Dragon Ball Z - Episodes 16-20 - Discussion Thread [Rewatch - Week 4]

[TrunksTrevelyan0064]

Episodes covered: Dragon Ball Z 16-20 ("Dragon Ball 169-173")


EPISODE 16
* I just did a DB+Z rewatch in 2017, but for some reason I remember this episode a lot better than most other filler ones. I guess I paid more attention to it because I had only seen it once before?
* Interesting to see Takeshi Kusao show up wayyyyy before his most iconic Dragon Ball character does. Just listening to his performance here makes me look forward to Trunks' appearance!
* Fun to see Gohan laughing and playing around, as any kid should do rather than be thrust into a fight to the death with evil aliens. Though it does seem slightly out-of-character for Gohan to be so willing to help the other kids steal food and stuff. Y'know what could've been an interesting Boo arc filler episode? Gohan running into these "delinquents" again as the Great Saiyaman.
* I do like the twists here; it's rare for "heroes" to abandon their comrades in Dragon Ball, but you can argue that it may have been the right thing to do in this case. And Gohan actively turning away from home is pretty powerful, though I don't know if original-manga-Gohan would've made the same decision. Guess we'll never know.
* Piccolo doesn't feel evil in this moment, but rather very much like an ally; probably because Gohan looks him straight in the face without any hint of fear. It feels as though they've already formed some sort of bond, or at least an understanding.

EPISODE 17
* Another theme I really like: that "climbing the tower" theme. It's nice that Z still features some "OG DB" tunes and didn't get a completely different soundtrack.
* Pretty lame that even in filler Chiaotzu gets nothing to do whatsoever. At least Yamcha didn't get the same treatment; always cool to see him team up with Tenshinhan. Ahhh I am so looking forward to playing as these dudes in FighterZ.
* Cool concept and scenario overall, but these random Saiyans don't have anything going for them besides serving as a good measuring stick to see just how large of a gap there is between them and the Earthlings, making the approaching threat that much scarier.

EPISODE 18
* Yeah... I don't really buy that whole "Kakarrot's spacepod happens to be right there and still has energy left after 20+ years", but I guess its ability to create a fake moon makes sense as a way for the Saiyans to empower their infant warriors. I do like "feral Gohan" as a concept, especially because it gives Piccolo some real challenge during his training for a change. And though I'm not fond of Gohan going Ôzaru again, the throwback to the Bankoku Bikkuri Sho is pretty neat.
* Oh hey Kame House! How is it that, in over 10 filler episodes, they didn't devote so much as a single scene to the Dragon Ball-collecting adventures of Bulma & company? I guess those characters weren't deemed interesting or relevant enough? :'(

EPISODE 19
* I have no words for how amazing Kaiô is. I've been studying Japanese a little bit, but I really do need to get to the point where I can properly appreciate his puns.
* It says something that Kaiô was impressed by Goku's jump height even before he took off his weighted clothing.
* Now Goku and Gohan are both training under mentors that said "You will have to surpass me before you can hope to stand a chance against the Saiyans!"
* Y'know, you can laugh at Kaiô enjoying driving around such a tiny planet, but he does have an infinitely long road without traffic to do said driving on.
* Kaiô should've reserved that gyoza pun for when Chiaotzu shows up.
* The Bubbles chase probably does go on a bit too long, but I am pleasantly surprised that it was concluded in a single episode. Also keep in mind that this episode serves as our introduction to Kaiô's planet and its properties, so it's nice to just have some fun exploring that.

EPISODE 20
* I wonder why Gregory was named as such. Any clear reason behind it? Is there a Japanese cricket-related word that sounds similar, or something?
* Did I just see Yamcha fire a Dodonpa? xD
* I don't really feel like addressing everything the Saiyan history lesson may or may not contradict (because it doesn't really bother me), but I forgot that it came with an insert song; that was a neat surprise.
* This is the second time in Z that Tenshinhan has thought to himself "Goku, I can't wait to see you again". Yeah, uhhh, about that... Give it a couple years.


- How do you feel about Joji Yanami's Kaio? If you're not watching in Japanese, switch over for a preview! Yanami was unfortunately ill during Dragon Ball Super, which was many people's first experience with this character in the original language. Does hearing the original performance from a healthy Yanami change your opinion of his portrayal in any significant way if you were previously disappointed?

