Saiyan History 101

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Saiyan History 101

Post by Herms » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:35 am

----Notice:This old thread is part of my series of guides. To avoid necro-posting, please post any comments you have in the sticky thread for my guides, rather than here. Thanks!----

On the latest podcast, Mike and Meri talked about how one thing they’d like new guidebooks to include is more information on the history of the Saiyans. This is something fans say a lot, and it kinda bugs me, because if anything we already have too much information on Saiyan history floating around out there. There’s an entire filler episode devoted to it, plus a TV special, not to mention it plays a vital role in the OVA and GT, and the guidebooks add stuff too. Meanwhile, what information is there on the history of DB Earth, Namek, or the DB universe in general? Next to nothing, really. So the Saiyans probably have the most revealed history of anyone.

Of course, part of the problem is that the various things revealed about their history don’t always seem to fit together too well. The Joker said that if he had to have a past, he’d prefer it be multiple choice, and this is pretty much the predicament the Saiyans are in. So in this thread I’ll attempt to go through all the major things revealed about their history, starting with the manga and working through the DBZ filler, OVA, guidebooks, GT, and…more guidebooks.

Manga
The manga gives the sparsest account of the Saiyans’ history, which I suppose is probably where the idea that their past is shrouded in mystery comes from. In chapter 197, Raditz explains to Goku about the Saiyans, and this is virtually all the information we ever get about them in the manga:
First, you are not one of this planet’s humans!! You were born on Planet Vegeta, and are part of the strongest warrior race in the entire universe, the Saiyans! [ ] We Saiyans are a fighting race. Our job is to search for planets with good environments, and once we wipe out those who live there, we sell it at a high price to aliens who are looking for a suitable planet. Adult warriors go off to planets where guys with high battle powers live, but for low level planets like this one, babies like you are sent. [ ] The Saiyans were a scarce race even from the start, but to top it off, Planet Vegeta exploded from a collision with a gigantic meteorite…Almost all of the Saiyans vanished into space dust…Including our father and mother. Even counting you, only 4 Saiyans remain! Me and one other were off attacking another planet and so were saved. And the other one was fortune enough to have been sent off to a planet, like you were.
(The [ ] marks indicate breaks in Raditz’s monologue, or just parts of his speech that I left out because I didn’t think they were relevant to this thread)

Besides the “meteorite collision” detail that eventually gets scrapped in favor of Freeza being the real culprit behind Planet Vegeta’s destruction, there’s another detail of Raditz’s speech that doesn’t quite sit well with what we later learn. Raditz says that he and another Saiyan were off attacking planets, while another one was “sent off” to a planet “like Goku”. This makes it sound like this surviving Saiyan was sent off as a baby to some planet, but it’s later established that when Planet Vegeta was destroyed, Prince Vegeta was already old enough to show great promise as a warrior (the guidebooks pin his age at the time as 5), while Nappa was a grown man. And if this Saiyan wasn’t sent off as a baby, in what way was his circumstance different than Raditz and the other Saiyan, who were off attacking some planet? It’s not really clear, but it seems like Toriyama’s original conception of Vegeta and/or Nappa’s back story was quite different than what it ended up being.

Amusingly, Tarble’s back story as a Saiyan who was lucky enough to survive because he had been “sent off” to some planet (as opposed to attacking a planet) seem to match Raditz’s description. Some Japanese fans have seized on this to not so seriously suggest that Tarble had been the Saiyan Raditz was speaking of all along (meanwhile, this minor plot hole doesn’t seem too well known among English-speaking fans, perhaps because translations tend to gloss over it; Viz fixes it entirely). Another thing to point out is that Raditz says he was together with one of the other surviving Saiyans when Planet Vegeta was destroyed. In the Bardock special Vegeta is depicted as attacking some other planet all on his own when Planet Vegeta is destroyed, and Nappa calls him via scouter to inform him of the news. It's not clear from this where Raditz is supposed to be, but perhaps he's off with Nappa and just doesn't feel much feel like talking to Vegeta?

Anyway, moving on a bit, we get a little more information on the Saiyans from Kaio in chapter 21. As Goku is struggling with the high gravity on Kaio’s planet, which is ten times the Earth’s, Kaio notes that “the planet where the Saiyans were had about the same gravity as here…They toughened up their bodies there…” In light of some of the later material that depict the Saiyans as invaders to Planet Vegeta, it’s interesting that Kaio refers to Planet Vegeta not as the Saiyan homeworld but simply the planet where they were. Perhaps Toriyama had some inkling of that back story at this point?

Later during the Freeza story arc, Dodoria reveals that Planet Vegeta hadn’t been destroyed by a meteorite, as Raditz had said, but had instead been destroyed by Freeza:
Th…the power of individual Saiyans is absolutely no match for L-Lord Freeza, but…If many Saiyans joined together, they would be-become quite troublesome…F-furthermore, among a small portion of Saiyans, outstanding warriors such as yourself were born, and had begun to increase…Since you weren’t a race who would obediently listen to orders if you started gaining power, at that point Lord Freeza thought that he needed to take steps…So he personally wiped out Planet Vegeta and the Saiyans along with it! But Vegeta! You should thank Lord Freeza! Since you, the prince, looked to have genius talent, he purposefully targeted the planet when you weren’t there!
So Raditz’s story about the meteorite is explained away as just a cover story that Freeza spread to keep the remaining Saiyans from turning on him (this is implied in the manga, touched on a bit in filler too, and flat-out stated in Daizenshuu 7).

Later we learn that the Great Elder of Namek knows about Saiyans, and has even heard the legend of the Super Saiyan. Since it seems that the Namekians have given up space-faring technology and kept to themselves since the great cataclysm that ravaged their planet long ago (500 years ago according to Daizenshuu 7), this might indicate just how long the Saiyans have been feared throughout the universe. Though I suppose it’s possible that the Great Elder heard about Saiyans from some aliens who happened to visit Namek in the centuries sine the disaster, or something like that.

