Pre-Z Battle Powers, part one

[Herms]

(This is the first of the topics about various persistent bits of discussion and/or controversy that I’m including in my absurdly vast strength debate project. I’ve decided to have a separate thread for each of these, to make linking easier if nothing else.)

Strengtha-palooza
Prog 1.2: Pre-Z Battle Powers, part one

So…after 194 chapters worth of characters getting “many times stronger”, being “in a league of their own” or “beyond compare”, and having ki attacks bounce off them when they're not even using half their full power, finally Raditz turns up with his bloody scouter and starts measuring everything. Thanks to the wonders of technology, in short order it’s established that in terms of battle power an ordinary Earth farmer ranks in at 5, Kame “I blew up the moon” Sennin nets a respectable 139, and adult Goku is 416 (but his BP shoots up to around 924 when he fires the Kamehameha). Following on from this, throughout the Saiyan and Freeza arcs we keep getting updates on how high so-and-so’s BP is, until Trunks finally steps in and puts a stop to the dirty business once and for all.

The obvious question then: if Goku’s at 416 by the start of the “Z” era, how did he and the rest of the cast measure up during the story arcs before that? The first source to delve into this was Weekly Jump issue #31 for 1989, the same issue that ran DB chapter 231, featuring Goku and Vegeta’s famous beam struggle. The front of the issue had a special section which, among other things, included a page listing the battle powers for various DB characters, even a few from before the Saiyan arc. It pegged Goku as 180 during the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, and powering up to 260 for his showdown with Piccolo Daimao. But it neglected to assign any numbers for Goku prior to the 22nd tournament; in fact, apart from Karin it didn’t really deal with anything pre-22nd TB at all.

It wasn’t until the release of Daizenshuu 7 in 1996 that official battle powers were handed out for the very start of the series. Well, a few anyway. Very few. Actually, just Goku. Daizenshuu 7 pegs Goku at the start of the series as a nice round 10, which blows up to 100 when he turns into an Oozaru. Since I’m focusing on the early part of the series right now, and I’m feeling particularly lazy, I’m just going to analyze these two numbers and save the rest for some other occasion.

OK then, 10 and 100. Why 10? Well, as I said, it’s obviously a nice round number. More to the point, Daizenshuu 7 notes that Goku has “twice the power of an ordinary person”, a clear reference to Farmer with a Shotgun and his BP of 5. 100 is then simply 10x10, an application of Vegeta’s statement in the Saiyan arc that a Saiyan’s battle power increases tenfold when they become an Oozaru. In fact, outside of video games this is the only official battle power to apply Vegeta’s “Oozaru=x10” rule (and most games tend to not follow it, for one reason or another).

But like just about every official battle power from outside the manga, this is not without controversy. The main objection people have is that a BP of 10 doesn’t leave enough room between Goku and the average man. Goku is after all a pretty tough customer right out of the gate: he shrugs off bullets and axe blows to the head, hunts tigers for breakfast, thinks nothing of taking on armed men, crushes boulders with his bare hands, and is an Olympic-level sprinter. Is just doubling your BP really enough to make that huge of a difference?

The most basic counterargument to this is that a difference of x2 is shown several times to make a pretty darn big difference when it comes to BP. On Namek Vegeta’s at about 30,000 when he fights Recoom, who kicks the crap out of him. Then Goku shows up, takes Recoom out in one blow, and then easily defeats the equally-powerful Burta and Jheese…at the same time. When he hears about this, Ginyu estimates that Goku’s BP is “probably” about 60,000. But Ginyu isn’t too concerned for himself, since his BP is 120,000…but then Goku reveals (a little more of) his true power, and his BP shoots up to 180,000. Ginyu declares that Goku is “overwhelmingly” stronger than him, and gives up all hope of beating Goku in a one-on-one fight.

So all this seems to establish that x2 is a big deal when it comes to battle power. Ginyu even gives up when faced with a difference of just x1.5 (but he did have his Body Change technique up his sleeve, so he obviously had no real incentive to bother trying to fight Goku). Outside the manga, the SEG: Character Volume tells us that Super Saiyan 2 has two times the strength of a regular Super Saiyan, and of course the Kaio-ken x2 doubles Goku’s battle power. Of course, Nappa’s official BP is 4,000, putting him at half of Goku’s 8,000, but that’s a can of worms I’ll tackle another day.