My first introduction to Jôji Yanami was probably the first Budokai game, which kept the original voices in the European version. At the time, I still preferred the dub voices, but over the years my appreciation of the original has vastly outgrown any nostalgia I had for the dub. That said, I was never all too familiar with Yanami's Kaiô because he was never a playable character in the video games (blasphemy!). Only last year did I actually properly watch Dragon Ball (and Z) in its original language for the first time.

His performance in Super was clearly not what it once was, but I refused to let that diminish my respect for the guy, especially after learning he was ill. If anything, I admired his drive to still do voice work in his condition. I was all for letting him continue if it still gave him joy. Jôji Yanami is a legend.

- This marks the end of the lengthy batch of filler. How do you feel about them as a whole? Did it feel like a worthwhile build up to the Saiyans' arrival, or is it transparently filler content?

Given that it was so lengthy (probably too long for a newcomer, but tolerable on a rewatch), it was bound to be a mixed bag. Some good, some bad, some meh. As far as Gohan's development is concerned I definitely prefer the anime; he's supposed to be a main character, so we need some time to get to know him and grow attached to him. And while it's nice to skip straight to the "good part" in the manga, I do like the anime's sense of anticipation. At first the threat still feels very far away, so we're less afraid of it. But as it creeps closer, as time begins to run out... Oh god, will we be okay?!


Favorite character: Kaiô, no contest. He is amazing and his "Prrrng, prrrng - k'chak" (phone noises) is the greatest line in all of Dragon Ball.
Previous favorites: Raditz, Gohan, the saber-toothed tiger.

[Taisa732]

Questions: I have a question. What is Gohan doing when he starts listing animals in episode 20? And why does he do it? I never understood that.

I looked this up last year when I saw that scene, and ended up in this old Kanzenshuu (Daizenshuu EX) thread.

Apparently it is Shiritori, "a Japanese word game in which the players are required to say a word which begins with the final kana of the previous word. No distinction is made between hiragana, katakana or kanji. "Shiritori" literally means "taking the end" or "taking the rear"."

Still seems like a silly random thing for Gohan to do, but there ya go.

Thank you so much!
Now that you mention it, they do play Shiritori in chapter 7 of Super.

But it's still a very random scene even knowing it.

[thelittlethings]

~Episode 16~
Language: Japanese

General Thoughts: It was a very cute episode, it was nice to see Gohan be a child for a while even if he was up to no good stealing. Chiko (baby chichi) was adorable, the facial expressions used on the different children at different key points made it a little more interesting. I love how polite Gohan was when talking to them explaining how he hasn't spoken to people in a while, that's why he was struggling to communicate with them. I think the ep really showed how young he actually is which again was nice to see definitely better than a few of the previous episodes. I really couldn't get over Piegero , who to me just looked like Goku and Yamcha's love child who turn into a little rebel just kept making me smile.

Entertainment Factor: It was more entertaining than the previous episodes as I said above it was nice to see Gohan socializing with kids his own age. The pacing was fine and I think I was entertained throughout just to see Gohan be a child instead of a battle warrior. I feel like the end section with him crying outside his moms house could have used him thinking/reflecting on his dad being dead or the fact he is being forced by “uncle piccolo” to train to beat this Saiyans arriving to kill everyone rather than just the children he had only just met but piccolo did get him to recite what his mission was at the end so I guess that’s a good throw to it.

Animation: The fighting scenes where fine, nothing that blew my mind. I quite liked the close up when Gohan was running down the mountain and on the field back home you could tell so much emotion in his face, he was just so excited and happy to finally be close to home.

Question: Am I the only one who sees Piegero looking like he is the love child of Goku and Yamcha?




~Episode 17~
Language: Japanese

General Thoughts: Piccolo's relentless bullying with an electric shock was amusing to start the episode. Then going onto the undead Saiyan element was cool. I liked the whole set up going into the room, the layout kind of set the tone for what the “room” was going to be like. When the group attacking started happening was about the interesting part, the realization the attacks did not work with the echoey laughing was creepy as hell.

