DB Super Exciting Guide: Story
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DB Super Exciting Guide: Story
It's about as exciting as a lecture on metaphysics.
Unless you're passionately in love with metaphysics...
In which case you might say it's about as exciting as a lecture on something other than metaphysics.
Most of it is information we've seen organized in a number of similar ways all too many times. Goku's power levels, whom he fought and when, his age throughout the series, etc. No doubt the backbone of this book is Goku. Which makes it more or less like the other previously released guides.
They changed it up this time by stating which fights happen when NOT during tanks but during the kanzenbans AND the animation. There's an interesting and easy to understand chart on a single page that lists all of Goku's canon 'fights' AND with what move the match was won. I thought adding that last detail was neat.
Regarding Tenshinhan, the debate will continue to rage. He's listed HERE as an Earthling. So have at it Daiz VS PURE manga fans.
The tail end HOWEVER, IS interesting in that it includes an interview with Toriyama.
Always fun.
I'll summarize here because tonight is LOST night and I'm sure another fan will do it word for word soon enough.
Q. How'd you create Goku?
A. Toriyama says he was watching a lot of Bruce Lee & Jackie Chan KF films at the time. He was also watching Saiyuuki (he does not indicate which of its many versions Chinese OR Japanese) and thought it would be cool to combine them into one. He says the goal of Saiyuuki was to reach Tenjiku (India) which was a kinda hard concept to work with so he decided to change the ultimate goal into the DBalls. zHe notes the vast difference in where the story ended up.
Fuck me up the ass and call me a bitch. He's going to explain the blonde hair.
Q. Why does Goku get blonde hair when he turns SS?
A. Toriyama says it's really kinda simple. He only uses one assistant (very rare for a mangaka) Mr. Matsuyama. When Goku became stronger Toriyama was looking for a way to express his strength and when they talked it over, they decided that by making his hair blonde, they'd kill two birds with one stone.
1. Matsuyama could save time by not having to fill in Goku's black hair which took long to dry.
2. He would look phsyically very different.
TORIYAMA ADDS!!!!!!! It became well known that SSJ was 50x stronger than the normal Goku but this became a mountain out of a molehill. As the author, he really intended him to just be 10x stronger than he previously was.
WOW.....
3. How did you think of training for characters?
A. He didn't really think of anything too hard. He got a lot of inspiration from things like the training scenes of Drunken Master. He thinks that Roshi's training for proper greetings and study were the most difficult. He notes that he's afraid of heights and that he'd hate to have to go through the Karin Tower training.
4. How did you think up the Kame Hame Ha?
A. First he says that he actually tried a number of poses when he was alone and chose which was the coolest. As for the name, as good DB fans know, he relates the tale of how his wife came up with it jokingly. He says he's frequently asked whether or not he got inspiration from any pro wrestling (K1-ish) stuff. He says while he really likes KF flicks, he really doesn't have any interest in wrestling and such.
His 5 Fav Battles
1. Goku VS Piccolo Daimaou
Reason: He says, honestly, he's forgotten most of the story but this was the first time he took down a truly terrifying enemy. That's why he loves it best. It also helped him determine the flow of the story beyond that point.
2. Chibi Trunks VS Satan
Reason: He wonders if it's okay to say 'Just because I like Mr. Satan a ton and he's in it'. That and it has a nice conclusion.
3. Goku VS Recoom (whatever they call him these days)
Reason: More than it being a duel between two people, Toriyama loves that the feeling that the Goku we all waited so long for finally arrived! He thinks he might get some heat for saying so, but it was for that very scene that he made the Freeza arc to that point, so very long.
4. TIE
Krillin VS Bacterian
&
Gotenks VS Evil Buu
Reason: We've heard this many times before but he likes these silly battles more than serious ones. He thinks silly stories are the best.
5. Goku VS Freeza
Reason: If for nothing less the appearance of the SS form and fulfilling his promise to his assistant. He was really pleased with the result.
Q. What's the trick to winning battles [in the DB world]?
A. Toriyama says it all comes down to 'ki', the size of it and the ability to control it. He says it includes several forms: genki, yuuki & shouki (energy, bravery & true character). You can only train your muscles to a certain point, it's 'ki' that carries you beyond that and what helped Goku come closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.
Q. Who would you like to be friends with [of your characters]? What would you do with them?
A. He says they all have really strong characters and some of them are downright dangerous so he isn't really interested in making friends with any in reality BUT if he had to choose it would be this five:
1. Bulma- Says it's selfish but if he became friends with her she'd probably give him an Air Car and other cool inventions.