The next big counterargument is that, simply, power isn’t everything. Goku at the start of DB may already have more ki than the average joe, but that’s not the only trick up his sleeve. Let’s not forget that Goku, like Keanu Reeves, knows kung-fu. That on its own is going to make a huge difference in a fight against some dude off the street who doesn’t know a thing about fighting. Even if his BP was just 5, it wouldn’t be too surprising for him to easily beat that old Farmer with a Shotgun, simply due to the skill gap. In fact, during the early parts of DB we hear a lot about characters making “wasteful movements”, and a lot of training therefore centers around teaching them to move more efficiently. Most notably, Popo’s lessons to Goku in the manga center entirely around skills rather than anything to do with power; Popo even flat-out tells Goku that Goku can’t beat him with power alone. The anime even underlines the point further by including a filler episode where Goku gets his ass kicked by a doll version of himself that we’re told is equal to him in power but has already mastered the ki-sensing skills Popo is trying to teach.

What’s more, Goku’s got an unusually tough body. After noting how his BP is twice that of a normal person, Daizenshuu 7 adds that “what’s more, his body is tough enough to repel a gun bullet”. This makes it sound like his body’s toughness is an additional factor, separate from battle power. On that note, in the SEG: Story Guide, Toriyama explains that “there’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with ‘ki’”. This makes it sound like physical strength can be “toughened up” on its own independent of ki, even if eventually you’ll hit a limit that requires ki to get around.

Perhaps it’s best to look at the early portion of DB as where Goku and co. learn a solid foundation of fighting skills and train their physical bodies to the limit, after which all they can really do to get stronger is raise their ki (ie battle power). This could be a good hand-wavey explanation for why the pre-Z battle power numbers tend to seem a bit cramped compared to what we get with Raditz onward: for these early characters, getting physically tougher and learning to move more efficiently can make a tremendous difference even if their BP number doesn’t go up by all that much.

But I guess I’ll save a full discussion of all those other pre-Z BPs and whether or not they’re cramped for some other time.

[RandomGuy96]

On the "many times stronger", "beyond comparison", "not even using half" comments not really fitting with such a low level for Goku: that same Weekly Jump issue also said that 23rd Budokai Goku was 910, did it not? That would suggest that the 416 he was read at at the beginning of the series was simply a resting level, like Piccolo's 1,220 that was read by Nappa. Which is supported by the levels everyone else is read at: Ten being at 250 wouldn't make a lot of sense for example, since he was able to keep up with weighted Goku (read at 334 here) at the 23rd Budokai. There's also him being suggested to be superior to King Piccolo at the 23rd Budokai, who was stronger than 22nd Budokai Goku at far less than half his power, which doesn't go with Roshi being 139 and Ten being 250, greater than half of Ten's power.

I guess you could try to excuse the 910 number as just Goku's Super Kamehameha, but that brings up two questions: one, why doesn't the image depict Goku firing a Kamehameha (like he is in the images where his KK X4/X20 battle powers are given), and two, how did Piccolo Jr. survive such a ridiculously strong attack if he himself is so weak? Of course, the other levels on that page somewhat muck it up by having King Piccolo and post-water Goku at only 260, so it doesn't seem like they cared about the massive gaps in power implied between the characters in the King Piccolo arc (e.g. Drum stomping Ten, Goku kicking Drum's eyes out). Maybe it was more concerned with having a humongous gap between Piccolo/Goku and everyone else, and fitting in Piccolo's "many times stronger" statement at the 23rd Budokai?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

About the "many times stronger" comments, I don't think we should take them literally. I mean, Piccolo didn't have a scouter to compare his old BP with his new one. It just means that he got much stronger than he was.

