How much stronger is SSJ Blue than SSJ God?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's obviously not 2. It's 50x in the anime.

I don't think so. Goku feels that he needs to use the Kaio-ken, and indeed we see that he does, though at what level is unknown.

50 times is extremely exaggerated and severely bloats the scale more than necessary.

2-10 times is more than satisfactory, especially on the lower end of this range. SSG isn't made completely worthless, and Kaio-ken becomes the more significant powerup.

You do realize that ssjb is just a ssjg that turns ssj right? That's why it's 50. Ssj is 50x base and ssjg acts as the base of ssjb, so it's 50x ssjg. Goku's original plan was to power up ssjb with Kaioken because he wanted to use it against Beerus but since there's tons of people who are above ssjb level he uses it against them. In the manga it's about 10x ssjg because the manga changes the multipliers.

Not exactly. The form is described as a Saiyan with the power of SSG turning SS, involves great Ki control, and has greater stamina issues than SSG.

Merely with SS2, Kefla far surpasses even Goku, which would make sense if she was already around the level of his SSB form with Kaio-ken multiplying it. The scale would line up well, then, if SSG was equal to her base form, SSB was twice as strong as SSG, and Kaio-kenX20 was added to equal SS Kefla's full power. Her going SS2 would then easily put her above even Goku no matter the form besides when he reawakened the Ultra Instinct.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Not much stronger than SSJ God. Also keep in mind it's a little bit obvious now that the multipliers are all out of whack (much lower than in DBZ). No matter how many times I figure it out, SSB is maybe only 2x stronger than SSG if even that. And I'm not even sure if Kaioken is following any sort of set multipliers at this point.

It's obviously not 2. It's 50x in the anime.

If SSB was 50x, then Beerus is weak as hell and stands no chance against Goku, and several other characters are also stronger than Beerus too.

[SoulSurj]

I don't think so. Goku feels that he needs to use the Kaio-ken, and indeed we see that he does, though at what level is unknown.

50 times is extremely exaggerated and severely bloats the scale more than necessary.

2-10 times is more than satisfactory, especially on the lower end of this range. SSG isn't made completely worthless, and Kaio-ken becomes the more significant powerup.

You do realize that ssjb is just a ssjg that turns ssj right? That's why it's 50. Ssj is 50x base and ssjg acts as the base of ssjb, so it's 50x ssjg. Goku's original plan was to power up ssjb with Kaioken because he wanted to use it against Beerus but since there's tons of people who are above ssjb level he uses it against them. In the manga it's about 10x ssjg because the manga changes the multipliers.

Not exactly. The form is described as a Saiyan with the power of SSG turning SS, involves great Ki control, and has greater stamina issues than SSG.

Merely with SS2, Kefla far surpasses even Goku, which would make sense if she was already around the level of his SSB form with Kaio-ken multiplying it. The scale would line up well, then, if SSG was equal to her base form, SSB was twice as strong as SSG, and Kaio-kenX20 was added to equal SS Kefla's full power. Her going SS2 would then easily put her above even Goku no matter the form besides when he reawakened the Ultra Instinct.

Kefla started out at a tired ssjg Goku level but her power was stated to rise over time so eventually she went up to his ssjb level and then went past even ssjb Kaioken x20. Plus it wasn't even ssj 2, it was Lssj 2 because Kefla has a mixture of both.

[SoulSurj]

Not much stronger than SSJ God. Also keep in mind it's a little bit obvious now that the multipliers are all out of whack (much lower than in DBZ). No matter how many times I figure it out, SSB is maybe only 2x stronger than SSG if even that. And I'm not even sure if Kaioken is following any sort of set multipliers at this point.

It's obviously not 2. It's 50x in the anime.

If SSB was 50x, then Beerus is weak as hell and stands no chance against Goku, and several other characters are also stronger than Beerus too.

