Continuing:dragon boss z wrote:
[spoiler]Even trunks (kid trunks) was surprised that he actually pushed Ssj2 Goku back, and was strong enough to fight him:
This doesn't prove much, but it does show relevance to how powerful Future Trunks is (no one noted that Goku held back, but it doesn't matter since it is mentioned by Kid Trunks who knows nothing of his future self and wouldn't expect much of himself either way). Consider this as a token rather than anything, but keep this in mind as well.
Goku's Ssj2 was so powerful against Zamasu, that Gowasu even states that Goku's power rivals a God Of Destruction:
We do know how absurd this statement is, but it stays factual that Gowasu was even comparing Goku to a God Of Destruction. That ALONE is so much proof to show that SsjG BoG is nothing to current Goku. Goku mentions that this fight reminded him of when he fought Beerus as a SsjG last time bases on its intensity and power:
Heck, Goku even states that he has room to become as strong as Beerus (implying that Zamasu's strength is at least on par with Goku after his God Power up from BoG arc):
We already established that Goku's base is far beyond that level of strength whatsoever, which implies that Goku was holding back against Zamasu. Goku always tests his opponents and holds back against them, which is also implied by Krillin when Goku dashes towards Jiren
A Better proof that Goku was holding back against Zamasu was when Zamasu wanted to kill Goku after his plan got exposed. Zamasu already attacked/was attacking Goku and Goku performed a stance and was about to block his attack in base form:
This All shows that Goku's Base is Stronger than Zamasu, who's equal to Goku Post God Power up in BoG Arc, or the Beerus who was holding back against Goku (hence Goku referenced Beerus earlier on). Yet Goku was confident in beating him in Base Form (Zamasu trying to Kill everybody and proceed with his predetermined plan is just him being in denial, because he knows Beerus, Whis, and Goku who defeated him earlier on are there).
Right now, I'll be showing concrete evidence on Why Goku was holding back against Trunks (Though Trunks is comparable or even beyond SsjG BoG), and how Goku having trouble against Goku Black doesn't prove that Goku is weaker.
First, let's start with analysing Goku vs Trunks, a battle which has increased the controversy behind this topic
Goku tells Trunks that he "isn't half bad". This suggests that Goku is crediting him for improving to such an extent of power, however it's quite obvious from this statement that Goku is measuring Trunks and that's all:
We already know that Goku has a bad habit of holding back against his opponents:
So, Goku is testing Trunks, that's all. However that is not to say that Trunks is weak, since as we showed before, Beerus complements Trunks's power quite a lot it seems. Whis becomes concerned about Goku Black's Power when he learns of Trunks's power, already knowing that it's fodder against Goku black:
This is an important point to us that Trunks really is strong. But Trunks is still not a God Tier. We already showed how sensing the Ki of a God means that you're a God Tier character, but then Trunks couldn't sense God Ki at all from Vegeta when he went SsjB:
This is supported by how Hit and Cabba were able to sense God Ki, who were proven to be a match to our heroes:
Trunks confirms that he's nowhere near Goku Black even as a Ssj2, and that he kept powering up each time they fought:
This obviously means Goku is holding back, as Goku was also capable of sensing Beerus's God Ki easily after The Universe 6 Tournament:
However Let's continue and not rush things. We'll show exactly as much evidence as you need to understand that Goku was holding back and is far beyond Trunks. Trunks then states he'll go full power against Ssj3 Goku, still fails though:
Trunks claims that Goku Black is as strong, and maybe even stronger than Ssj3 Goku:
Recall that Trunks stated that the Goku Black from the future seemed to be stronger than the one Goku fought?:
So I guess that would mean Goku Black is also not much far away from Trunks, making Goku far weaker than SsjG BoG right??? WRONG
While I understand that this has been stated directly, I'll show you how it absolutely makes no sense and is contradicted later on.