[Bussani]

Good points, Herms. I'm definitely a fan of the idea that there's more to ki when it comes to strength, and that everyone has "base stats" that ki simply enhances. Even ignoring that, having a lot of ki and using it efficiently aren't the same thing, and I'm pretty sure a Toriyama quote from one of the Super Exciting Guides said something about "the size of one's ki and how it's used" being important factors in that respect. I kind of think Dragon Ball should have gone into ideas like this more deeply and had individual traits play more of a part in how a battle goes--but I guess we could argue it does, with several situations where a character seems to be more resilient than you'd expect from their battle power alone.

Of course, if you want to see all of that applied and talked about within a show, you can always watch Hunter x Hunter.

“there’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with ‘ki’”

I think it might also be possible to interpret this as there always being a limit to the physical strength you have at that time, rather than a limit that can never, ever be surpassed. Of course, there are also quotes from guides about Vegeta training his muscles "to their limits", but I suppose that kind of thing is also open to interpretation.

[RandomGuy96]

About the "many times stronger" comments, I don't think we should take them literally. I mean, Piccolo didn't have a scouter to compare his old BP with his new one. It just means that he got much stronger than he was.

Regardless, characters should still be aware of their own strength like they are in the post-Raditz portions, even if they can't measure it numerically. Like Freeza being correct in his assessment of what 50% of his power was. If King Piccolo says he isn't even putting out half his power, then he probably shouldn't be. But that would of course contradict the level he was actually given in Weekly Jump, and even the battle powers given in the manga if 250 is really Ten's full power.

There's also a lot of feats that just don't fit such cramped scaling if 416/408/250/206/177 weren't resting levels and if the rest of the power levels in Weekly Jump apply with that, like old Piccolo (apparently far inferior to 260) tanking Goku's Kamehameha (180+) without a scratch, Goku (260) dispatching Drum (far over 180) with one blow, Kami (far below 400) stopping Goku's (260) charge with one finger, and Tenshinhan (~250) defeating Cyborg Tao (210) in one hit after effortlessly dodging all of his attacks.

Everyone being at the very limit of their powers when read by Raditz's scouter doesn't make a whole lot of sense anyway. That'd imply they just walk around at full strength all the time, which isn't what happens later. Piccolo arrives to fight Nappa suppressed to 1,220, Goku just walking around without fighting in the Saiyan arc was read as 5,000, etc.

[dbgtFO]

I guess you could try to excuse the 910 number as just Goku's Super Kamehameha, but that brings up two questions: one, why doesn't the image depict Goku firing a Kamehameha (like he is in the images where his KK X4/X20 battle powers are given),

It doesn't depict Gohan firing a Masenko for his 2,800 level either.

[Gaffer Tape]

a pretty tough costumer

Wow, that's a description of Goku I never thought I'd read. But I'd certainly be interested in seeing a picture of it now.

[RandomGuy96]

I guess you could try to excuse the 910 number as just Goku's Super Kamehameha, but that brings up two questions: one, why doesn't the image depict Goku firing a Kamehameha (like he is in the images where his KK X4/X20 battle powers are given),

It doesn't depict Gohan firing a Masenko for his 2,800 level either.

I just take that as evidence that 2,800 was just his regular enraged power, which makes sense given he kicks Nappa into a rock right before quick firing that Masenko.

[dbgtFO]

Each to his own I suppose, but I'm firmly of the conviction that full power is trumped by one's full power blast, so Gohan kicking Nappa should be different from Gohan firing his Masenko.

[RandomGuy96]

Each to his own I suppose, but I'm firmly of the conviction that full power is trumped by one's full power blast, so Gohan kicking Nappa should be different from Gohan firing his Masenko.

I'd think that, if Gohan's kick was significantly weaker than the 2,800 the blast was read at, Nappa would have just tanked it, since he's 4,000. And also that Piccolo would have been killed dead if he was really a mere 400 to the Kamehameha's 910, rather than being able to tank it twice.

[dbgtFO]

Nappa was already getting punched away by the likes of Krillin(1770), so I don't see why he has to be able to tank Gohan.
It's hard to determine what is or isn't impossible with a certain power gap, as the following arc has Vegeta not being disintegrated by a blast half the power of the blast, that would defeat(according to Goku anyway) a Vegeta 10 times stronger than normal.

