The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Continuing:

[spoiler]Even trunks (kid trunks) was surprised that he actually pushed Ssj2 Goku back, and was strong enough to fight him:



This doesn't prove much, but it does show relevance to how powerful Future Trunks is (no one noted that Goku held back, but it doesn't matter since it is mentioned by Kid Trunks who knows nothing of his future self and wouldn't expect much of himself either way). Consider this as a token rather than anything, but keep this in mind as well.

Goku's Ssj2 was so powerful against Zamasu, that Gowasu even states that Goku's power rivals a God Of Destruction:



We do know how absurd this statement is, but it stays factual that Gowasu was even comparing Goku to a God Of Destruction. That ALONE is so much proof to show that SsjG BoG is nothing to current Goku. Goku mentions that this fight reminded him of when he fought Beerus as a SsjG last time bases on its intensity and power:



Heck, Goku even states that he has room to become as strong as Beerus (implying that Zamasu's strength is at least on par with Goku after his God Power up from BoG arc):





We already established that Goku's base is far beyond that level of strength whatsoever, which implies that Goku was holding back against Zamasu. Goku always tests his opponents and holds back against them, which is also implied by Krillin when Goku dashes towards Jiren

A Better proof that Goku was holding back against Zamasu was when Zamasu wanted to kill Goku after his plan got exposed. Zamasu already attacked/was attacking Goku and Goku performed a stance and was about to block his attack in base form:











This All shows that Goku's Base is Stronger than Zamasu, who's equal to Goku Post God Power up in BoG Arc, or the Beerus who was holding back against Goku (hence Goku referenced Beerus earlier on). Yet Goku was confident in beating him in Base Form (Zamasu trying to Kill everybody and proceed with his predetermined plan is just him being in denial, because he knows Beerus, Whis, and Goku who defeated him earlier on are there).

Right now, I'll be showing concrete evidence on Why Goku was holding back against Trunks (Though Trunks is comparable or even beyond SsjG BoG), and how Goku having trouble against Goku Black doesn't prove that Goku is weaker.

First, let's start with analysing Goku vs Trunks, a battle which has increased the controversy behind this topic

Goku tells Trunks that he "isn't half bad". This suggests that Goku is crediting him for improving to such an extent of power, however it's quite obvious from this statement that Goku is measuring Trunks and that's all:



We already know that Goku has a bad habit of holding back against his opponents:



So, Goku is testing Trunks, that's all. However that is not to say that Trunks is weak, since as we showed before, Beerus complements Trunks's power quite a lot it seems. Whis becomes concerned about Goku Black's Power when he learns of Trunks's power, already knowing that it's fodder against Goku black:



This is an important point to us that Trunks really is strong. But Trunks is still not a God Tier. We already showed how sensing the Ki of a God means that you're a God Tier character, but then Trunks couldn't sense God Ki at all from Vegeta when he went SsjB:



This is supported by how Hit and Cabba were able to sense God Ki, who were proven to be a match to our heroes:





Trunks confirms that he's nowhere near Goku Black even as a Ssj2, and that he kept powering up each time they fought:





This obviously means Goku is holding back, as Goku was also capable of sensing Beerus's God Ki easily after The Universe 6 Tournament:



However Let's continue and not rush things. We'll show exactly as much evidence as you need to understand that Goku was holding back and is far beyond Trunks. Trunks then states he'll go full power against Ssj3 Goku, still fails though:



Trunks claims that Goku Black is as strong, and maybe even stronger than Ssj3 Goku:





Recall that Trunks stated that the Goku Black from the future seemed to be stronger than the one Goku fought?:





So I guess that would mean Goku Black is also not much far away from Trunks, making Goku far weaker than SsjG BoG right??? WRONG

While I understand that this has been stated directly, I'll show you how it absolutely makes no sense and is contradicted later on.

This can neatly be explained if we go and dissect Goku's battle with Goku Black when they fought for the first time

For starters, let's mention that Vegeta tells Trunks that he's absolutely no match against Black, despite not complaining about Goku having a go at him, even though Vegeta knows Goku's bad habit of holding back against his opponents at first, which is further proven when Goku Black and Goku state to each other to stop measuring each other's strengths:



Second Thing is, Trunks mentions that Goku Black is a little bit weaker than from the future, and bolding it "a little bit", who originally stomped Trunks and easily dealt with him without much Trouble at all:







This Goku Black was dealt with Ssj2 Goku, who wasn't going all out (we'll also show this later on), despite Trunks stating that Goku Black is on par, if not stronger, than Ssj3 Goku who fought Trunks. This would mean Ssj2 Goku against Goku Black is beyond What he showed to Trunks.

At the same time, you might try to argue that this proves Goku Black isn't far from Trunks, making him below God Tier, right?

Problem is, This completely contradicts what's been mentioned in the fight between him and Goku.

Goku Black sends a Ki blast towards Base Goku, throwing him far behind. The Ki blast is strong enough to completely corner Base Goku and overpower him:









We already are seeing Base Goku struggling against Goku Black. Yes, Goku has the habit of holding back at first, but never has it been stated or implied later that Goku held back in base out there, unlike with Present Zamasu and Trunks. Goku then tells Goku Black that this can't be all the power he got, BASED on The power which pushed Base Goku back, going Ssj2:





Then Goku dashes towards Goku Black and attacks him. Goku Black then states this:





This implies that Goku's power is Stronger Than anything Goku Black fought, establishing a fact that the power Goku used Against black far exceeds what Trunks has ever demonstrated. This ultimately means that Trunks is fodder to Ssj2 Goku, despite us "seeing" that he went up against Ssj2 Goku. Ssj3 Goku solo'd Trunks easily, and has been claimed to be equal, if not weaker, than Goku Black. The Way Goku Black was shocked with the power from Goku makes no sense if we were to say that Goku wasn't holding back against Trunks. This goes to show that Trunks is fodder to Goku, but not Goku Black who was claimed to be even yet stronger In the future.

Goku is surprised that Goku Black's Ki went up:



What reason is there to say that his Ki got up? He already knows that Goku Black is as strong, if not stronger, than the power he showed trunks as a Ssj3 (Trunks adds doubt to his words when he says he might be above Even Goku, so it's a conclusion that Goku Black isn't far at all from Ssj3 Goku). According To Trunks, Goku Black showed strength beyond what he showed Goku, yet Goku still asks Trunks about that despite hearing his strength earlier on. This overlaps with the statement from Goku's battle with Trunks, which absolutely make no sense for it to be even mentioned In the first place, rendering Trunks's estimated mention of strength to Goku wrong (the one about being above Ssj3 Goku by a little). Now we are open to the possibility of Goku Black being God Tier as easily as possible.

Goku Black confirms that Goku is the strongest Saiyan he ever fought, and he's concerned about his power:





More confirmation that Goku is far beyond Trunks. Also, remember when Goku Black implied Goku is the strongest he ever fought (before this point by a couple of others)? He never once mentioned something like "So this is the power of Super Saiyan Trunks", but only Goku, implying the existence of a huge gap.

Goku Black equally trades blows with Ssj2 Goku:







It's obvious Goku is having trouble here, despite however, both of them are "measuring each other". Still, measuring each other is showing us that they're THIS strong. It completely contradicts what's  been mentioned before and implied by Trunks earlier.

Krillin states that Goku Black's power is rising:



Here, Goku Black overpowered Goku partly and even hurt him enough to scream and power up. It's evident at this point that Goku Black is not far from Goku who we proved to be beyond SsjG BoG By far in base form. No one is questioning why Goku went Ssj2 to fight Goku Black, as to say that he is far stronger in just base form, unlike with Trunks, in which it's confirmed Goku just decided to test him.

Trunks states why Goku isn't using Ssj3, which Vegeta answers him about his Habit of holding back:



Before anyone jump the guns and say that Ssj3 Goku against Trunks > Ssj2 Goku against Goku Black, no. We already showed before that Goku Black is more than enough to fight Goku without holding back as against Trunks, so this only means that Trunks is referring to Ssj3, hence the footage shows Goku going Ssj3 rather than a mention of his power back then directly.

Goku is willing to see Goku Black's power, proving that he's holding back, confirmed by Goku Black himself:





Goku Then DIRECTLY states that he should put out some SERIOUS work to force him to Go Full Power (Goku is directly saying he's going serious against him, not full power though, but serious, which defines itself and our argument entirely):



Goku overpowers him for some time until Goku Black powers up and overpowers Goku:













Based on the expression of pain given to Goku Black, Goku's obvious trial in a serious tone, and Goku Black overpowering that, it's kind of obvious that Goku Black is indeed a God Tier Thread. It's already evident enough.

