Doctor. wrote:nickzambuto wrote:ABED wrote:
How is he inconsistently written?
I want to hear as well. Most of the commonly proposed inconsistencies, like his floating moral scale between prioritizing fights and prioritizing protection, I would call complexities.
They're not complexities because they're not well-developed enough to be described as such. They just come across as arbitrary decisions and changes in his personality. His insistence on sparing, say, Freeza (purely out of kindness and not a desire to fight him again) over someone like Raditz or Cell is completely arbitrary and even nonsensical. Or the fact that he becomes preoccupied with saving his opponents as an adult, while he didn't care about that as a kid, only to go back to killing them with no remorse straight (he kills Yakon and straight-up says they should kill Dabura and Cell) after the Namek arc.
Those are very different situations. Goku had surpassed Freeza utterly. He pretty much stated it outright when he tried leaving the first time; you plainly aren't a threat, therefore there is no longer a point to fighting.
Raditz and Cell WERE threats. And guess what? Despite that, he DID try very hard to spare Raditz. Remember his decision to release his tail? Raditz, like Ma Junior before him, mocked Goku for being too kind. Clearly, compassion and morals are a big part in Goku's decision making. Goku eventually killed Raditz and Cell because there was no other choice, either they die or they destroy the world. Freeza was different, because he was not a threat. What we SHOULD be asking is, if Goku were massively stronger than Raditz or Cell, would he have spared them? The answer is probably yes because that is his consistent MO. He spares villains (or tries to) when he knows he can beat them (Tao, Ma Junior, Nappa, Ginyu Force, Freeza) and he kills them when he has to (Daimao, Raditz, Cell, Boo).
This all sounds perfectly logical, sensible, and reasonable to me. I honestly agree with Goku's moral code -- we stop the threat, and if the threat is foiled, there's no reason for pointless bloodshed. That goes passed justice and is simply sadism, killing all villains even when he doesn't have to is what a saiyan would do, and Goku doesn't want to be like a saiyan.
Honestly I think Yakon is the one, sole outlier in this moral system. Goku killed him despite not really needing to. Then again, I can argue that Goku DID need to because otherwise they wouldn't be able to proceed. Babidi transported them to another planet or dimension IIRC. Goku also did not go out of his way to kill Yakon, he didn't necessarily do it on purpose, it just happened as a result of the fight. And Yakon was a gross nobody so who even cares if he dies.
Doctor. wrote:His 'Saiyan traits' were never very prominent before the Saiyan arc either. He expressed a desire to fight Piccolo again, but right in the fight with Raditz, he says he's terrified and it's Piccolo, of all people, who's excited for the fight. His enthusiasm for fighting strong opponents was definitely scaled up to 11 in part 2, go back to the first arcs of the series and he's someone much less interested in dragging out fights for his enjoyment. You'll probably say, as I also did once, that these changes are all due to Kami and Kaio's influence, his growth into an adult, coming into contact with other Saiyans reignited his Saiyan instincts and he probably figured he should stop sparring people after Freeza betrayed his trust, but those are all rationalizations, headcanon, to explain arbitrary changes and decisions that the story doesn't care enough to provide an explanation for. You shouldn't be developing the character in place of the author.
I believe all of this is part of Goku's gradual evolution.
When the series begins, he's just living alone in the woods. He has no idea of the world around him, so he's perfectly content with just living casually in solitude. When Bulma brings him into the larger world and he realizes how many interesting things there are to do, that sparks the first flame in his desire for adventure. And he states this at the conclusion of the first arc, he says something like "I never imagined the world was full of so many interesting people! This is so much fun!" so you can't say I'm just rationalizing. Goku was completely content when his whole world was just that forest, but thanks to Bulma, he grew a desire for adventure.
