Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

cos·mos1
ˈkäzməs,ˈkäzˌmōs,ˈkäzˌmäs/Submit
noun
the universe seen as a well-ordered whole.

Every dictionary employs multiple uses of this term (some of which mention a "universe" or a larger "world") and colloquially the word was never necessarily restricted to a universe. We can argue over semantics all day but my point still remains that Zamasu threatening to destroy Goku's galaxy doesn't necessarily mean his maximum power only extended to galaxy level outputs. Toyotaro's point was just to emphasize how far Zamasu was willing to go to wipe out his enemies in that situation.

You said he was threatening Goku's galaxy. Usually when you say something like that is because they care about it, like saying he threatened Goku's family because Goku cares about his family.

No, that just meant I'm specifying Goku's home galaxy. Nothing more, nothing less. You just completely misinterpreted my point.

The anime tends to hype up certain things and some things are made up by them. Like Trunks and future Zamasu fighting on god levels when they were clearly presented as Buu saga tier in the manga. You can't just say the anime and the manga are the same in every regard when they clearly aren't. And the elder kai said Buu would destroy the universe at this rate as well so it doesn't prove much. I originally though SSG Goku may be universe level but it seems they really didn't go in that direction and it is highly possible the writers though SSG Goku was still going to be 60% of Beerus, hence Beerus saying he used 10% of his power on Vegeta. If Beerus is universe level it is logical to think that SSG Goku would be about universe level too if he was 60%, but they decided to retcon that later, so they may of also retconned SSG's power. He still can threaten the universe and can destroy it probably relatively quickly, but I definitely don't think initial SSG could of one shot it.

This argument is frankly incohesive and all over the place. First you're claiming that the anime isn't the same as the manga on the basis of Trunks and future Zamasu fighting on a higher level in the anime even though this was never directly implied at all, then you proceed to go in a seemingly different direction by claiming that they retconned SSG Goku's strength based on numerical values that were given in an interview related to the BoG film, not Super.

Nobody's arguing that SSG Goku could one-shot the universe and I've made that clear since the beginning of the whole discussion. He clearly outstrips galaxy level by leaps and bounds though, otherwise the dialogue would have compared him to a galaxy instead of the universe that he was compared to. He's obviously far above that level of power, this shouldn't even really be a debate.

[Bullza]

So was Kafla using LSSJ or ordinary SSJ before going SSJ2. I thought that LSSJ was supposed to be a bigger boost than than SSJ2 but it does not seem like that is the case.

I'd say she was using the same Super Saiyan that Kale was using which was extra special because her Super Saiyan was just the LSSJ power under control. I don't see why Kale couldn't have also gone Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 on top of that power.

So while Base Vegito and Base Kefla would probably be about equal. Super Saiyan Kefla would likely have been stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito.

Just to clear something up, I think this episode only implies that Kelfa's full power SS2 level is in the same league as Goku's Kaioken X20 as per Piccolo's guess.

I don't think she was supposed to be that weak. She was powerful enough that Roshi said that if her final attack had hit Goku it would have killed him and that was a stronger Ultra Instinct Goku than the one before.

[dragon boss z]

Every dictionary employs multiple uses of this term (some of which mention a "universe" or a larger "world") and colloquially the word was never necessarily restricted to a universe. We can argue over semantics all day but my point still remains that Zamasu threatening to destroy Goku's galaxy doesn't necessarily mean his maximum power only extended to galaxy level outputs. Toyotaro's point was just to emphasize how far Zamasu was willing to go to wipe out his enemies in that situation.

It could still easily be interpreted as a gauge of power, which is the most likely scenario from a writing point of view. If he just wanted to show he was willing to take things out with him he would of probably just said he would destroy the planet like literally every other villain says.

No, that just meant I'm specifying Goku's home galaxy. Nothing more, nothing less. You just completely misinterpreted my point.