Goku Black raises his power again, and everyone is surprised. It's implied that Ssj2 Goku is at least needed to fight Goku Black when Trunks asks why he didn't go Ssj3. Vegeta doesn't answer him that it isn't needed, but that he's always holding back, while the context was about him going Ssj3 to win against Goku Black:



Yet Goku manages to hurt Goku Black (when he was distracted though, but still hurt him enough):





Goku Black is so pained from Goku's attacks he falls to the ground when he returns back to the future, and reimplies that Goku is the strongest character he ever fought BY FAR. He even gets so strong he blitzes a suppressed SsjB Vegeta later on. Frankly speaking, this is so much evidence and proof on its own:





















Another point is that Goku was worried about how much will Goku Black become stronger, but there's no reason if he's a complete fodder to SsjG:





All of this establishes that Goku Black is a God Tier Character, and Trunks is a high-tier (perhaps even more) Buu Saga Tier/Low BoG Saga Tier (Less than SsjG BoG though)

Now Let's continue our road to prove that Goku in base form is far beyond SsjG BoG.

Goku SsjB was capable of overpowering Merged Zamasu, who's a fusion between Ssj Rose Goku Black (Post scythe) and Future Zamasu (Relative to SsjB Goku).

Some of you might argue that Merged Zamasu was suppressed and let his guard down.....

Um what? According to what we were witnessing, nothing of that sort has been shown to us. I'll prove it down now

At This point, Merged Zamasu was already mad when The Father-Son Galick Gun overpowered his blast. So he wasn't up to holding back at all.

Goku is already mad, and so by the Arc's logic, Goku's anger pushed him into further heights of strengths. Goku and Merged Zamasu throw their blasts at each other:











So where is the "holding back" or "let his guard down" point? I mean, this is kind of... WEIRD to say the least. Goku's Kamehameha and Merged Zamasu's holy wrath clash:



Merged Zamasu is shown struggling along with Goku:





This has angered Merged Zamasu even more, and results him in powering up further. I'd be delighted to see where was he holding back:





At the end of Episode 64, Goku's Kamehameha overpowers Merged Zamasu:





The next episode, Goku is seen to be struggling further against The Holy Wrath, but overpowers it and troubles Merged Zamasu:







This forces Merged Zamasu to throw out as much power as he can:



Goku goes full power and overpowers Merged Zamasu utterly:







Heck, Goku manages to destroy Zamasu completely:







For some reason this scene is forgotten, considering it means a lot go the issue of this entire post. Now that I brought it up, some of you might ask: "what relevance does this hold to the entire topic?". Well, I'm glad you asked.

This is the Potara fusion between Goku Black Super Saiyan Rose (Post scythe, who surpassed both Goku and Vegeta prior to getting angry against Merged Zamasu), and Future Zamasu (Who was able to go head to head against SsjB Goku). Basically, how much power should you have to overpower Merged Zamasu?

Potara Fusion is A × B:







The scan states that the Potara is as amazing as "multiplication". This would be depicted to be equivalent to Multiplication, or even Higher. Fusion Dance is multiplication:



According to Herms, it states that Fusion Dance is Multiplication:



The depiction given by the Super Exciting Guide is an estimation, giving Potara multiplier "multiplication". That means, at the very least, It's multiplication, but it also could be higher.

Dragon Ball Z Anime shows Goku telling Vegeta that their powers will be multiplied:



Now some of you will come mentioning 2 points:

1) It doesn't make sense (proceeding to give an example about Battle Powers)

Clarification: Stop, because there's no reason to give an example of a scale which absolutely makes no sense. We know that their powers multiply, that's all. Just That, examples and so on are unneeded, because it just increases the controversy which has no reason to exist in the first place. Offical material state this for us, so no need for trying to debunk something. Daizenshuu implies that power levels became immeasurable, and power levels have no use anymore due to their strengths being increased. So, reusing the concept of Battle Powers is wrong. However, understanding the concept is not wrong. For example, Fusion Dance is Multiplication. That's That, so no need to keep confusing yourself, as the entire concept of "making sense" will never occur in a fictional show which continuously contradicts itself. Just take the facts we are given as they are, without a grain of salt, and don't think too hard about it.

2) Vados states that Potara is the sum of their parts multiplied tens of times. Now that needs serious talk:





This honestly doesn't need much argument, because this has been debunked in the same Episode this statement arrived from. Kefla in base form surpassed SsjG Goku in the Tournament of Power, yet their bases are utter fodder to Goku's base even. That alone is all needed to state that this is absolutely an inconsistency. This case is rested

You might ask then, HOW did Goku get that strong against Merged Zamasu?

At that point, the show was focused on the fact that Saiyans get stronger the more they battle (By getting stronger WHILE AT BATTLE):



DBS made Zenkai Boosts a big deal to the point that you'd get stronger while fighting:



Support:

Even when Goku and Vegeta sensed Merged Zamasu's power, they still strive to go further:







They suggested fusion because Merged Zamasu was powerful enough to kill them before they improve enough.

Another point we need to mention is ANGER. Goku Black implies that Goku and Vegeta get stronger by anger (Goku Black got far stronger than previous when he got angry, utilized it and pulled out the scythe thinggy):



I mentioned this before, but here it is again: An Entire cover up about Zenkais including the Potential of Saiyans and their rate of Power increase during battle and the aftermath of battles. While what we showed above partially makes the point make sense (only partially, as it's still so high), like we discussed before, this is something supported, so we can't just disregard it and say something else. Thus, the point stands.

This makes Goku's base power retardedly stronger than what he originally showed before overpowering Merged Zamasu, and I think you could already get an estimate on it. This proves Goku's base form is beyond SsjG easily, no matter how you slice it. The scale results in this:



Let's continue now.

One year passes, Goku fights Hit, and tells him that he never let anyone he EVER faced surpass him:



(Note: Only exceptions are the characters who are stronger than Beerus or equal to him)

One of the characters who have defeated Goku in the Future Trunks arc is Mutated Merged Zamasu:



The reason Hit could go up Against this Goku is because Hit is far stronger and greater than what he revealed himself to be in the Universe 6 Arc, which is DIRECTLY stated by Goku:





This is only arguable if you tried to state that Mutated Merged Zamasu is above Beerus, but we'll show that later on, why it's wrong.

This is a good consideration of things, which shows that SsjB Goku could very well be above Mutated Zamasu, making his base undoubtly beyond any BoG, RoF, and Black Arc (except fusions and probably mid-high) tier character. You could take this with a grain of salt, but you can't forget it's a usable and hard evidence to back up this point.

Let's now jump into the Tournament of Power Arc.

Here, I'll be Proving why Current Goku surpassed SsjB Vegito from the Black Arc.

Now before you jump the guns and say it doesn't make sense, it actually does, from what's given to us in the show. Check this out, as I'm sure it absolutely DOES prove my point

First, let's look at when SsjG Goku fought Dyspo.

Dyspo is a character who was capable of blitzing Hit, and hurt him equally to his level. This Hit is far stronger than the one SsjB Goku struggled with:



Dyspo was capable of fighting Hit continuously

Hit had trouble fighting Dyspo and was partially overpowered speed-wise and power-wise. Later through the fight, Hit improves and tricks Dyspo. However, Dyspo avoided fighting Final Form Frieza:





Later, Dyspo starts dealing with Frieza (probably because Dyspo increased his speed, which is shown that he can, though not continuously and as he pleases):

















Yes, we're seeing Frieza (At the climax of the battle, after the start) stating that Frieza has just begun to see his Speed, but later Beerus proves his speed is increasing, and the same pattern occurs as when he increases his speed thousands of times over. Prior to that, Frieza was manhandling Dyspo easily and stood up after Dyspo grabbed to his tail without any damage whatsoever.

The Golden Frieza Multiplier is above SsjB Multiplier. In RoF, Golden Frieza was stronger than SsjB Goku:

Episode 25
Minute: 9
Freeza: "Judging from the energy I'm sensing, it seems that I will be the victor, does it not?"
Goku: "I think it'll be a close match."
Freeza: "No, I am superior."







Base Goku in RoF arc was stronger than Final Form Frieza. Logically that would make Base Goku in the Tournament of Power above Final Form Frieza. They were portrayed as equals anyways (Both characters pained each other equally {Frieza was choking far worse} and this could be further expanded):





Base Goku was ready to fight Golden Frieza (Goku has absolutely no knowledge of Frieza's improvement in power, so it would make sense given our earlier scales which we deduced):











Each scene defines the other. It's OBVIOUS what the intention is revolving around. Basically, Base Goku ToP Arc > Hit Episode 104 > Hit Episode 71-72 ~ SsjB Goku Episode 71-72. Crazy as it may seem, it's shown to us, and that's more than enough.

