How do fusion multipliers work?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Is it possible that they're not even consistent? I think there's definitely a lot pointing to changing multipliers in the manga.

Potara seems to rely on things like rivalry, which is why Vegetto came out so strong whereas Kibitoshin was quite weak.

Fusion dance seems to be affected by mastery of the dance, since after the boys practiced it in the RoSAT Gotenks became a lot more powerful even though the boys themselves didn't increase in power all that much.

Also, what do you think the multipliers are for the following: Vegetto, Gotenks (Pre) & Gotenks (Post)? And where would you place them in terms of power?

[Rubens]

From my point of view, there's no set formula for fusions because they work different for each pair of characters and from different sources. If you're calculating say, Vegetto, just estimate his power considering a unique formula for him.

I think there's definitely a lot pointing to changing multipliers in the manga.

The manga doesn't point out multipliers at all, whatever the case (only exceptions are oozaru and kaio-ken).

[TheUltimateNinja]

From my point of view, there's no set formula for fusions because they work different for each pair of characters and from different sources. If you're calculating say, Vegetto, just estimate his power considering a unique formula for him.

I think there's definitely a lot pointing to changing multipliers in the manga.

The manga doesn't point out multipliers at all, whatever the case (only exceptions are oozaru and kaio-ken).

It's simple deduction, obviously it's not simply adding their powers together since Goten +Trunks isn't nearly enough to stand up to Buu and Goku + Vegeta would get thrashed by Buuhan, so obviously there's a multiplier that increases their combined power.

[theherodjl]

It may have to do with any of the following:
- The current level of the fusee's strength
- Physical maturity/age
- Pre-existing potential or ability
- Race/Species
- Proficiency with fusion techniques
- Ki control
- A specific time or setting
- A result based on desire/necessity

The list could go on, all we know is that it isn't necessarily the same for everyone because Gotenks is considerably weaker than Vegetto & Gogeta.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It may have to do with any of the following:
- The current level of the fusee's strength
- Physical maturity/age
- Pre-existing potential or ability
- Race/Species
- Proficiency with fusion techniques
- Ki control
- A specific time or setting
- A result based on desire/necessity

The list could go on, all we know is that it isn't necessarily the same for everyone because Gotenks is considerably weaker than Vegetto & Gogeta.

It could be because Goten and Trunks are considerably weaker than Goku and Vegeta.

[theherodjl]

It could be because Goten and Trunks are considerably weaker than Goku and Vegeta.

The boys are weaker than their fathers but the power gap between Gotenks & Vegetto is too big to justify any statement that Goku or Vegeta are only a few fold stronger than their sons.
Going by the anime, Base Vegetto is more or less double SSJ3 Gotenks' strength which is a difference of 800:1 if we use the SEG's multiplier for SSJ3. Even manga Vegetto being noticeably weaker than his anime counterpart is a dozen times stronger than Gotenks.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It could be because Goten and Trunks are considerably weaker than Goku and Vegeta.

The boys are weaker than their fathers but the power gap between Gotenks & Vegetto is too big to justify any statement that Goku or Vegeta are only a few fold stronger than their sons.
Going by the anime, Base Vegetto is more or less double SSJ3 Gotenks' strength which is a difference of 800:1 if we use the SEG's multiplier for SSJ3. Even manga Vegetto being noticeably weaker than his anime counterpart is a dozen times stronger than Gotenks.

That's because Potara fusion is stated to be much better than the dance, given what we see in the movie Gogeta's multiplier could very well be the same as Gotenks'.

[theherodjl]

That's because Potara fusion is stated to be much better than the dance, given what we see in the movie Gogeta's multiplier could very well be the same as Gotenks'.

Rou Kaioshin does state that Vegetto is stronger than Boohan because he is a fusion of 2 of the 3 greatest masters in the universe when Kibitoshin wondered if it was because the Potara was far superior to the fusion dance.

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

Daiz 7 does state that the power of the potara is greater than fusion but Rou Kaioshin's statement seems to clash with this assessment somewhat, I guess the real reason why the potara is stronger is simply because it accounts for the power that Goku would need to restrain to match his power with Vegeta's for the fusion dance.
However like I said it could be another factor that may explain the power gap between Goten & Trunks vs Goku & Vegeta, it should be mentioned that SSJ Gogeta was quite a bit more powerful than Janemba who is stronger than Hirudegarn who is in-turn stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

[TheUltimateNinja]

That's because Potara fusion is stated to be much better than the dance, given what we see in the movie Gogeta's multiplier could very well be the same as Gotenks'.

Rou Kaioshin does state that Vegetto is stronger than Boohan because he is a fusion of 2 of the 3 greatest masters in the universe when Kibitoshin wondered if it was because the Potara was far superior to the fusion dance.

Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3
Context: as Vegetto beats up on Gohan-absorbed Boo
Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!”
Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.”

Daiz 7 does state that the power of the potara is greater than fusion but Rou Kaioshin's statement seems to clash with this assessment somewhat, I guess the real reason why the potara is stronger is simply because it accounts for the power that Goku would need to restrain to match his power with Vegeta's for the fusion dance.
However like I said it could be another factor that may explain the power gap between Goten & Trunks vs Goku & Vegeta, it should be mentioned that SSJ Gogeta was quite a bit more powerful than Janemba who is stronger than Hirudegarn who is in-turn stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

But before that, Rou Kaioshin tells Goku that Potara is a superior fusion and that if he uses it, he can easily beat Buu, besides, that line of his doesn't really contradict Potara being better than the dance. It seems to me that he's saying Goku and Vegeta's rivalry added even more power to the already powerful potara fusion.