2. Gohan- He's not obnoxious, carries himself properly and does his best.
3. Dende- Same reason as Gohan.
4. Roshi- They share perverted interests.
5. Krillin- Because he's probably the character with the most common sense and he'd be easy to get along with.
There you have it.
Oh there's also a section which rates Goku's attributes throughout the series with stars. Didn't see anywhere that said Toriyama had input. Doubt it.
Well 6 bucks for the answer to the mystery of the blonde hair.
Yeah...it was worth it
Sorry for the shitty job. Now to see if Smokezilla shows up this week.
Unless you're passionately in love with metaphysics...
In which case you might say it's about as exciting as a lecture on something other than metaphysics.
Most of it is information we've seen organized in a number of similar ways all too many times. Goku's power levels, whom he fought and when, his age throughout the series, etc. No doubt the backbone of this book is Goku. Which makes it more or less like the other previously released guides.
They changed it up this time by stating which fights happen when NOT during tanks but during the kanzenbans AND the animation. There's an interesting and easy to understand chart on a single page that lists all of Goku's canon 'fights' AND with what move the match was won. I thought adding that last detail was neat.
Regarding Tenshinhan, the debate will continue to rage. He's listed HERE as an Earthling. So have at it Daiz VS PURE manga fans.
The tail end HOWEVER, IS interesting in that it includes an interview with Toriyama.
Always fun.
I'll summarize here because tonight is LOST night and I'm sure another fan will do it word for word soon enough.
Q. How'd you create Goku?
A. Toriyama says he was watching a lot of Bruce Lee & Jackie Chan KF films at the time. He was also watching Saiyuuki (he does not indicate which of its many versions Chinese OR Japanese) and thought it would be cool to combine them into one. He says the goal of Saiyuuki was to reach Tenjiku (India) which was a kinda hard concept to work with so he decided to change the ultimate goal into the DBalls. zHe notes the vast difference in where the story ended up.
Fuck me up the ass and call me a bitch. He's going to explain the blonde hair.
Q. Why does Goku get blonde hair when he turns SS?
A. Toriyama says it's really kinda simple. He only uses one assistant (very rare for a mangaka) Mr. Matsuyama. When Goku became stronger Toriyama was looking for a way to express his strength and when they talked it over, they decided that by making his hair blonde, they'd kill two birds with one stone.
1. Matsuyama could save time by not having to fill in Goku's black hair which took long to dry.
2. He would look phsyically very different.
TORIYAMA ADDS!!!!!!! It became well known that SSJ was 50x stronger than the normal Goku but this became a mountain out of a molehill. As the author, he really intended him to just be 10x stronger than he previously was.
WOW.....
3. How did you think of training for characters?
A. He didn't really think of anything too hard. He got a lot of inspiration from things like the training scenes of Drunken Master. He thinks that Roshi's training for proper greetings and study were the most difficult. He notes that he's afraid of heights and that he'd hate to have to go through the Karin Tower training.
4. How did you think up the Kame Hame Ha?
A. First he says that he actually tried a number of poses when he was alone and chose which was the coolest. As for the name, as good DB fans know, he relates the tale of how his wife came up with it jokingly. He says he's frequently asked whether or not he got inspiration from any pro wrestling (K1-ish) stuff. He says while he really likes KF flicks, he really doesn't have any interest in wrestling and such.
His 5 Fav Battles
1. Goku VS Piccolo Daimaou
Reason: He says, honestly, he's forgotten most of the story but this was the first time he took down a truly terrifying enemy. That's why he loves it best. It also helped him determine the flow of the story beyond that point.
2. Chibi Trunks VS Satan
Reason: He wonders if it's okay to say 'Just because I like Mr. Satan a ton and he's in it'. That and it has a nice conclusion.
3. Goku VS Recoom (whatever they call him these days)
Reason: More than it being a duel between two people, Toriyama loves that the feeling that the Goku we all waited so long for finally arrived! He thinks he might get some heat for saying so, but it was for that very scene that he made the Freeza arc to that point, so very long.
4. TIE
Krillin VS Bacterian
&
Gotenks VS Evil Buu
Reason: We've heard this many times before but he likes these silly battles more than serious ones. He thinks silly stories are the best.
5. Goku VS Freeza
Reason: If for nothing less the appearance of the SS form and fulfilling his promise to his assistant. He was really pleased with the result.
Q. What's the trick to winning battles [in the DB world]?
A. Toriyama says it all comes down to 'ki', the size of it and the ability to control it. He says it includes several forms: genki, yuuki & shouki (energy, bravery & true character). You can only train your muscles to a certain point, it's 'ki' that carries you beyond that and what helped Goku come closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.