Two questions may arrive: 1) That would make hit weaker than Base Goku which is wrong. 2) Why did Goku go SsjG against Dyspo If his base was enough?

Clarification:

1) Wrong, if you're talking in general. Hit was able to withstand the hits from Jiren which combated Ultra Instinct Goku:





Hit was also fast enough to dodge these same punches and escape them, when earlier on Dyspo blitzed that:











Later through the fight, Hit was shown to be able to push a stronger Jiren away. So no, Hit would have improved since the very fight with Dyspo

2) Well, let me ask you this back: Why did Goku go Ssj against Basil despite having his base form way more than enough to combat him? SsjG was just brought back for fan service, as it held no reason in the first place.

Need I mention something: I do know that Final Form Frieza's power in the Tournament is a bit weirdly and confusingly displayed, so if you want to ignore this evidence then fine, do so (there's no reason for that whatsoever though), but the next pieces of evidences and proofs are far more than enough to get the point that Base Goku >>>>> SsjG Goku BoG

Let's continue further now

Goku's Current SsjB Form is far stronger than his Ultra Instinct Form on Episode 110. I'll show this now

Kaioshin implies that Jiren's glare and one hand is far more powerful than anything they ever felt before, including Infinite Zamasu. Whis then states that he dares say his power is equivalent to a God Of Destruction (Quickly remember what we said about Mutated Merged Zamasu vs Beerus? this implies Gods of Destruction IN GENERAL are stronger than Zamasu), and perhaps surpassed it, concluding that the Rumor is true, while Vermouth agrees:



Beerus freaked out from Jiren's energy while Beerus didn't react much to Infinite Zamasu at all:













Notice The difference in reactions. Also, Whis says nothing about Zamasu's energy being above a God Of Destruction or even wasn't that worried or skeptical, unlike with Jiren.

Goku goes Ultra Instinct, a state which far exceeds the power of the Genki Dama, which was something that Goku thought would beat Jiren, the guy who oneshotted Goku SsjB Kaioken x20 with his eyes. Goku combats him and manages to Hit that same Jiren:







Goku throughout the Tournament becomes stronger than his Ultra Instinct Counterpart from Episode 110 in SsjB Form.

Goku on Episode 122 powers up to a huge extent, and Jiren is serious + is shocked after realizing what Goku is doing (the sudden Burst Goku does), while Jiren wasn't surprised by Goku's Earlier levels on Episode 109 and 110 at all except for the trick Goku did with the Kamehameha:











I know this doesn't show anything so major at all, this is a starting point but it does give a view of what's to be shown next. If we manage to prove that SsjB Goku on episodes 122+ is stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku on Episode 110, this would upgrade his base form far beyond SsjG BoG with utmost ease.

Goku fights Jiren far better than he did with him on Episode 109:







Later on, Jiren powers up even further (he solos both Goku and Vegeta far more easily). This is shown by Vegeta not even affecting Jiren at all. However, Vegeta states something interesting:



Vegeta has encountered Mutated Merged Zamasu's all out energy (which was capable of going head to head with Vegito's energy, and withstood a Final Kamehameha). This also includes Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 110, Kefla and the newly improved Hit from Episode 111.

Vegeta still is confident of fighting ahead against Jiren:



You might argue he's just in denial. True, that's a worthy argument. This is heavily contradicted to what Vegeta did against Jiren. Vegeta made Jiren wet himself when Vegeta managed to hit Jiren:





Vegeta even trade blows with this same Jiren later on:











Do remember, that this Jiren is far stronger than anything Vegeta ever felt prior to this moment. "For some reason" Vermouth is also shocked....!:









Vegeta then charges the final flash. This power has let even Vermouth to wonder about the power of Saiyans despite having seen a Saiyan who achieved ultra instinct. He even got worried hilariously:







The statement Vermouth said about how can Vegeta's final flash have power higher than he did previously implies Vegeta's SsjB being above anything universe 7 has showed before. Vermouth's statement is suggesting that Vegeta's power can't be higher than what it is before, but after it he wonders about Saiyan Potentials. If Ultra Instinct is within Saiyan's potential, then it wouldn't be a surprise unless Vegeta's earlier level was shocking and more than Ultra Instinct episode 110 in the first place.

Despite Vegeta already witnessing Jiren's durability and everything to even withstand Ultra Instinct Goku's attacks and his previous attacks as well, Vegeta believes that his blast is enough to deal with Jiren and end his case:

https://pm1.narvii.com/6738/24b0e8ada05 ... 8v2_hq.jpg

Beerus believes Jiren would lose against Final Flash (Jiren is suppressed here though):



And it actually does make Jiren get serious and block with two hands. It also throws him down on the ground for a couple of seconds:









Toppo was worried, while he didn't show any such sign when Goku went to fight Jiren in Ultra Instinct on Episode 110:



Getting onto Episode 123. Goku and Vegeta are shocked that Jiren could walk right through Goku's traps as if it's something amazing, despite tanking attacks which are "supposed" to be better (implying Goku magically got stronger, though this is further supported down the road) (The reaction of Goku, and Vegeta's wonder is the surprise):





Goku fights Jiren while having his aura visible around him (never has Jiren done that before while fighting, and Jiren supposedly is ticked of due to what Goku did to him, which made him far more serious):





Jiren becomes more than just serious, and Vermouth comments that he senses a rise in Jiren and that he never has seen him that serious in a VERY LONG TIME:









This Jiren far surpasses anything Jiren has showed before, and Goku powers up, actually trading blows with that same Jiren:









Jiren got even more serious, by showing a hint of his power only, thus returning Goku to his base form.

Jiren's "hint" of his real power is the strongest thing Goku ever felt and witnessed:



Goku goes Kaioken x20 (It's stated he goes full power), and Beerus believes that Goku has a shot against this same Jiren:







Vegeta Also transforms, and both Vegeta and Goku attack Jiren together, and Jiren credits both of them to have become far stronger than before:



What I found interesting is that The Narrator states that BOTH Goku AND Vegeta are together in their limit-breaking forms, despite Goku only being in Kaioken x20, and the fact that Goku has already stated that he got the hang of Ultra Instinct (which originally is his limit breaking power, which has pushed Goku into ultimately new heights, yet Kaioken x20 {episode 123} transcends beyond that):



Apparently This case has shifted far beyond than whether current SsjB Goku or Vegeta surpassed Ultra Instinct Goku on Episode 110, into how much did they get stronger[/u]

On Episode 127, Jiren shows his true strength, which is implied to be above anything else that has been revealed:







Goku, Vegeta and Android 17 manage to fight Jiren (although they're on teams, if they're far too inferior, Team Work would be rendered invalid):



Vegeta even manages to push Jiren and keep up with him (Goku's SsjB alone is relative to Vegeta as Both Goku and Vegeta are going on equal perspectives against Jiren):











This basically settles the case[/spoiler]

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Boo asked Goku if the guy who was gonna fight him is strong, and Goku flat out ignored him and left. I'm sure Toriyama made a mistake there.

We have no way to know if Toriyama forgot or not so that leaves what you're sure of invalid. He might have forgotten, but because there's no proof of it, then we can't say he really forgot. This renders the "stronger than me" argument invalid whatsoever.

You know, i'm generally unwilling to call something a inconsistence, but considering this is the same arc everyone thinks Gohan is gone forever even though he never died...

Gohan being thought to have died isn't an inconsistency and was made purposedly. Everyone thought that Gohan died because they couldn't sense his Ki anywhere on earth or nearby, but that was to be made so that Gohan could power up and come back again to kill Buu. Kaioshin for some reason wanted everyone to think Gohan died which explains why he told Kibito to heal him after he sends him to the Kaioshin Realm.

Your "Goku was lying" argument also has no base other than you using one or two odd statements to say Goku was a liar and doomed everyone. Goku is one of the bluntest characters of the series. When something is going to have a bad outcome, he admits so.

My "Goku was lying" argument has many basis towards it. The fact that Goku was calming everybody due to the fact that they were worried makes it more evident. His statement was contradicted, and the rest of the "Gotenks will beat Fat buu" is a contradiction to what he revealed later, in which his Ki hasn't reached the Kaioshin realm, not once has it been stated he could beat Buu, and the atmosphere was worried sick. Moreover, Most of Goku's statements were based on the overestimated guess of Goten's and Trunks's powers which he then calls a gamble to leave them fight buu after sensing their powers. Goku originally thought Goten and Trunks would have 5 days of training, and at one point he changes his guesses, which makes Goku's point floating irrationally and illogically all over. Piccolo even tells Gotenks to train as much as possible to fight Buu, and that he needed every single minute. This absolutely defeats your point.

Except Goku said he was no match for him before revealing Super Saiyan 3.

