Does SS4 Need A Tail?

[Gyt Kaliba]

So I'm not sure why, but Stonefallow's thread about if Oozaru and Super Saiyan God could be used at once, sparked another question in my mind.

For the Oozaru form to be accessible to a Saiyan, there has to be a full moon (for the purpose of this question, let's ignore the fake moon trick) and the Saiyan in question has to have a tail. The Super Saiyan 4 form is reached through a Saiyan that's capable of going Super Saiyan transforming into an oozaru again and/or receiving enough blutz waves or whatever. Now, it's pretty obvious that the moon is no longer required for a Saiyan to transform into a Super Saiyan 4 once they've achieved it - at least, nothing in GT seems to suggest that it's always a full moon for Goku, and he never seems to have to look for one or anything, he just transforms. ...But what about the tail? If someone were to cut off a Super Saiyan 4's tail, would they revert back to their base form? Or is the tail once again irrelevant at that point?

[Pantalones]

Good question. I'd like to think the tail is vital to SSj4 (it's connected to Oozaru after all), but there's really nothing suggesting either way since GT never had a SSj4 lose their tail.

Would be kind of interesting if the loss of a tail *does* cancel SSj4, though. Makes it less of an "overpowered best-in-all-categories form" and gives it an exploitable weakness just like SSj3's massive energy drain--to reliably win as a SSj4 you need to not only be stronger than your opponent, but also a legitimately better fighter in order to avoid any attacks aimed at removing the tail (which is significantly less durable than the rest of a Saiyan, as seen from the many examples of someone cutting off Oozaru tails with things that probably wouldn't have scratched the rest of the Saiyan's body.) Gives 'em a reason to be careful even against weaker opponents--if you get too cocky you'll lose the tail and then lose the fight. Seems like something that would've happened to Vegeta at some point if GT worked like Z.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

I always thought if someone were to cut off a Super Saiyan 4's tail, would they revert back to their base form.
It just makes sense to me.

[Herms]

Now, it's pretty obvious that the moon is no longer required for a Saiyan to transform into a Super Saiyan 4 once they've achieved it - at least, nothing in GT seems to suggest that it's always a full moon for Goku, and he never seems to have to look for one or anything, he just transforms.

Actually when SSj4 Vegeta turns up, there's a plot point about how Vegeta needs a supply of Bruits Waves for the transformation, in contrast to Goku, who can freely transform without help from any Bruits Waves because he's "abnormal" (according to Vegeta). This is never explained any further, and it seems like another of the random special powers GT gives Goku, like his sudden ability to simply be immune to any techniques that he's seen before.

As for the tail, it's also said that since Vegeta didn't have one, he needed to get soaked with, like, x1000 times the normal amount of Bruits Waves or some such thing. I don't know if he'd revert back to normal if his SSj4 tail got cut off, but since he grew a new tail from scratch once exposed to enough Bruits Waves, he might be able to just regrow his tail right away, Namekian-style, as long as his source of Bruits Waves kept up.

[Nikkolas]

I was wondering if it was even possible for Trunks and Goten to go SSJ4 then since they never had a tail to begin with.

[Low Tone G]

I was wondering if it was even possible for Trunks and Goten to go SSJ4 then since they never had a tail to begin with.

It's been ever mentioned anywhere that Goten and Trunk were born without a tail? I mean in the manga... It's hard for me to beilve that Goten and at least didn't have tail at birth when he looks like Goku.

[Nikkolas]

It's been ever mentioned anywhere that Goten and Trunk were born without a tail? I mean in the manga... It's hard for me to beilve that Goten and at least didn't have tail at birth when he looks like Goku.

This post quotes a Daizenshuu that says they were born without tails.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Actually when SSj4 Vegeta turns up, there's a plot point about how Vegeta needs a supply of Bruits Waves for the transformation, in contrast to Goku, who can freely transform without help from any Bruits Waves because he's "abnormal" (according to Vegeta). This is never explained any further, and it seems like another of the random special powers GT gives Goku, like his sudden ability to simply be immune to any techniques that he's seen before.

As for the tail, it's also said that since Vegeta didn't have one, he needed to get soaked with, like, x1000 times the normal amount of Bruits Waves or some such thing. I don't know if he'd revert back to normal if his SSj4 tail got cut off, but since he grew a new tail from scratch once exposed to enough Bruits Waves, he might be able to just regrow his tail right away, Namekian-style, as long as his source of Bruits Waves kept up.

Yeah, how would Vegeta even know something like that? Vegeta hasn't transformed into SS4 before. He doesn't have a tail either. While he does gain one after transforming, it ends up disappearing along with the rest of the transformation once it wears off. So I'm going to assume him calling Goku abnormal is just him being sour about the whole situation and not some special Goku ability. If anything, Goku is the natural example here and Vegeta is the abnormal one.