Q. Who would you like to be friends with [of your characters]? What would you do with them?
A. He says they all have really strong characters and some of them are downright dangerous so he isn't really interested in making friends with any in reality BUT if he had to choose it would be this five:
1. Bulma- Says it's selfish but if he became friends with her she'd probably give him an Air Car and other cool inventions.
2. Gohan- He's not obnoxious, carries himself properly and does his best.
3. Dende- Same reason as Gohan.
4. Roshi- They share perverted interests.
5. Krillin- Because he's probably the character with the most common sense and he'd be easy to get along with.
There you have it.
Oh there's also a section which rates Goku's attributes throughout the series with stars. Didn't see anywhere that said Toriyama had input. Doubt it.
Well 6 bucks for the answer to the mystery of the blonde hair.
Yeah...it was worth it
Sorry for the shitty job. Now to see if Smokezilla shows up this week.
Last edited by omae no kaasan on Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: DB Super Exciting Guide: Story
Isn't 'Earthling' different to 'human'? You can be an Earthling without being human. Oolong is an Earthling.omae no kaasan wrote:Regarding Tenshinhan, the debate will continue to rage. He's listed HERE as an Earthling. So have at it Daiz VS PURE manga fans.
I like the part about only being able to train your muscles to a certain point, at which point it's ki that takes you beyond.
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Re: DB Super Exciting Guide: Story
Well, he's listed as an Earthling in Daizenshuu 4 too, which is also the first place the whole Three-Eyed alien thing is ever mentioned, that I'm aware of. The idea is that he's an Earthling descended from aliens, so listed him as an Earthling doesn't contradict that.omae no kaasan wrote:Regarding Tenshinhan, the debate will continue to rage. He's listed HERE as an Earthling. So have at it Daiz VS PURE manga fans.
The reason for Super Saiyans having blond hair because it's easier to not have to black in their hair was actually already mentioned by Torishima in Shenlong Times #1. The fact that Toriyama did it for his assistant's sake is new information, though.
Landmark and Forever list events going by the kanzenban (but not the anime as well).
Wait...so SSJ Goku is equal to Goku using Kaio-ken x10, and to Oozaru? Because the x50 thing only applies to Goku's regular power; using the x50 thing, SSJ Goku is only 5x strong than Kaio-ken x10 Goku.TORIYAMA ADDS!!!!!!! It became well known that SSJ was 50x stronger than the normal Goku but this became a mountain out of a molehill. As the author, he really intended him to just be 10x stronger than he previously was.
Anyway, thank a lot for the write-up.
You can also be a human without being an Earthling. Vegeta refers to regular Saiyans as "humans", in contrast to their Oozaru forms, and Ginyu describes himself as "the type of human who can control his battle power".Bussani wrote:Isn't 'Earthling' different to 'human'? You can be an Earthling without being human. Oolong is an Earthling.
Last edited by Herms on Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DB Super Exciting Guide: Story
Wow! Thank you very, very much! Is there any indication in the book that future volumes will come?
And I won't get to watch this episode of LOST until Saturday, so if there isn't any Smokezilla (I'd never heard that before, it took me a second to get it ) there'd better be some nice Other's back-story dammit!
And I won't get to watch this episode of LOST until Saturday, so if there isn't any Smokezilla (I'd never heard that before, it took me a second to get it ) there'd better be some nice Other's back-story dammit!
Well, I don't know how much of an exact translation this was, but he said "known that SSJ was 50x stronger", and that Toriyama ony "intended him to just be 10x stronger". And sine a 10x doesn't really make sense in the manga when you see how much friggin' better Goku did against Freeza in SSj form as compared to Kaio-ken x10. At this point I still think that the SSj transformation equals a 50x increase and it was only Toriyama's intention that it be a 10x increase; but who knows, I'll wait for a word-for-word Herms-quality translation!Herms wrote:Wait...so SSJ Goku is equal to Goku using Kaio-ken x10, and to Oozaru? Because the x50 thing only applies to Goku's regular power; using the x50 thing, SSJ Goku is only 5x strong than Kaio-ken x10 Goku.omae no kaasan wrote:TORIYAMA ADDS!!!!!!! It became well known that SSJ was 50x stronger than the normal Goku but this became a mountain out of a molehill. As the author, he really intended him to just be 10x stronger than he previously was.
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Re: DB Super Exciting Guide: Story
Well, it's still over a month before I go back to Tokyo, and omae no kaasan could translate it better than I could, anyway.SSj_Rambo wrote:At this point I still think that the SSj transformation equals a 50x increase and it was only Toriyama's intention that it be a 10x increase; but who knows, I'll wait for a word-for-word Herms-quality translation! :wink:
Kanzenshuu: Is that place still around?