Yes, I know what you mean now, but in your other post you said you said nothing that suggested it, but you did, it was just something I interpreted the wrong way, I was just showing you what part I was getting it from because you acted like I got it from nowhere.

This argument is frankly incohesive and all over the place.

Just like Super's writing.

First you're claiming that the anime isn't the same as the manga on the basis of Trunks and future Zamasu fighting on a higher level in the anime even though this was never directly implied at all,

It wasn't implied, it was shown. Future Zamasu clearly fought somewhat evenly with SSB Goku, and Trunks clearly fought evenly with Future Zamasu and even a few times with SSR Black. The power scaling is all over the place, and Trunks gets SSR in the anime and seems to be almost SSB level, something that never happens in the manga and was made up by Toei.

then you proceed to go in a seemingly different direction by claiming that they retconned SSG Goku's strength based on numerical values that were given in an interview related to the BoG film, not Super.

The line related tot he BoG film came from Toriyama. It is likely that the writers would use that to gauge pwoer in Super until told otherwise. You are acting like Super completely retconned BoG movie when it didn't. They are just different interpretations of the same story just like the Super manga of the BoG events are.

Nobody's arguing that SSG Goku could one-shot the universe and I've made that clear since the beginning of the whole discussion.

Some people do argue that which is why I feel the need to bring it up. I knew you didn't say that.

He clearly outstrips galaxy level by leaps and bounds though, otherwise the dialogue would have compared him to a galaxy instead of the universe that he was compared to. He's obviously far above that level of power, this shouldn't even really be a debate.

I agree in the anime this is the case. Like I said this doesn't mean the manga is exactly the same, but I'm not saying it is definitely different either. You just can't say it's true in the manga because it is in the anime. All we know is over time eventually the universe would be destroyed, which means that they are probably at least galaxy level or else it would take too long.

[avasatu]

While I think base anime Vegito would be about base Kafla level, or perhaps a small bit stronger, base manga Vegito would be at least SS Kafla level, and maybe higher.

[JazzMazz]

So was Kafla using LSSJ or ordinary SSJ before going SSJ2. I thought that LSSJ was supposed to be a bigger boost than than SSJ2 but it does not seem like that is the case.

I'd say she was using the same Super Saiyan that Kale was using which was extra special because her Super Saiyan was just the LSSJ power under control. I don't see why Kale couldn't have also gone Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 on top of that power.

So while Base Vegito and Base Kefla would probably be about equal. Super Saiyan Kefla would likely have been stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito.

Just to clear something up, I think this episode only implies that Kelfa's full power SS2 level is in the same league as Goku's Kaioken X20 as per Piccolo's guess.

I don't think she was supposed to be that weak. She was powerful enough that Roshi said that if her final attack had hit Goku it would have killed him and that was a stronger Ultra Instinct Goku than the one before.

I don't see how that directly contradicts the statement I linked. Weaker characters can(and should) output attacks that can injure or kill opponents that outclass them in power, and they made it pretty clear throughout the episode that Kelfa was expending her all her energy in as dangerous a manner as possible to try and take out Goku.

[AvatarReiko]

So while Base Vegito and Base Kefla would probably be about equal. Super Saiyan Kefla would likely have been stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito.

How can Kafla possibly equal to Vegito if a Worn out Goku is stronger than both of them together? That sounds very illogical to me.

[Bullza]

So while Base Vegito and Base Kefla would probably be about equal. Super Saiyan Kefla would likely have been stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Vegito.

How can Kafla possibly equal to Vegito if a Worn out Goku is stronger than both of them together? That sounds very illogical to me.

Well Super Saiyan 2 Goku was on the same general level as Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla. So they'd be on the same level in Base form too.

Which should mean Base Vegito would probably just be on the same level as Base Kefla. Maybe stronger as perhaps Base Kale brought the pair down.

But Super Saiyan Kale should be stronger than Super Saiyan Saiyan 3 Goku. So you'd think Super Saiyan Kefla would be comfortably above Super Saiyan Vegito.