This can neatly be explained if we go and dissect Goku's battle with Goku Black when they fought for the first time
For starters, let's mention that Vegeta tells Trunks that he's absolutely no match against Black, despite not complaining about Goku having a go at him, even though Vegeta knows Goku's bad habit of holding back against his opponents at first, which is further proven when Goku Black and Goku state to each other to stop measuring each other's strengths:
Second Thing is, Trunks mentions that Goku Black is a little bit weaker than from the future, and bolding it "a little bit", who originally stomped Trunks and easily dealt with him without much Trouble at all:
This Goku Black was dealt with Ssj2 Goku, who wasn't going all out (we'll also show this later on), despite Trunks stating that Goku Black is on par, if not stronger, than Ssj3 Goku who fought Trunks. This would mean Ssj2 Goku against Goku Black is beyond What he showed to Trunks.
At the same time, you might try to argue that this proves Goku Black isn't far from Trunks, making him below God Tier, right?
Problem is, This completely contradicts what's been mentioned in the fight between him and Goku.
Goku Black sends a Ki blast towards Base Goku, throwing him far behind. The Ki blast is strong enough to completely corner Base Goku and overpower him:
We already are seeing Base Goku struggling against Goku Black. Yes, Goku has the habit of holding back at first, but never has it been stated or implied later that Goku held back in base out there, unlike with Present Zamasu and Trunks. Goku then tells Goku Black that this can't be all the power he got, BASED on The power which pushed Base Goku back, going Ssj2:
Then Goku dashes towards Goku Black and attacks him. Goku Black then states this:
This implies that Goku's power is Stronger Than anything Goku Black fought, establishing a fact that the power Goku used Against black far exceeds what Trunks has ever demonstrated. This ultimately means that Trunks is fodder to Ssj2 Goku, despite us "seeing" that he went up against Ssj2 Goku. Ssj3 Goku solo'd Trunks easily, and has been claimed to be equal, if not weaker, than Goku Black. The Way Goku Black was shocked with the power from Goku makes no sense if we were to say that Goku wasn't holding back against Trunks. This goes to show that Trunks is fodder to Goku, but not Goku Black who was claimed to be even yet stronger In the future.
Goku is surprised that Goku Black's Ki went up:
What reason is there to say that his Ki got up? He already knows that Goku Black is as strong, if not stronger, than the power he showed trunks as a Ssj3 (Trunks adds doubt to his words when he says he might be above Even Goku, so it's a conclusion that Goku Black isn't far at all from Ssj3 Goku). According To Trunks, Goku Black showed strength beyond what he showed Goku, yet Goku still asks Trunks about that despite hearing his strength earlier on. This overlaps with the statement from Goku's battle with Trunks, which absolutely make no sense for it to be even mentioned In the first place, rendering Trunks's estimated mention of strength to Goku wrong (the one about being above Ssj3 Goku by a little). Now we are open to the possibility of Goku Black being God Tier as easily as possible.
Goku Black confirms that Goku is the strongest Saiyan he ever fought, and he's concerned about his power:
More confirmation that Goku is far beyond Trunks. Also, remember when Goku Black implied Goku is the strongest he ever fought (before this point by a couple of others)? He never once mentioned something like "So this is the power of Super Saiyan Trunks", but only Goku, implying the existence of a huge gap.
Goku Black equally trades blows with Ssj2 Goku:
It's obvious Goku is having trouble here, despite however, both of them are "measuring each other". Still, measuring each other is showing us that they're THIS strong. It completely contradicts what's been mentioned before and implied by Trunks earlier.
Krillin states that Goku Black's power is rising:
Here, Goku Black overpowered Goku partly and even hurt him enough to scream and power up. It's evident at this point that Goku Black is not far from Goku who we proved to be beyond SsjG BoG By far in base form. No one is questioning why Goku went Ssj2 to fight Goku Black, as to say that he is far stronger in just base form, unlike with Trunks, in which it's confirmed Goku just decided to test him.
Trunks states why Goku isn't using Ssj3, which Vegeta answers him about his Habit of holding back:
Before anyone jump the guns and say that Ssj3 Goku against Trunks > Ssj2 Goku against Goku Black, no. We already showed before that Goku Black is more than enough to fight Goku without holding back as against Trunks, so this only means that Trunks is referring to Ssj3, hence the footage shows Goku going Ssj3 rather than a mention of his power back then directly.
