How come people want to rush the arc now?

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by ChaosLordBrandon » Wed May 10, 2017 12:46 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Forte224 wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Instead of the like U6 arc where the fighters from U6 were just tossed in front of us at the tournament, we at least now will know who some of the characters are, what their background is etc.
Which was fine I thought. It was in the spirit of the old tournaments in DB where you had these challengers in front of you but didn't know much about them, increasing your anticipation. I'm glad we're getting backstory glimpses for this arc though because of the stakes involved.

I'm not really rooting for U7 as much as I normally would, because these universes are all full of good people for the most part and don't deserve destruction; it's cool that the show is making me care about them (though I honestly don't think it'll end with many or even any of the universes being destroyed)
I guess you could look at it that way too. We are not gonna get introduced to all 70 new fighters so for some that will stay in tact.
Its 65 new fighters.

and no universe will be destroyed and if they do get destroyed, Goku will fix it.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Ajay » Wed May 10, 2017 1:24 pm

ChaosLordBrandon wrote:The thing I don't get is how come people complained about Champa and Goku Black being way to fast, if they think this current arc pacing is bad?
I can't speak for everyone, of course, but for me, it's less about how many episodes there are, but more about what they contain. How much content within the episode is actually relevant, for example?

My primary issue with this arc is that many of these episodes feel entirely unnecessary -- or at least, the drama doesn't feel believable. I would have felt just as compelled by #17's decision to join had it spawned from the conversation about his family, and Goku had simply suggested the Goten and Trunks' solution then and there. Instead we had to sit through an arduous episode about space poachers that was ultimately inconsequential, or could have easily been written around. It was an unnecessary interruption to a touching moment.

Frankly, the content of many of these recruitment episodes feels lacking to me; they don't seem like they're building to a tournament with real stakes. Goku mentions them, people freak out, maybe he's scolded a little, but... that's kind of it. There's nothing there to really reiterate or establish the real threat at hand here. I hate throwing my own ideas out there since it's not my place to tell people how to write their own story, but I would have been much more interested in seeing everyone training in fear of what's to come, similar to the Saiyan arc. I'd have liked to have seen them focus on what the other universes were experiencing so that when the tournament begins, there's at least a moral dilemma there for both the characters and the audience. Invest me in the worlds that are also under threat!

Because they're not doing that, because they're just tediously taking Goku around to recruit people, I'm just very... bored. I'd rather we just get to the tournament already if this is the route we're going down. I think a lot of people feel this way, which is why this general feeling of, "God, just start already!" is starting to emerge.

For me, this is a stark contrast to the Champa arc where I felt as though we began things immediately, never really focused on the build-up in any meaningful way, then blew through a bunch of tensionless matches until the final fights with Hit. I don't think the Future Trunks arc is overly fast, but the way the story is structured is problematic. Moments that could have done with more time are rushed over, while uninteresting sections are dragged out. This means that the first half of the arc is rushed through, while the second half meanders through little content, dragging it out until the final fight where it then decides to blast through things once again. This is again at odds with the movie adaptations that all have their own unique set of issues.

I don't think feeling differently about each arc is hypocritical as I get the feeling you're implying. These are all different types of stories that necessitate a different pace, so it's natural that opinions aren't going to align from arc to arc.
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Cipher » Wed May 10, 2017 2:36 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:People aren't used to having to wait a week for the newest Dragon Ball episode. I'm willing to bet that most of these complainers are Toonami people.
I've been a "complainer" in this regard.

It's because we already know, let alone from spoilers, but from the show's own intro and the fundamental relationship between these characters, that their recruitment is a foregone conclusion. With the exception of outliers like #17, it's textbook fluff with enough manufactured drama to fill a twenty-minute slot. I'm looking forward to the story moving again, when real change can occur -- or, if we're to have fun fluff, to have it centered around plots where the resolution isn't a foregone conclusion.

Anything really worthwhile here could have been covered tidily in two episodes: Piccolo imparting a lesson to Gohan could have taken half an episode; Goku's conversation with #17 could have taken half an episode. Any necessary remaining setup could have occurred in a second. There's no compelling reason, narratively, to expand things beyond that.
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Draconic » Wed May 10, 2017 2:46 pm

Cipher wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:People aren't used to having to wait a week for the newest Dragon Ball episode. I'm willing to bet that most of these complainers are Toonami people.
I've been a "complainer" in this regard.

