Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Understanding what it's about is not the same as being knowledgeable about it's overall quality. We can watch one episode of Battlestar Galactica and understand that it's a sci-fi show, with humans struggling to survive while being pursued by androids... but we wouldn't be very knowledgeable about the quality of the series just by watching a very small part of it.
BSG isn't strung together jokes. I've never seen BSG, but don't compare random jokes to a show with a plot. It's more like Family Guy which is a bunch of strung together jokes that aren't heavily dependent on continuity to get. There are some running jokes that are funnier if you've heard them before but it's mostly random jokes that don't take a whole lot of context to get. You can jump around from season to season and not miss anything. Watching even two episodes of the show is plenty to figure out whether you like it or not.
Be specific, what about DBZA is so heavily dependent on context that my not having seen it considerably changes my opinion? What is different? What specifically changed from early on that increased the quality of the humor?
Last edited by ABED on Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Kanassa wrote:It's less trying to convince him of DBZA's quality, and more trying to prove how asinine it is to judge a show as a whole after barely watching a fraction of it.
But in DBZA's case, he's right in saying that the show doesn't get better. The production value improves, I guess, but the rest is sedentary.
Whether he's right or not in the shows quality doesn't matter, the question of DBZA's quality is subjective and really isn't the point here. The point is, he's explaining the quality of the show overall when he's only see a fraction of it. Which is asinine to do. Yes, it's completely logical to look at a few episode and decide it isn't for you, but saying that a show is terrible from top to bottom when you have such a limited experience of it is ridiculous.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
ABED wrote:
It absolutely does because if you haven't read The Great Gatsby, but give an overall impression, you lack context to give any opinion. You don't know the plot, you don't know the characters. DBZA is a very specific example. It follows the series, so I have the context of plot and characters. I've also seen the dub and the Ocean dub. I know the context of the jokes they are going for and making fun of.
ABED wrote:BSG isn't strung together jokes. I've never seen BSG, but don't compare random jokes to a show with a plot. It's more like Family Guy which is a bunch of strung together jokes that aren't heavily dependent on continuity to get. There are some running jokes that are funnier if you've heard them before but it's mostly random jokes that don't take a whole lot of context to get. You can jump around from season to season and not miss anything. Watching even two episodes of the show is plenty to figure out whether you like it or not.
It doesn't matter what kind of content it is.
Even if it the content was just 100 random knock, knock jokes, if you didn't hear 95 of those jokes, just 5 of them, it wouldn't make sense for you to talk about all of them like you actually heard them. You would be literally assuming that the other 95 jokes would be exactly as funny or unfunny as the one you already heard.
The point is whether you are knowledgeable about the content or not, not what kind of content it is. And so, if I wanted to know about the overall quality of those 100 knock, knock jokes, would I care about what you had to say, or would I care more about someone who actually heard all the jokes had to say?
ABED wrote:
It absolutely does because if you haven't read The Great Gatsby, but give an overall impression, you lack context to give any opinion. You don't know the plot, you don't know the characters. DBZA is a very specific example. It follows the series, so I have the context of plot and characters. I've also seen the dub and the Ocean dub. I know the context of the jokes they are going for and making fun of.
It doesn't matter what kind of content it is.
Even if it the content was just 100 random knock, knock jokes, if you didn't hear 95 of those jokes, just 5 of them, it wouldn't make sense to talk about all of them like you actually heard them. You would be literally assuming that the other 95 jokes will be exactly as funny or unfunny as the one you already heard.
And so, if I wanted to know about the overall quality of those 100 knock, knock jokes, would I care about what you had to say, or would I care more about someone who actually heard all the jokes had to say?
Context matters and if I hear a bunch of knock knock jokes that I don't like, I can safely say I don't like that sort of joke. I don't find knock knock jokes funny as I can guess the punchline and humor is largely dependent on the unexpected. I don't need to hear every knock knock joke to know I don't like those jokes and don't think they are funny.
The point is, he's explaining the quality of the show overall when he's only see a fraction of it. Which is asinine to do. Yes, it's completely logical to look at a few episode and decide it isn't for you, but saying that a show is terrible from top to bottom when you have such a limited experience of it is ridiculous.
It's not if nothing changes. Again, did I just by happenstance see a bunch of random episodes from different parts of the series where quality was more or less identical? I got a random sampling of the show and logically deduced that I don't like it. You say my sample size is too small? Okay, give me a counter example.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote:Watching even two episodes of the show is plenty to figure out whether you like it or not.
This isn't what you're doing. You're making these broad statements about the whole show being horrible, yet you've seen little of it.
I don't like it because it's terrible. I don't want to see anymore of it because it's terrible. Link to a video of something in a later season you think is really funny or where the acting is supposedly really good. What specifically changed from earlier seasons?
I say it's horrible because it never changed. It's still the same sorts of lame jokes delivered horribly. This isn't a matter of percentages. If I have seen well over an hour of a show and not laughed one single time, I can say with complete confidence that I don't think it's a quality show.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
When people who are debating an unwinnable debate keep trying to get the last word instead of agreeing to disagree. I feel like I'm watching the "Namek blows up in five minutes" scenario play out in forum form.