Goku is willing to see Goku Black's power, proving that he's holding back, confirmed by Goku Black himself:
Goku Then DIRECTLY states that he should put out some SERIOUS work to force him to Go Full Power (Goku is directly saying he's going serious against him, not full power though, but serious, which defines itself and our argument entirely):
Goku overpowers him for some time until Goku Black powers up and overpowers Goku:
Based on the expression of pain given to Goku Black, Goku's obvious trial in a serious tone, and Goku Black overpowering that, it's kind of obvious that Goku Black is indeed a God Tier Thread. It's already evident enough.
Goku Black raises his power again, and everyone is surprised. It's implied that Ssj2 Goku is at least needed to fight Goku Black when Trunks asks why he didn't go Ssj3. Vegeta doesn't answer him that it isn't needed, but that he's always holding back, while the context was about him going Ssj3 to win against Goku Black:
Yet Goku manages to hurt Goku Black (when he was distracted though, but still hurt him enough):
Goku Black is so pained from Goku's attacks he falls to the ground when he returns back to the future, and reimplies that Goku is the strongest character he ever fought BY FAR. He even gets so strong he blitzes a suppressed SsjB Vegeta later on. Frankly speaking, this is so much evidence and proof on its own:
Another point is that Goku was worried about how much will Goku Black become stronger, but there's no reason if he's a complete fodder to SsjG:
All of this establishes that Goku Black is a God Tier Character, and Trunks is a high-tier (perhaps even more) Buu Saga Tier/Low BoG Saga Tier (Less than SsjG BoG though)
Now Let's continue our road to prove that Goku in base form is far beyond SsjG BoG.
Goku SsjB was capable of overpowering Merged Zamasu, who's a fusion between Ssj Rose Goku Black (Post scythe) and Future Zamasu (Relative to SsjB Goku).
Some of you might argue that Merged Zamasu was suppressed and let his guard down.....
Um what? According to what we were witnessing, nothing of that sort has been shown to us. I'll prove it down now
At This point, Merged Zamasu was already mad when The Father-Son Galick Gun overpowered his blast. So he wasn't up to holding back at all.
Goku is already mad, and so by the Arc's logic, Goku's anger pushed him into further heights of strengths. Goku and Merged Zamasu throw their blasts at each other:
So where is the "holding back" or "let his guard down" point? I mean, this is kind of... WEIRD to say the least. Goku's Kamehameha and Merged Zamasu's holy wrath clash:
Merged Zamasu is shown struggling along with Goku:
This has angered Merged Zamasu even more, and results him in powering up further. I'd be delighted to see where was he holding back:
At the end of Episode 64, Goku's Kamehameha overpowers Merged Zamasu:
The next episode, Goku is seen to be struggling further against The Holy Wrath, but overpowers it and troubles Merged Zamasu:
This forces Merged Zamasu to throw out as much power as he can:
Goku goes full power and overpowers Merged Zamasu utterly:
Heck, Goku manages to destroy Zamasu completely:
For some reason this scene is forgotten, considering it means a lot go the issue of this entire post. Now that I brought it up, some of you might ask: "what relevance does this hold to the entire topic?". Well, I'm glad you asked.
This is the Potara fusion between Goku Black Super Saiyan Rose (Post scythe, who surpassed both Goku and Vegeta prior to getting angry against Merged Zamasu), and Future Zamasu (Who was able to go head to head against SsjB Goku). Basically, how much power should you have to overpower Merged Zamasu?
Potara Fusion is A × B:
The scan states that the Potara is as amazing as "multiplication". This would be depicted to be equivalent to Multiplication, or even Higher. Fusion Dance is multiplication:
According to Herms, it states that Fusion Dance is Multiplication:
The depiction given by the Super Exciting Guide is an estimation, giving Potara multiplier "multiplication". That means, at the very least, It's multiplication, but it also could be higher.
