Can our next arc villian be a woman?

[Viewtiful Jess]

My lord the topic went to hell in a hand basket all because someone dare not agree with the SJWs here. Lovely.

Oh. My god.

So back on topic, yes a female villain would be cool, but it probably will not come to pass. I presume we'll probably see another very strong "good" female, kinda like Vados, because this is a japanese anime with a very traditional and old creator. Just a wager, certainly nothing set in stone.

Right now I'd be happy just seeing Vados fight. I know there's a separate topic for it but having in Xenoverse 2 to see how she fights would be great. Hopefully not a complete reskin of Whis. As for the series though a couple of strong moments would get me by.

[JulieYBM]

Put me in charge of the next arc, I'll include a woman as the main antagonist.

Mind you, there will be a lot of sex scenes and breast bouncing, too, so pick your battles wisely.

[Swifticuffs]

My lord the topic went to hell in a hand basket all because someone dare not agree with the SJWs here. Lovely.

Oh. My god.

So back on topic, yes a female villain would be cool, but it probably will not come to pass. I presume we'll probably see another very strong "good" female, kinda like Vados, because this is a japanese anime with a very traditional and old creator. Just a wager, certainly nothing set in stone.

Right now I'd be happy just seeing Vados fight. I know there's a separate topic for it but having in Xenoverse 2 to see how she fights would be great. Hopefully not a complete reskin of Whis. As for the series though a couple of strong moments would get me by.

Jess I will reply to you via PM with my comments further rather than italicizing something I don't agree with. Very childish.

That said, yes, I'd love to see Vados fight. But I do not think we'll sadly see Whis, Vados, or anyone ever have any meaningful fighting. Whis mostly just dodges... sadly.

[Shin]

Put me in charge of the next arc, I'll include a woman as the main antagonist.

Mind you, there will be a lot of sex scenes and breast bouncing, too, so pick your battles wisely.

come on really

[Swifticuffs]

Put me in charge of the next arc, I'll include a woman as the main antagonist.

Mind you, there will be a lot of sex scenes and breast bouncing, too, so pick your battles wisely.

come on really

That guys avatar drives me wild. I know this isn't the place to be during work, but I can get away with it until his silly avatar pops up. Also did you expect anything less from a guy with an avatar like that?

[Shin]

That guys avatar drives me wild. I know this isn't the place to be during work, but I can get away with it until his silly avatar pops up. Also did you expect anything less from a guy with an avatar like that?

Nevermind the fact there's kids on this forum too.

The day that Whis or Vados fight is the day I die. Whis like you said just dodges and zips around attacking pressure points. Though it does show how strong he is, I'd like to see both of them showcase their abilities further.

[Swifticuffs]

That guys avatar drives me wild. I know this isn't the place to be during work, but I can get away with it until his silly avatar pops up. Also did you expect anything less from a guy with an avatar like that?

Nevermind the fact there's kids on this forum too.

The day that Whis or Vados fight is the day I die. Whis like you said just dodges and zips around attacking pressure points. Though it does show how strong he is, I'd like to see both of them showcase their abilities further.

It's kind of the way Toriyama and co want to take this, I believe. These mystical beings are there to keep the God of Destruction in place. It's kind of why they also tied their life force with the Kaioshin: to stop overbearing power from running wild. And it doesn't need to only be done, in this magical fairy tale world, through brute force. It's done through magical deterrence and threats of "I blink, and it's gone" magical destruction by our 2 foot mystical overlord. I like the King of All, but sheesh. I wish they'd give a backstory, like how he (she, it, i don't mind honestly) is a child born into the position after the old one died or something. It's a toddler ffs...

[JulieYBM]

Toriyama will probably never depict woman in lead antagonistic roles. I don't think he's capable of doing so lovingly. What made Jako, Beers and Whis so fun as new additions to the franchise is just how much fun Toriyama was clearly having writing their dialogue. Don't force art, just do what comes naturally and passionately. As a result, I don't think having a female villain would work unless the main creative force behind the storyline had concrete ideas and the ability to articulate them. That isn't going to be Toriyama Akira.