After that, it was Kamesennin who taught Goku to have ambition. Goku didn't seem very concerned with improving himself before meeting Bulma. After realizing how fun the world is, he asked Kamesennin to train him, but Kamesennin seemed to be very confident that Goku NEEDED to lose the 21st Budokai, otherwise he would grow content and never reach his full potential. Seeing how amazing Jackie Chun is, and soon after being beaten so easily by Tao, are what made Goku realize there are always higher levels to strive for. Again, you can't say this is me just rationalizing, because Kamesennin explained all of this outright, it was the entire point of that arc.
After that, Karin is the one who taught Goku that hard work is what will lead to success. Goku climbed the tower expecting a magic potion to grant him strength. Karin told him that such shortcuts don't exist, but all of his hard work is what led to him becoming stronger. Stomping Tao right after this is a very important event, because it taught Goku that hard work and training really will lead to him succeeding. So this is where he got that mentality. Once again you can not say this is a rationalization or headcanon, because the fact that Karin tricked Goku is very important, Goku learning that hard work pays off more than shortcuts do was the entire point of that section of the arc.
And by this point, Goku had clearly begun expressing saiyan traits. He was expressing saiyan traits since the very beginning because he clearly enjoyed fighting Yamcha, but by this point, his whole dream is to win the Tenkaichi Budokai. Another user made a great point about how Goku's attitude is completely different between the 21st and 22nd Budokais. At the 21st, he's not taking it seriously at all, it's just fun and games because he is a kid. By the 22nd, he's dead fucking serious, paying close attention to every fight and analyzing all the competition, he's planning strategies for future fights before they even happen, he came to win, end of story.
By the time he fights Ma Junior, his battle lust has grown even more. And there's no specific impetus for his battle lust to have grown, like there were impetuses for his sense of adventure (Bulma), ambition (Kamesennin), and hardworking attitude (Karin). But I don't think there needs to be, it makes sense that this is just a symptom of Goku getting older, continually pushing new boundaries, and continually facing more and more challenging foes. Just as the fights get more exciting for us as the series continues, so do they for Goku. Piccolo was a whole new level of competition compared to everyone before, so it makes sense that with each raising of the stakes, each fight being more exciting than the last, Goku would grow to crave battle more and more.
You say that Goku's battle cravings went up to 11 after this point, but wouldn't that make sense if every new battle is more exciting than the last? This is definitely a clearcut character arc for Goku, because it all came to a head during BoG. Goku's lust for battle has been growing nonstop since day 1; initially fighting was just a game, then it became something serious at the 22nd Budokai, then it became his whole life at the 23ed Budokai, and things just kept getting more and more extreme, and Goku kept craving more and more. Why? Because he kept
winning. He kept
succeeding. Naturally, success after success after success after success had an impact on Goku's mentality. He started growing more and more arrogant as time went on. We can see this mostly with his attitudes towards Cell and Boo. And don't say that Goku hasn't faced nonstop success, because even if he does have many losses on his record, the fact is that he always succeeds in the end. He always surpasses the odds or reaches a new height previously thought inconceivable. Honestly the idea that his ego has been slowly swelling over time makes perfect sense, and BoG was all about him being taken down a peg. You always win and beat the odds, but look at this Beerus guy. He's a million times stronger than you, and this time, you didn't beat the odds. He can kill you and destroy Earth if he wants to. And even if you did beat the odds barely like usual, his attendant Whis is stronger still. And even if you somehow beat that as well, there are 12 other universes and who knows what level those guys are on.
It all feels perfectly organic to me. To summarize, Goku's battle lust grows and his arrogance grows because he keeps reaching new heights. I'm not making headcanon or rationalizing because this is very realistic. It happens to real people. The adrenaline Goku feels when he fights and succeeds is like a drug high, and drug addicts are always searching for higher and higher highs.
Doctor. wrote:You can call this all development if you want, but Goku has almost no arcs,
Losing the 21st Budokai to learn the lesson of never being content is an arc. So was learning the lesson that there are no shortcuts and hard work truly pays off.