Entertainment Factor: The little slow pan around while Yamcha, Tien, and Kuririn looked concerned was quite a nice touch. When Yamcha and Tien did the combined attack and created the massive indend in the ground, I was slightly impressed. The disco effect deaths with the neon lights were cool. How quick Chazou always gets wrecked but is still happy Ten is signing him up for doing “mind training” for another 6 months blows my mind.

Animation: Nothing really stood out to me animation wise, the impact shots were ok and the smoke and impact effects were cool but nothing was like OMG THIS IS AMAZING.

Question: Does the room of “space and time” have a cool entering symbol? Also is Kuririn the same height has Chazou?




~Episode 18~
Language: Japanese

General Thoughts: I quite enjoyed that episode, maybe its because it was most Gohan. There were little moments that made me giggle like Gohan being triggered by a pineapple?! Because that's a thing. Also, emo rebel cat Gohan mode was pretty funny as well with his normally fixed hair shaking and rattling. Seeing Goku's pod was really cool, I like the touch of vines growing all over it but its still operating to wake Goku up. The end of the episode was brilliant with Goku meeting the real Kaio.

Entertainment Factor: Gohan throughout that ep was funny in human form and piccolo dealing with him in monkey form was entertaining the whole fake moon trigger. I liked Bulmas comment “we haven't seen one in a while” nice little throwback to the fact the moon has been destroyed (twice now?!). I might be alone on this but when Nozawa does the “ckkk” sounds when struggling and moving on kaio’s planet makes me so happy. I love those sounds and seeing the eyebrow twitching is brilliant to me. Goku copying bubbles completely crack's me up, especially the sounds towards the end where you can hear Goku actually struggling and half giving up with making the sounds.

Animation: I really liked the piccolo peel apart animation, that was pretty impressive to me with him and his copy flying either side of the screen. There are a few close up hand shots that were pretty nice also.

Question: Does anyone else like “ckk” sounds and twitchy eyebrows?




~Episode 19~
Language: Japanese

General Thoughts: Seeing Goku speeding up each time he was close to catching bubbles was a nice way to show the improvements he was making over the time. I really don’t like puns so the whole pun thing doesn’t make sense to me. When Goku did his fake laugh though was incredible, I think I might adopt this method in my own everyday lifestyle. Fake belly laughs at all the stupidity. I really am getting a little fed up with how relentlessly beaten Gohan is getting yet he is keeping up the politeness to piccolo. He really is a saint.

Entertainment Factor: Goku’s facial expressions and sounds again while chasing bubbles was really entertaining, he does the cutest grabby hands. Also when he catches him its super cute.

Animation: I love how bubbles turns into a little tornado when he is close to being caught and Goku's facial expressions and overall actions in this episode were pretty cool.




~Episode 20~
Language: Japanese

General Thoughts: Nice episode, I like seeing everyone so close to their goal. Goku underestimating Gregory was quite amusing. Gregory using “whippersnapper” makes him seem like such an old man and have much he went on to Goku about not respecting his elders. Gohan falling off the cliff face just reminded me of when he fell and was crying on the branch stuck until Goku got him. I really liked how Goku got kaio a chair for him to tell the story of when the Kami of planet Vegeta caused the planet to explode with rocks(?!) Piccolo seems a little less brutal in this episode in comparison to the earlier ones which is nice.

Entertainment Factor: Seeing everyone progression is brilliant and then seeing Yajirobe did hardly anything but eating food. Gregory tiny little desk and bowl set should get an award, so cute. In comparison to the earlier episodes I feel like this is pushing nicely towards the Saiyans getting to earth, caught everyone in the episode and the episode actually didn't feel long.

Animation: Goku’s chasing and Gregory movements were nice. Gohan’s reaction to realizing he is speeding up was cool also and the twitching within his hands when he was hanging off the cliff. His attempt at getting back up was also interesting.


In regards to the filler episodes, honestly you could tell they were just filler it hasn't built up any excitement for the saiyans coming. I feel myself saying “why haven't they arrived yet” Its been cute seeing goku messing up and gohan becoming a “man” if you could say that but I just want the main stuff to happen at this point.