I'm not a feminist and I don't really care for putting one's political sentiments into their art in such a serious fashion. In that respect, I think Toriyama's genius is apparent: the rest of the world doesn't matter to him and he isn't trying to fix it. Having a message is fine, but only insofar as it doesn't get in the way of the art of entertaining storytelling.

Sexuality is something I find missing in a lot of the mainstream art I consume, so I want to see that included more in the art I consume. The biggest thing to draw me to Sword Art Online is not the great narrative, but the relationship between Kirito and Asuna. They meet, they relate, they make the best of their shared circumstances and they become an actual married couple early on. There's no unnaturally prolonged "will they, won't they", we cut to the real meat of their relationship and get to see new story possibilities told. What is it with US television shows needing their main man and lady that obviously belong together going through so many damned failed relationships first? It completely ruins the rhythm and tone. Returning from that little aside, Asuna isn't some stereotyped entrenched in "I'm a strong, independent woman" silliness. Her character very much feels like a figure for Kawahara Reki and the readers' masturbation, but as a result of that stands as an individual. She's tough, but doesn't flaunt it. She doesn't lose her cuteness and femininity. She isn't an Amazon like your Wonder Woman or your other generic female action hero. Asuna with a sword in her hand is just as natural a sight as Asuna in an apron worrying about whether or not her husband is going to like her cooking. I can certainly relate to such trivial things, too. The feelings of inadequacy that Asuna feels in the face of her mother during the Mother's Rosario arc are all too real for me, too.

A lot of Hollywood female characters feel very detached and inhuman to me, representing nothing of their creators personality or vices. One of the reasons I love Blooma so much is just how terrible she is (whoring herself out to get what she wants, expecting others to do things for her), while also somehow being that one sliver of Toriyama capable of thinking from the point of view of a normal person, like when she suggests killing Doctor Gero before the Artificial Humans are created. There's something extremely human in the selfishness and high-maintenance attitude Blooma displays, or how Maki from Love Lab uses a dakimakura for practicing talking to boys. It's Otaku creating art for other Otaku, but it rings true and human. The further from our reality a character becomes the more they appear individualistic and thought-provoking. Cersei from Game of Thrones is a favorite of mine in this regard, although even she gets too big for her britches and has faults within the narrative. The consumer's understanding that they are consuming fiction highlights all the more the aspects of that fiction that represent the real person creating them. This is why over-the-top mannerisms are so effective and why I think our creative culture has become too obsessed with 'subtlety' as the only indicator of high/worthy art.

If Dragon Ball could create a character both narratively and sexuality attractive to its consumer, I think the overall product would grow immensely. Whether that comes in the form of a man or a woman character doesn't really matter.

come on really

Don't worry, I'm an individual first and foremost. If I were a gay man or a straight woman I'd include big, articulately drawn penis' on the men, too!

That guys avatar drives me wild. I know this isn't the place to be during work, but I can get away with it until his silly avatar pops up. Also did you expect anything less from a guy with an avatar like that?

I'm into Dragon Ball for the highly philosophical discussions about life, social status and economical classism first and foremost.

Sarcasm aside, I do take offense to how you put down one form of art you don't like, despite the form of art you do like (Dragon Ball, comics and animation in general) also being looked down upon by society. Perhaps I can ask you to consider that in the future?

That guys avatar drives me wild. I know this isn't the place to be during work, but I can get away with it until his silly avatar pops up. Also did you expect anything less from a guy with an avatar like that?

Nevermind the fact there's kids on this forum too.

If you (general 'you', kids included) can read Dragon Ball--filled with bare breasts, penises, gore, blood, and the use of violence to resolve conflict--you can stand to look at the lovingly illustrated slice-of-life adventures of the greatest and happiest fictional lesbian married couple of all time.

