How would the Z senshi fare vs the Androids if Goku wasn't sick?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Assume Android 16 won't get involved since he could most likely effortlessly win by himself.

Let's say only the 3 SSJs and Piccolo are actually fighting with the other Z fighters playing distraction and going for sneak attacks, Eg: Krillin firing Kienzans and Tenshinhan firing Kikohos into the fray.

Do the 3 SSJs and Piccolo have what it takes to beat 17 and 18, or will they lose even with the aid of their allies?

If they still lose, what happens if Piccolo decides to preemptively fuse with Kami before the battle as a precaution? Can this turn the tides?

[Roronoa-pt]

They would be easily defeated by the Androids, the only chance is Piccolo to fuse with Kami.

If Piccolo manages to fuse with Kami, I'd say they have a chance. Piccolo is enough to deal with #17, then a spam of Kikohos to crowd control #18 and a serious teamwork of SSJ Vegeta & SSJ Trunks could, at least, seriously damage #18.

[TheUltimateNinja]

They would be easily defeated by the Androids, the only chance is Piccolo to fuse with Kami.

If Piccolo manages to fuse with Kami, I'd say they have a chance. Piccolo is enough to deal with #17, then a spam of Kikohos to crowd control #18 and a serious teamwork of SSJ Vegeta & SSJ Trunks could, at least, seriously damage #18.

Really? I know the androids were a good deal stronger than the mid-tier SSJs but the difference didn't seem overwhelming to the extent that they could take on 2 at the same time, especially the more powerful and skilled ones like Goku and Vegeta, plus Piccolo seemed like he was approaching low-end SSJ even before he fused with Kami.

So, I'd say Trunks and Piccolo could distract 17 along with the rest of the Z senshi while Goku and Vegeta gang up on 18, and after they defeat her they could all take 17 together.

[DanielSSJ]

The power gap between the Androids and the Super Saiyans was fairly large, but not monstrously so. If the three Super Saiyans and Piccolo all ganged up on No. 17 or No. 18, odds are that they would've one. The problem is that they're not gonna fight such a large group of people on their own. With two extremely powerful fighters, whose stamina can't be worn down, the challenge becomes that much greater. If Piccolo recombines with God, it becomes a much different story. As long as Piccolo can keep Android No. 17 occupied, the three Super Saiyans can probably take out the slightly weaker No. 18 together. As soon as she falls, the Super Saiyans rush in to aid Piccolo, and No. 17 goes down easily.

[Draconic]

If Piccolo fused with Kami, him and Goku could defeat Android 17 in a two on one fight, probably even easier than they did against Raditz, while the rest would gang up on 18. Vegeta put up a pretty good fight against her alone, even though she was holding back. If him and Trunks pushed her into a corner, Tenshinan could use Kikoho to stun her for a while, much like against Semi-Perfect Cell, allowing Vegeta and Trunks to do severe damage in that period. Krillin could also use the Kienzan at that point and at least cut off some limbs, if not in half. She might survive that, depending on how her anatomy works, but at that point the saiyans should be able to finish her off for good.

If Piccolo doesn't fuse with Kami, they're fucked, as 17 will just one-shot everybody.

[Pantalones]

Yeah, #17 and #18 are too much for even three Super Saiyans at this point. #18 was pretty much just toying with Vegeta until the very end (when she crippled him immediately), and #17 took out Piccolo and Trunks in no time at all once they got involved. Trunks and Piccolo were weaker than Goku or Vegeta at this point, sure, but not by so much that the Androids would actually have trouble with Goku or Vegeta but could knock Trunks or Piccolo out of the fight in just one or two hits.

Having Goku there too would just mean #17 would have someone to beat the crap out of like #18 did with Vegeta rather than just watching her fight... and if anyone else made a move to step in, #17 and #18 would both be able to finish their fights with the stronger Saiyans pretty quick and take out Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, etc. just as easily as they did in the series.

Maybe it'd be a little different if they all somehow managed to team up against one of the Androids without the other one getting involved, or if Krillin got really lucky with a Kienzan, but otherwise there's no hope of them beating either Android unless Piccolo fuses with Kami beforehand -- everyone short of "Kamiccolo" is just too weak in comparison to the Androids to stand up against them for more than a few seconds once they get serious, and we've already seen that an attempt at ganging up on them will make them stop playing around.