That pretty much shows how he's also lying all over. He's been claiming he's inferior to fat Buu and that he needed to fuse, just due to his childish demeanour and twisted thoughts in a crisis like this threading the existence of the Universe. This same logic can be applied to Gotenks where Goku says he's going to be stronger despite showing many contradictions and twists, and flaming everybody and calling it a gamble to Piccolo. It wouldn't be a gamble if Gotenks was stronger than Goku considering Fat Buu was getting overpowered by Goku:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku manages to reach a new level of supersaiyano. This new transformation, fruit of his training in the Hereafter, has enough power to defeat Bu, although his appearance has worsened a bit.

Yet he calls It a gamble for Gotenks to fight fat Buu but he wants to leave it to the next generation because a dead guy won't be there to save them so they should depend on themselves. This implies that Goku thinks of his superiority to them but they need to be dependant on themselves. Piccolo yet still thinks Goku is weaker than Fat Buu based on what Goku told him, that guessing Buu's power is a lie. Piccolo agrees and when Gotenks appears he tells him to train as much as possible to beat Buu. This is more supported by how hid energy didn't reach the Kaioshin Realm and wasn't noted to be good at all. Piccolo wanted Gotenks to train and get ready as fast as possible to fight Fat Buu in the Anime even after Ssj Gotenks, and that's besides the point that Piccolo told Gotenks to train as much as possible, but that is not needed if he's superior to Fat Buu

After that he and Boo fought toe to toe and Piccolo even thought it was worth it asking if Goku was really unable to beat Boo.

Yet all in all Piccolo got the impression that Goku is weaker than Fat Buu, based on what Goku told him which is quite evident enough so your point gets defeated here. Piccolo was still worried sick when Goku told him that he told Buu Gotenks will be stronger than him (which is a lie) and wanted Gotenks to train as much as possible despite him supposedly being above Goku, which means piccolo has the impression that Goku is fodder to Buu either way. Even then, Gotenks Pre ROSAT is fodder and was never shown to be anywhere near mid-high tier Buu Saga characters

On the gamble thing, you do realize on the own scan you posted Goku says he's gonna take the gamble based on the boys' power, right?

He still took the gamble AFTER sensing their powers which were weaker than his expectations, but that doesn't mean they are fodder. It is a gamble based on the Ki he sensed from them, but he didn't say it's absolutely hopeless. Gotenks had the ROSAT, and originally Goku thought Gotenks have no time to become powerful enough to beat Buu in 5 days despite telling Piccolo that they will learn the technique fast, and that's when he was overestimating the kids.

Pre ROSAT Gotenks is nowhere near Goku. As for Post ROSAT, it's debatable

Even though the boys aren't as strong as he expected them to be, he recovers his confidence after testing the water with Boo. When did he suggest they need training? He flat out told Piccolo to don't send the boys to the Rosat because they might need for future threats, He doesn't change his mind about the boys not using the Rosat, and still tells Chi-Chi Goten will win if he fuses with Gotenks.

That's exactly why you're asking these questions when they were covered in my earlier reply which you bashed most of it and revolved around a single topic. Goku wanted the boys to learn the technique and have as much time as possible to train to prepare for Buu. That's evident by how Piccolo told Gotenks to train as much as possible before fighting Buu.

Goku, after fighting buu, comes back to train Goten and Trunks because that's the last hope left on earth, and he didn't say it was hopeless, but it was a gamble, so it is a slim to a deadly chance but he took it. This is shown by the fact that Goku told Buu a fighter will come to fight him.

Goku never told Piccolo to not get the boys into the ROSAT, except he told him it's unneeded, but Piccolo was referencing the time it takes to learn the technique since it took a week for Goku to learn. Goku's statement of the ROSAT is vague and could mean fat Buu and more to the future, and if Gotenks had no time they'd have him enter the ROSAT either way. Goku is telling Chi Chi not to worry as the atmosphere is centred around all that. Goku didn't say not to use the ROSAT, as Gotenks had time to train so he might become stronger and enough to fight buu. Piccolo believes Gotenks still needs training to fight buu, hence he tells him to train.

Also, the kids didn't master fusion on Rosat, they mastered it when they fused as Super Saiyans:

Time passed...The wizard Babidi awakened Majin Boo, who began killing all life on Earth. In order to defeat this mighty foe, Goten and Trunks at last perfected Fusion. However, just as Majin Boo befriended Satan and was about to give up killing, a terrible change occurred...!!

viewtopic.php?p=969068#p969564

You know this completely contradicts Piccolo's reaction when he saw Goten and Trunks merging perfectly:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

There's absolutely no reason to be shocked if they could do it perfectly from before, so this point breaks. That was before he sensed their increase in power, as he still was under the impression Gotenks hasn't improved much:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So not really.

On Rosat they only powered up further. And why you're even bringing up Super Boo? He's way stronger than Fat Boo.

There's absolutely no proof that Super Buu is astronomically above Fat Buu. All we're given in the show is that Super Buu has powered up a bit further due to his partial true character got unlocked. Almost All guides say nothing about super buu being stronger than Fat Buu or even far beyond him. El Manga Legendario notes that the major difference between fat buu and super buu is related to each one's dangerousness. Super Buu is far too dangerous in comparison to fat buu:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Daizenshuu States Buu powered up:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

That's it. It could also reference Good Buu when he split or Gray Buu, which are inferior to Fat Buu. The reason super buu would be stronger is because his true character plays more of a role on him:

What is the key to winning in battle?
In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki; could also translate as True Character]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

However, disregarding that, it would make Super Buu slightly above Fat Buu. Piccolo's statement about "everything about him is greater than before" is for precaution, as Everything being greater would also mean he's far more naive, childish and idiotic which is the opposite. Krillin, Piccolo and Dende clearly referenced directly the fact that Buu's energy changed in a way into a more pure evil form, and Z Fighters can tell apart Good and Evil Ki. Goten and Trunks were looking at Super Buu and were shocked of his appearance, then Piccolo told them that he changed and not only his appearance but everything is greater, which also includes evil heart, but holds barely anything about "power" because all he referenced before about power is having a good body better suited for battle, which is not proving anything as having a better body doesn't equate to more power. Sure we already know super buu did get stronger but nowhere near astronomical, and only a bit, to the point that the main focus was surrounding his evil heart and that's all. Saying super buu got far stronger would mean we're taking things so much out of context. Super Buu is more dangerous, just like Kid Buu being more dangerous than Buuhan, same case.

Yet Piccolo states that Gotenks after the ROSAT would need a miracle to win:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Super Buu is above Fat Buu, but he's still close in power.

As for Piccolo telling them to train, it was right after Gotenks returned from his fight with Boo, so he wasn't sure if the fusion could turn Super Saiyan yet.

That makes little to no sense at all. Piccolo knows Goten and Trunks can go Ssj and fuse afterwards but he still suggested they needed training. Either way, Gotenks was still weaker than Fat Buu and he was treated troll-wise, but I think that's out of the issue. Either way Pre ROSAT Gotenks is fodder, that's exactly how he's been shown, and nothing he showed is anywhere close to what he was proclaimed to be. His speed feat was a show off he intended to do to "surprise" Piccolo.

Also, Piccolo never even mentioned the Rosat, nor he send them there until Super Boo was born.

Piccolo wanted to have Gotenks train in the day he had left. Still, nothing shows Piccolo wasn't going to get him into the ROSAT, given Piccolo even said that he wanted them to train as much as possible in any way. In fact, the Anime showcases this better, where Piccolo is worried sick even after Gotenks goes Ssj before noticing Satan befriending Buu.

Don't wanna sound like a dick here (And sorry if i sound like one)

I think it's better if you are, because you'd be more blunt on the matter and it would make it easier to express your thoughts, so don't mind it

saying Piccolo wanted Gotenks to train on Rosat even before he saw SSJ Gotenks is the worst argument you pulled off by far, it's based on nothing but conjecture and it contradicts what the manga shows.

Lol you absolutely misunderstood me. That wasn't the argument at all, and actually what you just interpreted seems far too distant from what I meant. I didn't say he wanted Gotenks to specifically train him in the ROSAT, but it was there as a possibility if regular training wasn't enough, and nothing says he isn't going to get there. Piccolo wanted Gotenks to train in general, regardless where (the possibility was open. It was never ruled out, and in the Manga Goku specifies that Gotenks might need it later, not necessarily in the distant future). The Manga shows nothing about This topic and never disagreed with my point at all. So yeah, you misinterpreted me, and what you just said is invalid then

If anything this solidifes even more my argument about the Daizenshuu entry being flawed.

