Cetra wrote:Which part?Torturephile wrote: I dislike that way of thinking that you mentioned at the beginning of your post . . .
Cetra wrote:People just think everyone who does not get a major kill is trash.
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Cetra wrote:Which part?Torturephile wrote: I dislike that way of thinking that you mentioned at the beginning of your post . . .
Cetra wrote:People just think everyone who does not get a major kill is trash.
MaskedRider wrote:The duality of man.Torturephile wrote:hunduel wrote:I liked this episode. I seriously don't know why people hate it.The fandom in a nutshell.namekiansaiyan wrote:I seriously don't see why some of you like this episode when nothing happened and was basically filler.
GT didn't introduce Pan or Uub either; they came from DBZ. GT just made them worse.sunsetshimmer wrote:And who did Super introduce to main cast? Beerus wasn't the real protagonist and he isn't even from Super, he is from DBZ movie, so i don't count him anyway.PFM18 wrote:
...You are actually saying that Super didn't "make new ideas and introduce new protagonists to Z-team" as though GT did this better? are You serious?
Other than that, entire cast consisted of old characters without any major change that would happen in 6 years since Buu saga, like Goten and Trunks actually growing up a bit.
GT had Pan and Uub + Giru who was completely new character in franchise.
Goten and Trunks were adults and were completely different than they were before. And i'm 100% sure that DBS would try to make GT Trunks a clone of Future Trunks instead of giving him his own personality.
Entire DBS is just like another episode of Buu saga. Or movie based on it. You can't tell anything has changed since then.
Marron didn't change AT ALL either. She is still a small baby despite having 9 years. Yes, she is almost TWICE older than Gohan was on Namek.
It's like Shin-Chan where time flows, years pass by, mother even gets pregnant and give birth to daughter, but Shin is always 5yo.
The only exception would be Gohan and Videl. You can actually see that Gohan does something with his life and Videl is completely different both in look and personality. And while i don't really like what DBS made with her, yeah, they at least tried something, so i won't be a hypocrite and i have to respect that.
(still, her new look and personality came from movies, not DBS directly. Super just expanded it)
What did Super do wrong with Gohan and Videl?fadeddreams5 wrote:GT didn't introduce Pan or Uub either; they came from DBZ. GT just made them worse.sunsetshimmer wrote:And who did Super introduce to main cast? Beerus wasn't the real protagonist and he isn't even from Super, he is from DBZ movie, so i don't count him anyway.PFM18 wrote:
...You are actually saying that Super didn't "make new ideas and introduce new protagonists to Z-team" as though GT did this better? are You serious?
Other than that, entire cast consisted of old characters without any major change that would happen in 6 years since Buu saga, like Goten and Trunks actually growing up a bit.
GT had Pan and Uub + Giru who was completely new character in franchise.
Goten and Trunks were adults and were completely different than they were before. And i'm 100% sure that DBS would try to make GT Trunks a clone of Future Trunks instead of giving him his own personality.
Entire DBS is just like another episode of Buu saga. Or movie based on it. You can't tell anything has changed since then.
Marron didn't change AT ALL either. She is still a small baby despite having 9 years. Yes, she is almost TWICE older than Gohan was on Namek.
It's like Shin-Chan where time flows, years pass by, mother even gets pregnant and give birth to daughter, but Shin is always 5yo.
The only exception would be Gohan and Videl. You can actually see that Gohan does something with his life and Videl is completely different both in look and personality. And while i don't really like what DBS made with her, yeah, they at least tried something, so i won't be a hypocrite and i have to respect that.
(still, her new look and personality came from movies, not DBS directly. Super just expanded it)
Goten and Trunks maintained the same personalities in GT as they did in EoZ, which I thought were awful btw, especially in the case of Trunks, who's way too much like his future counterpart, which makes little sense.
'
While I do agree that Super failed at physically progressing the majority of characters, I do not respect the changes they made to Gohan and Videl--especially the latter.
They stripped both of anything that made them remotely interesting. Up until the ToP arc, there was huge backlash over Gohan's character, so I don't think I need to cover that. Even in the ToP arc, Android 17 ended up being more relevant.PFM18 wrote:What did Super do wrong with Gohan and Videl?fadeddreams5 wrote:GT didn't introduce Pan or Uub either; they came from DBZ. GT just made them worse.sunsetshimmer wrote:
And who did Super introduce to main cast? Beerus wasn't the real protagonist and he isn't even from Super, he is from DBZ movie, so i don't count him anyway.