[gaberparadiso]

Episode 20

General thoughts: again, much like the previous entry, this is another quite enjoyable episode, with a more or less similar plot. However, it feels much funnier than the previous episode: I loved Kaio laughing at bad puns while Gregory is talking, or Yajirobe randomly biting Krillin's butt. Even the scene with Gohan talking nonsensical words to Piccolo was kinda amusing. As a whole, Goku's training section only suffers a couple of changes: just replacing Bubbles with Gregory and chasing with hitting with a mullet. And yes, we have Kaio telling Goku about the history of Tsufurians and Saiyans, which raises an interesting question: since Kaio is basically a god, who knows almost everything, WHY didn't he know that much about the destruction of Vegeta? How come wasn't he aware of Freezer's presence? I might buy Raditz not knowing that, but not Kaio, who would order Goku to stay away from him in ep. 52. I mean, he undeniably has info about Freezer, therefore I believe he should be aware of him destroying Vegeta. Despite this nitpicking of mine, it's another decent episode.

Entertainment factor: again, pretty enjoyable episode.

Animation: while Hashimoto's storyboarding is better than his output in ep. 13, I still don't find it that spectacular. He may have a fair sense of perspective, and the manga-like panels at the end are plain awesome, but his storyboarding is a tad bland. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 8392854529 Animation-wise, it's an Ebisawa episode, so I don't have particularly great expectations. Unlike his previous entry, though, Hiroshi Takeuchi animates a large portion of the action, including Gohan's training, Krillin and the others sparring, Kaio's flashback and the ending bit. This would be his last key animation on DB, and he would reappear once again in ep. 282 (Studio Live). Anyway, I'm totally not a fan of how he draws babies and/or children. https://twitter.com/DBanimators/status/ ... 4695365635 While Ebisawa's action is conservative and mediocre, but he puts some speed on it, so I guess it's okay...

Music: I have to admit the music placements are getting a lot better in these recent episodes. VARIETY. Simple as that. Super Divine Poison sounds great as always, Yajirobe's Revenge fits the ending damn well and we finally hear the very first DBZ insert song, SHURA-IRO NO SENSHI, played during Kaio's flashback.

Overall score: 6,5/10, fair enough.

Now, to answer your questions:

1) Yanami as Kaio sounds great. I think it was a rather sensible casting especially for the flashback scene, because he also voices the narrator. Hearing his DBZ performance, however, doesn't change my opinion about how underwhelming he was in DBS. I know he was ill, but considering Kaio is usually portrayed as a douchebag nowadays, it becomes quite an issue. WE GET IT, GOKU CAUSED YOUR DEATH. STOP WHINING LIKE VEGETA.

2) Tough one: I don't have a particularly positive opinion about these fillers, because we didn't learn anything new about our characters. The whole Gohan saga feels like an incredible waste of time, including the robot and the orphans stuff, because Gohan started off as a pampered and coward crybaby, and is STILL a pampered and coward crybaby. His training with Piccolo demonstrates this: he is STILL scared, even though Piccolo is threatening him for his own sake. If you ask me about a better character moment, that's Gohan from EPISODE 160, in which he transforms into a SSJ. Now THAT was a really credible way to describe Gohan's improvement through his past experiences. He actually LEARNS from his mistakes, that's why I liked that version from the anime a lot better than the manga version. NOT IN THESE FILLERS, since after several months in the wild, he SUDDENLY decides he wants to go home. WHY? He should've had that sort of doubt MONTHS BEFORE. And I know what you're thinking: he's only 4-5 years old. Well, then they shouldn't have focused so much on a nearly non-existent character evolution. Nonetheless, my biggest disappointment is the lack of genuine character moments. Episode 12 failed miserably at showing Tenshinhan and Lunch's """"""relationship"""""", because they displayed how it will NEVER work: the former simply doesn't care (he should be pissed off if Chaozu gets hurt, right?) and the latter is officially a stalker. If you love someone, you can't stalk him/her. What I wanted to see is putting two or more character back to back, so that they have some interactions. It would've been a fine way of spending filler time. Lastly, most of these episodes are SLOW and BORING, and maybe not that well animated. So yeah, I don't find these fillers that necessary for the plot itself.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Preface- Watching via the Japanese language, most of the time however I will be referring to mostly dub names and terms they're just too ingrained and just easier for me to write. When talking about the JPN cast I will mostly be referring to their char names since I only ever watch anime dubbed so I am not similar at all with Japanese VA's beyond the big one's like Nozawa Horikawa etc.

#18

This. This is show I remember loving.