The Daizenshuu saying "Vegeta and the others" is trying to make a point, and I'm basically mentioning it by giving examples from the Series itself. At the very least, the entry quite clearly separates Vegeta and the "others", and is making it a point that Gotenks previously was inferior to Vegeta, and nothing says otherwise. No source states that Pre ROSAT Gotenks > Vegeta unless I'm messing it, but I haven't found anything in Dragon Ball Forever or Dragon Ball Densetsu. El Manga Legendario made it sound as if Gotenks surpassed Vegeta only Post ROSAT when he was Ssj or when he went Ssj3 and nothing more or less. Daizenshuu even mentions that Gotenks surpassed Vegeta in general while having Ssj3 Gotenks imprinted beside it.

Gohan was already out of the equation by the moment Gotenks was born, he already finished his Z Sword training and was stronger than Goku, who couldn't lift the sword as easily as Gohan. "Vegeta and the others" after Vegeta it's the kids. Gotenks being weaker than the kids pretty much beats the point of the fusion.

Gohan struggled to left it as Ssj/Ssj2 and needed so to even carry it and train on it. There's already an argument which is quite supported in which Base Goku Buu Saga > Ssj Gohan Pre Z Sword Training Buu Saga. Gotenks obviously is beyond Gohan Pre Z Sword Training Buu Saga, but not post, if he's stronger than Vegeta yet Pre ROSAT Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta.

I don't think the lack of reactions from Gotenks' Ki on the Other World means much. It could've happened off screen for all we know. And Goku does look confused by the fact that he can't sense Gotenks' Ki when Gotenks is on Rosat:

Goku here was trying to sense Gotenks's Ki. Goku can sense King Kai if he wants to:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Unlike Goku, Fat Buu, Super Buu, Ultimate Gohan and Kid Buu who their Ki made their way through such distances "accidentally" and made them sense it without the intention behind it.

Nothing implies Gotenks > Vegeta?

Yes. No feat and Direct statement even showed this, and based on guides Vegeta > Gotenks. Nuff said

Even Base Gotenks was treated as a much bigger deal than Vegeta, let alone Super Saiyan Gotenks who's stated several times to be stronger than Fat Boo.

Gotenks in base form and Ssj form was never treated to be superior as in fact he was dealt with in a troll manner. Those statements are already clarified before by me earlier on

Of course it does. Piccolo saying Goku's power is beyond what he can imagine doesn't mean Goku is so strong he can't sense properly, only that Goku's power is stronger than anything Piccolo could imagine. That said, my point still stands.

When a power is too great for you to fathom, you wouldn't be able to ordinarily scalr that power. An example is when King Kai sensed Namek Saga Goku, he states that he senses no limit from him. While that doesn't have to be taken literally, this does show that it's too great in comparison to king kai. Similar to what's been shown in DBS ToP arc. Piccolo's power saying Goku's Power Is beyond his imagination means he couldn't properly scale It, otherwise he wouldn't have to ask. So your point doesn't stand really

Piccolo says they're on a "Ordinary, everyday level" what clearly is about holding back power.

Regular Super Saiyan Transformations are strainful on the body, so they cannot stay for long in that transformation. Mastered Super Saiyan makes you capable of staying in that form as if it is your base form:

[spoiler]Daizenshuu 10:



Super Saiya-jin
Super Saiya-jin’s biggest distinguishing characteristics are the golden hair that stands up straight, and the green pupils. Also, because they are in a continuous lightly agitated state, their personality also becomes wild. This type is the first grade of Super Saiya-jin, and can be called the base for all Super Saiya-jins.

While Mastered Super Saiyan is this:

Variations
Grades 2-3 are powered up versions of the Grade 1, which Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks have the ability to transform into. Full Power time is a type where they are able to unconsciously exist in the Super Saiya-jin state, and even the wildness of their personality vanishes. Only Goku and Gohan can transform into this.

It says nothing about Holding back power. It's only about existing in it as if you aren't even transformed and your maiciousness disappears.

A good catch on what Ssj does:

Dragon Ball Super:

[spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]

So it isn't about Holding back. The "ordinary level" means as if it is their base forms. Their everyday ordinary level is base forms, and Ssj makes you strained if stayed too long and has a wild personality flowing through the Character. MSsj simply removes the strain. [/spoiler]

This breaks your point completely.

What Vegeta says doesn't contradict Piccolo's statement at all, it only complements Piccolo's statement about the benefits of mastering the transformations.

The benefits of mastering Ssj removes the strain from one's own Body, accesses all the power of a Ssj so it increases one's power more than a regular Super Saiyan, and the wild personality flowing within you vanishes completely. Nothing says it has anything to do with holding back, as that would beat the point of removing the strain and wild personality of a character. That's a speculative point you made here

And based on Piccolo being surprised at Goku and Gohan's ability to suppression, it's clear the examples you cited aren't about holding back power, but effort.

Piccolo was surprised that both Goku and Gohan are talking and enjoying their time while still be Super Saiyans which is a strainful form that requires the burning of Ki continuously. The scans I cited shows characters as Ssj not being at full power and were holding back. Nothing suggests it's about effort

On the original dialogue Goku says Trunks "Wasn't serious, after all", what can refer to efforts as well.

Serious could also refer to holding back as Well, so you're simply cherrypicking now. Unlike your point, my point can be much more supported. When Goku goes Ssj, Yamcha concludes that it's an amazing Ki, and that's without even fighting yet which means Goku can make it go even HIGHER. This is a proof of suppression:

Chapter: 334 (DBZ 140), P7.3
Context: seeing Super Saiyan Goku
Yamcha: “Wh…what ki…and he’s not even fighting…”

Goku's power could go even HIGHER than that.

Goku could control how much energy he uses as a Super Saiyan:

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”

1) Implies Goku could have used less than full power; proof of suppression

2) Mentioning full power is unneeded if it was about effort. They would have said something along the meaning of "he's already putting as much effort as possible".

Freeza never hurted Goku, he just pushed him away with a Kiai

Frieza quite clearly injured him, and hurt him based on the aftermath. But Frieza Goku's full power and as soon as Goku powers up, Frieza fails to even push Goku a bit despite Frieza pushing him prior to that without using his full power.

Goku saying he could've killed Boo doesn't mean he was suppressed when he said he couldn't, just that their power are close enough to a point Goku can at lest hide his chances of winning.

No, this also means that Goku could beat him if he went full power or close to That, which means he was holding back. The entire idea of "holding back" is far more supported than your idea of "effort" and The case about Mastered Super Saiyan has zero relevance to this issue. Goku being able to beat Fat Buu if he wanted, while Originally it was thought that he couldn't. If their powers were really close then Goku can't be certain because Buu' versatility and unpredictability in techniques and all exceed Goku by far, which puts Goku at a disadvantage unless Goku is far beyond him

I mean, he also said he could beat Pure Boo, but it was because he could create a Kamehameha strong enough to obliterate him. The same applies to Fatso here.

The "Full power" point was absolutely different. Goku needs at least 1 minute to charge his full power and no one was there to help Goku against Fat Buu, but he says he could beat him. The "Charging up to full power" is similar to Piccolo using the Makankosappo which pushes his power up to his limits. Goku is weaker than Kid Buu:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Kid Buu wasn't even serious against Goku the whole time. Goku even underestimated Kid Buu, he thought the spirit bomb without his own power could beat Buu but was wrong.

I completely agree. Everyone and their mother imply Gotenks > Goku, while nothing implies Goku > Gotenks at all.

More like Gotenks is wanked. No one implies Pre ROSAT Gotenks > Goku but the opposite, while it is debatable if it is Post ROSAT Gotenks

Super Buu is surprised of Goku and thinks he's an amazing character while disregards Base Gotenks and Ssj Gotenks Post ROSAT. Only Ssj3 Gotenks is arguable:

[spoiler]


This places Goku beyond Ssj3 Gotenks who was credited far less than Goku. He believes Goku is more entertaining[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quite the difference[/spoiler]

In conclusion: Gotenks is wanked

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Super Saiyan Anger Future Trunks (E63) vs Super Saiyan Blue Enraged Goku (E61).

Who wins? Goku's anger boost is permanent.

Future Trunks stomps

New battles

1. Limit Breaker Vegeta vs Ssjblue Vegito (black arc, Vegito's fusion lasts until he or vegeta is defeated)?

2. Hit vs Kefla (to the death)?

3. Destruction Toppo vs M. Zamasu (no immortality)?

4. Gogeta ssj4 vs ssjgod Goku (bog, fusion lasts until either are defeated)?

5. Goku (GT, Adult goku) vs Goku (ToP)? (Equal strength, no transformations. Who is the better goku? The older and more experience goku? Or the younger, Whis trained goku?)