For the rest of it, I'm just going to assume that the Super Saiyan 4 form has to deal with the gland in the tail the same way Ozaru does. So if you cut off a Super Saiyan 4's tail and remove that gland, they transform back to base the same as an Ozaru. In Vegeta's case, the overload of Bruits Waves forced his body to regrow the tail, but afterward that energy was stored in the gland the same as a normal Saiyan tail or whatever.

My biggest question though, is if Vegeta forcibly had his tail regrown with the Bruits Waves and it appeared before he actually went Ozaru. Why did it disappear after SS4 wore off? It wasn't something that form had granted him, he had it before he reached it. To me, that seems like Piccolo being able to regrow and arm after drinking a gallon or water, but having it disappear once he starts to dehydrate.

[Kishido]

Before creating a new thread I will use this one...

I never understood why in the past tails have regrown and in Vegeta's case never...

With Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta it is even more strange... I know he got their on a strange way... Still SS4 Vegeta has a tail while base Vegeta after transforming back not.

Maybe I should it take as "do not thinkg about it" as Goku being an adult in his SS4 form while chibi in his others

[DBZAOTA482]

Vegeta transformed into it without tail so no.

[Kishido]

Vegeta transformed into it without tail so no.

Yeah but it doesn't explain why he has a tail in SS4 mode and after transforming back not...

But as I pointed above... It's just as stupid as suddenly making him look adult in Goku's case.

What if Giku would have been really a kid even in age?

Would he still be adult looking in SS4 form?

[Lord Beerus]

As DBZAOTA482 pointed out, Vegeta became a SSJ4 even though he had no tail originally. So no, you don't need a tail to become a SSJ4.

[Kishido]

As DBZAOTA482 pointed out, Vegeta became a SSJ4 even though he had no tail originally. So no, you don't need a tail to become a SSJ4.

Of course not... but it is still strange... All the time it was said YOU NEED A TAIL to transform into an Oozaru... And in Vegeta's case it has been just the waved which have been needed. So what was the point of getting the tail back of Goku?

And again... it doesn't explain why SS4 have for both have a tail... And Vegeta is losing it again after going back to normal.

[DBZAOTA482]

See, this is what happens when you try to make sense outta GT. Your brain will not love you.

[Sandubadear]

The Bruits Wave Generator shot Vegeta with so many Bruits Waves that he grew a tail, and then with the tail gland, he went Oozaru.

Vegeta only went SSJ4 once, and the reason he asked for more Bruits Waves to Bulma was because his energy was completely depleted, not because he can only go SSJ4 with the generator. If he were healed and full power, I think it's possible that he could go SSJ4 by himself.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Yes. To achieve it, you need a tail & a moon, since you have to become an Oozaru first, except if you can get an unnatural dose of Bruitz Waves, like Vegeta did. But without a tail, you can't keep transforming, since Goku with a tail could transform whenever he wanted, but Vegeta couldn't transform on his own because he didn't have a tail.

[dbgtFO]

Vegeta only went SSJ4 once,

, but Vegeta couldn't transform on his own because he didn't have a tail.

I seem to recall people posting screenshots of base Vegeta next to Kid Goku, followed by SS4 Vegeta next to Kid Goku to show the differences in height between the two forms, but also implying that Vegeta not only went SS4 on his own, but also did it more than the one time prior to fusing with Goku.

Can someone confirm this?

[Sandubadear]

Vegeta only transforms once. He fuses with Goku, creating Gogeta. Then the fusion wears off, but they keep trying again. Then, Goku's energy runs out, and he reverts to his base form.

Spoiler:

Vegeta stays as a SSJ4 for a while, but then his energy also runs out and he reverts to his base.

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta transformed into it without tail so no.

Yeah but it doesn't explain why he has a tail in SS4 mode and after transforming back not...

But as I pointed above... It's just as stupid as suddenly making him look adult in Goku's case.

What if Giku would have been really a kid even in age?

Would he still be adult looking in SS4 form?

If Goku somehow got SSJ4 when he was say 12 like in the start of Dragon Ball, he'd be a kid SSJ4. However, since Goku's artificially made into a child, him turning into a SSJ4 "breaks" the wish put on him and gives him back his proper adult body. Not much of a stretch really since certain wishes cannot effect beings stronger than the creator of the Dragon Balls, Goku getting a 4000 times boost that also essentially transforms his entire body breaking the wish, temporarily, makes sense to me at least.

[dbgtFO]

Vegeta only transforms once. He fuses with Goku, creating Gogeta. Then the fusion wears off, but they keep trying again. Then, Goku's energy runs out, and he reverts to his base form.

Spoiler:

Vegeta stays as a SSJ4 for a while, but then his energy also runs out and he reverts to his base.

Ah, so that's how it went..
Thanks