I will hold it at that, as I don't want to derail the thread further.

[RandomGuy96]

Nappa was already getting punched away by the likes of Krillin(1770), so I don't see why he has to be able to tank Gohan.
It's hard to determine what is or isn't impossible with a certain power gap, as the following arc has Vegeta not being disintegrated by a blast half the power of the blast, that would defeat(according to Goku anyway) a Vegeta 10 times stronger than normal.

I will hold it at that, as I don't want to derail the thread further.

Krillin caught him off guard. I just don't see enough evidence that the blast raised his power, especially because he's just mad in the picture and not firing anything.

I thought that was just a simple instance of Goku being wrong.

Anyway, I'm just noting a rather important level that Herms seemed to be missing there, since the topic was how cramped the pre-Raditz levels supposedly are. Also, I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense for Goku, Piccolo, and everyone else to be at absolutely maximum strength while just standing around. That never seems to happen again.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

There had to have been a difference between Gohan kicking Nappa and when he was pissed off a bit after. His power is immediately noted by Vegeta's scouter once he gets angry--then Krillin and Vegeta both make note of Gohan's power once he begins to power-up the Masenko. I think it's because the instances are different. I'm pretty sure the Masenko was a considerable amount of power, since he got so much weaker after using it.

[dbgtFO]

That never seems to happen again.

That has always bothered me too.
At first the scouter seems to be reading their full power, then only changing the reading, when they fire off their special attacks.
But then almost 1 year later, their 'standing still' powers are actually suppressed powers and they can fight with higher levels than that and Goku now powers up.

I too ended up chalking up their 400 levels as suppressed due to that, but Daizenshuu 7(and subsequent guidebooks) seem to just consider them their full powers, so I just go with that.

[RandomGuy96]

That never seems to happen again.

That has always bothered me too.
At first the scouter seems to be reading their full power, then only changing the reading, when they fire off their special attacks.
But then almost 1 year later, their 'standing still' powers are actually suppressed powers and they can fight with higher levels than that and Goku now powers up.

I too ended up chalking up their 400 levels as suppressed due to that, but Daizenshuu 7(and subsequent guidebooks) seem to just consider them their full powers, so I just go with that.

It seems to, but it could just be the Daizenshuu regurgitating information from the manga again. They WERE read at 408 and 416, so it makes sense to at least have those numbers next to their pictures, even if the levels everyone are read at do contradict much of what happens before and after Raditz. That along with Weekly Jump pegging Goku at 910 (alternatively, Piccolo's feat of tanking the Kamehameha if that's what the level is supposed to be) is why I assume that wasn't his full power.

[miguelnuva1]

Plot has a lot to do with power levels. It's why a 4,000 Nappa and an over 8,000 Goku were having an even fight unless you think Nappa is higher than 4,000.

[dbgtFO]

I wouldn't fault anyone for thinking his battle power should be higher, but at the same time I don't doubt that the 4,000 battle power is what Toriyama had in mind, when depicting his fights.

[RandomGuy96]

I wouldn't fault anyone for thinking his battle power should be higher, but at the same time I don't doubt that the 4,000 battle power is what Toriyama had in mind, when depicting his fights.

Yeah, neither do I. The Earthlings are able to get in some shots on him and a 2,800 Masenko stings his hand, whereas Nappa himself isn't even able to lay a finger on Goku, and freaks out when he hears his resting level of 5,000.

Anyway, another thing about pre-Raditz levels it that they seem to be inconsistent with their own statements. For example, Cymbal is "many times weaker than" Tambourine, according to King Piccolo.

Chapter: 140, P10.6
Context: Piccolo talking to Tambourine
Piccolo: “Immediately go and take care of whoever killed Cymbal! You’re many times stronger than Cymbal, but don’t get caught off guard.”

I'm pretty sure the Daizenshuu restates this in Cymbal's or Tambourine's bio. Tambourine himself was above Krillin yet below Goku, pegged in the Daiz and Weekly Jump at 180. So I guess it'd be what, 140 for Tambourine and 35 for Cymbal? I think four is the minimum for "many" to be an appropriate term.