1) Vegeta stomps

2) Kefla stomps

3) This is overkill; Toppo slaps

4) This is quote debatable and could be close, but I'll give it to SsjG due to his increase and feats

5) GT Goku. His experience outclasses ToP Goku

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Yamcha (EoZ) vs Captain Ginyu (Z)

He gets stomped. Android Saga Yamcha stomps though

ChiChi vs Tambourine

Tambourine solos. Chi Chi hasn't shown anything close to what Tambourine showed

Hit (current) vs Android 17 (current)

Current 17 Casually stomps

Android 18 (love boosted) vs Monna

Android 18 stomps

Kid Trunks and Goten vs 1 Cell jr.

Post ROSAT they take It, Pre ROSAT they lose

[dragonball0900]

Yamcha (EoZ) vs Captain Ginyu (Z)
ChiChi vs Tambourine
Hit (current) vs Android 17 (current)
Android 18 (love boosted) vs Monna
Kid Trunks and Goten vs 1 Cell jr.

1. Captain Ginyu wins. Even Android arc Yamcha would lose if he doesn't use his best techniques.

2. Tambourine wins. Not only he can fly, but he was also able to kill Krillin easily and be considered as one of King Piccolo's stongest minions. I do believe Chi Chi can defeat that Krillin, but as far as my levels go she's only stronger than Master Tsuru and weaker than Master Roshi at best.

3. I'm not going to answer this one. I just hate the power up they gave to Android 17. I hate it very much... Hope the same doesn't happen in the manga...

4. I don't know.

5. If it's Pre ROSAT, they lose badly. If it's Post ROSAT, they might have a chance to win if they work together. But their childish attitude in battle would make them being outclassed.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yamcha (EoZ) vs Captain Ginyu (Z)

Yamcha stomps. At his peak he was considered good energy for #20, and i don't think he got that ridiculously weaker, if he got weaker at all.

ChiChi vs Tambourine

Only the fact Chi-Chi has more relevance than Chaozu and Yajirobe at the Budokai makes me think she is above them, and the duo could already one shot Tambourine.

Kid Trunks and Goten vs 1 Cell jr.

Unless a Cell Jr can fight evenly with Gohan like Goten did, Super Saiyan Goten solos. Whenever it's Pre or Post it's irrelevant as i don't think they improved much individually.

[dragon boss z]

There is no way I'm responding to all that nonsense. You clearly are not in a proper state of mind to debate. You are completely entrenched in the idea that your opinion is fact and will not even consider your opinion could be wrong. That type of person is impossible to debate with.

And no, you won't accept my challenge because you are afraid to lose. There are plenty of people who consider Goku universal on Comic vine. And with a CaV people aren't supposed to vote for who they think is right, they are supposed to vote for who they think debated better.

If it is in a CaV where other people can judge us I will happily reply to all of your arguments, but when it's just you stroking your own ego on how you think you are a top tier debater, I'm not going to keep replying to someone like that.

[Kaboom]

Okay, before I make my on-topic post, as a moderator I want to declare a few things.

1) This thread is not the place to have extended, super-wordy, back-and-forth debates. Its purpose is to propose interesting "versus" topics and get folks' opinions on them in as simple and fact-based a way as possible. If something seems like it's worthy of a bigger conversation, then make a new thread. It's easier on everyone who may want to participate in either topic, and it's easier for us on the staff to keep track of things. Cuz this... this here is a mess.

2) DB▪Magnum-Expert, I already pointed this out in the Super Strengths Discussion thread where I quoted you, but looking back on your posts in this thread, it's worth mentioning again. You really need to kick this habit of having your already-long posts be stuffed with large, space-dominating images. We don't specifically have a rule against it, but there's a point where it starts to get disruptive, and you've definitely waded into those waters.

There's obviously nothing wrong with wanting to back up whatever you're saying, but learn some brevity. Keep it simple and succinct, and if someone doesn't believe you, THEN post some images, preferably just as links or within spoiler tags. Oh, and because of the usual copyright and piracy concerns, please avoid posting entire pages of the manga, in either Japanese or English. Crop things down to one or two specific panels if at all possible.

Oh, and while I (hopefully) have your attention, maybe try to cool it with the whole "why aren't you agreeing with what I've decided is irrefutable fact" routine. I've noticed a bit too much of it from you while I've been cruising through these recent pages.


Alrighty, we all good? Okay then. Time for an catch-up post from the last 10 pages or so. If anyone quotes me, make sure to edit out the spoiler tags so the page doesn't get all warped and messed up.

Spoiler:

Equal power, limited stamina

- 100% Mutenroshi vs. Super Gotenks
- Nuova Shenron vs. Krillin
- Recoome vs. Android 17 (Cell arc)

- I'm gonna say Muten Roshi. He's a much more skilled fighter all around, and I'm positive even in his bulked-up state he can outlast the 5 minutes Gotenks will have before de-fusing.
- Equal power levels or not, Si Xing Long has more going for him. Especially those insane heat powers. Equalized powers won't do Kuririn much good if he can't
even get close to his foe.
- Hard to tell... 17 has his unlimited stamina, but Recoome has superior physical traits, in particular being a massive tank. Could go either way, but I'll still give the odds slightly to 17.

- Future SSJ Gohan vs. Android 20
- Spopovich vs. 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Chichi
- Piccolo (Boo arc) vs. Base Gotenks

- Gohan's got a sizable power advantage, but he could lose it very quickly if he lets Gero absorb energy from him. As long as he avoids too much of that, he's got it in the bag.
- Hard to tell, we don't know for sure how strong Spopovich was. He had some advanced ki techniques, but Videl was still able to beat him up to a certain extent. If nothing else, it'll be his freakish zombie durability that gives Chi-Chi trouble.
- Regular base Gotenks is only anything special compared to the other, non-Fusion base Saiyans. In my book he ended up with a PL of a few hundred million, on the Android twins' level. Whereas by this point I'm pretty sure Piccolo could tango with Perfect Cell's lower range of power. The big green machine wins.

Beginning of Z Goku vs The top 8 of 23rd Tenkaiichi
Namek saga Krillin (when he fought Freeza) vs Ginyu
Super Perfect Cell (KKx10) vs SSJ3 Goku (Buu Saga)
SSJG Goku (BoG arc) vs SSJ4 Gogeta (GT)
Super 17 (GT) vs Frost (ToP arc)

- Well, the top two of the 23rd tournament were himself and Piccolo, and the rest were pretty far behind them. So as long as Goku makes it out of those top two fights relatively unscathed, which he should probably be able to do now, then he won't have much trouble with the next 6.
- The top power we're given for Kuririn against Freeza was 75,000. If that's at the start, then it's possible his power was still growing, but I wouldn't think it got too much higher. Maybe he'd hit the 100,000 mark, which against Ginyu's 120,000 means his odds are only "okay." He can win if he focuses on speed and agility, which are Ginyu's weak points.
- SS2 Goku was only moderately stronger than SS2 Gohan was, and so he's not much stronger than SP Cell, either. After that, the 4x boost that Goku gets from SS3 is far inferior to the 10x boost Cell gets from the Kaio-Ken. A few quick bursting blows is all Cell needs to win this.
- Comparing GT and Super's powers even to Z's, much less each other's, is a big invitation for a headache. But I'm willing to bet that Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta is only outmatched by, if anyone, the higher-ranking Gods of Destruction, and the even stronger folks like the Angels and Grand Priest. I'm sure he takes this fight against Godku by a landslide.
- Yeah, this one though... Purely by my gut, I'd say Super 17, and easily. I was actually still watching Super during the U6 Tournament, and I saw nothing from Frost that should put him anywhere close to a Super Saiyan 4 level of power like Super 17 was.

- 21st Tenkaichi Budokai Oozaru Goku vs. One Saibamen (two if too easy)
- Mutenroshi vs. 18 (equal power)
- Chaozu vs. Base Broly (equal power)

- Even if Oozaru Goku doesn't quite measure up in raw power levels (if he's pushing 100 by the 21st WT, then he'd be almost 1,000 as an Oozaru), because of his sheer size and destructive capacity, I still can't picture just one or two Saibaiman being able to do anything to actually hurt him significantly. But a whole swarm of them, doing something drastic like jumping all over him and self-destructing simultaneously? That'd be a different story.
- Definitely Eighteen. She may not be as skilled of a fighter, but her infinite stamina is going to be even more helpful than usual against an older guy like Muten Roshi.
- Broli is really just a brute, while Chaozu actually has some good training and special abilities. For once, Tenshinhan's sidekick actually wins a fight all by himself.

