Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Helios518]

A giant and powerful enough AOE could destroy Zamasu. I wouldn’t doubt if Geran could create an explosion strong enough to encompass Earth and Zamasu.

Nope.

Immortal beings can't be destroyed. Jiren is screwed if he fights him.

I've somehow forgot that Zamasu is immortal...

How is Geran screwed though? At best, he just stalemates Geran because even Geran using less than a hint of his power surpassed Infinite Zamasu meaning they can't hurt each other.

[Kenneth La Torre]

A giant and powerful enough AOE could destroy Zamasu. I wouldn’t doubt if Geran could create an explosion strong enough to encompass Earth and Zamasu.

Nope.

Immortal beings can't be destroyed. Jiren is screwed if he fights him since he can't erase things.

Jiren isnt screwed. Nothing infinite zamasu has would even remotely face jiren. He can just stand there and let zamasu try whatever he wants.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Jiren would barely even notice Zamasu's flea-like attacks. He could live out the rest of his life with some occasional mild discomfort.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, I've often thrown around the idea that one doesn't need to exactly be of equal or slightly lesser/greater strength than your opponent to have an even brawl with them, even if the difference seems large; proper reading of movement patterns and the quality of one's martial arts can make up the difference in power level.

That was the official explanation for why base Goku was able to fight on par with Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla at first, but I don't think it suffices for just magically handwaving every little apparent discrepancy in the show; especially the ones that are very clearly focused on power output or brute strength above all else. You'd have to be careful with how that reasoning is applied, otherwise it's just incongruent with the reality of the anime's production.

But on the other hand, the polar opposite clearly isn't working out for folks around here, as it simply leaves them feeling that there were retcons and/or that power scaling is sh*t and nothing else.

I think we also often fail to consider character disposition and emotional state; we see that emotions and the state of one's demeanour in any given moment can factor into the flow of a fight, such as letting one's guard down when one thinks he/she has won a fight being an easy way of taking them down or at least doing major damage.

Personally speaking, for the Tournament of Power at least, I think my approach works out better for the majority of fights, at least in the earlier moments. But then again, you and others are just as likely to disagree, and there's no way we can conclusively say the other side is wrong in terms of the present.

[JazzMazz]

So, I've often thrown around the idea that one doesn't need to exactly be of equal or slightly lesser/greater strength than your opponent to have an even brawl with them, even if the difference seems large; proper reading of movement patterns and the quality of one's martial arts can make up the difference in power level.

That was the official explanation for why base Goku was able to fight on par with Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla at first, but I don't think it suffices for just magically handwaving every little apparent discrepancy in the show; especially the ones that are very clearly focused on power output or brute strength above all else. You'd have to be careful with how that reasoning is applied, otherwise it's just incongruent with the reality of the anime's production.

Well, it is applicable to a lot of situations in the show.

For example, when SSG Goku fought Kale, she was able to keep up with him, however, it was shown multiple times throughout the fight that she was clearly outmatched by him in terms of raw power, due to none of her attacks being at all effective.

Same goes for things like Gohan and Piccolo's battle against the powered up universe 6 Nameks. Despite being vastly more powerful than when they'd previously encountered, Piccolo was still able to trade blows with them for a brief while, even though it was clear that he was no match for either of them, as demonstrated by his (lets just call it hellzone grenade) doing literally no damage at all.

I would say its the reason someone like 17 is able to consistently fight characters of a stronger calibre, since a lot of how these fights end up come down to the weaker person using more stamina to keep up, someone like 17 who has infinite stamina, should pretty much be able to fight indefinitely unless his completely over-powered in a single attack, like Toppo attempted to do in episode 125.

[Hugo Boss]

I think we also often fail to consider character disposition and emotional state; we see that emotions and the state of one's demeanour in any given moment can factor into the flow of a fight, such as letting one's guard down when one thinks he/she has won a fight being an easy way of taking them down or at least doing major damage.