It's because we already know, let alone from spoilers, but from the show's own intro and the fundamental relationship between these characters, that their recruitment is a foregone conclusion. With the exception of outliers like #17, it's textbook fluff with enough manufactured drama to fill a twenty-minute slot. I'm looking forward to the story moving again, when real change can occur -- or, if we're to have fun fluff, to have it centered around plots where the resolution isn't a foregone conclusion.
To add to this, it doesn't help that pretty much everybody declines at first and they have to come up with a contrived reason for them to join. It does come out unnatural.

That said I have no problem with the pacing yet. Depends on how the Tournament plays out.
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Cipher » Wed May 10, 2017 3:02 pm

Draconic wrote:To add to this, it doesn't help that pretty much everybody declines at first and they have to come up with a contrived reason for them to join. It does come out unnatural.
Indeed. When the line-up was revealed, my thought wasn't, "Wow! I can't wait to see how each of these characters will be convinced to join!" (And I want everyone to be deeply honest about whether that was something they thought, because that's part of how you determine whether a scene in fiction is worthwhile.) It was, "Wow! I can't wait to see how these characters will impact and be impacted by the story once they're involved!"

Like, why would Kuririn/#18/Tenshinhan/Kame-Sennin join? Why not just because Goku asked them? Even on a character-level, this isn't the interesting part of the story; it's certainly not an element that seemed like it demanded explanation (or forced conflict).

Also, guys, "I don't care if the universe is erased/I can't leave my island because it's being targeted by poachers every minute of every day/I can't take a day off from the dojo" are the stupidest character motivations in the world.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by funrush » Wed May 10, 2017 3:30 pm

For me it feels like a good chunk of these recruitment episodes have been filler. The U6 stuff is fine, but the U7 stuff feels like it's taking way longer than it should. For example, this newest episode could have been done in like 5 minutes, but they had to put in the filler villain and the mind control stuff.

More character stuff is great, but I just get the impression they're stalling.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Wed May 10, 2017 3:41 pm

While I've expressed being satisfied with the pacing of these episodes and have welcomed the spotlight given to certain under-utilized characters, I neglected to add that I feel that the potential for stories/character building during this time hasn't been taken advantage of. I mean things like random space poachers and over-emphasis of Kuririn's PTSD either shouldn't have happened or should've been dialed down. There are so many other possibilities and directions that the writer's could've gone in that would've been more beneficial to the narrative and reminded the audience of what these characters are bringing as representatives of U7 -- all while reaching the same conclusions within those respective episodes.

So, with that in mind, I get why there may be complaints about the pacing/lackluster delivery of content and that many would rather "let the games begin". And, as has been mentioned, having spoilers week-to-week is irresistibly tempting to want to jump right on ahead. I mean, who isn't intrigued by the tsunami of discussions to be had when it's time for ::Kale:: :o to step up to the plate...? This tournament is going to be fun. Execution not withstanding...

Or, what Ajay and Cipher said. :D
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Draconic » Wed May 10, 2017 3:43 pm

Cipher wrote:
Draconic wrote:To add to this, it doesn't help that pretty much everybody declines at first and they have to come up with a contrived reason for them to join. It does come out unnatural.
Also, guys, "I don't care if the universe is erased/I can't leave my island because it's being targeted by poachers every minute of every day/I can't take a day off from the dojo" are the stupidest character motivations in the world.
With 17 I guess it kinda works, since he always had kinda of a nihilistic attitude (you don't start terrorizing cities for fun if you don't) and the island being something he cares about could take precedence to that, but Tenshinhan really has no excuse.
Of course, taking into account that the Tournament is short as piss, throws a big dent into that, no matter how you spin it.
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Wed May 10, 2017 3:50 pm