[Lord Beerus]

The Z-Fighters still would have gotten their arses kicked. Android 18 defeated two Super Saiyans at once, and was she wasn't even taking the fight seriously. Plus, Android 17 was even stronger than her. Throwing Goku into the mix wouldn't have made a damn difference.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The Z-Fighters still would have gotten their arses kicked. Android 18 defeated two Super Saiyans at once, and was she wasn't even taking the fight seriously. Plus, Android 17 was even stronger than her. Throwing Goku into the mix wouldn't have made a damn difference.

Well, she didn't really take out 2 Super Saiyans at once. By the time Trunks interfered she had already beaten Vegeta down and 17 arrived to her aid to take care of the other Z fighters. Besides, at this point Trunks is weaker than Goku and Vegeta and I believe the 2 of them teaming up would be enough to defeat 18 and stalemate 17.

Besides, 17 even said 18 could be in trouble if she was on her own against all of the Z fighters and they didn't even have Goku there.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Yeah, #17 and #18 are too much for even three Super Saiyans at this point. #18 was pretty much just toying with Vegeta until the very end (when she crippled him immediately), and #17 took out Piccolo and Trunks in no time at all once they got involved. Trunks and Piccolo were weaker than Goku or Vegeta at this point, sure, but not by so much that the Androids would actually have trouble with Goku or Vegeta but could knock Trunks or Piccolo out of the fight in just one or two hits.

Having Goku there too would just mean #17 would have someone to beat the crap out of like #18 did with Vegeta rather than just watching her fight... and if anyone else made a move to step in, #17 and #18 would both be able to finish their fights with the stronger Saiyans pretty quick and take out Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, etc. just as easily as they did in the series.

Maybe it'd be a little different if they all somehow managed to team up against one of the Androids without the other one getting involved, or if Krillin got really lucky with a Kienzan, but otherwise there's no hope of them beating either Android unless Piccolo fuses with Kami beforehand -- everyone short of "Kamiccolo" is just too weak in comparison to the Androids to stand up against them for more than a few seconds once they get serious, and we've already seen that an attempt at ganging up on them will make them stop playing around.

I'm curious, what sort of gaps do you have between the androids and the Super Saiyans that lead you to believe even 3 wouldn't be enough to beat an android?

[FoolsGil]

Ideally, the Super Saiyans and Piccolo hold off the Androids until Tenshinhan gets into position and destroys the Androids with a Kikoho, or Krillin can use the Kienzan.

Problem is nothing ever works out like it's supposed to. Goku may very well die in an encounter with the Androids. Then the choice of what's next depends on them. If Tenshinhan and Krillin are taken down as well, then its up to Piccolo to fuse with Kami.

[MaxZ]

unless Piccolo fuses with Kami, absolutely zero chance

even if Piccolo does fuse with Kami, I don't think they can win against both of the androids.

[MaxZ]

Ideally, the Super Saiyans and Piccolo hold off the Androids until Tenshinhan gets into position and destroys the Androids with a Kikoho, or Krillin can use the Kienzan.

Problem is nothing ever works out like it's supposed to. Goku may very well die in an encounter with the Androids. Then the choice of what's next depends on them. If Tenshinhan and Krillin are taken down as well, then its up to Piccolo to fuse with Kami.

kikoho would be useless against the androids, it would only push them back, same as it did for Cell.

[Steven Bloodriver]

Assume Android 16 won't get involved since he could most likely effortlessly win by himself.

Let's say only the 3 SSJs and Piccolo are actually fighting with the other Z fighters playing distraction and going for sneak attacks, Eg: Krillin firing Kienzans and Tenshinhan firing Kikohos into the fray.

Do the 3 SSJs and Piccolo have what it takes to beat 17 and 18, or will they lose even with the aid of their allies?

If they still lose, what happens if Piccolo decides to preemptively fuse with Kami before the battle as a precaution? Can this turn the tides?

If this was Son Goku from after he had recovered from the Heart Virus (as thanks to a Zenkai, he would have been stronger than he was against Android 19 and when Super Saiyan Vegeta had fought 18) and Piccolo after he had fused with Kami (as with his weighted clothing removed, he would have been somewhat more of a match for Android 17), then the Z Fighters would have had won against the two Cyborgs with very little difficulty.