Anyway, if you use a Fusion dance multiplier of (A + B) X 10 and assume Vegeta is in the same ballpark as Goku. SSJ Gogeta would be 1,000x stronger than Base Goku or 2.5x as strong as SSJ3 Goku, which leaves a decent gap for Gotenks, Hirudegarn and Janemba to fit in.

Something like this:
SSJ3 Goku: 4
SSJ3 Gotenks: 5.5
Hirudegarn: 6
Janemba: 6.5
SSJ Gogeta: 10

Also, without his sword I think Janemba would probably actually be weaker than Hirudegarn since his real power lies in his hax sword and magic.

[theherodjl]

But before that, Rou Kaioshin tells Goku that Potara is a superior fusion and that if he uses it, he can easily beat Buu, besides, that line of his doesn't really contradict Potara being better than the dance. It seems to me that he's saying Goku and Vegeta's rivalry added even more power to the already powerful potara fusion.

You have to remember that Rou Kaioshin initially made that comment when he thought Goku & Gohan were going to fuse thus why he was sure such a fusion would effortlessly destroy Bootenks, he says something a tad different for Goku & Vegeta however for a reason though. He doesn't actually say that there is any sort of 'rival boost' that is making the fusion exponentially greater than the dance because that is exactly what Kibitoshin thought but Rou Kaioshin felt the need to correct him on that, he just acknowledges that Goku & Vegeta are strong and that fusion between them through either method is going to make a great result but still not to the caliber of a hypothetical Gokhan.
Daiz 7 does still have a point but it's not because of the fan theory that by being rivals they become ridiculously stronger than the fusion dance just because.
If anything for every Vegetto that is a 10, every Gogeta would be a 9 if Goku & Vegeta were at the levels they were in the Boo saga.

Anyway, if you use a Fusion dance multiplier of (A + B) X 10 and assume Vegeta is in the same ballpark as Goku. SSJ Gogeta would be 1,000x stronger than Base Goku or 2.5x as strong as SSJ3 Goku, which leaves a decent gap for Gotenks, Hirudegarn and Janemba to fit in.

That's presuming the fusion dance multiplier for Gogeta is such a figure, I honestly think it is more like B^2 x 20.
Goku can be a 10 himself and Vegeta 9, thus SSJ Gogeta is 9,000x stronger than Base Vegeta. This seems to be in a ballpark not too far from the potara itself and it leaves even more room for any of Gotenks, Hirudegarn, and Janemba to fit in.

Something like this:
SSJ3 Goku: 4
SSJ3 Gotenks: 5.5
Hirudegarn: 6
Janemba: 6.5
SSJ Gogeta: 10

These figures are rather scrunched to make a better estimate for all of them, Gotenks is several times stronger than Goku to be able to defeat Super Boo who Goku requested fusion with Vegeta against, Hirudegarn defeated SSJ3 Gotenks with little effort, Janemba made for a much greater challenge for Goku than Hirudegarn AND the scene in which Janemba boosts his aura against Gogeta implies he didn't use his true power on Goku, and Gogeta defeated Janemba rather easily.
I'd put it down like this.
SSJ3 Goku: 4
SSJ3 Gotenks: 12
Hirudegarn: 24
Janemba: 30
SSJ Gogeta: 60

[TheUltimateNinja]

Snip.

Well, for me I never really viewed the gap between SSJ3 Goku and Gotenks/Super Buu as that large, by my power levels SSJ3 Goku would be 34 billion and Gotenks and Super Buu would both be at 48 billion, since as seen earlier in the series a gap of 25-30% is enough to completely dominate someone so I could see Goku realizing he stands no chance against someone with an advantage of over 40% over him, especially if he needs to use his inefficient SSJ3. This also explains how he reaches Gotenks' level of power in only a few years, since he only has to increase by power level by around 40% rather than multiply it.


Also, B^2 doesn't really work since the value changes depending on what unit of measurement you use. If B has a battle power of 1,000 B^2 would be 1,000,000, but if you use some other unit of measurement where 1 unit = 1,000 battle power, then B = 1 and 1^2 is still 1.

[DanielSSJ]

Is it possible that they're not even consistent? I think there's definitely a lot pointing to changing multipliers in the manga.

Potara seems to rely on things like rivalry, which is why Vegetto came out so strong whereas Kibitoshin was quite weak.

Fusion dance seems to be affected by mastery of the dance, since after the boys practiced it in the RoSAT Gotenks became a lot more powerful even though the boys themselves didn't increase in power all that much.

Also, what do you think the multipliers are for the following: Vegetto, Gotenks (Pre) & Gotenks (Post)? And where would you place them in terms of power?

Nothing is set in stone except for the, but I don't think any of the fusion methods have a set power boost, with the exception that a Fusion through the Metamorian method would have power greater than the sum of both parts. My head-canon is that it relies on a myriad of variables, such as comparative height, weight, power level, hidden potential, species, gender, hair color, eye color, skin color, age, body type, personality, genetics, intelligence, and a bunch of other seemingly inconsequential traits. In the case of the Fusion Dance, I would also add that the mastery of the fusion dance likely increases the power of the fusion.

Here are my fusion power levels, in units of millions:
Son Goku/Vegeta: 90
-- Super Saiyan: 4,500
-- Super Saiyan 2: 9,000
-- Super Saiyan 3 (Goku only, obviously): 36,000

Vegetto: 18,000
-- Super Saiyan: 900,000

Son Goten/Trunks: 15
-- Super Saiyan: 750
Room of Spirit and Time: 20
-- Super Saiyan: 1,000

Gotenks: 150
-- Super Saiyan: 7,500
Room of Spirit and Time: 300
-- Super Saiyan: 15,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 120,000