic vision of Planet Vegeta. It makes way more sense that Vegeta would be a crap hole than a clean and technologically advanced society. They are a race of savages, afterall. I enjoyed the Pendulum Room episode. It was very atmospheric. It makes good use of the supporting cast and demonstrates how long the road is for them. If they were defeated with ease by these Saiyans, imagine what's in store when two much stronger Saiyans arrive.

Kasai's storyboarding

How do you know what he storyboarded?

[gaberparadiso]

Kasai's storyboarding

How do you know what he storyboarded?

Simply by reading credits and developing visual memory.

[ABED]

I don't mean the person. I mean that all you have is the final product (i.e. the episode). How do you know what they storyboarded? And what visual memory are you referring to?

[gaberparadiso]

I don't mean the person. I mean that all you have is the final product (i.e. the episode). How do you know what they storyboarded? And what visual memory are you referring to?

I was referring to his works from previous episodes. But I don't understand what you mean. I simply read credits, which listed Kasai as both storyboard artist and episode director, and Tatsuo Yamamoto as art director. Of course, I judge the episode from its final product. It's simply my opinion: Osamu Kasai is one of the best storyboard artists of the original series, but in this episode I didn't find it that great. That's it.

[Ajay]

I don't mean the person. I mean that all you have is the final product (i.e. the episode). How do you know what they storyboarded? And what visual memory are you referring to?

The storyboard artist storyboards the entire episode. I look at the manga to see how they adapted certain scenes, while also subtracting that stuff to see just how imaginative they really are.

'Visual memory' is essentially building a mental picture of what these artists tend to do. For animators, you can build a mental picture of their stylistic quirks, whether that be their character art, timing, effects shapes or what have you.

[ABED]

Okay, but why call it "storyboarding"? We know what the final product is, but not the storyboard. It's less that I'm being pedantic, and more that I'm genuinely trying to understand why you pick that term.

[Ajay]

Okay, but why call it "storyboarding"? We know what the final product is, but not the storyboard. It's less that I'm being pedantic, and more that I'm genuinely trying to understand why you pick that term.

Because that's the industry term for describing the cinematography in animation.

[ABED]

Okay, but why call it "storyboarding"? We know what the final product is, but not the storyboard. It's less that I'm being pedantic, and more that I'm genuinely trying to understand why you pick that term.

Because that's the industry term for describing the cinematography in animation.

That seems confusing. It's using an intermediate process to refer to an aspect of the finished product.

[Taisa732]

Language: Japanese

General Thoughts: Last stretch of fillers before the real battle begins!
Episode 16: So, this episode... I don't know why exactly, but I seem to have a wired relationship with this one in particular. Every time I see it I seem to shift between liking it or just being annoyed.
I couldn't tell you why that happens, but if I had to take a guess I'd say it comes down to three factors. First of all the adults. There is no doubt that they are in the right, in fact the episode ends with the kids all going to the orphanage. But the way the adults act and are portrayed they come across as evil and mean.
If you want to allure a bunch of scared young kids you don't use force. You bring them food, clean clothes, maybe toys and hope. Despite any good intentions they look frightening and they act just as threatening. If I was one of those kids I would try to hide in fear. So in the end it doesn't feel like a happy ending for the kids.
Second factor is the older kid, Pigero. As a character he is actually quite interesting (even if cliched), but maybe not at his age. He's what, a teenager? So, being so much older than the others he should know better. He should know that living in the wild isn't the best solution for this kids. He obviously is very mature for his age, so he should realize much sooner that going in an orphanage would be best for his friends. He shouldn't need Gohan to understand this, therefore his character arc feels almost forced. Maybe having him a bit younger, more at age with the others, would have been a better choice.
Third and final is Gohan. I won't repeat what I said last week regarding episode 15, but my point still stands. He should be beyond the point of feeling homesick. Plus the lessons he learns here are a bit of a repeat, since he learns to take responsibility with the robot.
With all this said I do admit that in whatever mood I am when watching it there is one moment I always enjoy. The final dialogue between Gohan and Piccolo, being there first real interaction as student and master (without any whining).