This episode was truly fantastic, best episode yet by FAR.

Unlike the filler sub plots these two actually went somewhere! Goku finally reached his goal and Gohan showed his potential and boy was this tense and thrilling! Seeing Piccolo on the ropes and worried the tension and directing was superb! And I loved the moon twist as I completely forgot about it! When it didn't blast away I was like holy shit yeah it's a projection! This explains everything!

Goku reaching Kaio's planet, it is funny seeing him struggle with the gravity now but nowadays he just casually hopes by ahh Goku you have come along way! Him thinking Bubbles was Kaio just hilarious! ahh Goku you shmuck!

Entertainment Factor:
High. Was enagaged from start to finish and my mind never wondered from what I was watched!

Animation:
No problems good looking episodes, direction was good seems like the best things can get!

Japanese cast:
I am listening to this and crying as to what has happened to these guys in modern DB, they sound so amazing here! Nozawa as Goku deals with the gravity my god she sold that scene so much just the noises she was making truly truly terrific. People were NOT kidding they said the JPN cast were AMAZING in their prime.

Overall score and opinion:
A fantastic episode with in my opinion not a single flaw, great direction and use of music and fantastic vocal performances earn this the first 10/10 episode. Yup I went there! Flawless.

[alakazam^]

It's been great reading these threads and, while I understand it's not the point, I was wondering what some of you think about where current Super episodes are at production-wise compared to the Z portion you're at. Not in a overall Super vs Z but, for instance, there's a new episode airing today/tomorrow, what do you feel from it compared to the feel of these 20 episodes you've been watching?

Questions: I have a question. What is Gohan doing when he starts listing animals in episode 20? And why does he do it? I never understood that.

I looked this up last year when I saw that scene, and ended up in this old Kanzenshuu (Daizenshuu EX) thread.

Apparently it is Shiritori, "a Japanese word game in which the players are required to say a word which begins with the final kana of the previous word. No distinction is made between hiragana, katakana or kanji. "Shiritori" literally means "taking the end" or "taking the rear"."

Still seems like a silly random thing for Gohan to do, but there ya go.

Thank you so much!
Now that you mention it, they do play Shiritori in chapter 7 of Super.

But it's still a very random scene even knowing it.

I think this scene went for a double gag, which makes it really enjoyable: having Gohan vent his frustration in a childish way AND losing his own game (coupled with the scene abruptly cutting at that point).

Japanese cast:
I am listening to this and crying as to what has happened to these guys in modern DB, they sound so amazing here! Nozawa as Goku deals with the gravity my god she sold that scene so much just the noises she was making truly truly terrific. People were NOT kidding they said the JPN cast were AMAZING in their prime.

I'm not sure this is fair, to be honest. They are awesome during Z but what's wrong with their performance in Super? I don't feel age should dictate what one is able to do but a 20-year gap brings inevitable change. Even so, they remain very good actors, no one can say that's their "prime", if there is even such a thing.

Also, we have to take into account past muffled audio (if you're not listening to the broadcast audio), voice effects (echoes, Oozaru roar and whatnot), acting direction and such. They probably don't even sound the same in the Boo arc.

[Lord Beerus]

Episodes 16-20

Language: Japanese

General Thoughts: A character called “Pigero” is voiced by the same seiyuu who voice Piccolo. Well played, Toei. Well played.

So Pigero has been helping save orphans, but they end he just decided to give them up to the authorities as that would be better for them? Huh? So what was the point of that episode?

Seeing Gohan’s trial and tribulations in preparing for the Saiyans were nice, but also feels a little repetitive as the arc has progressed. Scenarios like the moon that was projected from Goku spaceship pod felt pointlessly tacked on. Still greatly appreciate the effort from Toei to expand on Gohan’s characterisation.

I really enjoy the aspect of Krillin, Tien, Yamcha and the others fighting the illusionary Saiyans. Provide them with the much-needed atmosphere for the kind of battle they will be facing quite soon, and gives them more of an incentive to train even harder than before knowing much of challenge they’ll be up against.

King Kai is hilarious. I just love his bad humour. And I love even more how much Goku entertains him with even more bad humour. Jōji Yanami is just perfectly cast as him.