But even with Goku with them in the actual scenario, it would have taken a real miracle for the Z Fighters to have won against both Number 17 and 18. As only something akin to a rage boost from the Saiyans or Goku absorbing his son and friends' power like how he did against Broly would have been enough to let them win against 17 and 18.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Ideally, the Super Saiyans and Piccolo hold off the Androids until Tenshinhan gets into position and destroys the Androids with a Kikoho, or Krillin can use the Kienzan.

Problem is nothing ever works out like it's supposed to. Goku may very well die in an encounter with the Androids. Then the choice of what's next depends on them. If Tenshinhan and Krillin are taken down as well, then its up to Piccolo to fuse with Kami.

kikoho would be useless against the androids, it would only push them back, same as it did for Cell.

It could hold them in place so the other fighters could hit them with more lethal attacks like the Kienzan or the Makankosappo.

[FoolsGil]

Ideally, the Super Saiyans and Piccolo hold off the Androids until Tenshinhan gets into position and destroys the Androids with a Kikoho, or Krillin can use the Kienzan.

Problem is nothing ever works out like it's supposed to. Goku may very well die in an encounter with the Androids. Then the choice of what's next depends on them. If Tenshinhan and Krillin are taken down as well, then its up to Piccolo to fuse with Kami.

kikoho would be useless against the androids, it would only push them back, same as it did for Cell.

The Kikoho is not a kiai. If it was just a standard kiai, why did Tenshinhan warn Goku to dodge the attack in the 22nd Budokai? Why did he use it as his final attack against Nappa or even use it a fight to the death instead of something that could injure if not kill? Why would everyone talk about how destructive it is and worry about Tien dying if it's nothing but a measly kiai?

The reason why it pushed back Cell is because of power levels. If the attack was something different, or if Tenshinhan was any weaker, Cell would have went through the attack. It's not a kiai, it's an energy attack that if it could push back Cell with his power, can and would do far more to the Androids

[TheUltimateNinja]

Ideally, the Super Saiyans and Piccolo hold off the Androids until Tenshinhan gets into position and destroys the Androids with a Kikoho, or Krillin can use the Kienzan.

Problem is nothing ever works out like it's supposed to. Goku may very well die in an encounter with the Androids. Then the choice of what's next depends on them. If Tenshinhan and Krillin are taken down as well, then its up to Piccolo to fuse with Kami.

kikoho would be useless against the androids, it would only push them back, same as it did for Cell.

The Kikoho is not a kiai. If it was just a standard kiai, why did Tenshinhan warn Goku to dodge the attack in the 22nd Budokai? Why did he use it as his final attack against Nappa or even use it a fight to the death instead of something that could injure if not kill? Why would everyone talk about how destructive it is and worry about Tien dying if it's nothing but a measly kiai?

The reason why it pushed back Cell is because of power levels. If the attack was something different, or if Tenshinhan was any weaker, Cell would have went through the attack. It's not a kiai, it's an energy attack that if it could push back Cell with his power, can and would do far more to the Androids

While it's definitely more powerful than lots of other attacks, I'd say it's still not nearly enough to bridge the gap between Tenshinhan and Cell, and the Kikoho's real specialty is concussive force. I'd say it's something like this:

Kamehameha:
Power: 2
Concussive force: 2

Kikoho:
Power: 4
Concussive force: 10

Shin Kikoho:
Power: 10
Concussive force: 100

[nickzambuto]

They would need to fight perfectly and overcome their weaknesses in order to stand a chance. For example, I don't think Vegeta lost quite as hard to 18 as some people make it out to be. In the manga, he was actually trading blows and putting her on the defensive for a bit. Being a far superior warrior definitely helps, I think it was mostly 18's endless stamina that allowed her to ultimately gain the advantage, and therefore if Vegeta had worked together with Kakarot, the two Super Saiyans would have undoubtedly been able to overwhelm 18 with tactics and combined power. It might be non canon, but look at the way they were able to take Meta Cooler just by working together. Look at the way they fought inside Boo. Even in canon, Whis stated they would EASILY defeat Golden Freeza just by working together, and the gap between (full energy) Golden Freeza and the Saiyans is probably close to equivalent the gap between the Saiyans and 18. It's clear that Goku and Vegeta make a positively phenomenal team.

Trunks and Vegeta wouldn't have been enough, I believe Trunks was a LOT weaker than his father since he seemed to be weaker than Goku three years prior (getting blocked by a finger and endlessly praising Goku as even better than he imagined) and while Goku had trained and improved for three years, Trunks stayed the same as he simply time traveled, widening the gap further. That's why Vegeta actually had a fight with 18 while Trunks was just fodder.