- SSJ Gotenks (Buu arc) vs SSJ3 Goku (beginning of BoG)
- Piccolo (U6 arc) vs Buuhan

- My rather conservative view on Gotenks' power leaves his Super Saiyan form "only" about half as strong as SS3 Goku. So an even stronger SS3 Goku from about 5 years later has this fight in the bag.
- Yeeaaah... the Saiyans who are now wielding god-power is one thing, but there's no way I can see Piccolo being on this level yet. Or ever, really.

Cell Games Yamcha, Tien and Krillin vs. Cooler Armored Squadron

The Earthlings would still be too outclassed in power, here. Kuririn is the only one I consider over the 100,000 mark by this point, while Tenshinhan is probably only about half that and Yamcha's even farther behind. Meanwhile, the Coola Armored Squad are officially all up between 150,000 and 200,000. If all three of the Earthlings were up on Kuririn's level then they could probably manage something, but as it stands their chances are inconsequentially low.

Mr. Satan vs General Blue

I'm not sure if Mr. Satan measures up to Blue strength-wise... but even if he does, I doubt he has any way to deal with Blue's paralysis technique.

Android arc Yamcha & Puar vs. Oozaru Tullece
SSJ2 Goku (shortly after have unlocked the form) vs. SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan
Base Vegeta vs. Tapion

- The only official power level we have for Tullece is 19,000 (though I'd say he should be at least a little stronger than that). That makes him almost 200,000 as an Oozaru, and that's far stronger than I think Yamcha ever got. Why is Puar even included...?
- We don't know how strong Goku was when he first gained SS2. No good way to answer.
- Likewise, we don't know how strong Tapion himself is supposed to be. Goku made an "amazing ki" comment when Tapion was released, but that could very well have been Hirudegarn he was sensing, not Tapion. I placed him at 50,000 which Vegeta (from the Boo arc and/or Movie 13) could easily beat, but that's really arbitrary.

Full Power Super Saiyan Goku (Majin Buu Saga) vs. Perfect Cell (Cell Games Saga).

Well, Cell has multiple levels of power he used. I think Goku at this point is just still slightly below "full power" Cell, and probably couldn't beat him at that level yet. Anything below it, like the powers Cell used to fight Vegeta and Trunks, or Goku in their match, and Goku wins easily. Of course on the flipside "Super Perfect" Cell is still a no-go unless Goku uses SS2.

Vegito from the Buu Saga (can go Ssj3, no strain, no time limit) runs the following GT Guantlet
Who does he beat, and who does he lose to?

The only official word we have on "Vegetto vs GT" implies that Super Vegetto is comparable to Baby-arc SS4 Goku. I'm okay with that, assuming certain allowances. So then Super Vegetto beats anyone weaker than SS4 Goku, and loses to anyone stronger. I'm not sure how he'd compare to those in the latter category with SS2 and SS3, but Super Yi Xing Long is the only one I can see him definitely losing to unless he gets SS4 somehow.

(Namek) Freeza (can transform) vs. Slug (can transform)
(Namek) Final Form Freeza vs. Final Form Cooler
Mecha Freeza 100% full power vs. (Namek) SSJ Goku
(Yardrat) 20x Kaioken Goku vs. Android #20

- Slug was said to possibly be stronger than Freeza, I think... but at the point his movie was written and where it coincides with the series, that would most likely only refer to 1st-form Freeza. So I have Slug maxing out around as strong as Freeza's 2nd form, meaning Freeza can beat him in his 3rd form or higher.
- Goku actually says in Movie 5 that transformed Coola (assuming that's what you mean by his "Final Form") is even stronger than Freeza, and Coola doesn't appear to share 100% Freeza's stamina problems to boot. After humoring him for a bit, Coola rubs his little brother's face in the dirt and makes him eat bugs.
- Freeza is probably up on Goku's level now, but Goku's still the better fighter (and not held back by injuries this time, presumably), and if anything Freeza's cyborgification would hold him back in some ways. Goku wins, but it's definitely a tougher fight than he had on Namek.
- The KKx20 doesn't quite let Goku measure up to Android 20's baseline power (76 vs 90, in my book). Goku's chances aren't good, especially if Gero manages to get hold of him and sap any power.

Adult (GT) SSJ3 Goku (can use Dragon Fist) vs. Baby-Vegeta (cannot transform)

The Dragon Fist is a pretty darn haxed attack. Assuming he lands it, I'm sure it lets Goku win here. Being an adult won't change anything, since I'm pretty sure his child reversion was only said to affect his stamina, not his power.

SSJ2 KKx20 Goku vs Fat Buu
Semi-Perfect Cell SSJ Vegeta & SSJ Trunks(Post-ROSAT)
17 & 18 vs SSJKKx20 Goku(Trunks Arc)
Adult SSJ3 Goku vs Baby Vegeta 2

- Super Saiyan 3, which is "only" a 4x boost over SS2, was already more than enough to let Goku beat Fat Boo. A whopping 20x boost instead is overkill.
- Full-power Cell might beat either of these two individually, but they can definitely take him 2-verus-1.
- Same deal with the Goku vs Fat Boo match above. Just giving Goku a 2x boost through Super Saiyan 2 here would already put him on the Androids' level. A whole 20x boost is overkill.
- Goku's reversion to a child body was only said to affect his stamina, not his power. So this fight doesn't really go any differently.

1. Piccolo (Post King Kai, Pre Nail Fusion) vs Recoome, Burter and Jeice
2. SSJ Gotenks (post ROSAT) vs SSJ3 Goku (Full Power)
3. SSJ Gogeta vs SSJ3 Gotenks

1. Hard to tell, since we don't know exactly how strong Piccolo was when he first got to Namek. He seemed confident to fight someone "stronger than Vegeta," but he never really got to feel Vegeta's full power back on Earth, so all he reallyknows is "waaaay stronger than Nappa." But just going by my gut, I think he could possibly take on any of these three Ginyu guys one-on-one, but definitely not all of them at once.
2. As mentioned with the same match above, I think SS1 Gotenks maxed out around half as strong as SS3 Goku, whose power drain won't kick in nearly soon enough to prevent Gotenks from getting his butt kicked.
3. Definitely Gogeta. Janemba is up there with Evil Boo and his absorbed forms, in the "requires a Goku/Vegeta Fusion to beat" range. Super Gogeta was roughly as strong as Gohan-Boo in my book, and that's obviously much stronger than any form of Gotenks.

Super 17 vs Super Janemba

If Super 17 already started out able to beat up the likes of Super Oob, then I'm pretty sure he's way up there around or beyond Super Boo's absorption forms, and I consider Janemba only one step below that. Super 17 wins before too long.

SSJ4 Vegeta vs Super 17 (peak)
East Supreme Kai vs Perfect Cell
Great ape Vegeta (Saiyan saga) vs Ginyu force

- I dunno how strong Vegeta's supposed to be compared to Goku from the previous arc... but it depends more on if he's strong enough to figure out and counteract Super 17's absorption shenanigans.
- Kaioshin should be around the same level as SS Goku in the Cell Games, so just compare that to Cell. He beats the Cell who fought Vegeta and Trunks, puts up a good fight but probably loses to the Cell who fought Goku, and definitely loses to the stronger Cell who fought Gohan.
- Vegeta's got the edge in raw strength over all of them, maxing at 180k compared to Captain Ginyu's 120k. But they have way too many different tricks up their collective sleeves, AND they should be well aware of Saiyans' tail weakness. Despite his power level advantage, Vegeta is outmatched in the end.

-Goku Kaioken X10 (Namek Saga, pre-healing chamber) vs 2nd Form Frieza.
-Final Form Janemba vs SSJ Gotenks (Pre-ROSAT).
-Kid Buu vs SSJ Gotenks (Pre-ROSAT).

- I'll assume by "pre-healing chamber" you don't mean battered and immobile after the fight with Ginyu. So, 90,000 x10 puts him at a little under a million, whereas 2nd-form Freeza is somewhat "over one million" by his own word. Goku almost definitely isn't winning this, being still weaker than Freeza and limited to quick, self-harming bursts.
- Janemba is way up there in the same tier as Evil Boo's absorption forms. Gotenks gets slaughtered, and needs SS3 to even put up a half-decent fight.
- As previously mentioned, SS Gotenks caps out about half as strong as SS3 Goku, and thus only about half as strong as Pure Boo, too. Even if Gotenks were stronger, he's not nearly as good a fighter as Goku, and would have a really hard time counteracting Boo's wild nature and (even more) insane regeneration.

Perfect Cell vs SSJ Trunks Grade 3 (No speed loss)

The only version of Cell this Trunks could beat was the one he actually fought. Without Grade 3's speed loss, his strength advantage now actually means something. But he's still too weak to match with any stronger version of Cell at the Cell Games.