Dragon Ball Z Anime shows Goku telling Vegeta that their powers will be multiplied:
Now some of you will come mentioning 2 points:
1) It doesn't make sense (proceeding to give an example about Battle Powers)
Clarification: Stop, because there's no reason to give an example of a scale which absolutely makes no sense. We know that their powers multiply, that's all. Just That, examples and so on are unneeded, because it just increases the controversy which has no reason to exist in the first place. Offical material state this for us, so no need for trying to debunk something. Daizenshuu implies that power levels became immeasurable, and power levels have no use anymore due to their strengths being increased. So, reusing the concept of Battle Powers is wrong. However, understanding the concept is not wrong. For example, Fusion Dance is Multiplication. That's That, so no need to keep confusing yourself, as the entire concept of "making sense" will never occur in a fictional show which continuously contradicts itself. Just take the facts we are given as they are, without a grain of salt, and don't think too hard about it.
2) Vados states that Potara is the sum of their parts multiplied tens of times. Now that needs serious talk:
This honestly doesn't need much argument, because this has been debunked in the same Episode this statement arrived from. Kefla in base form surpassed SsjG Goku in the Tournament of Power, yet their bases are utter fodder to Goku's base even. That alone is all needed to state that this is absolutely an inconsistency. This case is rested
You might ask then, HOW did Goku get that strong against Merged Zamasu?
At that point, the show was focused on the fact that Saiyans get stronger the more they battle (By getting stronger WHILE AT BATTLE):
DBS made Zenkai Boosts a big deal to the point that you'd get stronger while fighting:
Support:
Even when Goku and Vegeta sensed Merged Zamasu's power, they still strive to go further:
They suggested fusion because Merged Zamasu was powerful enough to kill them before they improve enough.
Another point we need to mention is ANGER. Goku Black implies that Goku and Vegeta get stronger by anger (Goku Black got far stronger than previous when he got angry, utilized it and pulled out the scythe thinggy):
I mentioned this before, but here it is again: An Entire cover up about Zenkais including the Potential of Saiyans and their rate of Power increase during battle and the aftermath of battles. While what we showed above partially makes the point make sense (only partially, as it's still so high), like we discussed before, this is something supported, so we can't just disregard it and say something else. Thus, the point stands.
This makes Goku's base power retardedly stronger than what he originally showed before overpowering Merged Zamasu, and I think you could already get an estimate on it. This proves Goku's base form is beyond SsjG easily, no matter how you slice it. The scale results in this:
Let's continue now.
One year passes, Goku fights Hit, and tells him that he never let anyone he EVER faced surpass him:
(Note: Only exceptions are the characters who are stronger than Beerus or equal to him)
One of the characters who have defeated Goku in the Future Trunks arc is Mutated Merged Zamasu:
The reason Hit could go up Against this Goku is because Hit is far stronger and greater than what he revealed himself to be in the Universe 6 Arc, which is DIRECTLY stated by Goku:
This is only arguable if you tried to state that Mutated Merged Zamasu is above Beerus, but we'll show that later on, why it's wrong.
This is a good consideration of things, which shows that SsjB Goku could very well be above Mutated Zamasu, making his base undoubtly beyond any BoG, RoF, and Black Arc (except fusions and probably mid-high) tier character. You could take this with a grain of salt, but you can't forget it's a usable and hard evidence to back up this point.
Let's now jump into the Tournament of Power Arc.
Here, I'll be Proving why Current Goku surpassed SsjB Vegito from the Black Arc.
Now before you jump the guns and say it doesn't make sense, it actually does, from what's given to us in the show. Check this out, as I'm sure it absolutely DOES prove my point
First, let's look at when SsjG Goku fought Dyspo.
Dyspo is a character who was capable of blitzing Hit, and hurt him equally to his level. This Hit is far stronger than the one SsjB Goku struggled with:
Dyspo was capable of fighting Hit continuously
Hit had trouble fighting Dyspo and was partially overpowered speed-wise and power-wise. Later through the fight, Hit improves and tricks Dyspo. However, Dyspo avoided fighting Final Form Frieza:
Later, Dyspo starts dealing with Frieza (probably because Dyspo increased his speed, which is shown that he can, though not continuously and as he pleases):
Yes, we're seeing Frieza (At the climax of the battle, after the start) stating that Frieza has just begun to see his Speed, but later Beerus proves his speed is increasing, and the same pattern occurs as when he increases his speed thousands of times over. Prior to that, Frieza was manhandling Dyspo easily and stood up after Dyspo grabbed to his tail without any damage whatsoever.