The backstory on the Saiyans was a cool addition. It helped add to the grandeur of the Saiyans and aided in making Vegeta and Nappa appears as greater scope villains by default

Entertainment Factor: A decent batch of episodes. King Kai is a wonderful character and Yanami fits his character like a glove. Gohan's adventures in the wilderness feel a bit dragged out. I enjoyed how the supporting cast got more focus on their training with Kami and Mr Popo.

Animation: Nothing really stood out for. But as usual, whenever Studio Live took on control of an episode, the art would get noticeably uglier.

[alakazam^]

General Thoughts: A character called “Pigero” is voiced by the same seiyuu who voice Piccolo. Well played, Toei. Well played.

You mean Trunks, right?

[Lord Beerus]

General Thoughts: A character called “Pigero” is voiced by the same seiyuu who voice Piccolo. Well played, Toei. Well played.

You mean Trunks, right?

Ah, you're right. Got the Seiyuus totally mixed up.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

After the high of #18 I completely forgot I still had two more episodes to watch.... whoops. I was all happy thinking I was caught up... lol.

[Ajay]

Finally catching up with writing up my thoughts.


Episode 17

For whatever reason, I remembered enjoying this episode far more than I apparently do in reality. In my head, I think I conflated the little cutaway scenes of them training at God's Temple with them vanishing off into a bizarro dream land with bland-looking Saiyans. It's nice to see Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chiaotzu training, but it lacks the martial arts flavour that I was not only expecting, but had been shown in the aforementioned little clips over the past few episodes.

The animation from Shindo Pro is surprisingly static. I don't think it helps that Osamu Kasai's work is very similar to his output on episode 2 - nice storyboard, but... pretty lacking in actually directing that onto the screen in an engaging or interesting way. I think the only section that's particularly striking is towards the end where they have visions of their deaths. It's very stylish, and I think it leads quite nicely into the scene that follows where they pledge to get stronger.

Not a particularly entertaining episode, but it's far from offensive.


Episode 18

I absolutely adore this episode with every fibre of my being. Even though it's a total repeat of episode 8 in many ways (to the extent that they reused Shida's Oozaru transformation), it's insanely tense. This is much in thanks to the director who's been the shining star of Z so far: Yoshihiro Ueda.

I really adore his use of colour. Every scene in this episode is drenched in really distinctive hues, and this appears to be a running theme for him. Kei let me know some absolutely fascinating information about the background artists' thoughts on his obession with colour. In reference to a Cell arc episode he directed:

"Ueda, the director of this episode, is also the one who did the recent TV special. He's fond of changing colours, so in this episode, the tone of the screen changes every time Cell Juniors use techniques (which forces background artists and cel painters to actually to match colours)"

Poor background artists ^.^

As far as animation goes, Naotoshi Shida and Taiichiro Ohara are the stars of the show, as is the norm with Last House episodes in this period. Their fast-paced action delivers on all of the tension and excitement that Ueda's trying to sell. Impressive stuff!


Episode 19

The actual narrative content of this episode is mostly based around Goku being a total goof for 20 minutes, and I absolutely love that, but it does mean it hinges very much on the animation, and thankfully Seigasha are here in all of their glory to deliver.

Shimanuki's draws some terrific facial expressions, and in general, the body language he produces is suitably comedic, which I guess you don't often see many animators focused on. Puts him on his own level in my eyes.

Very entertaining episode. Nozawa, in particular, has been absolutely blowing my socks off with her performance next to Yanami's Kaio. They're so hilarious playing off of one another.


Episode 20

Much like the last episode, this is mostly about Goku being goofy while he trains. It features an absolutely outstanding Kikuchi piece that's sadly unreleased. Good ol' slide whistles.

There's the infamous filler scenes of the Saiyans' history that's just bizarre and very hard to sit through as someone acutely aware of what's made-up anime lore and what's not. Can't say I'm a big fan!

Animation-wise, this is a bit unique in that it's one of the few Studio Live episodes in Z to feature only two key animators. With one of them being the supervisor of the episode too, it's a dream for someone like me trying to work out styles. Finding Hiroshi Takeuchi's work was a real joy. It makes me think of a world where Hiroyuki Imaishi and Studio Trigger are in charge of Dragon Ball. If only!

Not a bad episode, but it's mostly just a second take on the last one, so I can't say it's all too memorable.