[Sora Saiyan]

I agree in the anime this is the case. Like I said this doesn't mean the manga is exactly the same, but I'm not saying it is definitely different either. You just can't say it's true in the manga because it is in the anime. All we know is over time eventually the universe would be destroyed, which means that they are probably at least galaxy level or else it would take too long.

I believe that Godku is multi galaxy level in the manga. Shockwaves spreading throughout a Universe and reaching a place outside of it (Kaioshin realm), where the shockwaves are then mentioned to be putting the Universe in jeopardy implies that it wouldn’t take all that long to destroy the universe.
We know that the Universe 7 is decent in size, or the same size as ours, because of Jacos line in the manga stating the it is made up of countless galaxies like the Milky Way. So plain old Galaxy level would take way to long to destroy the Universe.

Anyway, I think the anime is a great reference to use for the manga at that point because it’s veey clear what the intention is in both, but the manga is just a total rush job at that stage, and the anime goes into more depth with the bits it shows off.

[Helios518]

I think that might of been temporary for just that fight, since if Goku could of powered up to ssj3 to make himself to get 8x stronger he would of, it would also mean after losing god power he got 8x stronger which makes no sense. If Goku permanently retained the power of SSG he should have to go ssj3 to attain it.

I wasn't saying SSJ Goku is god tier, that's why I explicitly mentioned SSJG-absorbed SSJ. But my point was there was other instance where they said he could destroy the universe besides the weird clash and no those aren't chain reactions.

The elder Kai said the battle threatened to destroy the universe, which could mean a few things. 1) It's like saying a nuclear war could destroy the planet, even though it wouldn't literally destroy the planet, just wreck the surface. At why else would Toyotaro have Zamasu say he would destroy the entire galaxy if not for a power reference? Zamasu was damaged and tired and that may not of been his max, but galaxy busting still must be impressive for people of their level, and 2) fused Zamasu really wasn't that much above SSB Goku either, while in the anime he was close to SSB Vegito. 3) There is also the possibility that the dragon ball universe is much smaller than our own. Super has confirmed that there are only 28 planets with mortals on them, which sounds pretty stupid considering I feel like we've seen almost that many already plus many different kinds of aliens from the Frieza force and galactic patrol and if their universe was really the size of ours I definitely don't see how that would be the case. Also Frieza's force controlled a good portion of the universe and their force really wasn't even that big. So being universe level in dragon ball may be less impressive than it is in real life.

1)Elder Kai said the universe would straight up become an empty void, so the nuking situation is not the case. https://gfycat.com/GrippingPracticalAztecant

2) You can't scale Manga Fused Zamasu's galaxy busting statement to Anime SSJB Vegetto because they're two different continuities. Even if you did, Anime Fused Zamasu was only close to Vegetto because he got corrupted which made him much stronger.

3) Having a universe with only 28 mortal-filled planets doesn't mean the universe is small, it would mean there's little to no life in that universe. It would be like saying Russia is smaller than India because Russia has a smaller population. We should assume the U7 is as big as IRL universe because most common things are the same like the Sun, Moon's distance from Earth, Milky Way, billions of galaxies, etc. Also Freeza controlling a good portion of U7 with a small amount of men is perfectly doable considering there's only 28 mortal-filled planets.

[buutenks]

Universe debating again? There have been allot of mentions of universe busting, so I don't doubt it. I think people are way to strict on these things. I can understand if its mentioned once and never headed from again, people will have doubts.

[Hugo Boss]

I just can not see Kefla SSJ2 on the same level as characters like SSB Vegetto or Jiren (it's weirder she's reached that level and no one even mentioned it). After all, Piccolo just says that she has surpassed the previous level of Goku (referring to the level shown in EP 115, where Goku uses only the Blue Kaioken being tired). Whis talk about the Genki Dama does not have to be interpreted in a literal way, nor does it signify that she had as much energy as a Genki Dama (who was not so powerful). Whis was still referring to SSJ Kefla, who already had level set in episode 115

For me Kefla is in this tier, SSB - SSB Kaioken, nothing more.