What are you talking about? Are you one of those people who thinks Beerus used 70% against Goku? That's the only way I can see your comment making any sense at all. Jiren is at or slightly above Beerus's level and even ssjb Kaioken x20 doesn't do anything to him so why would it work on Beerus?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's obviously not 2. It's 50x in the anime.

If SSB was 50x, then Beerus is weak as hell and stands no chance against Goku, and several other characters are also stronger than Beerus too.

What are you talking about? Are you one of those people who thinks Beerus used 70% against Goku? That's the only way I can see your comment making any sense at all. Jiren is at or slightly above Beerus's level and even ssjb Kaioken x20 doesn't do anything to him so why would it work on Beerus?

He's talking about the enormous scaling bloat that the "50 times" interpretation brings with it.

50 times is simply too much and unnecessary when 2-10 times work just as well AND keeps the bloating of the power-scaling down to somewhat manageable levels.

[SoulSurj]

If SSB was 50x, then Beerus is weak as hell and stands no chance against Goku, and several other characters are also stronger than Beerus too.

What are you talking about? Are you one of those people who thinks Beerus used 70% against Goku? That's the only way I can see your comment making any sense at all. Jiren is at or slightly above Beerus's level and even ssjb Kaioken x20 doesn't do anything to him so why would it work on Beerus?

He's talking about the enormous scaling bloat that the "50 times" interpretation brings with it.

50 times is simply too much and unnecessary when 2-10 times work just as well AND keeps the bloating of the power-scaling down to somewhat manageable levels.

You sure? It doesn't look like that. He basically said that if it's 50x ssjg then Beerus is weak, which makes no sense because Beerus is stronger than ssjb Kaioken x20. 2-10x doesn't work at all. Hit was ssjg level in just his base form. Time skip boosted his ability by 10x and ssjb Goku was still ahead of him. Hit had to raise his time skip from .1 seconds to .2 seconds to do anything. Ssj has always been 50x base. Ssjb is a saiyan with the power of ssjg that turns ssj so ssjgssj, aka ssjb, is 50x ssjg in the anime. Where would the 2-10x boost even come from?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

What are you talking about? Are you one of those people who thinks Beerus used 70% against Goku? That's the only way I can see your comment making any sense at all. Jiren is at or slightly above Beerus's level and even ssjb Kaioken x20 doesn't do anything to him so why would it work on Beerus?

He's talking about the enormous scaling bloat that the "50 times" interpretation brings with it.

50 times is simply too much and unnecessary when 2-10 times work just as well AND keeps the bloating of the power-scaling down to somewhat manageable levels.

You sure? It doesn't look like that. He basically said that if it's 50x ssjg then Beerus is weak, which makes no sense because Beerus is stronger than ssjb Kaioken x20. 2-10x doesn't work at all. Hit was ssjg level in just his base form. Time skip boosted his ability by 10x and ssjb Goku was still ahead of him. Hit had to raise his time skip from .1 seconds to .2 seconds to do anything. Ssj has always been 50x base. Ssjb is a saiyan with the power of ssjg that turns ssj so ssjgssj, aka ssjb, is 50x ssjg in the anime. Where would the 2-10x boost even come from?

From the fact that the mechanics behind SSB compared to SSG aren't as simple as "SSG = base, SSB = 50x SSG base", the manga demonstrates that the difference isn't 50-fold, the fight with Kefla shows that Goku needs Kaio-ken AND SSB to keep up with her normal SS form, and that 10 times was the original boost that Toriyama had in mind when he was originally creating the Super Saiyan form since he felt 50 times was too much.

The latter statement from the man himself, I believe applies just as much to the current debate about where SSB stands next to SSG.

Another thing is that the English dub for the original Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection of F film described SSB as a way to tap into the power of SSG without the need for the ritual. The manga also describes SSR as essentially the same as SSB, and also what happens when SS surpasses SSG. It's not simply a matter of SSB being the SS form of SSG; SSB is more like SS being used to better channel SSG's power, like how Gohan's Ultimate state is a better way to channel his full potential than SS forms.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

It's obviously not 2. It's 50x in the anime.