I'm a cucumber, so don't put me in the pickle jar!
Pickle_Jar wrote: When people who are debating an unwinnable debate keep trying to get the last word instead of agreeing to disagree. I feel like I'm watching the "Namek blows up in five minutes" scenario play out in forum form.
Even debates based on facts are almost always "unwinnable". No side concedes and both usually go on believing what they always did.
I'm genuinely asking for fans of DBZA to be specific about what you think changed that made the show better from earlier seasons. With shows like Parks and Rec and Buffy and Supernatural, I can tell you very specifically what I think made those shows get better than their first seasons.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote:Context matters and if I hear a bunch of knock knock jokes that I don't like, I can safely say I don't like that sort of joke. I don't find knock knock jokes funny as I can guess the punchline and humor is largely dependent on the unexpected. I don't need to hear every knock knock joke to know I don't like those jokes and don't think they are funny.
Instead of understanding the point, you choose to lose yourself in just the example? Right...
The point is this, ABED: there's a bare minimum requirement for the opinions/reviews/impressions people should pay attention to. That bare minimum is being knowledgeable about what is being talked about. Paying attention to opinions/reviews/impressions who aren't even knowledgeable is not something I think people should do. I don't consider knowing 5% of what is being talked about to be knowledgeable. If you do, if you believe that someone is somehow knowledgeable in those conditions, that's purely on you.
Pickle_Jar wrote: When people who are debating an unwinnable debate keep trying to get the last word instead of agreeing to disagree. I feel like I'm watching the "Namek blows up in five minutes" scenario play out in forum form.
[spoiler][/spoiler]
I feel the same way. It's either getting the last word in or saying "Let's just end this already" instead of agreeing that people have differing opinions. That may not apply directly in this case, but the point stands. It's just back-and-forth instead of productive debates. Thankfully, that's only a chunk of the discussions here. Others are much more fruitful.
ABED wrote:Context matters and if I hear a bunch of knock knock jokes that I don't like, I can safely say I don't like that sort of joke. I don't find knock knock jokes funny as I can guess the punchline and humor is largely dependent on the unexpected. I don't need to hear every knock knock joke to know I don't like those jokes and don't think they are funny.
Instead of understanding the point, you choose to lose yourself in just the example? Right...
The point is this, ABED: there's a bare minimum requirement for the opinions/reviews/impressions people should pay attention to. That bare minimum is being knowledgeable about what is being talked about. Paying attention to opinions/reviews/impressions who aren't even knowledgeable is not something I think people should do. I don't consider knowing 5% of what is being talked about to be knowledgeable. If you do, if you believe that someone is somehow knowledgeable in those conditions, that's purely on you.
No, I didn't lose myself in the example. I know what I was trying to get across. I don't have to hear every knock knock joke to understand I don't like those sorts of jokes. In the case of DBZ Abridged, I don't need to see even most of it to safely say it doesn't get better as I saw 45 minutes with of footage in later arcs that didn't get better. Even if the jokes were somewhat clever, the delivery ruined them. You keep talking in broad terms but are never specific. You say I might be losing context for jokes, I say otherwise. I know the context.
I don't consider knowing 5% of what is being talked about to be knowledgeable.
I know more than that because I've already seen DB, that's most of the context I need.
It's just back-and-forth instead of productive debates.
What praytell is a productive debate, especially as it relates to DB of all things? I find this line of argument in this context to be asinine. If I wanted to have a productive debate, I wouldn't be discussing DB. And to the poster that asked what is my point, do any of us need a point on this forum beyond discussing DB?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote:No, I didn't lose myself in the example. I know what I was trying to get across. I don't have to hear every knock knock joke to understand I don't like those sorts of jokes. In the case of DBZ Abridged, I don't need to see even most of it to safely say it doesn't get better as I saw 45 minutes with of footage in later arcs that didn't get better. Even if the jokes were somewhat clever, the delivery ruined them. You keep talking in broad terms but are never specific. You say I might be losing context for jokes, I say otherwise. I know the context.
"So, you want to hear a joke about Dragon Ball?" "Nah, I heard a few before and I know Dragon Ball so I'm aware of its context, and so I can assume that it won't better than the other ones".
ABED wrote:No, I didn't lose myself in the example. I know what I was trying to get across. I don't have to hear every knock knock joke to understand I don't like those sorts of jokes. In the case of DBZ Abridged, I don't need to see even most of it to safely say it doesn't get better as I saw 45 minutes with of footage in later arcs that didn't get better. Even if the jokes were somewhat clever, the delivery ruined them. You keep talking in broad terms but are never specific. You say I might be losing context for jokes, I say otherwise. I know the context.
"So, you want to hear a joke about Dragon Ball?" "Nah, I heard a few before and I know Dragon Ball so I'm aware of its context, and so I can assume that it won't better than the other ones".