Speaking of the legend of the Super Saiyan, that’s another thing that’s sort of part of Saiyan history. In chapter 280, Vegeta outlines the concept:
A Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years… a Saiyan who overcomes the wall which no warrior, no matter how gifted, can overcome…That’s supposed to just be a stupid tradition…And even if the legend were true…only I would have the potential to become a Super Saiyan.
As we see throughout the series, the details of the legend aren’t necessarily all that accurate. Still, the fact that this legend in known by Freeza, Ginyu and co., the Great Elder, and Kaio probably says something about how much influence the Saiyans had on the universe. Also, the legend says that a Super Saiyan appears every thousand years, so the Saiyans must have been around at least that long…right? Well, maybe not. After all, the legend says a Super Saiyan appears once every thousand years, but by the end of the series you can’t throw a rock without hitting a Super Saiyan. Based on this, why should we believe anything the legend says about the timescale of Super Saiyan appearances? How would the Saiyans have even worked out that a Super Saiyan appears every thousand years? I wouldn’t think that a detailed calendar would be a high priority for a warrior race like them (and that’s not even taking into account the inherent difficulties of keeping track of time when you’re wandering around space). There was a thread about this not to long ago, and the short of it is that going strictly by the manga, it’s hard to prove that there even were any Super Saiyans before Goku. Still, as we’ll see later, Daizenshuu 7 says there was a Super Saiyan before Goku, who appeared in the year 239 Before Age, 1,001 years before Goku became one in Age 762. Whether this was the very fist one of all or just the latest in a line isn’t specified.

One last thing to add is that after Gohan saves Piccolo from third-form Freeza, Freeza notes that he destroyed all but a few of the Saiyans “about 30 years ago”. In the manga this is the only thing that gives any reference point for the destruction of Planet Vegeta. People give the Funi dub crap for having Raditz say the planet was destroyed 5 years ago, but to be fair, there isn’t anything in his original speech that contradicts this. It’s only in the Bardock special (which predates Freeza’s manga line here) that the planet’s destruction is first depicted as happening when Goku was a baby. Of course it was established back with Raditz that Goku came to Earth as a baby, but remember, Goku isn’t Superman: he didn’t come to Earth because of Planet Vegeta’s destruction. Going strictly by Raditz’s original monologue, it’s perfectly possible for Goku to have come to Earth as a baby, and for Planet Vegeta to have only been destroyed years later. Anyway, as a date for the planet’s destruction, 30 years is actually too long ago. Not to get too deep into the whole DB timeline thing, but Goku was 12 at the start of the series and at this point is about 24, which would put his birth 6 years after his home planet was wiped out! But of course, Freeza says “about 30 years ago”, so we can assume he’s just rounding up.

So that’s basically it for the manga: the Saiyans lived on Planet Vegeta. They were an infamous race for what seems to have been a really long time, and at some point some of them may or may not have become Super Saiyans. They went around conquering planets and selling them to rich aliens. At some point they teamed up with Freeza, who thought they were getting too powerful and so destroyed them around the time Goku was born (…if not before…), leaving only 4 survivors.

Toriyama memo

Probably the most well-known addition to the Saiyans’ history is DBZ episode 20, a filler episode where Kaio recounts to Goku their origin and conflict with the Tsufruians. However, before getting to that we should go over Toriyama’s notes to the anime staff. See, it turns out that DBZ episode 20 is one of the filler episodes that Toriyama had quite a hand in, and a memo that he wrote for the anime staff outlining the background of the Saiyans, their planet, and the Tsufruians served as the basis for that episode. This memo is reprinted in the DBZ Anime Special, Daizenshuu 5, and Son Goku Densetsu, although Son Goku Densetsu is the only book that reprints it large enough to be easily read. Anyway it goes as follows:
Planet Plant is a difficult planet to live on, as its gravity is unusually strong. However, two races live here. The majority of the inhabitants of Planet Plant are Tsufruians. Their bodies are small, but knowledge-wise they have a comparatively advanced culture and civilization. The other race has an unusually small population, but their bodies are large and strong. They are a primitive, warlike race called the Saiyans. Their biggest distinguishing characteristic is that they have tails, and every one of them seems to be a warrior.

[Picture of Tsufruians, with scouter and blaster gun, labeled “Tsufruian”. We see a colored version of this guy in DBZ episode 20 when Kaio introduces the Tsufruians] Due to the heavy gravity, they are about half as big as the Saiyans.

[arrow pointing to scouter on Tsufruian's head] This scouter, for instance, and other such things were originally Tsufruian inventions.

[picture of three caveman-like Saiyans, all three of which ended up appearing in Kaio’s flashback] The Saiyans of long ago

[picture of the Saiyans’ rocky housing] The housing area that the ancient Saiyans lived in (perhaps more varied shapes might be good?)
The biggest addition here of course is the idea that the Saiyans shared their planet with another race. It’s interesting that this memo doesn’t actually mention anything about the Saiyans fighting the Tsufruians, though it’s possible that there were additional memos Toriyama made. This is the only Saiyan/Tsufruian-related one that’s been revealed in guidebooks, though.

Interestingly, Toriyama’s memo refers to the Saiyan and Tsufruians’ world as “Planet Plant”, which is later mentioned in “Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans” as being the original name of Planet Vegeta before the Saiyans took it over, but is not actually mentioned in DBZ episode 20. Oddly, the DBZ Anime Special and Son Goku Densetsu pictures of the memo show “Planet Plant” crossed out in red the first time it’s written, with “Planet Vegeta” written in, but the Daizenshuu 5 picture doesn’t have this. This implies that there are at least 2 copies of this memo, or that they took photos of the memo both before and after this correction was made.

This use of “Planet Plant” could indicate that Toriyama came up with the idea of this being Planet Vegeta’s original name prior to the Saiyans taking over, but that this detail was left out of the actual episode for whatever reason (perhaps to save time). Or it could be that when writing the memo Toriyama forgot that he had already named the Saiyans’ planet “Planet Vegeta” and that he corrected this once he realized his error, but then the anime staff later made use of this accidentally created alternate name for the OVA.

Z filler

Episode 17 of DBZ features Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Kuririn, and Chaozu making a mental journey into the past so that they can learn firsthand the ferociousness of the Saiyans. The place which they visit is a desolate city filled with the skeletons of dead Saiyans, and it looks as if these Saiyans died fighting amongst themselves. On seeing this, Kuririn wonders whether this is the Saiyans’ planet, but the question is never really answered in either the episode or guidebooks. Daizenshuu 3’s episode guide refers to this place as a “Saiyan city”, but whether or not it’s located on Planet Vegeta isn’t clarified. It’s possible that it’s some sort of ill-fated Saiyan colony, I suppose. But if it is part of Planet Vegeta, it certainly raises a lot of questions; the place already looks like some post-apocalyptic landscape even before Freeza destroyed it. Why were the Saiyans fighting among each other? Or if they were fighting some enemy, who was it? Why is the city seemingly deserted save for two living Saiyans? The Daizenshuu 7 timeline might shed a little light on this, but I’ll get to that later.