If SSB was 50x, then Beerus is weak as hell and stands no chance against Goku, and several other characters are also stronger than Beerus too.

What are you talking about? Are you one of those people who thinks Beerus used 70% against Goku? That's the only way I can see your comment making any sense at all. Jiren is at or slightly above Beerus's level and even ssjb Kaioken x20 doesn't do anything to him so why would it work on Beerus?

Then I guess Beerus was using somewhere between 100th to 500th his full power against SSG Goku which wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.



But I am one of those people who applies logic to things, I see no logic behind this. Does Beerus go into slumber so long he just forgets how powerful he is? What exactly is going on.

[SoulSurj]

He's talking about the enormous scaling bloat that the "50 times" interpretation brings with it.

50 times is simply too much and unnecessary when 2-10 times work just as well AND keeps the bloating of the power-scaling down to somewhat manageable levels.

You sure? It doesn't look like that. He basically said that if it's 50x ssjg then Beerus is weak, which makes no sense because Beerus is stronger than ssjb Kaioken x20. 2-10x doesn't work at all. Hit was ssjg level in just his base form. Time skip boosted his ability by 10x and ssjb Goku was still ahead of him. Hit had to raise his time skip from .1 seconds to .2 seconds to do anything. Ssj has always been 50x base. Ssjb is a saiyan with the power of ssjg that turns ssj so ssjgssj, aka ssjb, is 50x ssjg in the anime. Where would the 2-10x boost even come from?

From the fact that the mechanics behind SSB compared to SSG aren't as simple as "SSG = base, SSB = 50x SSG base", the manga demonstrates that the difference isn't 50-fold, the fight with Kefla shows that Goku needs Kaio-ken AND SSB to keep up with her normal SS form, and that 10 times was the original boost that Toriyama had in mind when he was originally creating the Super Saiyan form since he felt 50 times was too much.

The latter statement from the man himself, I believe applies just as much to the current debate about where SSB stands next to SSG.

Another thing is that the English dub for the original Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection of F film described SSB as a way to tap into the power of SSG without the need for the ritual. The manga also describes SSR as essentially the same as SSB, and also what happens when SS surpasses SSG. It's not simply a matter of SSB being the SS form of SSG; SSB is more like SS being used to better channel SSG's power, like how Gohan's Ultimate state is a better way to channel his full potential than SS forms.

You're getting things confused. The manga, anime, and movie are not entirely the same. There are some things that are but most things aren't. In the manga ssjb is 10x ssjg, Base Vegito is stronger than ssjb Goku and Vegeta, and ssj rose doesn't even need ssjg because Black just kept getting Zenkai boosts until he reached the form. In the anime ssjb is essentially just a ssjg that turns ssj and the movie was retconned by both. Ssj rose in the anime was stated to be Black's regular ssj form while it was ssjb in the manga. By the end of the BoG movie Goku was equal to ssjg in his base form while in the anime ssj was equal to ssjg during the fight with Beerus. The movie really has nothing to do with either of them and ssjb and rose are handled almost completely different.

[SoulSurj]

If SSB was 50x, then Beerus is weak as hell and stands no chance against Goku, and several other characters are also stronger than Beerus too.

What are you talking about? Are you one of those people who thinks Beerus used 70% against Goku? That's the only way I can see your comment making any sense at all. Jiren is at or slightly above Beerus's level and even ssjb Kaioken x20 doesn't do anything to him so why would it work on Beerus?

Then I guess Beerus was using somewhere between 100th to 500th his full power against SSG Goku which wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.



But I am one of those people who applies logic to things, I see no logic behind this. Does Beerus go into slumber so long he just forgets how powerful he is? What exactly is going on.