[Swifticuffs]

Toriyama will probably never depict woman in lead antagonistic roles. I don't think he's capable of doing so lovingly. What made Jako, Beers and Whis so fun as new additions to the franchise is just how much fun Toriyama was clearly having writing their dialogue. Don't force art, just do what comes naturally and passionately. As a result, I don't think having a female villain would work unless the main creative force behind the storyline had concrete ideas and the ability to articulate them. That isn't going to be Toriyama Akira.

I'm not a feminist and I don't really care for putting one's political sentiments into their art in such a serious fashion. In that respect, I think Toriyama's genius is apparent: the rest of the world doesn't matter to him and he isn't trying to fix it. Having a message is fine, but only insofar as it doesn't get in the way of the art of entertaining storytelling.

Sexuality is something I find missing in a lot of the mainstream art I consume, so I want to see that included more in the art I consume. The biggest thing to draw me to Sword Art Online is not the great narrative, but the relationship between Kirito and Asuna. They meet, they relate, they make the best of their shared circumstances and they become an actual married couple early on. There's no unnaturally prolonged "will they, won't they", we cut to the real meat of their relationship and get to see new story possibilities told. What is it with US television shows needing their main man and lady that obviously belong together going through so many damned failed relationships first? It completely ruins the rhythm and tone. Returning from that little aside, Asuna isn't some stereotyped entrenched in "I'm a strong, independent woman" silliness. Her character very much feels like a figure for Kawahara Reki and the readers' masturbation, but as a result of that stands as an individual. She's tough, but doesn't flaunt it. She doesn't lose her cuteness and femininity. She isn't an Amazon like your Wonder Woman or your other generic female action hero. Asuna with a sword in her hand is just as natural a sight as Asuna in an apron worrying about whether or not her husband is going to like her cooking. I can certainly relate to such trivial things, too. The feelings of inadequacy that Asuna feels in the face of her mother during the Mother's Rosario arc are all too real for me, too.

A lot of Hollywood female characters feel very detached and inhuman to me, representing nothing of their creators personality or vices. One of the reasons I love Blooma so much is just how terrible she is (whoring herself out to get what she wants, expecting others to do things for her), while also somehow being that one sliver of Toriyama capable of thinking from the point of view of a normal person, like when she suggests killing Doctor Gero before the Artificial Humans are created. There's something extremely human in the selfishness and high-maintenance attitude Blooma displays, or how Maki from Love Lab uses a dakimakura for practicing talking to boys. It's Otaku creating art for other Otaku, but it rings true and human. The further from our reality a character becomes the more they appear individualistic and thought-provoking. Cersei from Game of Thrones is a favorite of mine in this regard, although even she gets too big for her britches and has faults within the narrative. The consumer's understanding that they are consuming fiction highlights all the more the aspects of that fiction that represent the real person creating them. This is why over-the-top mannerisms are so effective and why I think our creative culture has become too obsessed with 'subtlety' as the only indicator of high/worthy art.

If Dragon Ball could create a character both narratively and sexuality attractive to its consumer, I think the overall product would grow immensely. Whether that comes in the form of a man or a woman character doesn't really matter.

come on really

Don't worry, I'm an individual first and foremost. If I were a gay man or a straight woman I'd include big, articulately drawn penis' on the men, too!

That guys avatar drives me wild. I know this isn't the place to be during work, but I can get away with it until his silly avatar pops up. Also did you expect anything less from a guy with an avatar like that?

I'm into Dragon Ball for the highly philosophical discussions about life, social status and economical classism first and foremost.

Sarcasm aside, I do take offense to how you put down one form of art you don't like, despite the form of art you do like (Dragon Ball, comics and animation in general) also being looked down upon by society. Perhaps I can ask you to consider that in the future?

That guys avatar drives me wild. I know this isn't the place to be during work, but I can get away with it until his silly avatar pops up. Also did you expect anything less from a guy with an avatar like that?

Nevermind the fact there's kids on this forum too.