Episode 20, meanwhile, is a landmark episode where Goku learns about his Saiyan roots, gains new understanding about his life and place in the universe, and manages to hit a talking cricket with a big hammer (in that order). Kaio’s story about the Saiyans’ past and their conflict with the Tsufruians is as follows:
Long, long ago…Two races lived together on a planet called ‘Vegeta’. These were your ancestors the Saiyans, and the Tsufruians. Planet Vegeta had gravity ten times stronger than normal, just like my planet. Because of this, the Tsufruians, who made up the majority of Planet Vegeta, had bodies only about half as big as the Saiyans. However, they were intelligent and had a rather advanced culture. On the other hand, the Saiyans were a very scarce people, but their bodies were large, and what’s more, they were a strong and aggressive primitive race. Their biggest distinguishing characteristic was that they had tails. All of them were like warriors, so to speak. Eventually, these warriors joined together and began raiding the Tsufruians. The Tsufruians faced them with the advanced weapons which they had made themselves. The Saiyans were absolutely outnumbered, but were absurdly strong and gradually overcame the Tsufruians. The full moon, which on Planet Vegeta appeared only once every eight years, proved to be the decisive factor. This was because when Saiyans look at the full moon, they transform into monsters. For the Tsufruians, this was the biggest threat of all, because it resulted in so much damage. In this way, the Tsufruians’ culture was replaced bit by bit as the Saiyans grew in number. In the end, they controlled all of Planet Vegeta. And so, the Saiyans went out into the universe in search of battle. However, because they had wiped out the Tsufruians, their culture did not develop any further. So, searching for battle but unable to travel even further out into the universe, the Saiyans joined forces with rich aliens with advanced cultures. In exchange for supplying those aliens with planets they wanted, they obtained culture and money. For the warlike Saiyans, this was like killing two birds with one stone. The Saiyans escalated things more and more, so that even babies were sent off to various planets, the way you were. This produced a far-reaching strategy whereby these babies would wipe out the planet’s inhabitants once they grew up. However, Planet Vegeta had a god as well. Perhaps because of the Saiyans’ evil deeds, he personally summoned a gigantic meteor and had it collide with Planet Vegeta, causing it to explode. Only four Saiyans survived, including you.
The main elements found in this episode that weren’t in Toriyama’s memo are the details about the Saiyans’ war with the Tsufruians, the way in which the Saiyans joined up with other aliens, and how the god of Planet Vegeta was the cause of the meteorite collision which Raditz mentioned. Now, it’s possible that these elements were included in some other memo of Toriyama’s that hasn’t been featured in guidebooks, but we have no way of knowing that. However, the fact that the Toriyama memo we have mentions the Tsufruians and even notes that Scouters were originally their invention, but says nothing about the Saiyans fighting them and taking their technology makes me suspect there was another memo detailing at least that much. But we’ll probably never know. The part about Planet Vegeta’s god destroying the planet by making it collide with a meteor is a well-known plot hole, since of course later on the fact that it was Freeza who destroyed the planet become a very important plot point. I guess you could try rationalizing it by saying that Kaio didn’t want to reveal the whole truth to Goku, lest he go off and fight Freeza, so he made up the whole part about Planet Vegeta’s god.

There are some other bits and pieces of filler that fill in details of the destruction of Planet Vegeta and whatnot though they don’t add anything too major to the sequence of events established in the manga. The main thing is that we see King Vegeta and some of the other Saiyans grow restless of being ruled by Freeza and try and stage a revolt immediately before Freeza destroys their planet.

OVA
The OVA centers around the Tsufruian scientist Dr. Raichi trying to gain revenge on the Saiyans, so naturally we get a retelling of the Saiyan/Tsufruian conflict. This time it is again Kaio who tells the story (Goku, for his part, doesn’t seem to remember anything about the Tsufruians):
Long ago, Planet Vegeta was called Planet Plant. The Tsufruians, who possessed advanced science, lived there. Then one day, a spaceship carrying the Saiyans drifted there, and the Saiyans sought help from the Tsufruians. The Tsufruians approved of the Saiyans living on Plant, and the two races began to live together. And so the Saiyans, being a warrior race, gradually increased in number, and a man with excellent intellect superior to the Tsufruians was born. This man, who would later be known as King Vegeta, led the Saiyans in revolt against the Tsufruians. Afterwards, Planet Plant had its name changed to Planet Vegeta, and became the Saiyans’ planet.
The most important addition here is the idea that the Saiyans were not native to Planet Vegeta, but only invaded it like they eventually did so many other planets. A lot of people see this as contradicting what was previously said about the Saiyans and Tsufruians. To be sure, there’s nothing earlier that really suggests this, though there are some things that seem kind of consistent with it, like Kaio describing Planet Vegeta as simply the “planet where the Saiyans were”. This is also the first place the idea of the Saiyans’ planet not originally being named “Vegeta” gets spelled out (though as we’ve seen it might have been floating around earlier). It’s pretty much a logical necessity if you’re going to say that the Saiyans invaded the place, unless they just showed up and said “Vegeta, that’s a good name! We should name all our leaders that!”

The thing about the Saiyans reaching Plant in a spaceship gets a little tricky. GT shows them all showing up in a bunch of classic “Attack Ball” spaceships, but here in the OVA a brief shot shows the Saiyans standing by one large ship as they first greet the Tsufruians. Well, I suppose they could have come in a bunch of small Attack Balls and a large ship. There’s no true plural form in Japanese so it’s not clear whether Daizenshuu 7's timeline is talking about one or many ships, but since the GT version of the story didn't even exist yet I guess we can assume they mean one big ship like is shown in the OVA. Another sticking point some people have is where the Saiyans would have even gotten any spaceship(s), if they were just a bunch of primitive morons at this point. But I think that can be easily explained by assuming they just stole it/them from someone, the same way they later stole the Tsufruians’ technology. Though I guess that does make you wonder how they got off their original home planet in the first place. Did they share that planet with some more advanced race too, or did some really unlucky tourists or explorers just happen to stop by one day, only to become the victims of the most significant carjacking in history?

Another interesting addition is the idea that King Vegeta was the one who led the Saiyans against the Tsufruians (and was also some kind of super genius, apparently). This would only allow for a pretty short timeframe for the Saiyans’ planet-conquering business and partnership with Freeza, if they went from getting rid of the Tsufruians to being blown up by Freeza in just one generation. Though I suppose it’s possible that the King Vegeta Kaio talks about is some earlier king and not Vegeta’s father, since the Saiyans seem to have zero imagination when it comes to naming royalty and planets. They call this guy King Vegeta and regular Vegeta “Prince Vegeta”, but I guess that doesn’t prove anything. I don’t remember anything in the OVA flat-out identifying this King Vegeta as regular Vegeta’s father, but I admit that I did fast forward a lot through the thing. Anyway, the daizenshuu and GT go with the idea that this is indeed Vegeta’s father.