So it would take Vegeta and Goku to beat 18, nothing short (other than a massive team up of Vegeta, Trunks, Picccolo, Krillin, and Ten. That would get the job done, as 17 himself admitted. But that would leave Goku alone with 17, and since Kakarot was slightly weaker than Vegeta and 17 was slightly stronger than 18, I don't see Goku being able to survive long if 17 wants the battle to end, which he will if he realizes his sister needs help). Basically, the two strongest guys working to overwhelm the weaker opponent as quickly as possible while the rest of the team desperately struggle, suffer, sacrifice, and spam Kikohos/Kienzans/Makankosphagettiwhateverspecialbeamcanons just to hold back 17 is the best strategy, and I think they could do it. But again, they would have to fight perfectly.

The real problem is WOULD they do it. Even current Vegeta refuses to work with Goku unless the lives of his family are on the line. Androids arc Vegeta didn't even want to work with Trunks, so he'd probably choose death before working with Kakarot.

[Zillamon51]

The problem with these "what-ifs" is everyone plays coach, figuring out ways the protagonists could win, if they all worked together and fought flawlessly. But the actual characters in the actual show never do that.

Goku and Vegeta would not work together at this point in the series. It's far more likely Vegeta's arrogance and Saiyan pride would get the best of him. He'd be all like, "I'LL TAKE THEM MYSELF!," rush in, and be incapacitated quickly if the Androids either take the group seriously, or just don't feel like playing. Krillin would be hesitant to go all-out against 18. There's no way in hell he's just going to slice her up like Michael Myers with Destructo Discs. And how would the more noble members of the group react if the Androids start taking hostages? If 17 grabs Gohan from behind and threatens to snap his neck, at least three of the big hitters (Goku, Piccollo, and Trunks) are immediately paralyzed. Or the Androids could avoid the big guns (the SSJs), and quickly one-shot all of the others from Krillin (they better not even bring Yamcha lol) up through Piccollo. If you're going to coach one side, coach the other as well.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The problem with these "what-ifs" is everyone plays coach, figuring out ways the protagonists could win, if they all worked together and fought flawlessly. But the actual characters in the actual show never do that.

Goku and Vegeta would not work together at this point in the series. It's far more likely Vegeta's arrogance and Saiyan pride would get the best of him. He'd be all like, "I'LL TAKE THEM MYSELF!," rush in, and be incapacitated quickly if the Androids either take the group seriously, or just don't feel like playing. Krillin would be hesitant to go all-out against 18. There's no way in hell he's just going to slice her up like Michael Myers with Destructo Discs. And how would the more noble members of the group react if the Androids start taking hostages? If 17 grabs Gohan from behind and threatens to snap his neck, at least three of the big hitters (Goku, Piccollo, and Trunks) are immediately paralyzed. Or the Androids could avoid the big guns (the SSJs), and quickly one-shot all of the others from Krillin (they better not even bring Yamcha lol) up through Piccollo. If you're going to coach one side, coach the other as well.

If you coach both sides to use optimal strategies, I think the Z fighters still come out on top, especially with their unique abilities like the Shunkan Ido and Taiyoken.

First of all, Gohan wouldn't even be there since he has no attacks that can damage the androids.

Both Vegeta and a healthy Goku are fast enough to react to the androids' attacks, so they could save the weaker Z fighters from getting taken out, especially Goku with his Shunkan Ido.

Trunks is a strange case, because he's strong enough to put up at a somewhat decent fight but not strong enough to do any real damage, so he can take the role of protecting the weaker Z fighters.

Goku could then use the Taiyoken to blind the androids, and Tenshinhan could Kikoho them into the ground and immobilize them, thereby allowing Piccolo and Krillin to finish the job. Even if Krillin hesitates to attack 18, he could still kill 17 with a Kienzan and then Piccolo could take 18 out with a Makankosappo.

[Draconic]

The only one unwilling to fight with the others would be Vegeta butas long as the others play their cards well, he won't prove much of an annoyance, especially if he gets overwhelmed. As seen against Raditz and Nappa the rest of the guys have no problem working together. Also, regarding Krillin hesitating against 18, maybe at first, but if the Androids show they're serious in killing everybody, he isn't going to hold back. If either of his friends get hurt he's going to go ballistic, like against the Saibaimen.