Other than that, entire cast consisted of old characters without any major change that would happen in 6 years since Buu saga, like Goten and Trunks actually growing up a bit.
GT had Pan and Uub + Giru who was completely new character in franchise.
Goten and Trunks were adults and were completely different than they were before. And i'm 100% sure that DBS would try to make GT Trunks a clone of Future Trunks instead of giving him his own personality.
Entire DBS is just like another episode of Buu saga. Or movie based on it. You can't tell anything has changed since then.
Marron didn't change AT ALL either. She is still a small baby despite having 9 years. Yes, she is almost TWICE older than Gohan was on Namek.
It's like Shin-Chan where time flows, years pass by, mother even gets pregnant and give birth to daughter, but Shin is always 5yo.
The only exception would be Gohan and Videl. You can actually see that Gohan does something with his life and Videl is completely different both in look and personality. And while i don't really like what DBS made with her, yeah, they at least tried something, so i won't be a hypocrite and i have to respect that.
(still, her new look and personality came from movies, not DBS directly. Super just expanded it)
Goten and Trunks maintained the same personalities in GT as they did in EoZ, which I thought were awful btw, especially in the case of Trunks, who's way too much like his future counterpart, which makes little sense.
'
While I do agree that Super failed at physically progressing the majority of characters, I do not respect the changes they made to Gohan and Videl--especially the latter.
This was a bit random? Completely ignored the responses that have made to you. I don't really see the point of this post. You're basically repeating the same thing you've said over and over again without giving anything to back it upPFM18 wrote:Yeah I think I could probably sift through my couch and find sone spare change, and give that money to some random high school kids asking them to make an anime and use the money to fund it, they could probably come up with a better anime than GT.
What? People have been stating their individual feelings on it irrespective of any points I have made. Nobody responded recently, or atleast from what I have seen, to any of the recent things that have mentioned. The last page I havent even really been involved in. Not sure what you are referring to.Timetraveller wrote:This was a bit random? Completely ignored the responses that have made to you. I don't really see the point of this post. You're basically repeating the same thing you've said over and over again without giving anything to back it upPFM18 wrote:Yeah I think I could probably sift through my couch and find sone spare change, and give that money to some random high school kids asking them to make an anime and use the money to fund it, they could probably come up with a better anime than GT.
Really you thought the Tournament of Power was really THAT bad? I know you aren't fan but I mean you just said Super was much better than GT, so now the ToP brings this down so far that you aren't sure? I don't know how you could put it in the same realm as the dumpster fire that is GT. I still don't understand why you dislike it so much, I mean is Jiren vs Goku not arguably the best fight in the franchise? Whether it be the fights of 109 and 110 or 129-131those are the best of the best. Gohan had his moments vs Dyspo and the U6 Namekians, Vegeta was actually portrayed as being powerful and his most significant victory in the entire franchise against Toppo, the master Roshi episodes, the superb animation, the contrast in motives and ideals between the fighters, not sure how you could consider it to be on the same level as GTDoctor. wrote:I'll have to rewatch GT, but although I have always claimed that Super was much better than GT until the TOP, that arc really made me question everything I thought I knew. It might just be worse than even the garbage pile that is GT. I'll still hold Super above GT because at least it entertains me and I could finish the series; I don't know how many times I've tried to rewatch GT only to drop it.
In terms of animation? Probably. In terms of drama and the fight choreography? Not even close.PFM18 wrote: I mean is Jiren vs Goku not arguably the best fight in the franchise? Whether it be the fights of 109 and 110 or 129-131those are the best of the best. Gohan had his moments vs Dyspo and the U6 Namekians, Vegeta was actually portrayed as being powerful and his most significant victory in the entire franchise against Toppo, the master Roshi episodes, the superb animation, the contrast in motives and ideals between the fighters, not sure how you could consider it to be on the same level as GT
Clearly Toriyama intended this, because the exact same regression of them happened in ROF. Gohan was made extremely lanky, couldn't even find his Gi and barely could recall if he could go SS. GT at least kept him the same as EOZ, just started the whole thing of "No ultimate anymore" that was retained in ROF. This was clearly intended. Gohan in Super shouldn't have had to relearn anything if its just months to a year after Buu.Thus why in Super that path was redundant and false character progression. If there was no backlash he would have stayed that way. Videl is also no more interesting in Super than she is in GT. Shes flat and involved in anything. If anything the only reason why Super does anything better than the parallel in GT is because Toei is aware of how fans want to see some of the most vocally represented characters. Their own plans for them were no different to GT. In GT they just did it blatantly.fadeddreams5 wrote:They stripped both of anything that made them remotely interesting. Up until the ToP arc, there was huge backlash over Gohan's character, so I don't think I need to cover that. Even in the ToP arc, Android 17 ended up being more relevant.