That's a bad analogy. Knock, knock jokes are very specific. It's a specific set up and punchline and you can usually see the joke coming from a mile away. DB jokes is so broad that it can mean anything. I've seen all of DB, so I have plenty of context for Abridged. Much of the issue isn't even the jokes themselves, it's the terrible delivery.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote:What praytell is a productive debate, especially as it relates to DB of all things?
Countering arguments with actual arguments, instead of calling something nonsensical and dropping parts of the conversation bit by bit, for starters. And, of course, not ignoring large portions of posts (read: taking out of context) to only address one point that's irrelevant to the discussion, which I'm guilty of. Those are just a couple examples, though.
ABED wrote:No, I didn't lose myself in the example. I know what I was trying to get across. I don't have to hear every knock knock joke to understand I don't like those sorts of jokes. In the case of DBZ Abridged, I don't need to see even most of it to safely say it doesn't get better as I saw 45 minutes with of footage in later arcs that didn't get better. Even if the jokes were somewhat clever, the delivery ruined them. You keep talking in broad terms but are never specific. You say I might be losing context for jokes, I say otherwise. I know the context.
"So, you want to hear a joke about Dragon Ball?" "Nah, I heard a few before and I know Dragon Ball so I'm aware of its context, and so I can assume that it won't better than the other ones".
That's a bad analogy. Knock, knock jokes are very specific. It's a specific set up and punchline and you can usually see the joke coming from a mile away. DB jokes is so broad that it can mean anything. I've seen all of DB, so I have plenty of context for Abridged. Much of the issue isn't even the jokes themselves, it's the terrible delivery.
ABED wrote:What praytell is a productive debate, especially as it relates to DB of all things?
Countering arguments with actual arguments, instead of calling something nonsensical and dropping parts of the conversation bit by bit, for starters. And, of course, not ignoring large portions of posts (read: taking out of context) to only address one point that's irrelevant to the discussion, which I'm guilty of. Those are just a couple examples, though.
I have no interest in countering everything bit by bit. That would be too time consuming so I zero in on what I think is essential and I do give actual arguments, you just disagree with them. My counter to you is you don't give me specific counter examples, you just speak in broad terms. You say the jokes are different, but never give an example of the type of different jokes. Someone said I was objectively wrong that DBZA isn't a bunch of silly voices, but doesn't even link to a video.
What of your arguments did I take out of context?
So says your 5% experience with it.
More than 5% actually. I've seen all of DB, so I have the context. Also, 5% of hours worth of footage is plenty. I've spent over an hour watching the show and that's plenty to say I think it's awful. If in all that time I haven't as much as chuckled once, I won't ever find it funny. There's a nearly zero percent chance that all the funny stuff is in the material I haven't seen.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
ABED wrote:What of your arguments did I take out of context?
None. I was speaking (or writing, I guess) in general terms.
I suppose it's about time to give something to the thread myself: When people overblow Zamasu's superiority complex, especially using "ningen" in "normal" conversations.
Anime Kitten wrote:When people overblow Zamasu's superiority complex
It's funny too, because Zamasu's over-the-top behavior wasn't present for most of the arc. Aside from Rose's debut, it didn't come into play until Episode 61, and lasted all of 5 episodes (if that). It was tacked on at the last minute, hardly a core piece of Zamasu's personality.
The fact that people CANNOT accept that someone doesnt like DBZA. I really dont get it. I get the appeal and I do like DBZA but GOD people arent this passionate about anything else. Some people dont like DBZA? They are CLEARLY in the wrong, because art isnt subjective. They MUST watch every episode and movie to say an opinion about it. GOD. Do people genuinely think ABED's going to turn around and become a fan if he watches every episode? No! And what if he watches every episode and hates it still, what are you going to do then?
Spoiler:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Gog wrote:The cell saga/android saga is the worst thing Akira Toriyama ever made. And nothing has ever actually managed to come close to it, after it. Even the terrible asspulls in the FT saga, weren't as bad as that. But of course this is all my opinion.
You've just made a new best friend.
Marz wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm
"Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"
This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same.
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:The fact that people CANNOT accept that someone doesnt like DBZA. I really dont get it. I get the appeal and I do like DBZA but GOD people arent this passionate about anything else. Some people dont like DBZA? They are CLEARLY in the wrong, because art isnt subjective. They MUST watch every episode and movie to say an opinion about it. GOD. Do people genuinely think ABED's going to turn around and become a fan if he watches every episode? No! And what if he watches every episode and hates it still, what are you going to do then?
No, people are arguing against ABED as he's calling the whole entire show terrible, even though he's seen such a tiny percentage of it. It's fine if he doesn't enjoy it. But his review of the show mean's little when he's hardly seen any of it. It's the equivalent of me calling GT crap when I've only seen six minutes of the very first episode. You just cannot take my statement of the entirety of GT being garbage when I've seen less than seven minutes of it.
But regardless, ABED doesn't have to enjoy it.
Last edited by Gog on Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When people who are debating an unwinnable debate keep trying to get the last word instead of agreeing to disagree. I feel like I'm watching the "Namek blows up in five minutes" scenario play out in forum form. 
[/spoiler]