I partly agree with Marlowe89, specially about being careful on using that reasoning in some particular situations. But I must admit it sounds the most interesting explanation so far and it gives a special charm to the franchise. Fights shouldn’t be just attributes clashing, as if we are playing Yu-Gi-Oh! or something like that. Though, some still look a bit off when the show doesn’t elaborate on how they go.

[ZombieVito]

Jiren isnt screwed. Nothing infinite zamasu has would even remotely face jiren. He can just stand there and let zamasu try whatever he wants.

Jiren isn't immortal or have infinite energy.

He would eventually get tired and die.

The way people overrate Jiren is simply hilarious. If 17 can hurt him then Infinite Zamasu can do way better.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Jiren isnt screwed. Nothing infinite zamasu has would even remotely face jiren. He can just stand there and let zamasu try whatever he wants.

Jiren isn't immortal or have infinite energy.

He would eventually get tired and die.

The way people overrate Jiren is simply hilarious. If 17 can hurt him then Infinite Zamasu can do way better.

You are the one overrating infinite zamasu. All he has is immortality. The dude can barely face worn out goku and vegeta.

[Whatever]

Yeah, don't ask me to find it now but one of the writers for the show on Twitter said that Roshi was powered up by whatever it was that was possessing him.

So normally he probably is weaker than Tien.

That was Toshio but some things to note:
1)Toshio did not write this episode
2)We see in the Top that Roshi is stronger,in episode 89 both Tien and Goku say thats Roshi's real power
3)He said its his own opinion and that he was not certain

Because GT remains (somewhat) consistent with its portrayal of a ridiculously strong base Goku. As in, base Goku actually beats the fuck out of characters that were weaker than SS3 Goku in the previous series, like the other Super Saiyans.

In Super, Goku can smack the fuck out of SS3 Gotenks in one moment and be forced to go Super Saiyan to fight Gohan and Kuririn in the next one.

I mean in GT we had base Goku not being able to lift a building and needing to go SSJ4 to lift it,that example does not ruin a strong base Goku despite it being weird.
Both GT and Super had more examples of Goku being really strong in base than they had him not being.
Not SSJG strong but still.

Literally ever character in the ToP, Roshi and the humans included, is comparable to BoG SSG Goku if we say base Goku is this strong. Wow, Beerus was so excited to fight a SSG when he could have fought literally everyone else after training them for a few hours?

Man why Freeza and everybody else made such a big deal of SSJ(and Freeza's power) when it all took Vegeta and Piccolo is 3 years of training to surpass Namek ssj Goku?
Or a scientist making normal teenagers strong enough to 1 shot all of them.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Technically speaking, android 17 was mostlikely stronger than ssg, even before goku went ssg for the first time.

[HeroR]

Yeah, don't ask me to find it now but one of the writers for the show on Twitter said that Roshi was powered up by whatever it was that was possessing him.

So normally he probably is weaker than Tien.

That was Toshio but some things to note:
1)Toshio did not write this episode
2)We see in the Top that Roshi is stronger,in episode 89 both Tien and Goku say thats Roshi's real power
3)He said its his own opinion and that he was not certain

Because GT remains (somewhat) consistent with its portrayal of a ridiculously strong base Goku. As in, base Goku actually beats the fuck out of characters that were weaker than SS3 Goku in the previous series, like the other Super Saiyans.

In Super, Goku can smack the fuck out of SS3 Gotenks in one moment and be forced to go Super Saiyan to fight Gohan and Kuririn in the next one.

I mean in GT we had base Goku not being able to lift a building and needing to go SSJ4 to lift it,that example does not ruin a strong base Goku despite it being weird.
Both GT and Super had more examples of Goku being really strong in base than they had him not being.
Not SSJG strong but still.

Literally ever character in the ToP, Roshi and the humans included, is comparable to BoG SSG Goku if we say base Goku is this strong. Wow, Beerus was so excited to fight a SSG when he could have fought literally everyone else after training them for a few hours?