Later in the OVA, when the gang finally confronts Dr. Raichi, he gives his whole routine about never forgiving the Saiyans and whatnot, to which Vegeta replies “What are you babbling about? You worked our ancestors like slaves! You Tsufruians are the ones who are unforgivable.” This isn’t elaborated on, and we never hear anything about it again, not even in GT when Vegeta is confronted by another Tsufruian who babbles about getting revenge on the Saiyans. It’s particularly odd that Kaio doesn’t mention anything about the Tsufruians using the Saiyans like slaves during his exposition earlier in the OVA. I’m tempted to think this is just something the Saiyans made up to justify wiping out the Tsufruians.

Daizenshuu

The manga-based Daizenshuu 4’s race guide offers a brief history of the Saiyans, which basically just recaps what was said in the manga:
Their home-world's destruction!! Four people escape.
Previously the Saiyan made their living by searching out and attacking planets with good environments, then selling the captured planets off to other aliens. But their home-world was completely annihilated by Freeza and his men, people in the same planet-selling business whom the Saiyan had formed an alliance with. On top of that, the survivors were told by Freeza a false history where their planet had simply collided with a gigantic meteorite. Two Saiyans who escaped alive from this devastation eventually learned the truth and wiped out Freeza and his men. After that they moved to Earth and left descendents.
None of the purely manga-based daizenshuu (1, 2, 4) mention anything about the Saiyans being alien invaders to Planet Vegeta; only the ones that reference the anime do (logically enough, since this is only mentioned in the anime). It’s kind of interesting that they never mention the Tsufruians though, since Toriyama did come up with them. But he came up with them specifically for the anime, so I guess that’s why they’re not referenced. You could argue that the way it refers to Planet Vegeta as the Saiyans’ home-world contradicts the OVA’s idea that they’re invaders, but they did make Planet Vegeta their home, even if their species didn’t originate there. At any rate, even the anime guidebooks that talk about the Saiyans invading Planet Plant/Vegeta still refer to the place as their home-world.

On that note, Daizenshuu 3 has a page on the Saiyans’ history, specifically as depicted in the anime. It mostly just goes over stuff I’ve covered above, but it’s got some interesting notes too (things written in brackets describe pictures, and the things written after the brackets are the picture captions).
Variety of DB: A Look at the Anime Version’s Saiyan History!!
The Saiyans are the strongest fighting race in the universe!! We’ll disclose the anime-only worldview and background material relating to them!!


Science
Contact with Freeza!!
The Saiyans tricked the Tsufruians, and made use of their science. Because of this, their scientific advancement stagnated after the massacre of the Tsufruians. From there, they joined forces with Freeza, and in exchange for invading other planets, they were able to receive weapons and other things!! Reference: DBZ episode 20

[Tsufru] The Tsufruians in battle with the Saiyans!! You can see that the scouter was also a product of their science!!

Home World
Discord with Tsufruians!!
The Saiyans’ home is Planet Vegeta, which has gravity ten times that of Earth!! With a full moon arriving every eight years, at this time the Saiyans became Oozaru and massacred the Tsufruians!! Reference: DBZ episode 20

[big Saiyans and small Tsufruians] The Tsufruians have small bodies but superior intelligence.

Roots
The Saiyans are a nomadic people?!
Planet Vegeta was formerly called Planet Plant, and was inhabited by the Tsufruians. One day, a spaceship ridden by a tailed race drifted there! These were the primeval Saiyans, the roots of the Saiyans. However, it is a mystery why the primeval Saiyans were drifting through space!! The true home-world of the Saiyans is also not revealed…!! Reference: the official visual guide “Plan to Exterminate the Saiyans” (distributer/Bandai)

[cavemen Saiya-jin] These are the primeval Saiyans, ancestors of the Saiyans!! At this time, their intelligence was low, and they were a scarce and simply violent race!!

Special Characteristics
Their environment makes their faces the same?!
The Saiyans’ appearance is divided into limited types!! Furthermore, because they are raised sorted into different classes, it seems that there are numerous cases of people in the same class having the same face!! The types of faces among the disposable lower-level warriors are particularly limited, and Goku and the movie character Turles have the same face and voice!! Perhaps the facial resemblance between King Vegeta and Vegeta, and between Goku and Barduck, is not due to just their lineage, but also related to their class?! Reference: the movie “Super Decisive Battle for Earth”

[Turles] Turles’ face and of course his voice too are identical to Goku!!

[Broli] Broli, he appeared in the movies. His brutality could be said to be that of a true Saiya-jin warrior!!

Class
The name Vegeta is a symbol of might and political power!
The royal house of Vegeta stands at the summit of Saiyan political power!! It is established that below the royal family are noble families of elite warriors such as Nappa, and then below that are low-level warriors. Incidentally, it seems that the establishment of the royal family was immediately after the massacre of the Tsufruians. The original king was Vegeta’s father, King Vegeta, and there is a hereditary system where the king’s child afterward inherits kingship!! Reference: the official visual guide “Plan to Exterminate the Saiya-jin”, and others

[King Vegeta] Even King Vegeta, who master-minded the massacre of the Tsufruians, reluctantly obeyed Freeza!!

[Goku in battle armor] Perhaps even Goku would have become a fearsome warrior if he had not come to Earth?!
Daizenshuu 7 is the only daizenshuu to cover both the manga and anime, and its elaborate series timeline is a sometimes odd mix of manga-only and anime-only events. It assigns specific years to the various events gone over above (the actual Daizenshuu 7 timeline has various non-Saiyan related entries in between the following stuff, but I’ve cut them out):
Around 239 Before Age: The appearance of the Super Saiyan, considered a legend among the Saiyans. He made the universe tremble with destruction and slaughter.

Circa Age 550: The primitive Saiyans drift to Planet Plant on a mysterious spaceship.

Circa Age 720~730: On Planet Plant, the Saiyans unite and start a revolt. They rush into all-out war with the Tsufruians. The Saiyans overwhelm the Tsufruians. The Tsufruian scientist Dr. Raichi dies. The Saiyan extermination weapon, Hatred Amplification Device Hatchi-Hyakku is launched into space. The Tsufruians are wiped out. The Saiyans take complete control of Planet Plant, and change its name to Planet Vegeta. At the same time, they absorb Tsufruian technology, such as the scouter. The Saiyans begin setting out into space. The Saiyans hit upon the idea of having other aliens sponsor their wars.

Circa Age 731: The Saiyans team up with Freeza and begin a universal land shark business. King Vegeta takes a queen.