Episode 17: Speaking of Gohan and Piccolo, easily the best parts of this episode come form them in what is most deferentially the first day of real training. Piccolo is still tough and unapologetic with him, hitting heavily without restrain. On the other hand Gohan is a bit scared of him and clumsy.
For the rest of the episode... mh... well it's interesting seeing what could have been a saiyan culture (although swords? Really?). On top of that the message is there somewhere, BUT... the fight with the saiyans is actually very boring and it mitigates the sense of terror that comes at the end.
The idea is that the four of them attempt to fight two low class saiyans and get wrecked without a chance, but since the fight is slow and uninteresting by the time you get to the end you already don't care anymore. More so the cheery atmosphere at the end ruins it a bit.
The two saiyans approaching Earth are far beyond the two lowlifes that destroyed them, so it would've been more impactful if it ended on a sombre mood. It would've made Nappa and Vegeta even more menacing.

Episode 18: This is another one I have problems with, but before I list the cons I do what to address some pros.
I like Gohan and Piccolo's training and seeing how Gohan is progressing and also how there relationship is growing. This is the first time we hear Gohan calling him Piccolo-san.
The other good thin is the ending, Goku finally getting to Kaio's and confusing Bubbles with Kaio himself. You could argue that Goku seems a bit stupid for mixing up a monkey with a deity, but since one of his former masters was a cat you can't blame the poor guy.
And now for the aforementioned list of cons (yes, it literally is a list):
1- Since when saiyans have that reaction to a full moon? It makes no sense both way, if you consider that Gohan already has a tail or no. If he didn't to begin with the moon shouldn't effect him, while if he already had his tail then he should've directly transform in an Oozaru, no wild animal in between state.
2- It's stated, in this arc, that in order to transform in Oozaru a saiyan must absorb Blutz Waves that are created ether form the moon itself or from a Power Ball, neither of which is represented here. A projection in the sky does not have this trait, so Gohan can not transform. (and if you want to argue that the manga wasn't at that point yet, number 1 is my answer to that)
3- And here is another problem, if it's a projection it shouldn't even work. In order to see the moon you need a solid surface where it's projected on. Even if it isn't a real projection form Goku's spaceship, then it's something that wasn't established before, therefore unaffected and unclear.
4- Whatever it is, how and why it can be seen even at the Kame House, kilometres away from where Gohan and Piccolo are?
5- On that note, let's talk about locations. I can forgive that the spaceship isn't exactly in the same place because that happens often with other areas (Goku's house for example always changes looks and surroundings), but I do not forgive it's placement. One thing should be clear and obvious, Goku's spaceship landed near Mount Paozu, considering that that's the place where Grandpa Gohan first finds him. Gohan's training grounds aren't anywhere near the Paozu area (seriously, do I need to bring back the map?).
6- Final note about that darn spaceship (at least the last one I care to bring up). Ok fine, they didn't know at the time that Toriyama had other plans for it, but if in there recreation of the world it gets destroyed then they should address the issue and find a way to fix it (eventually). Ignoring it makes it and inconsistency
7- Can we stop giving Piccolo techniques he doesn't have?! Tenshinhan's Shishin no Ken from a couple of episodes ago and now Muten's Bankoku Bikkuri Sho?! No, stop it!
Ok, ok... I'm done with this one. Not really, but let's move on anyway.

Episode 19 and 20: Since fillers are over I'll go back talking more in general. Episode 19 is pretty nice. It has Goku's first interactions with Kaio that are entertaining and a very touching moment between Gohan and Piccolo near the campfire. Plus for the first time we hear Goku accepting his origins, admitting out loud that, yes, he is a saiyan, on top of that Kaio's reaction is priceless. And I have to admit that Nozawa's fake laugh (at Kaio's jokes) cracked me up.
Episode 20 is similar, Goku and Kaio interacting, Piccolo and Gohan bonding. I didn't care for Gregory though, its a repeat of Bubbles. I would rather have Goku start his training on Kaioken or on the Genkidama, especially because Kaio mentioned the first already in the previews episode and we'll see the second at the start of the next, so we are aware that he'll learn both before the saiyans even arrive.
But I do like the saiyan/tuffles story it really fascinates me and I wish we could have more of this. Only thing is, maybe it would've been better if they stop the story before mentioning “Freezer”, specially because it makes Goku look a bit dumb when he actually meets him and because it's a bit of a spoiler for what's to come. We should still think a meteor destroyed planet Vegeta at this point.