Man why Freeza and everybody else made such a big deal of SSJ(and Freeza's power) when it all took Vegeta and Piccolo is 3 years of training to surpass Namek ssj Goku?
Or a scientist making normal teenagers strong enough to 1 shot all of them.

That and Goku wasn’t force to used Super Saiyan against Gohan and Krillin. Goku and Gohan were play fighting in 95 and Goku went Super Saiyan to stay in the ring out rule. Unless you’re going to say Krillin is stronger than Fit Buu since Goku didn’t go Super Saiyan against him. Krillin is also stronger than Piccolo who didn’t make Goku go Super Saiyan even with a charge energy attack.

You have to look at context.

[Rally 07]

Technically speaking, android 17 was mostlikely stronger than ssg, even before goku went ssg for the first time.

Oh yeah, Artificial Human No.17 is definitely stronger than Super Saiyan God, and he should certainly not be considered as strong as the ritual Super Saiyan God from the Battle of Gods story arc. Because that's a crazy lowball.

[ZombieVito]

You are the one overrating infinite zamasu. All he has is immortality. The dude can barely face worn out goku and vegeta.

Barely? What are you talking about? He beat them without issue and the only reason they weren't killed is because of plot armor.

All Zamasu has to do is attack from all directions 24/7 and Jiren will eventually die since he will not have a safe place to rest. Not even time travelling to the present can save you since Zamasu will merged with it as well in due time and continue to attack.

People are seriously underestimating Infinite Zamasu here. The thing is the most broken antagonist in the entirety of Dragon Ball.

[Doctor.]

Yeah, don't ask me to find it now but one of the writers for the show on Twitter said that Roshi was powered up by whatever it was that was possessing him.

So normally he probably is weaker than Tien.

That was Toshio but some things to note:
1)Toshio did not write this episode
2)We see in the Top that Roshi is stronger,in episode 89 both Tien and Goku say thats Roshi's real power
3)He said its his own opinion and that he was not certain

Because GT remains (somewhat) consistent with its portrayal of a ridiculously strong base Goku. As in, base Goku actually beats the fuck out of characters that were weaker than SS3 Goku in the previous series, like the other Super Saiyans.

In Super, Goku can smack the fuck out of SS3 Gotenks in one moment and be forced to go Super Saiyan to fight Gohan and Kuririn in the next one.

I mean in GT we had base Goku not being able to lift a building and needing to go SSJ4 to lift it,that example does not ruin a strong base Goku despite it being weird.
Both GT and Super had more examples of Goku being really strong in base than they had him not being.
Not SSJG strong but still.

Literally ever character in the ToP, Roshi and the humans included, is comparable to BoG SSG Goku if we say base Goku is this strong. Wow, Beerus was so excited to fight a SSG when he could have fought literally everyone else after training them for a few hours?

Man why Freeza and everybody else made such a big deal of SSJ(and Freeza's power) when it all took Vegeta and Piccolo is 3 years of training to surpass Namek ssj Goku?
Or a scientist making normal teenagers strong enough to 1 shot all of them.

That and Goku wasn’t force to used Super Saiyan against Gohan and Krillin. Goku and Gohan were play fighting in 95 and Goku went Super Saiyan to stay in the ring out rule. Unless you’re going to say Krillin is stronger than Fit Buu since Goku didn’t go Super Saiyan against him. Krillin is also stronger than Piccolo who didn’t make Goku go Super Saiyan even with a charge energy attack.

You have to look at context.

The context is that Kuririn overpowered base Goku and forced him to go Super Saiyan. Goku wouldn't budge if he was millions of times stronger as you people claim.

[namekiansaiyan]

All these things contradict each other and that is why common sense needs to used sometimes when working out a character's strength.

[Doctor.]

All these things contradict each other and that is why common sense needs to used sometimes when working out a character's strength.