Age 732: Vegeta is born

Circa Age 735: The Saiyans’ animosity towards Freeza begins to strengthen. On Planet Vegeta, there are repeated insurrections among the Saiyans.

Age 737: Kakarotto (Son Goku) is born. Planet Vegeta gains control of Planet Kanassa and Planet Meat. King Vegeta starts a revolt against Freeza, but it ends in failure. Freeza commences a war against the Saiyans. Goku’s father Barduck dies in battle. Planet Vegeta is annihilated by Freeza. Kakarotto escapes from Planet Vegeta, and arrives on Earth.
So basically, 1,000 years before Goku becomes a Super Saiyan on Namek, there was another Super Saiyan who made the “universe tremble with slaughter and destruction”. 789 years later, the Saiyans arrive on Plant. About 200 years after that, over the course of ten years they wipe out the Tsufruians, take over the planet, and start their planet selling business. A year after that, they join up with Freeza. Their partnership lasts all of 6 years, at which point Freeza is already fed up, and blows them to hell. Apparently the great Saiyan Empire barely lasted longer than the average dotcom company. But I guess that’s the kind of timeframe you’re stuck with if Vegeta’s father is the one to overthrow the Tsufruians. Of course, even before reaching Plant the Saiyans were apparently wandering around the universe already, and many centuries before then the Super Saiyan made “the universe tremble”, which implies he wasn’t confined to a single planet. So even if the Saiyans’ big official planet-conquering business didn’t last that long, they were still apparently travelling around the universe being rat bastards for centuries on end.

The entry for (circa) Age 735 is interesting for its description of insurrection among the Saiyans. I wonder if this was intended as a reference to DBZ episode 17, with its depiction of a Saiyan city where the Saiyans had all apparently killed each other.

Later in Daizenshuu 7 is an in-depth look at the major races of DB, the Earthlings, Saiyans, and Namekians. The section on Saiyans has an interesting note on the Saiyans’ possible origins:
Since the Saiyans never stop fighting even amongst their own race, perhaps the race now known as the Saiyans are a species who won and survived a historical battle.
Even the book says this is “perhaps” the case, so even if we take this bit as 100% canonical I don’t know what real consequence that would have (“it’s undoubtedly certain that this may possibly be the case”). Still an interesting bit though.

GT
In GT we get another revenge-crazed Tsufruian, so of course we get yet another recap of how the Saiyans wiped out the Tsufruians. In GT episode 27, Baby manages to take control of Vegeta’s body, but is nice enough to explain all about his origin (these are Steve Simmons’ subtitles):
Baby: Our world, Planet Tsufru was a world of scientific development, one of true peace and abundance. But then, along came you barbaric monkeys, the Saiyans. Do you remember?
Vegeta: And who was it that was driven off by those barbaric monkeys?
Baby: We miscalculated the speed of your evolution. The Saiyans’ murderous instincts grew more powerful, and you killed the Tsufruians one after another, like insects…And at the center of your wickedness…was your father, King Vegeta. Having been cornered by you Saiyans, we took the remaining scientific ability that we had, and created a parasitic life form. And then, King Tsufru inserted his own genes within its cells, and launched it into space.
Vegeta: And those cells became you, right?
Mainly of course this just serves to insert Baby into the previously established story of the Saiyans vs the Tsufruians. We again see Vegeta’s father flat-out identified as the one who led the Saiyans against the Tsufruians. Also new stuff about the Saiyans evolving, and we learn that the Tsufruians had a “King Tsufru”. In this depiction, we see the Saiyans land on planet in the same “Attack Ball” spaceships that they and the rest of Freeza’s men are shown using in the series.

Some fans complain that Baby’s bizarre appearance contradicts the Tsufruians’ depiction in the DBZ filler and OVA as essentially like Earthlings, only shorter. But GT also depicts them this way; it’s only Baby who looks the way he does. Even the clothing worn by the Tsufruians is consistent with what we’ve seen before.

I can’t believe I never noticed this before, but Baby refers to the Tsufruian planet as “Planet Tsufru” instead of Planet Plant. I always thought it was kinda weird how the reconstructed Planet Plant/Vegeta that Baby uses the dragonballs to create was called “Planet Tsufru”, but I guess that explains it. Why they decided to re-rename (or re-pre-rename?) the place, I have no idea. Also odd is how when Vegeta realizes Baby’s Tsufruian identity, he says “So that’s it. I’m starting to remember…your wretched ki. Tsufruian!” But according to the Daizenshuu 7 and GT Perfect Files timelines, Vegeta was born a few years after the Tsufruians were wiped out. And even if we ignore those, if Vegeta were old enough to remember the Tsufruians before they were wiped out, that would give an even more cramped timeframe for the Saiyans’ planet-conquering business. Unless we just make Vegeta a few years older than his official age. Well anyway, maybe the Saiyans kept a few Tsufruians around after they took control of the planet, just for fun or something. But then Vegeta wasn’t supposed to have even been able to sense ki on his own before he came to Earth…

Perfect Files

The first volume of the GT Perfect Files has a section on the Saiyans and Tsufruians, detailing their societies, characteristics, and history. This includes a section speculating on the Saiyans’ true home-world:
Where is the Saiyans’ true homeland?
The mysterious “Planet Saiya”
Planet Vegeta (formally Planet Plant) was originally the Tsufruians’ planet, and not the homeland of the Saiyans. The roots of the Saiya are unknown, and all that is recorded is that “the primitive Saiyans drifted to Planet Plant on a mysterious spaceship”. Perhaps the launching point of that spaceship could possibly itself be the Saiyans’ true homeland. And just maybe the Saiyans’ home world still exists somewhere in space!?

[picture of an Oozaru] There’s also a theory that Saiyans were originally Oozarus, who gained intelligence and became human!!
I’m pretty sure that caption at the end is the first and last place to mention the idea that the Saiyans evolved from Oozarus. I love how it’s phrased as just being a theory (the ID people must have gotten to Shueisha!), just like how the thing in Daizenshuu 7 about the Saiyans surviving some historic battle is phrased as terms of “perhaps this happened”. Apparently they just can’t make up their minds or something.

Then later in the same section is a timeline detailing Saiyan/Tsufruian history. It’s mostly based on the Daizenshuu 7 timeline, but adds in stuff about Baby and the start of GT.
Complete Inspection Part 2: The Universal History of Saiya and Tsufru Interaction!!
Things in bold are new bits of history that came to light in “DragonBall GT”

C. 238 Before Age: The appearance of the Super Saiyan!!
The Super Saiyan, told of in legend, appears and pushes the limits of slaughter and destruction.