Entertainment Factor: It's a step forward from the last five episodes. I still have some problems with some of them... maybe you've noticed, but I do enjoy most of the content. Even the worst of them (I'm looking at you episode 18!) has something of value.
With that said, it is nice to be back on the main story, specially because saiyans are approaching now and the real fight is about to start.

Animation: Nothing mind blowing, but once again a lot of little things that add up. For me the highlight of the week is Goku on Kaio's planet in both episode 19 and 20 while dealing with the gravity obstacle. Love Bubbles throwing apples down at Goku and his physical reaction (his hair and body response to the situation). You can really feel the weight of the environment and the effect it has on Goku. Also loved his movements while trying to run after the monkey.
An other nice moment was him sliding the last part of the path and almost falling off the tail and how he also gets back up.

Questions: I have a question. What is Gohan doing when he starts listing animals in episode 20? And why does he do it? I never understood that.

- How do you feel about Joji Yanami's Kaio? If you're not watching in Japanese, switch over for a preview! Yanami was unfortunately ill during Dragon Ball Super, which was many people's first experience with this character in the original language. Does hearing the original performance from a healthy Yanami change your opinion of his portrayal in any significant way if you were previously disappointed?

This isn't my first DBZ viewing in Japanese, but it's been a while since last time. So when Super started I didn't have fresh memories of how Kaio sounded originally. Even if I did notice that he seemed a little old and tired it never bothered me much.
Researching what was happening behind the scenes and discovering the explanation why he performed that way, and considering not only that he was sick, but also his age, just gave me a reason to respect and admire his work and commitment. Joji Yanami deserves mad respect.

- This marks the end of the lengthy batch of filler. How do you feel about them as a whole? Did it feel like a worthwhile build up to the Saiyans' arrival, or is it transparently filler content?

I'd say it's a bit both. While I do enjoy some of it (even the bad fillers have some redeeming quality), it drags on for a bit much. There are places where they overstay their welcome and you could eliminate at least half of them and miss nothing. Unfortunately these fillers do bring down the arc as a whole.
However, the best thing that the anime has over the manga is Gohan's development and his relationship with Piccolo. Since the source material is in a different media, Toriyama didn't have enough pages to show Gohan's progress over this period. With that said, some of the episodes seem to be on repeat and ultimately don't add anything new.
Personally I watch them only when I'm in the mood.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 18

General thoughts: this episode demonstrates how poorly written fillers can raise a lot of questions and doubts: for instance, THAT pod can't be the one which brought Goku as a baby, because Bulma and his father would reconstruct it in Namek arc, and here Piccolo destroys it with his Makankosappo. Even though they say it's actually Goku's pod, it reappears 20 episodes later. Besides, shall we mention how the pod was CONVENIENTLY on the exact same place where Piccolo and Gohan train. And while we're at it, WHY did Gohan throw a tantrum against Piccolo? I know he technically killed his father, but it was Raditz who appeared in his dream and ESPECIALLY, Gohan was UNCONSCIOUS when it happened. Again, how is that pod projector so EFFECTIVE that it can show a CLEAN full moon? A projector SO EFFECTIVE, that Kamesennin and Bulma can see the FULL MOON from a farther distance. Honestly, how come is a filler episode THAT troublesome and full of retcons? Anyway, as for the other plot, Goku FINALLY reached Kaiosama's planet, and of course can't move freely because its gravity is ten times stronger. Goku mistaking Bubbles for Kaio is quite dumb, but again, it fits his naive character, I guess. Overall, while I think the ending and Piccolo feeling sorry about Gohan were nice bits, this filler was considerably stupid and badly written.

Entertainment factor: despite its problems, it's far less boring than the most recent episodes, though. Gohan vs Piccolo was a rather enjoyable fight.