There's nothing really logical about what you're saying. Beerus held back against Goku, and he even said this to Whis. The only reason he held back by so much is because, in reality, he was thought up for just the BoG movie and Toriyama had no intention of making another one until he and Toei found out how popular DB still was. Then they made RoF and retconned Beerus's original power so Goku, Vegeta, and Frieza wouldn't be past him or Whis by the time they got the ssjb and Golden forms. The percentages were left in Super because he wanted to make Goku think that he was close to him in power so Goku would fight him seriously. The entire BoG arc was basically just about Beerus fighting Goku and lying about his true power. They even made Goku's Ssj equal ssjg at the end of the arc just to show that even if Goku used ssjb with Kaioken he still wouldn't have been anywhere near Beerus.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You're getting things confused. The manga, anime, and movie are not entirely the same. There are some things that are but most things aren't. In the manga ssjb is 10x ssjg, Base Vegito is stronger than ssjb Goku and Vegeta, and ssj rose doesn't even need ssjg because Black just kept getting Zenkai boosts until he reached the form. In the anime ssjb is essentially just a ssjg that turns ssj and the movie was retconned by both. Ssj rose in the anime was stated to be Black's regular ssj form while it was ssjb in the manga. By the end of the BoG movie Goku was equal to ssjg in his base form while in the anime ssj was equal to ssjg during the fight with Beerus. The movie really has nothing to do with either of them and ssjb and rose are handled almost completely different.

I am not getting things confused. I am perfectly aware that all three are different continuities.

I am merely noting some of the narrative and stylistic choices made between them, and how they don't paint SSB as something leagues and leagues beyond SSG. SSB has been treated more like what SS2 is to SS. It's stronger and overall better for combat against opponents stronger than SSG, but it does drain stamina a bit more albeit not in a way that'd make it useless in a fight like SS3. Basically, why use SSG when SSB is better in every way except stamina? When SS2 was made common in the Buu Arc, regular SS really wasn't useful for when the heroes had to fight Majin Buu's various incarnations.

[SoulSurj]

You're getting things confused. The manga, anime, and movie are not entirely the same. There are some things that are but most things aren't. In the manga ssjb is 10x ssjg, Base Vegito is stronger than ssjb Goku and Vegeta, and ssj rose doesn't even need ssjg because Black just kept getting Zenkai boosts until he reached the form. In the anime ssjb is essentially just a ssjg that turns ssj and the movie was retconned by both. Ssj rose in the anime was stated to be Black's regular ssj form while it was ssjb in the manga. By the end of the BoG movie Goku was equal to ssjg in his base form while in the anime ssj was equal to ssjg during the fight with Beerus. The movie really has nothing to do with either of them and ssjb and rose are handled almost completely different.

I am not getting things confused. I am perfectly aware that all three are different continuities.

I am merely noting some of the narrative and stylistic choices made between them, and how they don't paint SSB as something leagues and leagues beyond SSG. SSB has been treated more like what SS2 is to SS. It's stronger and overall better for combat against opponents stronger than SSG, but it does drain stamina a bit more albeit not in a way that'd make it useless in a fight like SS3. Basically, why use SSG when SSB is better in every way except stamina? When SS2 was made common in the Buu Arc, regular SS really wasn't useful for when the heroes had to fight Majin Buu's various incarnations.

It's not like Ssj to Ssj 2. This is shown visually, stated, and implied throughout the whole show. When a ssjg turns ssj, that makes ssjb. When a Ssj ascends to higher levels of the previous ssj forms that makes Ssj 2. If the forms were the same as the original line up then they would just be ssjg and ssjg 2. Ssjb isn't portrayed as being leagues above ssjg because Goku hasn't won a major fight throughout the entirety of Super and the writers just aren't consistent with how powerful these forms, or the characters, really are. That doesn't mean it's not 50x ssjg, that just means that the characters are meant to be stronger than Goku and Vegeta are.