If you (general 'you', kids included) can read Dragon Ball--filled with bare breasts, penises, gore, blood, and the use of violence to resolve conflict--you can stand to look at the lovingly illustrated slice-of-life adventures of the greatest and happiest fictional lesbian married couple of all time.

I'm not putting you down for the art. Take the silly adjective as you want, but it just makes you seem creepy. Hentai? Sure do your thing, nothing wrong with it. But parading it around when we're talking about the series... eh, seems unnecessary and thus makes you creepy. And now I've put you down. I don't know how it hasn't been moderated yet, but whatevs.

[Viewtiful Jess]

Put me in charge of the next arc, I'll include a woman as the main antagonist.

Mind you, there will be a lot of sex scenes and breast bouncing, too, so pick your battles wisely.

That sounds like it wouldn't fit into the DB style. The best i think you'd get is Roshi grabbing her breast or butt while she's doing _ then probably dying from it.

[A Man named RJ]

I'm not putting you down for the art. Take the silly adjective as you want, but it just makes you seem creepy. Hentai? Sure do your thing, nothing wrong with it. But parading it around when we're talking about the series... eh, seems unnecessary and thus makes you creepy. And now I've put you down. I don't know how it hasn't been moderated yet, but whatevs.

"I'm not putting you down for the art."

proceeds to put him down for the art.

It's like you have no sense of consistency, or self awareness. Your personal tastes dont make something bad. it just means you have different personal tastes. and don't for a second assume your very personal metric and thoughts of poor tastes translates to others. he's creepy - to YOU. And your definition of creepy is "being unnessicary"? You know I WISH I was good enough a writer to make this kind of stuff up.
_______________________

On Topic: Jess, I think we're all in an agreement that the concept itself is fine. At this point the conversation is done. Next time you make a thread post, dont take everything so personally. People have been arguing their perspectives, that does not nessicarily mean they think you definitely believe X. A topic like this has a broad set of things to discuss, and we've done our part to do so. It's one thing to call for the thread to get back on topic, it's another to complain when that topic gets dissected, and take every thought as a direct challenge to YOUR personal ideology - unless directly quoted otherwise.

[Viewtiful Jess]

Yeah, you're right about that RJ. I think we're done here.

Mods can you lock this?

[JulieYBM]

I'm not putting you down for the art. Take the silly adjective as you want, but it just makes you seem creepy. Hentai? Sure do your thing, nothing wrong with it. But parading it around when we're talking about the series... eh, seems unnecessary and thus makes you creepy. And now I've put you down. I don't know how it hasn't been moderated yet, but whatevs.

Thank you for your response. That being said, I don't see the issue. I like Dragon Ball, a comic about a main character who has next to no moral coding and allows genocidal maniacs live just so he can do battle with them again. Gokuu resolves his conflict through violence, first and foremost. Isn't it agreed that such is not a particularly great way to deal with conflict? Yet millions take pleasure in that. We enjoy seeing one asshole genocidal maniac play cat-and-mouse games with another asshole genocidal maniac right after slaughtering an entire village. We enjoy how deliciously evil Freeza is for killing children in front of our eyes, burning them to a crisp. That seems pretty disturbing to me, but we all go along with it, right? That's because fiction is fiction and our appreciation is tied into that. The clearer our connection with reality the stronger our ability is to understand and appreciate fiction. I see no reason for that to be hunky-dory to talk about, but not others. We're responsible people here. In regards to any users who are minors or not, I see no reason to submit to their legal guardians that Dragon Ball--with all of its violence and lack of morality--is any more or less safe for their consumption than with or without sexuality. It isn't our place to have that discussion and it isn't the place of parents to rule what adult users do or do not discuss on a message board.

Dragon Ball has a sixteen year old girl show an old man her vagina early on in the series. I think that sets a pretty strong definition of just what the franchise is capable of, especially given its the follow-up work of an artist who has by that point already made his fortune with his previous title and is now just drawing whatever he thinks is entertaining.

Put me in charge of the next arc, I'll include a woman as the main antagonist.