Animation: maybe not the absolute best-looking storyboarding from Ueda, but still a step up over the dull boredom of last episode. As expected, the artwork is not that polished, with only 3 weeks provided, and again, Uchiyama's corrections are not that helpful, either. Luckily, unlike the previous episode, we get much better action, especially during the 1st half, through some pretty neat animation of Gohan's training at the beginning or Gohan's rampage against Piccolo, both animated by Shida. However, from Gohan's transformation onwards, they start recycling animation from episode 8, on the specific the scenes with the Oozaru attacking. It does get quite distracting at some point. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 0771237888 Then again, I can't blame them for having very little time.

Music: probably the most sensible BGM placement so far. Even the overused M740, M741 and M742 were kinda fitting (the latter was looped, though). Like I said copious times, I love Piccolo arc BGM and hearing those tracks is always pleasant.

Overall score: pretty stupid episode with surprisingly decent action. 5,5/10.

[Ajay]

That seems confusing. It's using an intermediate process to refer to an aspect of the finished product.

It's actually the simplest and clearest way of going about things. You could refer to the board in conjunction with the animators' layouts, but they're just detailed extensions of the storyboard, so that's largely unnecessary. For example, you can flick through Yamamuro's storyboard book for Resurrection 'F' and it's basically identical to every aspect of the final film. The board is the backbone of a piece of animation - only a few animators are granted freedoms to ignore it or greatly expand on it (huge industry stars like Naotoshi Shida, for example).

I appreciate where you're coming from, and your point totally applies to live action film where a great deal can change due to all kinds of variables, but it's the standard industry term because it's just too linearly intertwined in the animation process to bother separating. Once you do, you end up delving deep into presumptions, and that's no good for anyone. The way an episode is framed on paper is 99% what you see on your screen at the end, so that's what's used with regards to the cinematography. Once you touch on anything regarding movement within those frames, then you're off into the key animation/animation supervisor positions.

Hope that helps~!

[ABED]

That seems confusing. It's using an intermediate process to refer to an aspect of the finished product.

It's actually the simplest and clearest way of going about things. You could refer to the board in conjunction with the animators' layouts, but they're just detailed extensions of the storyboard, so that's largely unnecessary. For example, you can flick through Yamamuro's storyboard book for Resurrection 'F' and it's basically identical to every aspect of the final film. The board is the backbone of a piece of animation - only a few animators are granted freedoms to ignore it or greatly expand on it (huge industry stars like Naotoshi Shida, for example).

I appreciate where you're coming from, and your point totally applies to live action film where a great deal can change due to all kinds of variables, but it's the standard industry term because it's just too linearly intertwined in the animation process to bother separating. Once you do, you end up delving deep into presumptions, and that's no good for anyone. The way an episode is framed on paper is 99% what you see on your screen at the end, so that's what's used with regards to the cinematography. Once you touch on anything regarding movement within those frames, then you're off into the key animation/animation supervisor positions.

Hope that helps~!

That's very helpful, thanks.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 19

General thoughts: while I believe this episode is quite enjoyable, it has a really bad habit of SLOWING DOWN the plot, which is really common in this arc. I get that Kaio's puns were present in the manga, too, but at least there were no robots, no Arlian people, no snake princesses and no bland orphans, therefore the manga didn't have the need to speed up the story, unlike in the anime. This happens when you waste time for unneeded fillers. Anyway, Kaio is a nice character (it's a shame nowadays he's such a douchebag), and his hobbies are quite... peculiar. Finally we get some neat interaction between Gohan and Piccolo, which raises an important question: WHEN did Goku tell Gohan Piccolo was becoming a good guy, considering that Gohan had never met him before and ALSO considering that Goku was still suspicious towards him back in episode 3? This occured in the manga as well, but it's a bit puzzling. Furthermore, Goku being proud of his Saiyan origins makes us wonder WHY he keeps repeating "I'm an earthling, not a Saiyan" in movies 3, 4 and in episode 28 of GT (which I shouldn't count, since nothing makes sense in GT). Again, this aspect was never explained that much.

Entertainment factor: well directed and pretty much enjoyable.