And common sense dictates that Goku doesn't have this ridiculous strong base anymore considering how rarely he actually shows anything that proves it and the amount of evidence that actually goes against it.

[Helios518]

You are the one overrating infinite zamasu. All he has is immortality. The dude can barely face worn out goku and vegeta.

Barely? What are you talking about? He beat them without issue and the only reason they weren't killed is because of plot armor.

All Zamasu has to do is attack from all directions 24/7 and Jiren will eventually die since he will not have a safe place to rest. Not even time travelling to the present can save you since Zamasu will merged with it as well in due time and continue to attack.

People are seriously underestimating Infinite Zamasu here. The thing is the most broken antagonist in the entirety of Dragon Ball.

Geran isn’t going to be tired if he could passively tank the attacks with less than a hint of his power. It would be like if I had a fly constantly ramming against my body, and then you say that the fly will eventually kill me except, it wouldn’t because the fly’s force is too minuscule to ever do anything to me even when I’m old and sleeping.

Also we’re not underestimating Zamasu, you’re just underestimating Geran. It’s like you’re saying I’m underestimating Kid Boo, because Golden Freeza is vastly stronger than him.

[Cetra]

You are the one overrating infinite zamasu. All he has is immortality. The dude can barely face worn out goku and vegeta.

Goku, Vegeta and Trunks' Final Galick Kamehameha had 0 effect so I don't know how you could come to this conclusion.

Also we’re not underestimating Zamasu, you’re just underestimating Geran. It’s like you’re saying I’m underestimating Kid Boo, because Golden Freeza is vastly stronger than him.

We at least have somewhat of an "understanding" of what Jiren's power is like. We don't know that for Zamasu. For what its worth this guy might be able to absorb/assimilate or flat out destroy all life because of what he is. This guy had the ability of becoming the universe just because he was what he was and only needed to let go of his previous form to do so. No one has ever done such a thing before. Is it because he is a Kaioshin and thus is connected to the fabric of the universe? His entire being is not really comparable to Jiren. The only thing we have ever seen from another villain that was somewhat similiar was Super Yi Xing Long spreading his negative energy through the universe. Those are things that make no actual sense. The only thing I give Jiren that also makes no sense is his resilience against Hit's abilities but that does not really matter when it comes to fighting an entity that "just for the sake of it" can make everything one with him.

[Myzt0gun]

The Dragon Ball Super Movie is months away,
Just How Powerful do you think is the New Characters are and Villains

The Most recent villains were
Frieza = or < SSB Goku (not mastered SSB)
Frost < Base Goku
Hit = SSG Goku to SSBKK Goku
Zamasu (Kai) = or < SSJ2 Goku
Merged Zamasu < SSB Vegito (only lost cause of time limit and Immortality)
Bergamo (No Absorption) = Base Goku
Bergamo (Giant) = possibly SSJ3 Goku
Anizara > or = SSBKK Goku
Toppo = SSB or SSG Goku
Jiren = Goku (Mastered UI)

I'm Guessing that the Villain will atleast be stronger than SSBKK Goku
but its about their origin so is it possible that Goku will time travel?

[namekiansaiyan]

The Dragon Ball Super Movie is months away,
Just How Powerful do you think is the New Characters are and Villains

The Most recent villains were
Frieza = or < SSB Goku (not mastered SSB)
Frost < Base Goku
Hit = SSG Goku to SSBKK Goku
Zamasu (Kai) = or < SSJ2 Goku
Merged Zamasu < SSB Vegito (only lost cause of time limit and Immortality)
Bergamo (No Absorption) = Base Goku
Bergamo (Giant) = possibly SSJ3 Goku
Anizara > or = SSBKK Goku
Toppo = SSB or SSG Goku
Jiren = Goku (Mastered UI)

I'm Guessing that the Villain will atleast be stronger than SSBKK Goku
but its about their origin so is it possible that Goku will time travel?

I think Jiren will be stronger than any new villain due to Goku not being able to activate Ultra Instinct.