C. Age 550: The primeval Saiyans drift to Planet Plant!!
The primeval Saiyans drift on their spaceship to the bountiful Planet Plant, where science had flourished in peace. Reproducing quickly, in the next few hundred years the primeval Saiyans evolve to an extraordinary extent and gain intelligence. But at the same time, their instincts for slaughter grew as well.
[ ] The Tsufruians approve of the Saiyans’ residency, but…

C. Age 720~730: All-out confrontation between the Saiyans and Tsufruians!!
The all-out war between the Saiyans and Tsufruians begins. Cornered, the Tsufruians use their remaining scientific power to develop a parasitic life-form (later to be known as Baby). This life-form inherits the genes of King Tsufru, and is launched into space. The battle results in the Saiyans’ overwhelming victory, the Tsufruians are wiped out, and Planet Plant is renamed as Planet Vegeta.
[ ] The thing in the cultivation pod is Baby, and the sleeping man is King Tsufru.

Age 731: The Saiyans and Freeza join forces!!
[ ] King Vegeta obeys Freeza, but inside he is filled with hatred.

Age 732: Vegeta is born!!

Age 735: The “Universal Tsufruization Plant” goes into operation!
While drifting through space, Baby swears vengeance against the Saiyans for wiping out the Tsufruians. Furthermore, he devises the “Universal Tsufruization Plan”, in order to revive the Tsufru.


C.Age 735: Repeated incidences of insurrection among the Saiyans!!

Age 737: Kakarotto (Son Goku) is born!!
Kakarotto is born. King Vegeta and Goku’s father Barduck die in battle against Freeza. At the same time, Kakarotto’s space pod is shot out into space. Planet Vegeta is wiped out by Freeza. The four remaining Saiyans are Kakarotto, his older brother Raditz, Vegeta, and Vegeta’s subordinate Nappa.
[ ] Kakarotto, immediately after arriving on Earth in his space pod. Found by Grandpa Gohan, he is given the name Son Goku!!

Age 740: Doctor Mu is born!
Baby manufactures Doctor Mu in order to gather the resurrection energy he needs to obtain a powerful body. Baby programs Mu with the method of developing machine mutants, and production begins on Llod, M-2, and the others.


Age 760-770: Planet M-2 is completed
Doctor Mu makes the alien Rild a general, in addition to restructuring his body. At the same time, the super gigantic planet-type machine mutant (Planet M-2) is completed, its functions having been linked to General Rild. Using Planet M-2 as a base, the M-2 Army begins gathering energy from throughout the universe.


Age 766: Trunks is born!!

Age 767: Goten is born!!

Age 775: Doltaki becomes Baby’s underling!
Doctor Mu makes the space swindler Doltaki one of his subordinates, and gives him Lood, the strongest machine mutant. Doltaki uses his skills as a swindler to create the scam religion Loodism, and begins gathering energy from its adherents.


Age 779: Pan is born!!

Age 780: Bra is born!!

Age 789: Goku, Trunks, and Pan depart from Earth!

Age 789: Goku encounters Baby!!
Several months later, they encounter Baby in his larval form. After that, Baby continues to infect various aliens, accumulating power.


Age 789: Baby appears on Earth!
Nine months after Goku and the others left, Baby arrives on Earth, infecting all the Earthlings and bringing them under his rule. Furthermore, he creates Planet Tsufru through the power of Shenlong, and uses it as the base for the Universal Tsufruization Plan.


Age 789: Super Saiyan 4 appears!!
War breaks out between a Saiyan survivor (Son Goku) and the last remaining Tsufruin (Baby). Through this battle, the Tsufruin are completely exterminated.


[big black text] Brawn (Saiya) VS Science (Tsufru)!! The grand history of the battle between these alien races!!
SEG

Finally we have the Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume. In the Q&A in the back, Toriyama answers a question about how many planets Freeza ruled, which results in him going on a brief tangent about the Saiyans:
The Saiyans are a fighting race who since ancient times have lived a violent and inhumane lifestyle where they attack numerous planets to build up wealth and goods.
Then he talks about how Freeza and co. subjugated the Saiyans. This lifestyle Toriyama describes sounds more like simple piracy rather than the planter-conquering business they worked together with Freeza on. So maybe that’s what they did before they started the business and joined Freeza. This actually fits in fairly well with the OVA and GT and whatnot giving such a small timeframe for the Saiyans’ business. The business wasn’t around that long, but the Saiyans have basically been space pirates since “ancient times”, which is why the Great Elder knew about them. Perhaps.

I was wanting to conclude by trying to make a timeline that puts all this together into a halfway coherent form, just to see if I can. Well, maybe later.
Last edited by Herms on Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:56 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Michsi » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:49 am

I think people refer to Toriyama not having gone explained a bit more about the saiyans and their history himself through the manga.


I, personally, would have lovede a bit more info on thar legendary Super Saiyan that appeared 1000 years ago and caused mayhem and destruction across the universe.

I have a question though:
Are these Daizenshu Databooks anime-based or manga-based?

It wouldn't be the first time the anime took liberties with changing things in the DB universe.
Take for instance the fact that saiyans were not native to planet plant. DId that come from Toriyama, bacause it kinda contradicts previouse info about the saiyan race.

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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:01 am

I guess you didn't thoroughly read Herms' post, as all your questions are answered in it.
Herms wrote:None of the purely manga-based daizenshuu (1, 2, 4) mention anything about the Saiyans being alien invaders to Planet Vegeta; only the ones that reference the anime do (logically enough, since this is only mentioned in the anime).
..,
Daizenshuu 7 is the only Daizenshuu to cover both the manga and anime, and its elaborate series timeline is a sometimes odd mix of manga-only and anime-only events.
Herms wrote:In light of some of the later material that depict the Saiyans as invaders to Planet Vegeta, it’s interesting that Kaio refers to Planet Vegeta not as the Saiyan homeworld but simply the planet where they were. Perhaps Toriyama had some inkling of that back story at this point?
...
The most important addition here is the idea that the Saiyans were not native to Planet Vegeta, but only invaded it like they eventually did so many other planets. A lot of people see this as contradicting what was previously said about the Saiyans and Tsufruians. To be sure, there’s nothing earlier that really suggests this, though there are some things that seem kind of consistent with it, like Kaio describing Planet Vegeta as simply the “planet where the Saiyans were”.
...
You could argue that the way it refers to Planet Vegeta as the Saiyans’ home-world contradicts the OVA’s idea that they’re invaders, but they did make Planet Vegeta their home, even if their species didn’t originate there. At any rate, even the anime guidebooks that talk about the Saiyans invading Planet Plant/Vegeta still refer to the place as their home-world.
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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Michsi » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:21 am

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:I guess you didn't thoroughly read Herms' post, as all your questions are answered in it.
It didn't answer if this idea came from Toriyam himself or not and that was my question. As I said, the anime and manga sometimes tend to contradit each other so as a fan this can be frustrating sometimes.