Animation: Takenouchi's storyboard is not that bad, but it's also a bit zigzagging and lacks of that sort of atmosphere we witnessed in ep. 15. Art-wise, Takeuchi's corrections are nearly absent for some reason, thus it's possible to trace individual artstyles, such as Yoko Iizuka, whose style appears quite often in this episode. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ah-BF_eWBdo/T ... z19-05.jpg However, during the 1st half we can still find some rushed-looking art here and there. In terms of animation, it's not the best animated Seigasha entry, maybe due to the limited presence of Shimanuki and Hisada, who had provided key animation on movie 1. The entire segment of Goku chasing Bubbles is mostly okay, whilst reusing animation sometimes (also during Shimanuki's cut near the end), while Piccolo and Gohan's training starts off well with Hisada's key animation (great timing, although I dislike how they repeated the impact several times), but then we can spot the quality decrease as soon as Iizuka steps in. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 6033265664

Music: much like the previous episode, I kinda enjoyed its soundtrack placement. Yeah, they used M723 twice, with the first time being slowed down and low-pitched, so... smart move??? Either way, by now there's no longer need for me to comment on M727: I guess they like using it that much, but I really don't.

Overall score: not great, not terrible. 6,5/10.

[TrunksTrevelyan0064]

Questions: I have a question. What is Gohan doing when he starts listing animals in episode 20? And why does he do it? I never understood that.

I looked this up last year when I saw that scene, and ended up in this old Kanzenshuu (Daizenshuu EX) thread.

Apparently it is Shiritori, "a Japanese word game in which the players are required to say a word which begins with the final kana of the previous word. No distinction is made between hiragana, katakana or kanji. "Shiritori" literally means "taking the end" or "taking the rear"."

Still seems like a silly random thing for Gohan to do, but there ya go.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

#16 hot garbage, boring and a total slog again found myself playing on my 3ds while the episode was playing 1/10. Garbage.

Preface- Watching via the Japanese language, most of the time however I will be referring to mostly dub names and terms they're just too ingrained and just easier for me to write. When talking about the JPN cast I will mostly be referring to their char names since I only ever watch anime dubbed so I am not similar at all with Japanese VA's beyond the big one's like Nozawa Horikawa etc.

#17

FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY.

After countless episodes of nothing but shere slog we get this gem, tbh the episode might not even be that good but after the slog that we just witnessed it seems fantastic!

Episode starts of with Piccolo confronting Gohan and basically nothings changed.... Yup we just wasted ALL that time on pointless Gohan filler crap and it didn't amount to anything Gohan is still this whiny ass kid. If they're gonna waste our time at least make it worthwhile jeez. This episode in hindsight makes those dreadful batches of episodes feel ever worse, crazy thing is as bad as those episodes were they aren't even the lowest point of Z (that's all reserved for Cell arc boy I am dreading getting to that arc).

Anyway now that's off my chest, we get the cursory "hey Goku is still on snake way/serpent road" don't forget that kids. Then off to the look out and this is where the episode truly shines.

Getting to see the rest of the Z warriors train was cool but that imaginary Saiyan scenario like how X-men practice fighting was too rad, despite knowing it's fake you definitely felt the tension especially that bit when Kirllin was screaming like those were some painful screams*

Side note: The faux Saiyan designs were ugly! Glad Vegeta and Nappa didn't look like that!

Entertainment Factor:
I didn't touch my 3ds so guess that means I was entertained! Honestly haven't been this invested since #5 which felt a loooooong time ago now. Finally things are getting somewhere.

Animation:
Second half better but the start of the episode where Gohan vs Piccolo that zoom in three times shaky crap was so awful like what the hell were they thinking? It's like did Paul W. S. Anderson animate this?

Japanese cast
Kami & Mr Popo... Holy crap. I was not expecting them to sound THAT deep especially the latter. I was not ready for that at all! Anytime Popo spoke I laughed so badly, I was not prepared at all, caught me well off guard.

*again I hear this performance then think back to Krillin in the latest DBS episodes and it's night & day like why do the VA's sound so off in modern DB compared?

Overall score and opinion:
After episodes and episodes of tedious boredom when something remotely interesting comes along you take it and roll with it, #17 delivers some much needed intrigue and adds some tension as we audience get to feel the gravitas of what's about to occur since Raditz happened ages ago you just left thinking saw there's an alien invasion apparently gonna happening but here Gohan hanging out with some orphans.... Anyway solid episode 8/10.