SSJ3 goku (yargrat) vs android saga 17
Dodoria vs KKx3 Goku (saiyan arc)
Guldo vs Nappa and 5 saibamen
Tien (Buu saga) vs Mecha Frieza
Krillin (late Namek arc) vs Recoome

- Just a 2x boost from SS2 would already put Goku on the Androids' level. A massive 8x boost from SS3 instead lets him make short work of them.
- The KKx3 only lets Goku surpassed Dodoria's 22,000 power level by a tiny bit. He's going to get a few good hits in, but not be able to do enough damage in those short bursts before he wrecks himself. The attempt leaves him worn out and easy prey for a now pissed-off Dodoria.
- Gurd was really only losing against Gohan and Kuririn, even with his special powers, because they were so much stronger and faster than him. That's probably not the case against Nappa, and definitely not the case against the Saibaimen.
- Tenshinhan has no chance. He's not even 1/1000th as strong as Freeza, and even the Shin Kikoho will only push Freeza around a bit and tick him off.
- If by "late Namek" you mean the Freeza fight, then Kuririn's got this in the bag. His PL of 75,000+ makes short work of Recoome, who's probably around 40,000.

Yamcha (EoZ) vs Captain Ginyu (Z)
ChiChi vs Tambourine
Kid Trunks and Goten vs 1 Cell jr.

- Poor Yamcha would be lucky if he ever broke the 50,000 mark. No match for Ginyu.
- Hard to tell, maybe Chi-Chi could take this, but if so I'm sure it'd be a tough fight.
- The Cell Juniors are slightly stronger than either of the kids alone, but working together they can take one out.

[jeffbr92]

The only official power level we have for Tullece is 19,000 (though I'd say he should be at least a little stronger than that). That makes him almost 200,000 as an Oozaru, and that's far stronger than I think Yamcha ever got. Why is Puar even included...?

Puar could transform in a scissors to cut Tullece's tail.

Goku actually says in Movie 5 that transformed Coola (assuming that's what you mean by his "Final Form") is even stronger than Freeza, and Coola doesn't appear to share 100% Freeza's stamina problems to boot. After humoring him for a bit, Coola rubs his little brother's face in the dirt and makes him eat bugs.

By Final Form I meant his initial form, not his Fifth Form.

[Puaru]

ToP Gohan VS ToP 17's Little finger. Not all of 17, just his little finger.

My money is on 17's little finger because 17 got to prove his power over and over again while Gohan never did anything impressive throughout the entire ToP.

Gohan is just terrible.

[Freeza9000]

ToP Gohan VS ToP 17's Little finger. Not all of 17, just his little finger.

My money is on 17's little finger because 17 got to prove his power over and over again while Gohan never did anything impressive throughout the entire ToP.

Gohan is just terrible.

Sure, pressuring a being in combat that nearly put an internationally feared assassin of his universe on his wits end isn't impressive at all. I'm not even Gohan's most enthusiastic fanboy on God's green land, but the very notion of the ToP arc reducing Gohan to Princess Peach levels of damsel in distress is just ridiculous.

[Helios518]

New battles

1. Limit Breaker Vegeta vs Ssjblue Vegito (black arc, Vegito's fusion lasts until he or vegeta is defeated)?

2. Hit vs Kefla (to the death)?

3. Destruction Toppo vs M. Zamasu (no immortality)?

4. Gogeta ssj4 vs ssjgod Goku (bog, fusion lasts until either are defeated)?

5. Goku (GT, Adult goku) vs Goku (ToP)? (Equal strength, no transformations. Who is the better goku? The older and more experience goku? Or the younger, Whis trained goku?)

1. I seriously doubt SSJBE Vegeta or SSJBKKx20 is even close to SSJB Vegetto, despite me putting the former's normal SSJB form around normal Merged Zamasu. Vegetto stomps 10/10.

2. I put LSSJ2 Kafla just above current full-power SSJBKK Goku, so Hit will have a run for his money but considering HIt to Geran than consistently SSJB did, and even stopped Geran for a moment. I'll say Hit defeats Kafla 8/10 because she doesn't know how to counter time-skip nor his shock wave punches.

3. Assuming normal M.Zamasu, GoD Toppo stomps as easy as he did Golden Freeza, if not even worse because killing is allowed; 10/10 win for Toppo. Otherwise, GoD Toppo loses unless he can last long enough for Corrupt Zamasu to weaken; Corrupt Zamasu 8/10.

4. DBS SSJG shown way better feats and statements than the entirety of GT. SSJG wins 10/10.

5. Not even the decade of training and different experience that GT Goku has could match the training given by Whis. So I'll say ToP Goku wins but it's impossible to say how much.

[TheUltimateNinja]

ToP Gohan VS ToP 17's Little finger. Not all of 17, just his little finger.

My money is on 17's little finger because 17 got to prove his power over and over again while Gohan never did anything impressive throughout the entire ToP.

Gohan is just terrible.

Sure, pressuring a being in combat that nearly put an internationally feared assassin of his universe on his wits end isn't impressive at all. I'm not even Gohan's most enthusiastic fanboy on God's green land, but the very notion of the ToP arc reducing Gohan to Princess Peach levels of damsel in distress is just ridiculous.

Dyspo was nothing to Hit, he would have beaten him easily if it wasn't for Kunshi whereas Gohan would have been completely helpless without Freeza.

[Helios518]

ToP Gohan VS ToP 17's Little finger. Not all of 17, just his little finger.

My money is on 17's little finger because 17 got to prove his power over and over again while Gohan never did anything impressive throughout the entire ToP.

Gohan is just terrible.

Sure, pressuring a being in combat that nearly put an internationally feared assassin of his universe on his wits end isn't impressive at all. I'm not even Gohan's most enthusiastic fanboy on God's green land, but the very notion of the ToP arc reducing Gohan to Princess Peach levels of damsel in distress is just ridiculous.

Dyspo was nothing to Hit, he would have beaten him easily if it wasn't for Kunshi whereas Gohan would have been completely helpless without Freeza.

Not to go against you but, Gohan did fight an even better Dyspo than Hit did.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Sure, pressuring a being in combat that nearly put an internationally feared assassin of his universe on his wits end isn't impressive at all. I'm not even Gohan's most enthusiastic fanboy on God's green land, but the very notion of the ToP arc reducing Gohan to Princess Peach levels of damsel in distress is just ridiculous.

Dyspo was nothing to Hit, he would have beaten him easily if it wasn't for Kunshi whereas Gohan would have been completely helpless without Freeza.

Not to go against you but, Gohan did fight an even better Dyspo than Hit did.

All Dyspo did was increase his speed.

[Helios518]

Dyspo was nothing to Hit, he would have beaten him easily if it wasn't for Kunshi whereas Gohan would have been completely helpless without Freeza.

Not to go against you but, Gohan did fight an even better Dyspo than Hit did.

All Dyspo did was increase his speed.

Increasing your speed allows you to hit harder, as well. The only thing it doesn't do is increase durability but that doesn't matter, if you can't get hit to begin with. That being said, even if Hit knows Dyspo's move, he still has to avoid getting blitzed by SEHSM Dyspo.

[Freeza9000]

Dyspo was nothing to Hit, he would have beaten him easily if it wasn't for Kunshi whereas Gohan would have been completely helpless without Freeza.

Just as how Freeza would’ve been in the face of helplessness had it not for Gohan making his entry.

[jeffbr92]

- Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta vs. Kaioken x10 + Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black

[dragon boss z]

ToP Gohan VS ToP 17's Little finger. Not all of 17, just his little finger.

My money is on 17's little finger because 17 got to prove his power over and over again while Gohan never did anything impressive throughout the entire ToP.

Gohan is just terrible.

Sure, pressuring a being in combat that nearly put an internationally feared assassin of his universe on his wits end isn't impressive at all. I'm not even Gohan's most enthusiastic fanboy on God's green land, but the very notion of the ToP arc reducing Gohan to Princess Peach levels of damsel in distress is just ridiculous.

Dyspo was nothing to Hit, he would have beaten him easily if it wasn't for Kunshi whereas Gohan would have been completely helpless without Freeza.

Dyspo was nothing to Hit, he would have beaten him easily if it wasn't for Kunshi whereas Gohan would have been completely helpless without Freeza.

Just as how Freeza would’ve been in the face of helplessness had it not for Gohan making his entry.

The Dypso fighting Frieza and Gohan was much faster/more dangerous than the one who fought Hit. Without his final technique Dyspo was absolute no match for Frieza and Frieza was actually faster than him.

[Helios518]

- Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta vs. Kaioken x10 + Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black

This goes like how it did in the anime but more two sided because the gap between them may be bigger; Vegeta stomps Black -> Black gets stronger —> Black wins because he’s stronger than Vegeta or Vegeta wins because Black can’t close the gap in time. Vegeta wins 6/10.