Mind you, there will be a lot of sex scenes and breast bouncing, too, so pick your battles wisely.

That sounds like it wouldn't fit into the DB style. The best i think you'd get is Roshi grabbing her breast or butt while she's doing _ then probably dying from it.

It probably isn't what Toriyama would specifically do with Dragon Ball, but I would like to submit Maron and her giant boobs for consideration. Combine that with some much better animation and voila! Maron and the Dragon Ball Gals lines of figures are proof enough that official productions being openly sexual is certainly nothing new with the franchise.


I do think the topic has run its course, though. It realistically isn't plausible to have a female villain in an official production and what one fan wants is potentially not what another fan wants. We're all better off making our own fan productions to get what we want, it's the only way anyone will every possibly be even a tiny bit satisfied.

[Mazingerdestro]

Has fighting in manga between a man and a woman ever been considered abuse?


The show is already called misogynistic for the total sausage fest it is and how takes strong female characters and demotes the to the small of being "the mom (TM)" by both viewer and non-viewers. I don't think Japan or Akira Toriyama are the posterpeople for feminism. What is with this whole no feminism thing? I don't get it. You can have both in a character. I don't think Dragon Ball is quite there yet but if they could they can and it's not a bad thing.

I just want a good villian, as I see others do too. A good villian who is powerfu, and a woman or woman-like. Effeminate men do not count, they are still men unless stated otherwise.

Misogynistic? Dragonball? A show intended for 10 year old boys? Why?
Excluding the fact that this is the first time someone mentions that and the fact that Bulma is loved by the fans and the fact that this is a show intended for kids who have no interest in these stuff or girls in general and want to see cool fights and the fact that in general having women punching with men and suffering heavy damage wouĺd be immoral and the fact that no show that respect it's audience will have men harming women......have you ever saw a db style fight with a man fighting a woman? I have seen many women abusing men in anime for comedy but never a man punching a woman to the point she bleeds.....that would send so many wrong messages to young kids.....Who the actual fuck would ever wish for that?
Yeah what's next? I know Luffy punching nami to death!!!! Jesus......what's wrong with some people.....female in dbs are treated as smart, kind, and funny people and some wish to see them getting brutally punched.......


There is ano anime with strong women fighting. It's called sailormoon

I consider Videl's brutal beating as a strong moment that Toriyama should avoid to make and now I see people seeking for more? Why? .

Uh.. No one here is saying or implying we want to see a man brutally beat a woman.

We want to see a formidable foe, who happens to be a woman, offer a challenge to the protagonists for a change. To hold female characters to a standard where they should be viewed only as kind, gentle, and soft robs them of their humanity. Women fight. Women can hold their own. It's not difficult to see that.

Bringing up "sending the wrong message to children" excuse doesn't really make sense when the show is about fighting anyway lol. If we're really being too caring about children, they shouldn't even be watching a show with such violence to begin with. In fact, there's plenty of japanese media where the protagonist(s) are female leads who kick serious ass. (Mezzo Forte, Ghost In The Shell, Claymore) Yeah, they still get beat up time to time, but they hold their own. What's wrong with that?

[Yomi]

Oh. My God.

I think this thread went to shyt because of internet culture today.
The mainstream internet is saturated by radioactive radical feminism,
and this thread's topic "kinda, sorta" sounds like something those
radical feminist would say. So the Anti-SJW crowd got triggered.

That guy with the booby gif avatar did bring up a good point though.
Toriyama's vision should be just that, if it just so "happens" to end up falling
into your sensibilities then great, but if it doesn't, you just gotta shrug

Which is what I think you were saying you made this thread.
I believe the Original voice of the thread was:
"If the stars aligned, and Toriyama had a vision like this, I would be happy with that.
Would you guys be happy with that too? would that be cool?"
And people unjustly demonized you for that, and I'm on your side there.

but you shouldn't say things like "I mentioned strong women, and now look what happened, everyone's sexist"
because you really don't know where their opinions are coming from, and you shouldn't look for sexism where there is none.