Draconic wrote:
Cipher wrote:
Draconic wrote:To add to this, it doesn't help that pretty much everybody declines at first and they have to come up with a contrived reason for them to join. It does come out unnatural.
Also, guys, "I don't care if the universe is erased/I can't leave my island because it's being targeted by poachers every minute of every day/I can't take a day off from the dojo" are the stupidest character motivations in the world.
With 17 I guess it kinda works, since he always had kinda of a nihilistic attitude (you don't start terrorizing cities for fun if you don't) and the island being something he cares about could take precedence to that, but Tenshinhan really has no excuse.
Of course, taking into account that the Tournament is short as piss, throws a big dent into that, no matter how you spin it.
Seriously...whether its 48 minutes or hours or whatever who couldnt spare that time for the fate of their universe.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by ChaosLordBrandon » Wed May 10, 2017 4:03 pm

Does Tenshinhan even know about the univereses being destroyed? And 17 didn't even find out until of very end of his two parter episodes, first episode.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by perucho1990 » Wed May 10, 2017 4:06 pm

funrush wrote:For me it feels like a good chunk of these recruitment episodes have been filler. The U6 stuff is fine, but the U7 stuff feels like it's taking way longer than it should. For example, this newest episode could have been done in like 5 minutes, but they had to put in the filler villain and the mind control stuff.

More character stuff is great, but I just get the impression they're stalling.
I actually agree with this, U6 deserves to have more than just 1-2 mins of screen time per episode I mean Isnt U6 supposed to be the deuteragonist of this arc? If Toei wanted to pad the episodes why not give the spotlight to the U6 fighters, or even get more stuff about Universe 11/Pride Troopers

For episode 89, the Yurin stuff shouldve been at most half of the episode, the other half shouldve been dedicated to Cabba recruiting Caulifla.

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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by ChaosLordBrandon » Wed May 10, 2017 4:08 pm

perucho1990 wrote:
funrush wrote:For me it feels like a good chunk of these recruitment episodes have been filler. The U6 stuff is fine, but the U7 stuff feels like it's taking way longer than it should. For example, this newest episode could have been done in like 5 minutes, but they had to put in the filler villain and the mind control stuff.

More character stuff is great, but I just get the impression they're stalling.
I actually agree with this, U6 deserves to have more than just 1-2 mins of screen time per episode I mean Isnt U6 supposed to be the deuteragonist of this arc? If Toei wanted to pad the episodes why not give the spotlight to the U6 fighters, or even get more stuff about Universe 11/Pride Troopers

For episode 89, the Yurin stuff shouldve been at most half of the episode, the other half shouldve been dedicated to Cabba recruiting Caulifla.[/quote]
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by Boo Machine » Wed May 10, 2017 4:10 pm

ChaosLordBrandon wrote:Does Tenshinhan even know about the univereses being destroyed? And 17 didn't even find out until of very end of his two parter episodes, first episode.
Nope, Tenshinhan thinks it's just a regular ass tournament with prize money and everything. Which is why I don't blame him for not wanting to join at first. If he doesn't know the risks and he doesn't feel like joining then that's that. He just doesn't feel like it. If he knew the risks then I'd imagine he would join right away. After all his is joining now to rebuild his dinky little town. Of course he would fight to save the world. That's why he was there when Freeza showed up.

I think these episodes would be easier to sit through if it focused on universes like 6, and 11 more. Maybe even 9 and 10. We get little scenes here and there but getting more build up for other universes would likely be more exciting. Look how much people are loving the U6 saiyans already and they haven't even done anything yet. I'm enjoying the episodes aside from a couple, but they could use a little more.
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Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

Post by The gr » Wed May 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Like Ajay Said these episodes are unnecessary simply the fact Goku didn't told the real cause of the Top is utterly destroying these episodes, there's no perspective from the other Universe, that means less screentime for the figthers from the other Universe
    And these eps are kinda boring because there's no drama,we know there will be recruited, is just padding honestly, and when they tried to do drama they fail miserably,the Tien and poachers episode and is making the arc difficult to watch
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    Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

    Post by Chuquita » Wed May 10, 2017 4:28 pm

    I think the length of the tournament itself is going to best help me decide if this arc and Toei are stalling as much as I think they are. Unfortunately that's one of those things I won't know until the arc's over.

    Right now I'm not that bothered by it, but that's because I'm not that excited for the tournament itself; my anticipation now lies in wondering what the arc that comes after this one will be about and how far into the future they'll time-skip after this current arc is over.