The problem is you're blatently ignoring context. Why do they explicitly need to mention that she got to their level when events in the episode show it? Piccolo was blatantly referring to Ultra Instinct Goku in his statement. He wouldn't be as shocked as he was if she simply got above a tired Kaioken x2 Goku. Again, Whis' statement was blatantly about strength. SSJ1 Kefla is around the level of the Spirit Bomb used on Jiren. No ifs ands or buts. That confirms that she was not at full power fighting Kaioken Goku who certainly was using above a x2 multiplier.

Kefla is objectively far above the level you are portraying her as.

It’s interesting you are saying that, because the context I picked is very different from yours. For me, SS Kafla’s energy was below Goku’s with kaioken and SS2 made her surpass that level, as said by Piccolo.

[Liquir]

So, when UI Goku fought Jiren, did he have the same problem, did his punches lack strength because of his consciousness problem, just as it happened in the fight against Kefla or at that time were the attacks at full power ?

[TheSaiyanGod]

Just to clear something up, I think this episode only implies that Kelfa's full power SS2 level is in the same league as Goku's Kaioken X20 as per Piccolo's guess.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Kefla in episode 115 was weaker than Goku SSB KK tired. And the most recent level of power used by Goku was SSB KK himself. Kefla only surpassed this level, something that had not happened before

[JazzMazz]

Just to clear something up, I think this episode only implies that Kelfa's full power SS2 level is in the same league as Goku's Kaioken X20 as per Piccolo's guess.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Kefla in episode 115 was weaker than Goku SSB KK tired. And the most recent level of power used by Goku was SSB KK himself. Kefla only surpassed this level, something that had not happened before

Thank you for agreeing with me.

[Zamasu55]

Goku never used KKx20 against Kefla.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I mentioned it in the thread I made specifically to talk about the Ultra Instinct, but some of my speculation has been semi-confirmed.

The Ultra Instinct requires letting go of the reins and allowing it to do its job. I theorized that it could regulate power to maximize damage in addition to allowing Goku's body effortlessly dodge and weave through attacks when it first came out as an attempt to not bring in pure power. It seems I was right.

When Goku consciously thinks his attacks through, his body fails to produce enough power when he strikes to do as much damage as he'd like.

The Ultra Instinct knows better. Like Lord Popo, formerly the Demon God of Destruction Dumplin.

[Ki Breaker]

So after Cauliflowa and walking plot device to give Cauliflowa LSSJ as well named kefla is gone for a little while, I want to ask this of the people who try to support every powerup they have had and mastered in around 30mins....
How's your take to justify all that has gone down? I am curious how far the limits of human imagination can be stretched..

[TheSaiyanGod]

Just to clear something up, I think this episode only implies that Kelfa's full power SS2 level is in the same league as Goku's Kaioken X20 as per Piccolo's guess.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Kefla in episode 115 was weaker than Goku SSB KK tired. And the most recent level of power used by Goku was SSB KK himself. Kefla only surpassed this level, something that had not happened before

Thank you for agreeing with me.

Well, I do not believe that Kefla was more powerful than Goku SSB KK x20, Goku used only the Kaioken x2 on EP 115, being tired (and still more powerful than she)

Goku SSB KK fully recovered would probably be able to defeat her in SSJ2.

[JazzMazz]

Kefla in episode 115 was weaker than Goku SSB KK tired. And the most recent level of power used by Goku was SSB KK himself. Kefla only surpassed this level, something that had not happened before

Thank you for agreeing with me.

Well, I do not believe that Kefla was more powerful than Goku SSB KK x20, Goku used only the Kaioken x2 on EP 115, being tired (and still more powerful than she)

Goku SSB KK fully recovered would probably be able to defeat her in SSJ2.

I think they are at least someone comparable in power.

[Helios518]

Does anybody here have a tier list for the DBS Manga?