If it this was mentioned in the manga then eveybody would take it as a fact but it only mentioned in a databook and it feels it was added there just to have things sound interesting... .

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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:20 am

The specific portions I quoted may not have stated if Toriyama came up with the idea, but Herms did address the question in general within the post as well. Since he posted all known background information about the Saiyans, and if Toriyama had anything to do with it, then the simple answer is that we don't know. More than likely, we'll probably never know if it was something he suggested or if it was a Toei creation.

Also, it isn't like the info is only mentioned in a guidebook. I do believe Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans was the first to introduce the concept of the Saiyans not being native to Planet Plant/Vegeta, and the "OVA" (or whatever you choose to call it: game, visual guide, OVA, whatever.) predated the Daizenshuu.
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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Michsi » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:33 am

Yeah but the point of this thread was to prove that we get plenty of Information about the saiyan race which in itself is debatable. I can't say I agree with this. I know most of the information posted above by Herms and yet i can't say it's satisying.

I for one, would've delved a lot more in the history of all the different races, in-universe-wise.

It might be just me, since whenever I designga character and/or a race I tend to go in a lot of detail with this type of information.

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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:11 am

Great guide! I'd actually recently taken notes on the differences between the stories told in DBZ #20, DBGT #27, OVA and OVA 2.0, but it looks like you beat me to making a guide. I don't know if you actually bothered to watch Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans, but there weren't any significant changes from the original OVA, regarding the Saiyan history. Raichi's death is a little different, but that's about it.

By the way, in both the original and the remake, the Saiyans are indeed shown arriving in one big spaceship. So DBGT #27 does contradict this story a bit. Additionally, in the OVA, the Saiyans are shown peacefully shaking hands with the Tsufruians when they first arrive, while they look quite menacing when exiting their Attack Balls in DBGT. The idea in the OVA was that the Saiyans were begging the Tsufruians for help, while DBGT makes it seem like they were invading the planet. In both cases, it's interesting to note that the Saiyans arrive in their spaceship(s) in that primative caveman clothing, but they finish the war in the traditional Saiyan armor. (I think King Vegeta's even got his royal armor on, including the royal crest.) In DBZ #20, we only see them wearing Saiyan armor after they meet their rich alien pals.
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The Saiyans’ home is Planet Vegeta, which has gravity ten times that of Earth!! With a full moon arriving every eighty years, at this time the Saiyans became Oozaru and massacred the Tsufruians!! Reference: DBZ episode 20
Should say "eight years," no? Speaking of the moon, in a couple iterations of the story, I noticed that Planet Plant or whatever seems to have two moons (In DBGT #27 and OVA 2.0, I think?) Kinda strange.
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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by kaialone » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:32 am

Man,I wish all these guys would just have sat together one weekend and made up their mind about what exactly was the deal with the Saiyajin.
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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Herms » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:32 pm

TheDevilsCorpse wrote:I do believe Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans was the first to introduce the concept of the Saiyans not being native to Planet Plant/Vegeta, and the "OVA" (or whatever you choose to call it: game, visual guide, OVA, whatever.) predated the Daizenshuu.
Yeah, all the categories are organized in the order that they appeared. That's why all the guidebooks aren't just lumped together, because the GT series ran between the release of the daizenshuu and the later guidebooks.
Michsi wrote:Yeah but the point of this thread was to prove that we get plenty of Information about the saiyan race which in itself is debatable.
Well, the point of the thread was to gather all the official information about the Saiyans' history into one place and explore how it adds on to or contradicts what came before. The stuff about how we have more details on the Saiyan history out there than people seem to realize was just a personal opinion.
Michsi wrote:I can't say I agree with this. I know most of the information posted above by Herms and yet i can't say it's satisying.

I for one, would've delved a lot more in the history of all the different races, in-universe-wise.
My point was that we have far more information on the history of the Saiyans than we do anyone else in DB, but many fans seem to have this idea that they've been overlooked. Compared to what we have for the Saiyans, we have next to no information about the history of DB Earth or Namek, despite their vast importance to the story. I think that if we were to get more background information in new guidebooks (which was the question Mike and Meri were responding to), then it would be better spent fleshing out Earth out Namek rather than the Saiyans.
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote: I don't know if you actually bothered to watch Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans, but there weren't any significant changes from the original OVA, regarding the Saiyan history. Raichi's death is a little different, but that's about it.
I wanted to watch it, but I don't own Raging Blast 2. I tried to find a clip of the Saiyan/Tsufruian stuff from it on youtube, but couldn't and then lost interest. Good to hear that there weren't any major changes. For that matter, I wonder if the original "Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans" game had any details that were left out of the OVA.
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:By the way, in both the original and the remake, the Saiyans are indeed shown arriving in one big spaceship. So DBGT #27 does contradict this story a bit.
Oh wow, I didn't notice that at all. I thought that thing was a building or something; it scrolls by so fast. Thanks for pointing that out.
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Additionally, in the OVA, the Saiyans are shown peacefully shaking hands with the Tsufruians when they first arrive, while they look quite menacing when exiting their Attack Balls in DBGT. The idea in the OVA was that the Saiyans were begging the Tsufruians for help, while DBGT makes it seem like they were invading the planet. In both cases, it's interesting to note that the Saiyans arrive in their spaceship(s) in that primative caveman clothing, but they finish the war in the traditional Saiyan armor. (I think King Vegeta's even got his royal armor on, including the royal crest.) In DBZ #20, we only see them wearing Saiyan armor after they meet their rich alien pals.
Ah, that's a nice catch too.
Chibi Mystic wrote:Should say "eight years," no? Speaking of the moon, in a couple iterations of the story, I noticed that Planet Plant or whatever seems to have two moons (In DBGT #27 and OVA 2.0, I think?) Kinda strange.
Thanks, I'll fix that.
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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:40 pm

Taking it slightly off the track a bit, but weren't we (and Meri specifically) talking more about the internal culture of the race, rather than the raw events of what happens? And then I was talking more about the outside-looking-in perspective from possibly other races and gods? That's what I remember happening. So yeah, we know things that happen... but that's not what we were interested in at all. And so what if they have more than other races do? It was a question of what we, personally, wanted to see. I don't care what the government on Earth was like prior to the dog taking over. OK, maybe I do.