Chapter: 135, P4.1
Context: after Goku runs off to fight Tambourine
Kame-sennin: “That idiot! This is someone good enough to defeat Kuririn…”

Yet Cymbal actually lands some hits on Yajirobe, who fought Goku to a draw just minutes prior, and Yajirobe actually bothered to dodge Cymbal's blasts. Goku considers him defeating Cymbal to be super impressive and is seemingly surprised by it, despite having just fought him before.

Chapter: 139, P11.4
Context: said after Yajirobe slices Cymbal in two.
Goku: “Wow…a-amazin’…!”

Yajirobe even groups Cymbal with Goku as a "extremely strong guy", but I guess that's just because he's a lot stronger than the average wild animal or martial artist, not that he's in any way comparable to Goku. But he says this after Cymbal hits him, so...

Similarly, King Piccolo groups Tambourine and Cymbal together and considers it impressive that Goku beat them, but he could just be referring to Tambourine. Seems weird he'd reference them both, though, if someone that could defeat Cymbal with ease would still be no match for Tambourine. So maybe "many times weaker/stronger" really doesn't mean the same thing as being many times weaker/stronger in terms of pure battle power. Even then though, King Piccolo's "not even putting out half of my power" statement should apply. Does the Daizenshuu say anything about Tambourine being many times greater than Cymbal in battle power specifically?

Chapter: 139, P6.4
Context: after Cymbal and Yajirobe fight a little
Yajirobe: “Today’s an odd day…I keep running across these extremely strong guys…”

Chapter: 142, P13.3
Piccolo: “Seems you’re pretty skilled in the martial arts…Defeating two of the warriors that I sent…”

[Saiga]

That never seems to happen again.

That has always bothered me too.
At first the scouter seems to be reading their full power, then only changing the reading, when they fire off their special attacks.
But then almost 1 year later, their 'standing still' powers are actually suppressed powers and they can fight with higher levels than that and Goku now powers up.

I too found this weird, however, I thought it was a matter of skill. They're never shown openly powering up in the earlier parts of DB, and so I think maybe proper suppression was beyond their abilities at this point.

[RandomGuy96]

That never seems to happen again.

That has always bothered me too.
At first the scouter seems to be reading their full power, then only changing the reading, when they fire off their special attacks.
But then almost 1 year later, their 'standing still' powers are actually suppressed powers and they can fight with higher levels than that and Goku now powers up.

I too found this weird, however, I thought it was a matter of skill. They're never shown openly powering up in the earlier parts of DB, and so I think maybe proper suppression was beyond their abilities at this point.

So you think Goku and the others somehow learned the ability to actually suppress their battle powers in the one year between Raditz and the other two saiyans, and couldn't do it prior?

I wonder what was going through Toriyama's mind here, because I think both interpretations (the Kamehameha being far beyond his normal battle power or it being his regular power, with 416 being suppressed) kinda violate the story's structure. The ability to control battle powers later is a reference to suppression when Vegeta and Nappa show up, and Vegeta orders Nappa not to rely on the numbers because "they can change their battle powers" before he even confirms that they're suppressed. That to me indicates that Raditz misread Goku and Piccolo, like Nappa is doing right now. On the other hand, it seems that the Kamehameha scene was meant to introduce us to the concept of fighters using attacks beyond their normal power. Though I guess you could say the Makakakapotomous right after that was actually the scene meant to show this particular ability.

Hmmm... what if Vegeta's "a little over 1,000 at most" was actually referring to their real powers, rather than Piccolo's attack, and Raditz underestimated them based on their resting levels, and simply didn't call out their real powers later because he wasn't paying attention to his scouter/didn't care? That'd explain Vegeta's attitude about it when he arrives, at least, and why he only thinks they're a little over a thousand when Piccolo's attack was decently over it, killing 1,500 Raditz. Not to mention Vegeta seems to be able to amplify his ki attacks later, so shouldn't he know better than to actually say that Goku and Piccolo have battle powers of over 1,000 if they really don't? That it's just their techniques in action? Heck, Nappa seems to be able to amplify his ki too. So what gives?