Videl became the most generic and boring character ever. It's not even Videl. This isn't character development. It's character replacement.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.
Good lord no.Professor Freeza wrote:Not at all. Storytelling, grand spectacle? Epic Transformations.. it has it all.
Not to mention the ambiguity of the Grand Priest, and the implication of an ulterior motive, or the Angels not being worried about being judged by Zeno, or the U9 Angel smiling in relief that U9 was gone. All added up to nothing, a potential plot that could have made the arc a lot better than it just being fighting, and goodness. GT at least stuck with a plot-line and actually had conflict with none of the half-assed endings to the arcs Super gave us. In GT, they just killed Omega Shenron and Normal Shenron just said hes taking the balls away in result of the arc. There was no sudden "Oh well you guys proved you're good people, so never mind" forced in.Puaru wrote:Good lord no.Professor Freeza wrote:Not at all. Storytelling, grand spectacle? Epic Transformations.. it has it all.
The storytelling in the ToP saga was weak just like it was in the rest of Super. They hinted and built up so much that NEVER got any kind of payoff, and which has a very high risk of never getting any kind of payoff in any later stories either. Like how Beerus started to worry that Goku's playing around with Zeno might be a threat to all existence and started to think that maybe Goku needed to be dealt with. Never went anywhere. Or how Goku prior to the tournament became the most hated man in the universe and looked at as evil by most of the populations. It never went anywhere. Or how Gohan was both made the leader of the U7 team and specifically said that he wanted to acchieve an ultimate from that nobody had ever seen before. It never went anywhere. Or how Freeza was hinted to have some kind of plan to overthrow the gods and possibly Zeno himself. It never went anywhere.
This is just poor writing. The only part of DBZ with even remotely the same degree of issues was the Boo saga.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.
Oh right, the "the angels might be up to something" aspect, how could I forget to mention that. Yeah that was one of the worst blue-ballers of them all.SingleFringe&Sparks wrote: Not to mention the ambiguity of the Grand Priest, and the implication of an ulterior motive, or the Angels not being worried about being judged by Zeno, or the U9 Angel smiling in relief that U9 was gone. All added up to nothing, a potential plot that could have made the arc a lot better than it just being fighting, and goodness. GT at least stuck with a plot-line and actually had conflict with none of the half-assed endings to the arcs Super gave us. In GT, they just killed Omega Shenron and Normal Shenron just said hes taking the balls away in result of the arc. There was no sudden "Oh well you guys proved you're good people, so never mind" forced in.
People also have the misconception that enjoying something means its good. For anime they're rarely simultaneous. Super is just flashy and people think flashy means good these days and dislike thinking that there is no real substance behind the flash, hence all these ridiculous theory videos trying to make Super sound better than what it presents just to fight that fact. A series needing endless theories on it does not make it deep either, it means people either can't fully grasp what they are shown, or that the series itself is so vague that it forces people who like it to give themselves a reason to once the flash is over. Part of that traffic is the only reason to people as I see it still hype up Super. They enjoy the mindless hype more than the product itself. GT never had this because it predated this culture, and that people at the time were much more objective then (from franchise fatigue) than they are now from nostalgia-addiction. GT also doesn't give you that much to theorize because things either made sense or it didn't. There was none of this vagueness Super gives. So narratively Super is just bad. It by most consensus is only praised for the animation as its the one thing people mention when they praise it. Solely. If GT had the fights Super does, I promise you, half of the criticism GT got would not have existed.Puaru wrote:I did enjoy Super an awful lot more than GT but I swear, Super had no sense of direction whatsoever. I think a lot of us are happy with Super only because it's not as boring and soulless as GT, but it never even comes close to being a worthy sequel to DBZ/the original manga.
The whole theory of the "Grand Priest using Zeno to free his children" or the "Grand Priest using Zeno to erase the universes to indirectly fulfill Zamasu's goal" or "The TOP is rigged like the MK tournaments" or the "Zamasu being inside one of the Zenos" were all fanbase plots I actually hoped would be the case, despite how absurd and ego-stroking or biased the self-appeal in most headcanon claims are. What we actually got was just nothing.Puaru wrote:Oh right, the "the angels might be up to something" aspect, how could I forget to mention that. Yeah that was one of the worst blue-ballers of them all.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.
Completely and objectively false.dnavenom wrote:A bit more time must past for us to evaluate DBS rightfully. We are still hyped from the last 2 episodes. Honestly before TOP I would say GT.