    Harder to get excited for supporting character stuff (like Caulifla and Kale; even though I like them both so far) while the fate of characters in the main cast are still in limbo.
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    Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

    Post by ChaosLordBrandon » Wed May 10, 2017 4:37 pm

    The gr wrote:Like Ajay Said these episodes are unnecessary simply the fact Goku didn't told the real cause of the Top is utterly destroying these episodes, there's no perspective from the other Universe, that means less screentime for the figthers from the other Universe
      And these eps are kinda boring because there's no drama,we know there will be recruited, is just padding honestly, and when they tried to do drama they fail miserably,the Tien and poachers episode and is making the arc difficult to watch
      But there is perspective from the other universes the prides troopers almost got more half a episode focused on them.

      and the upcoming episode, shows universe 10 so I don't understand this point about not showing other universes before the tournament starts when they are showing them.

      the past tournament arcs in db didn't even show one bit of the fighters before the arc besides Tien,Videl and the pokemon and that's it.

      This is making me wonder how did people here get through DBZ? or the manga for Naruto,Bleach and One Piece. Naruto had big droughts in times before things got moving again many times, and One Piece has doing that since it's first chapter. It was even until three chapters ago in the current arc that main event is happening, which is the wedding.

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      Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

      Post by The gr » Wed May 10, 2017 4:48 pm

      ChaosLordBrandon wrote:
      The gr wrote:Like Ajay Said these episodes are unnecessary simply the fact Goku didn't told the real cause of the Top is utterly destroying these episodes, there's no perspective from the other Universe, that means less screentime for the figthers from the other Universe
        And these eps are kinda boring because there's no drama,we know there will be recruited, is just padding honestly, and when they tried to do drama they fail miserably,the Tien and poachers episode and is making the arc difficult to watch
        But there is perspective from the other universes the prides troopers almost got more half a episode focused on them.

        and the upcoming episode, shows universe 10 so I don't understand this point about not showing other universes before the tournament starts when they are showing them.

        the past tournament arcs in db didn't even show one bit of the fighters before the arc besides Tien,Videl and the pokemon and that's it.
        Still it wasn't that much screentime,we don't know who's jiren yet, despite being the big bad, next week better make up mind and focus on gowasu and his figthers, because we need to know them
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        Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

        Post by perucho1990 » Wed May 10, 2017 4:50 pm

        ChaosLordBrandon wrote: Who said this? Nobody who works at toei has said this or toyo.
        Champa has been getting the most screentime out of the Hakaishins aside from Beerus, he collected the SDBs offscreen which they are now on Daishinkan possession, and we have also how Kale, Cabba and Frost look important in the opening as much as the Pride Troopers :think:

        They couldve done the recruitment episodes better like first half of the episode: Goku recruits x fighter, 2nd half of the episode: Non Universe 7 stuff, and so on, you build the ToP like its a big deal, we would get to know more about the other Universes and their fighters.

        There is potential in this arc like the U6 Saiyans; Caulifla, Kale, Cabba could be a fun trio, Toei couldve also shown where in the world is Frost, Hit training, Botamo and Magetta whereabouts.

        If they want gags, why not have Helles fall in love with a U7 fighter non named Goku(idk like 17 or Vegeta, who look handsome), I know people will complain Toei is reclying the Luffy/Hancock gag, but thats Toei, they like to recycle stuff from their own shows.

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        Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

        Post by ChaosLordBrandon » Wed May 10, 2017 5:03 pm

        The past Tournament arc in didn't even show one bit of the fighters outside of the main cast and like the only people did do it for was the main foe which was just Tien.

        You could write the pokemon out and the past tournaments would barely change.

        Giran,Ranfan,Bacterian,Invisible Man,Fangs, Bandages,Spike,Pamput,Man wolf had zero real character at all and weren't even brought up again. Magetta has been more important than they all were. he actually appeared again and was semi important i the baseball episode after the tournament he was first shown up in was over, and he will be in this one.

        I wonder how people would rate the old tournaments today with out nostalgia very much now. :think:
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        Re: How come people want to rush the arc now?

        Post by MagmonKai » Wed May 10, 2017 5:05 pm

        I want this arc to last all year. I think once we have all of our guys recruited, they should go back and do the same thing from each participating universes' perspective. Then have the tournament be the penultimate event at the end.

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