Regardless, this'll all be nice and helpful in tossing together that silly editing project that will likely overtake my life.
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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Herms » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:55 pm

VegettoEX wrote:Taking it slightly off the track a bit, but weren't we (and Meri specifically) talking more about the internal culture of the race, rather than the raw events of what happens?
Well, there's a lot of information on that too...but that's probably a whole different thread.

Anyway, I know "I want more info Saiyan history" is definitely something I've heard a lot of fans say. Maybe you and Meri on the latest podcast weren't the best example of that, but it was the most recent example, and was what got me thinking of this thread in the first place, so I cited it. Maybe I should take that whole opening bit out though, if it's just going to distract too much from the main purpose of the thread.
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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Eire » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:16 pm

By the way, in both the original and the remake, the Saiyans are indeed shown arriving in one big spaceship. So DBGT #27 does contradict this story a bit. Additionally, in the OVA, the Saiyans are shown peacefully shaking hands with the Tsufruians when they first arrive, while they look quite menacing when exiting their Attack Balls in DBGT. The idea in the OVA was that the Saiyans were begging the Tsufruians for help, while DBGT makes it seem like they were invading the planet.
One idea doesn't rule out another. Like in real life we her this story from many mouths, formed by different brains. There's no two relations showing the same event identically. Even if we list all known facts it's easy to manipulate them by stressing one and disdain other. When it comes to relations of people involved into events who really have business into convincing us we have lots of noises: misinformation, lies, concealments, emotional manipulation. Therefore in good fiction we shouldn't take informations given by characters as a true statement, but think about motives and possibility of knowing the truth.
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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Fox666 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:08 pm

I would say that Toriyama's notes about the saiyans for the anime staff should be ignored for the manga story.

Initially, Toriyama had no idea of Freeza and the Planet Trade organization. Because of that, he made up a story about the saiyans getting their technology from a race that lived with them in their planet.

Later Toriyama clearly ignored anything of that sort, since it never made it up to the manga, there was no problem with it.

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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:05 pm

Awesome guide, Herms! It answers a lot for me.
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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Michsi » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:22 am

Personally , if I'd been in Toriyama's shoes instead of Android/Cell Saga and the Buu Saga I would've kept things Saiyan history/Planet Trage organisation related. If you ask me, those two are a plot gold mine.

Throwing info around like perhaps the race now known as the Saiyans are a species who won and survived a historical battle. just leaves you wantineg more while knowing you will never get more than that :shock:

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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Senzu_Bean » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:41 am

Great, amazing, superb, etc. work as usual, Herms. :)
Herms wrote:Raditz says that he and another Saiyan were off attacking planets, while another one was “sent off” to a planet “like Goku”.
That isn't necessarily a plothole because Vegeta was indeed sent into a weak planet, otherwise he wouldn't kill the entire population of said planet and no one expect him to be stronger than Raditz at the age of 5. Sure the line sounds like Vegeta was sent, like Goku, as a baby but that doesn't have to be true since all young Saiyans, not matter how stronger they are, were always sent into weak planets.
Fox666 wrote:I would say that Toriyama's notes about the saiyans for the anime staff should be ignored for the manga story.
Not, they shouldn't. After all the Saiyans have been space pirates for millenniums. They had to possess some technology to do that. Not to mention the Saibamen are created by Saiyans. What should be ignored are the Tsufurus and Vegeta's father ever coexisted and that the whole "war" happened a few decades ago. That was never the intention of Akira Toriyama.

The Tsufurus and the Saiyans coexisted millenniums ago, before the latter are even spare pirates. Basically the Tsufurus allowed the Saiyans to become space pirates. That is what Akira Toriyama intended.

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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:16 pm

Senzu_Bean wrote:Great, amazing, superb, etc. work as usual, Herms. :)
Herms wrote:Raditz says that he and another Saiyan were off attacking planets, while another one was “sent off” to a planet “like Goku”.
That isn't necessarily a plothole because Vegeta was indeed sent into a weak planet, otherwise he wouldn't kill the entire population of said planet and no one expect him to be stronger than Raditz at the age of 5. Sure the line sounds like Vegeta was sent, like Goku, as a baby but that doesn't have to be true since all young Saiyans, not matter how stronger they are, were always sent into weak planets.
I just put it down to Toriyama not having planned ahead. Vegeta and Nappa are first shown at the end of Volume 17, and up until Volume 19, we don't hear anything about Saiyan classes and whatnot until Vegeta's speech to Goku before their battle (yeah, Nappa says he's an "elite warrior of the nobility", but Raditz says he's a "top-class warrior", so I put it down to an arrogant way of saying they're really good at fighting). It's likely, before that point, Toriyama had just envisioned Vegeta and Nappa as just being Saiyans who were stronger than Raditz, rather than having a class system set out in his mind.

And this is just my personal opinion, but I don't see low-class and elite-class Saiyans knocking about with each other. Vegeta and Nappa (who are our only examples) treat Raditz like trash. I think they only banded together because they were the last Saiyans, after all. Plus, it's said that children are sent to weak planets, while adults are sent to strong planets. Since this naturally corresponds with power, I think your power decides which planet you're assigned to. And, obviously, Raditz is much weaker than Vegeta and Nappa.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:21 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:And this is just my personal opinion, but I don't see low-class and elite-class Saiyans knocking about with each other. Vegeta and Nappa (who are our only examples) treat Raditz like trash. I think they only banded together because they were the last Saiyans, after all. Plus, it's said that children are sent to weak planets, while adults are sent to strong planets. Since this naturally corresponds with power, I think your power decides which planet you're assigned to. And, obviously, Raditz is much weaker than Vegeta and Nappa.
I think Raditz lied about him hanging out with Nappa or Vegeta and it was him, who was the one sent to a weak planet as a baby, which would support the Bardock Special somewhat...

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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:24 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
Piccolo Daimao wrote:And this is just my personal opinion, but I don't see low-class and elite-class Saiyans knocking about with each other. Vegeta and Nappa (who are our only examples) treat Raditz like trash. I think they only banded together because they were the last Saiyans, after all. Plus, it's said that children are sent to weak planets, while adults are sent to strong planets. Since this naturally corresponds with power, I think your power decides which planet you're assigned to. And, obviously, Raditz is much weaker than Vegeta and Nappa.
I think Raditz lied about him hanging out with Nappa or Vegeta and it was him, who was the one sent to a weak planet as a baby, which would support the Bardock Special somewhat...
What reason does Raditz have to lie?
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: Saiyan History 101

Post by Senzu_Bean » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:26 pm

The only reason Raditz went to Earth was cause he, Vegeta and Nappa aren't strong enough conquer whatever planet they ere to conquer. Of course they banded together.

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