The Golden Frieza Multiplier is above SsjB Multiplier. In RoF, Golden Frieza was stronger than SsjB Goku:
Episode 25
Minute: 9
Freeza: "Judging from the energy I'm sensing, it seems that I will be the victor, does it not?"
Goku: "I think it'll be a close match."
Freeza: "No, I am superior."
Base Goku in RoF arc was stronger than Final Form Frieza. Logically that would make Base Goku in the Tournament of Power above Final Form Frieza. They were portrayed as equals anyways (Both characters pained each other equally {Frieza was choking far worse} and this could be further expanded):
Base Goku was ready to fight Golden Frieza (Goku has absolutely no knowledge of Frieza's improvement in power, so it would make sense given our earlier scales which we deduced):
Each scene defines the other. It's OBVIOUS what the intention is revolving around. Basically, Base Goku ToP Arc > Hit Episode 104 > Hit Episode 71-72 ~ SsjB Goku Episode 71-72. Crazy as it may seem, it's shown to us, and that's more than enough.
Two questions may arrive: 1) That would make hit weaker than Base Goku which is wrong. 2) Why did Goku go SsjG against Dyspo If his base was enough?
Clarification:
1) Wrong, if you're talking in general. Hit was able to withstand the hits from Jiren which combated Ultra Instinct Goku:
Hit was also fast enough to dodge these same punches and escape them, when earlier on Dyspo blitzed that:
Later through the fight, Hit was shown to be able to push a stronger Jiren away. So no, Hit would have improved since the very fight with Dyspo
2) Well, let me ask you this back: Why did Goku go Ssj against Basil despite having his base form way more than enough to combat him? SsjG was just brought back for fan service, as it held no reason in the first place.
Need I mention something: I do know that Final Form Frieza's power in the Tournament is a bit weirdly and confusingly displayed, so if you want to ignore this evidence then fine, do so (there's no reason for that whatsoever though), but the next pieces of evidences and proofs are far more than enough to get the point that Base Goku >>>>> SsjG Goku BoG
Let's continue further now
Goku's Current SsjB Form is far stronger than his Ultra Instinct Form on Episode 110. I'll show this now
Kaioshin implies that Jiren's glare and one hand is far more powerful than anything they ever felt before, including Infinite Zamasu. Whis then states that he dares say his power is equivalent to a God Of Destruction (Quickly remember what we said about Mutated Merged Zamasu vs Beerus? this implies Gods of Destruction IN GENERAL are stronger than Zamasu), and perhaps surpassed it, concluding that the Rumor is true, while Vermouth agrees:
Beerus freaked out from Jiren's energy while Beerus didn't react much to Infinite Zamasu at all:
Notice The difference in reactions. Also, Whis says nothing about Zamasu's energy being above a God Of Destruction or even wasn't that worried or skeptical, unlike with Jiren.
Goku goes Ultra Instinct, a state which far exceeds the power of the Genki Dama, which was something that Goku thought would beat Jiren, the guy who oneshotted Goku SsjB Kaioken x20 with his eyes. Goku combats him and manages to Hit that same Jiren:
Goku throughout the Tournament becomes stronger than his Ultra Instinct Counterpart from Episode 110 in SsjB Form.
Goku on Episode 122 powers up to a huge extent, and Jiren is serious + is shocked after realizing what Goku is doing (the sudden Burst Goku does), while Jiren wasn't surprised by Goku's Earlier levels on Episode 109 and 110 at all except for the trick Goku did with the Kamehameha:
I know this doesn't show anything so major at all, this is a starting point but it does give a view of what's to be shown next. If we manage to prove that SsjB Goku on episodes 122+ is stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku on Episode 110, this would upgrade his base form far beyond SsjG BoG with utmost ease.