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We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
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Re: DB Super Exciting Guide: Story
Oh, OK. I'm sure you could just get a scan from Hujio when he gets it, if you want to take a crack at it.Herms wrote:Well, it's still over a month before I go back to Tokyo, and omae no kaasan could translate it better than I could, anyway.SSj_Rambo wrote:At this point I still think that the SSj transformation equals a 50x increase and it was only Toriyama's intention that it be a 10x increase; but who knows, I'll wait for a word-for-word Herms-quality translation!
Oh ya, and when you go back to Japan... UPDATE YOUR BLOG THIS TIME!!
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If it literally translates to intend would not Toriyama’s okay in the Daizenshuu for the 50x multiplication by default make that the valid one? Officially speaking the Daizenshuu is what we have received, Toriyama intended to do many things but he ended up going a different route.B wrote:...And no more dilly-dallying around the SSJ boosts!...
The Saiyans are very much like the Klingons and Jem'Hadar.
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Yeah, basically, which was what I was trying to say. As I understand it, ヒト is what’s used for humans in the strictly biological sense (note that it's written in katakana, like other biological names for animals). 人間 is probably closest in meaning to “person”: in practice it’s almost always used to just mean homo sapiens, but the criteria for being one or not is based on having a certain level of intelligence or culture, so sentient computers or aliens could debatably qualify.Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:@Herms: Is ningen literally "human" (homo sapien)? I've always thought that ningen could mean something generic like "person" or "being" or... something, in those two lines.
Though fantasy/sci-fi works don't always use 人間 in the sort of general, "if it walks on two legs and can talk, it counts" way that DragonBall does. In Yu Yu Hakusho, for instance, it refers just to the inhabitents of the Human Realm. It's not used for the inhabitents of the Spirit and Demon Realms, despite them often looking identical or very similiar to homo sapiens and being at least as intelligent.
Yeah, yeah...sorry, I just kept putting it off, and never really got around to it. I'll try and do better this time.SSj_Rambo wrote:Oh ya, and when you go back to Japan... UPDATE YOUR BLOG THIS TIME!! :D
Kanzenshuu: Is that place still around?
Sometimes, I tweet things
We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
Sometimes, I tweet things
We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
Thumbs up!2. Gohan- He's not obnoxious, carries himself properly and does his best.
Really great insight! It's great to know that Toriyama shares my viewpoint in that the silly bits of the series are the real charm of it all. I never thought that ridiculous, cliche, drawn out battles are what made Dragon Ball great like so many people seem to--it was the adventure, the thrill, and the great personalities that so many of the characters had. It was charming, basically.
Not to say that I don't like fighting, and bear in mind that I'm basing off the anime here, but... yeah.
Thanks for sharing!
Re: DB Super Exciting Guide: Story
I think Mr. Toriyama is forgetting which characters are which again.omae no kaasan wrote:2. Gohan- He's not obnoxious, carries himself properly and does his best.
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*ponders* While a good observation, characters like Trunks are literally listed as 'Half Saiyan and Human'.Isn't 'Earthling' different to 'human'? You can be an Earthling without being human. Oolong is an Earthling.
Also, the category is 'Race' so...
I personally have no opinion on it. I stopped having opinions on DB story points a long time ago.
BUT WE GOT THE FREAKIN' STATUE O_oThank's a bunch Greg. Sadly, no Smokezilla this week, though.
Excellent point and that could very well be the case. If you're interested in pursuing it to see if it meets standards his listing as an earthling in this guide is 種族. I have neither the Daiz with me in the same country nor the heart for such endeavors.Well, he's listed as an Earthling in Daizenshuu 4 too, which is also the first place the whole Three-Eyed alien thing is ever mentioned, that I'm aware of. The idea is that he's an Earthling descended from aliens, so listed him as an Earthling doesn't contradict that.
Wow, I guess it has been a long time since I read them. I think the only DB trivia I can remember these days is Bulma's address.The reason for Super Saiyans having blond hair because it's easier to not have to black in their hair was actually already mentioned by Torishima in Shenlong Times #1. The fact that Toriyama did it for his assistant's sake is new information, though.
I'm sorry, I forgot how detailed and confusing it gets with using what technique when and how his body has limits etc.Wait...so SSJ Goku is equal to Goku using Kaio-ken x10, and to Oozaru? Because the x50 thing only applies to Goku's regular power; using the x50 thing, SSJ Goku is only 5x strong than Kaio-ken x10 Goku.
The exact words he uses are: 10x stronger than he could be to that point.