My favorite arc for Goku is when he transforms into a Super Saiyan and has the opportunity to experience what it's like to be a saiyan. Goku spent his whole life saving the world from threats like the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo, and the twist that he was destined to be worse than all of them is very interesting irony to me. So when he transforms into a Super Saiyan, he finally gives into his race's nature and becomes bloodthirsty, sadistic, and filled with rage. Kaio laments over this fact and says that the Goku everybody knows is gone, so once again, you can't say this is rationalization, it's made very clear in the story that Goku has become like his people. It's during the fight with Freeza where Goku comes to realize, he doesn't WANT to be like his people. Originally he just hit his head and that made him good. It was sheer dumb luck, and therefore, questionable whether Goku was actually a good person or not. Now that he is given the opportunity to revel in bloodlust and become the person he was born to be, only now does he have the CHOICE to be good or bad, and he CHOOSES to be good. But people don't get it because all of this is shown with actions and not words. Goku doesn't have a big speech explaining his character conflict; instead, he shows what's happening with his actions by outright threatening Gohan, and then torturing Freeza, then after fighting and experiencing bloodlust, he makes the decision to leave the fight and spare Freeza, CHOOSING not to be like the saiyans.
That's really good stuff if you ask me. Phooey to anyone who says Toriyama isn't a great writer.
Doctor. wrote:but Goku has almost no arcs, outside of his acceptance of his Saiyan heritage in the Saiyan and Namek arcs (which is also somewhat poorly done, considering he acknowledges himself as a Saiyan the moment he meets Kaio);
It's an acknowledgement of fact. Goku isn't in denial, nobody ever said he's delusional and clings to a fantasy that he's a human. Admitting to Kaio that he is a saiyan was in reference to Kaio saying the saiyans might be too strong for him. There's no inconsistency with this character arc because even though Goku acknowledges the fact that he is biologically a saiyan, the important thing is that he still denies their ideologies and being like them. There's nothing wrong with Goku admitting to Kaio that he is a saiyan, Goku being some kind of delusional idiot telling everybody that he's a human wouldn't be interesting. He knows that he's a saiyan, but that doesn't matter, he's still choosing not to be like them. Later on he changes his mind and decides to accept certain aspects of being a saiyan, because Vegeta earns his respect. Then after that he becomes a full-blown saiyan filled with bloodlust and anger, but he rejects that and chooses to be himself. In the end, it's only by combining his saiyan and earthling heritage that Goku is able to reach an unprecedented level of power. It's ironic that a Super Saiyan is actually a lot more powerful when they have a calm heart as opposed to an angry one (referring to the Full Power Super Saiyan form he used against Cell)
Doctor. wrote:
ABED wrote:People can have inconsistent actions for a number of reasons, even if their psychology is consistent. Goku has a goal that he never waivers from - to be the best and have the most interesting fights.
And even
that goal is one that he only gains after the first arc of the series and his training with Roshi, with seemingly no reason for the change (besides the out-of-universe decision on Toriyama's part to turn the series into a tournament-based battle manga by that point, which is obviously why Goku's personality changed somewhat drastically from one arc to the other). He really didn't seem all that interested in becoming the best, or even fighting in general, in the first arc.
He didn't seem interested in being the best in the first arc because his whole world was that little section of forest. He doesn't really become interested in being the best until the 22nd tournament.
First he has to develop a desire for fun and adventure.
Then he has to develop a genuine ambition. During the 21st, the whole thing is just a game for Goku, he isn't taking it seriously. Losing to Jackie Chun, and being pulverized by Tao, then realizing that he can not help Upa, all in sequence, is the reason Goku developed that desire to become stronger. There's this really great sequence of panels right after the fight with Tao, where there's no dialogue, Goku just looks at his hands, realizes he does not have the strength to defeat Tao, then looks up at Karin's Tower, and that is when he makes the decision to become stronger.
Then he is rewarded for his ambition and hard work by utterly surpassing Tao. That is a high. Goku keeps getting these highs as he fights more and more interesting people, and because of that, his battle lust gradually grows.