Story:
1. GT - a mix of DB and DBZ. Playing it safe an homage to Toriyama`s story. A real continuation of the Buu saga. A more solid structure. Space arc, android arc, demon arc, almost a copy of DBZ. Enjoyable none the less.
2. DBS - new story. A bit of a debacle in the Trunks arc with all the time travel theory, but enjoyable.
Powerscaling:
1.GT - solid
2.DBS - none Frieza (4 mounts training), Black (better knowledge of Goku`s body), Kefla (prodigy theory...), Kale (the Brolly rip-off) Jiren (he was at 100% probably 10 times, each time stronger)
New forms:
1.GT - unlocking the primal ozaru power and uniting it with that of a super saiyan to produce a SSJ4, seems like a good way to transform.
2.DBS - SSGSS, SSJB, UI, SSJR, USSJBVegeta, SSJBKaiokenGoku - too much forms, most of them acquired off screen or by some strange ritual. The only thing that felt like a real DB transformation was Trunk`es SSJRage and maybe UI, although it probably should have manifested in the Zamasu arc first.
ART:
GT - Solid character art, if we don`t count Vegeta`s hair and mustache . bad backgrounds, solid effects.
DBS - Almost all of the character art was bad, excluding TOP ofc and the last episodes of the main fights in the other arcs. Solid effects, nice backgrounds. Hate the smoke of the Ki blasts, makes them look like normal TNT explosions and not something special.
Character developement:
GT - we see all of the characters grown up, this really feels like a DBZ continuation.
DBS - Cell saga, pre Buu defeat character behavior. Goku is dummer and Vegeta is still arrogant. These are 40-50 year old men. Looks like they forgot what happened when Buu was defeated. Gohan became a weakling. Goten and Trunks didn`t grow an inch.
With all that said: GT > DBS 1-108, but after 109 DBS = GT. If Goku wasn`t turned into a child, GT would have smashed DBS into the ground, but that`s only my opinion
A story that generates lots of theories and speculation is objectively more interesting and better than one that doesn't. That's what keeps people invested into the story's lore and boosts it potential. The fact that Super does this and GT didn't is just more evidence that Super is superior to GT story wise. GT didn't do this because it did absolutely nothing to enrich the DB universe's lore, that's why GT killed Dragonball in Japan for the next 6 years. Super on the other hand opened up more story possibilities for the franchise with each arc, especially with the possible return of the missing 6 universes at the end, as well as the unexplored 4. That's why Super's ending hasn't broken the franchises momentum like GT did. Being vague is actually a good thing writing wise, because it doesn't treat the audience like idiots and spoon-feed all the info, letting the audience think for themselves and allow their imagination to run wild.SingleFringe&Sparks wrote:People also have the misconception that enjoying something means its good. For anime they're rarely simultaneous. Super is just flashy and people think flashy means good these days and dislike thinking that there is no real substance behind the flash, hence all these ridiculous theory videos trying to make Super sound better than what it presents just to fight that fact. A series needing endless theories on it does not make it deep either, it means people either can't fully grasp what they are shown, or that the series itself is so vague that it forces people who like it to give themselves a reason to once the flash is over. Part of that traffic is the only reason to people as I see it still hype up Super. They enjoy the mindless hype more than the product itself. GT never had this because it predated this culture, and that people at the time were much more objective then (from franchise fatigue) than they are now from nostalgia-addiction. GT also doesn't give you that much to theorize because things either made sense or it didn't. There was none of this vagueness Super gives. So narratively Super is just bad. It by most consensus is only praised for the animation as its the one thing people mention when they praise it. Solely. If GT had the fights Super does, I promise you, half of the criticism GT got would not have existed.Puaru wrote:I did enjoy Super an awful lot more than GT but I swear, Super had no sense of direction whatsoever. I think a lot of us are happy with Super only because it's not as boring and soulless as GT, but it never even comes close to being a worthy sequel to DBZ/the original manga.
The whole theory of the "Grand Priest using Zeno to free his children" or the "Grand Priest using Zeno to erase the universes to indirectly fulfill Zamasu's goal" or "The TOP is rigged like the MK tournaments" or the "Zamasu being inside one of the Zenos" were all fanbase plots I actually hoped would be the case, despite how absurd and ego-stroking or biased the self-appeal in most headcanon claims are. What we actually got was just nothing.Puaru wrote:Oh right, the "the angels might be up to something" aspect, how could I forget to mention that. Yeah that was one of the worst blue-ballers of them all.