Goku fights Jiren far better than he did with him on Episode 109:
Later on, Jiren powers up even further (he solos both Goku and Vegeta far more easily). This is shown by Vegeta not even affecting Jiren at all. However, Vegeta states something interesting:
Vegeta has encountered Mutated Merged Zamasu's all out energy (which was capable of going head to head with Vegito's energy, and withstood a Final Kamehameha). This also includes Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 110, Kefla and the newly improved Hit from Episode 111.
Vegeta still is confident of fighting ahead against Jiren:
You might argue he's just in denial. True, that's a worthy argument. This is heavily contradicted to what Vegeta did against Jiren. Vegeta made Jiren wet himself when Vegeta managed to hit Jiren:
Vegeta even trade blows with this same Jiren later on:
Do remember, that this Jiren is far stronger than anything Vegeta ever felt prior to this moment. "For some reason" Vermouth is also shocked....!:
Vegeta then charges the final flash. This power has let even Vermouth to wonder about the power of Saiyans despite having seen a Saiyan who achieved ultra instinct. He even got worried hilariously:
The statement Vermouth said about how can Vegeta's final flash have power higher than he did previously implies Vegeta's SsjB being above anything universe 7 has showed before. Vermouth's statement is suggesting that Vegeta's power can't be higher than what it is before, but after it he wonders about Saiyan Potentials. If Ultra Instinct is within Saiyan's potential, then it wouldn't be a surprise unless Vegeta's earlier level was shocking and more than Ultra Instinct episode 110 in the first place.
Despite Vegeta already witnessing Jiren's durability and everything to even withstand Ultra Instinct Goku's attacks and his previous attacks as well, Vegeta believes that his blast is enough to deal with Jiren and end his case:
https://pm1.narvii.com/6738/24b0e8ada05 ... 8v2_hq.jpg
Beerus believes Jiren would lose against Final Flash (Jiren is suppressed here though):
And it actually does make Jiren get serious and block with two hands. It also throws him down on the ground for a couple of seconds:
Toppo was worried, while he didn't show any such sign when Goku went to fight Jiren in Ultra Instinct on Episode 110:
Getting onto Episode 123. Goku and Vegeta are shocked that Jiren could walk right through Goku's traps as if it's something amazing, despite tanking attacks which are "supposed" to be better (implying Goku magically got stronger, though this is further supported down the road) (The reaction of Goku, and Vegeta's wonder is the surprise):
Goku fights Jiren while having his aura visible around him (never has Jiren done that before while fighting, and Jiren supposedly is ticked of due to what Goku did to him, which made him far more serious):
Jiren becomes more than just serious, and Vermouth comments that he senses a rise in Jiren and that he never has seen him that serious in a VERY LONG TIME:
This Jiren far surpasses anything Jiren has showed before, and Goku powers up, actually trading blows with that same Jiren:
Jiren got even more serious, by showing a hint of his power only, thus returning Goku to his base form.
Jiren's "hint" of his real power is the strongest thing Goku ever felt and witnessed:
Goku goes Kaioken x20 (It's stated he goes full power), and Beerus believes that Goku has a shot against this same Jiren:
Vegeta Also transforms, and both Vegeta and Goku attack Jiren together, and Jiren credits both of them to have become far stronger than before:
What I found interesting is that The Narrator states that BOTH Goku AND Vegeta are together in their limit-breaking forms, despite Goku only being in Kaioken x20, and the fact that Goku has already stated that he got the hang of Ultra Instinct (which originally is his limit breaking power, which has pushed Goku into ultimately new heights, yet Kaioken x20 {episode 123} transcends beyond that):
Apparently This case has shifted far beyond than whether current SsjB Goku or Vegeta surpassed Ultra Instinct Goku on Episode 110, into how much did they get stronger[/u]
On Episode 127, Jiren shows his true strength, which is implied to be above anything else that has been revealed:
Goku, Vegeta and Android 17 manage to fight Jiren (although they're on teams, if they're far too inferior, Team Work would be rendered invalid):
Vegeta even manages to push Jiren and keep up with him (Goku's SsjB alone is relative to Vegeta as Both Goku and Vegeta are going on equal perspectives against Jiren):
This basically settles the case[/spoiler]