For Japanese readers:
中略
ただ当時、スーパーサイヤ人になると、約50倍の強さとされていたんですが、ちょっと大袈裟でしたね。作者の気持ちとしては、今までの10倍ぐらいの変化、という感じで描いていたと思います。
It changes nothing in the story. The story is what it is. It's just trivia.Well, I don't know how much of an exact translation this was, but he said "known that SSJ was 50x stronger", and that Toriyama ony "intended him to just be 10x stronger". And sine a 10x doesn't really make sense in the manga when you see how much friggin' better Goku did against Freeza in SSj form as compared to Kaio-ken x10. At this point I still think that the SSj transformation equals a 50x increase and it was only Toriyama's intention that it be a 10x increase; but who knows
Sorry for no scans. If this was me about a decade ago I'd be all over it but my heart belongs to another now. There are much more dedicated individuals that will bring you amazing stuff.
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Ah, thanks. 種族 is the same thing they use in Daizenshuu 4.omae no kaasan wrote:Excellent point and that could very well be the case. If you're interested in pursuing it to see if it meets standards his listing as an earthling in this guide is 種族. I have neither the Daiz with me in the same country nor the heart for such endeavors.
That's interesting. And still confusing, since Goku as SSJ is only x5 stronger than he could be up to that point, taking Kaio-ken x10 into account, so Toriyama's idea is actually twice as large as the x50 net increase he thought was so huge. But of course, by his own admission he's forgotten most of the story, so I really shouldn't nitpick so.The exact words he uses are: 10x stronger than he could be to that point.
For Japanese readers:
中略
ただ当時、スーパーサイヤ人になると、約50倍の強さとされていたんですが、ちょっと大袈裟でしたね。作者の気持ちとしては、今までの10倍ぐらいの変化、という感じで描いていたと思います。
Is it really written out スーパーサイヤ人 and not 超サイヤ人 with スーパー furigana, like in the manga?
About this, is it really rating Goku's attributes with stars, or is it rating the effectiveness of the training he undergoes? One of the preview pages had a page from that section (or what I think was), and I thought it was rating the training, but I might have just assumed that because of the training guide in Landmark that rates the attributes of the different forms of training by stars. This looked like the same thing to me.omae no kaasan wrote:Oh there's also a section which rates Goku's attributes throughout the series with stars. Didn't see anywhere that said Toriyama had input. Doubt it.
Oh yeah, and about Matsuyama: he was Toriyama's assistant way back in Dr. Slump as well (he often appears in the story together with Toriyama), so it's neat to know he kept working for Toriyama all that time.
Anyway, thanks again for all of this.
Last edited by Herms on Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
Sometimes, I tweet things
We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.
Re: DB Super Exciting Guide: Story
Now that you mention it, Oolong would probably be a ningen too, by Dragon Ball standards.Herms wrote:You can also be a human without being an Earthling. Vegeta refers to regular Saiyans as "humans", in contrast to their Oozaru forms, and Ginyu describes himself as "the type of human who can control his battle power".Bussani wrote:Isn't 'Earthling' different to 'human'? You can be an Earthling without being human. Oolong is an Earthling.
When they refer to the half Saiyajin, like Omae said;
Do they use ningen or some other term in that description?*ponders* While a good observation, characters like Trunks are literally listed as 'Half Saiyan and Human'.
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Nonono. I wrote it like that so it would be read like that since I can't do furigana. I'd do the same for any character intended to be read differently, I wasn't trying to dumb it down. But I'm glad you asked to clarify that.Is it really written out スーパーサイヤ人 and not 超サイヤ人 with スーパー furigana, like in the manga?
Again, thank you for asking for a clarification, the stars are literally what attribute of his the training works on.About this, is it really rating Goku's attributes with stars, or is it rating the effectiveness of the training he undergoes? One of the preview pages had a page from that section (or what I think was), and I thought it was rating the training, but I might have just assumed that because of the training guide in Landmark that rates the attributes of the different forms of training by stars. This looked like the same thing to me.
There is an accompanying circular point chart showing his overall growth in the same fields. The graph builds on itself so it follows his growth from start to finish. By the end his 'ki' is disgustingly far off the chart.
They say it's based on data supervised by Toriyama. However they do not say exactly what that data is.
Is it something Toriyama made for this book?
Or are they being ambiguous on purpose when they really mean, the comic?
But don't take my cynical word on commercial Japanese society for it:
孫悟空の勝利は、地道ですまじい修業の成果だった!鳥山先生監修のデータをもとに、悟空の成長を解析するぞ。
It's interesting how fast they are to throw his name around whenever it comes to any bit of data or selling point. Don't get me started on the fact that they added his letter from JUMP Festa to the start of DBE television spots.