Retcons: What are they?

[ABED]

I'm not sure what exactly got me thinking about this today, but a while back a fellow member said that retcons include reveals. Retcons just means retroactive continuity, so anything that deals with changing the past, including information not previously known falls under the umbrella of a retcon. I can see where they are coming from, but I think there's a fundamental difference between a reveal and what is generally considered a retcon. A reveal is about giving the audience information they didn't know. A retcon is about usurping previously established information. It's like the writer is saying, "Oh, didn't you know it was always this way?"

Reveal - Muten Roshi's master died defeating Piccolo.
Retcon - Cyborgs 19 and 20 become 17 and 18.

[Cure Dragon 255]

God, I dont know how many of these threads we have but they are needed and that's just TRAGIC.

[sintzu]

A Reveal is a new plot point that gives you more information about something, like Goku's origins.

A Retcon is something that completely goes against previously established plot points or logic, like 17 being on Blue's level for just playing in the forest.

[KBABZ]

For me there's a big difference between a Retcon and a Twist. A Twist is the classic up-ending of information we already knew, or added context, etc, for shock value and/or story progression. A retcon is when it's done more as a fix for something, and tend to be more out-of-universe in origin.

[ABED]

God, I dont know how many of these threads we have but they are needed and that's just TRAGIC.

My next thread will be where I explain the concept "canon".

A Twist is the classic up-ending of information we already knew, or added context, etc

Would it be more appropriate to say it's the up ending of information we THOUGHT we already knew?

[VegettoEX]

like 17 being on Blue's level for just playing in the forest.

"Things I do not personally like" should not and do not fall under the category of "retcons". There is nothing about that situation that goes against previously-explained information.

An actual retcon would be something like the destruction of Planet Vegeta. On the first level, we have Raditz explaining it was destroyed by a meteor collision. On the second level, we have filler material explaining its destruction by its own God. These explanations are later contradicted and explained as Freeza being the responsible party. It doesn't matter — and in fact only makes it more interesting — that Toriyama decides to write his original explanation as an in-universe cover-up. It's still specific, concrete information that in and of itself divorced from anything else that is later changed.

Things like "Phoenix is actually Jean well actually not they're not the same person and one was alive the whole time and maybe one's a clone actually but also one truly was dead and nevermind they're still alive" is every bit as much a true retcon as "Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta"; one's just written a bit more seamlessly by a single author.

"Guy got stronger?!?!?!?" isn't a retcon.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

A good example of a retcon that immediately comes to mind is Majin Buu's origins.

If I recall correctly, in the original manga or guidebooks, Bibidi was said to have created Buu. However, in an interview years later, Toriyama said that Majin Buu was actually a being from time immemorial that Bibidi found and made use of.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I'd say that the potara fusion only lasting an hour for non-Kaioshin is a retcon.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I'd say that the potara fusion only lasting an hour for non-Kaioshin is a retcon.

That's another one that immediately comes to mind, though in this case it was to service the story at hand.

The example I posted above your comment is the kind that seems to serve no real purpose beyond changing things up for the sake of it, as it doesn't impact the story in any significant way as far as we know.

[VegettoEX]

A good example of a retcon that immediately comes to mind is Majin Buu's origins.

If I recall correctly, in the original manga or guidebooks, Bibidi was said to have created Buu. However, in an interview years later, Toriyama said that Majin Buu was actually a being from time immemorial that Bibidi found and made use of.

I'd say that the potara fusion only lasting an hour for non-Kaioshin is a retcon.

Yes, these are both two great examples. One is an external-to-the-source-material (interview) divulging of new/contradictory information, while the other is an in-the-(new)-source-material divulging of new/contradictory information. In each case, they also address the contradiction, as well: in the interview, Toriyama explicitly states that the manga had a different story, while for the Potara they explain that what they thought was true was never actually the case.

[Whatever]

Retcon usually is new information that overrides previous information that was presented to us and changes a past event to serve the current plot need.
For example,while Goku being an alien does not contradict anything so it would not count as a retcon since it does not contradict anything despite not being planned.
While the concept of the Zenkai boosts is a retcon since Goku never got them back in OG DB yet Toriyama's story pretended it did by having Krillin make the realisation that Goku did get stronger by getting his butt kicked.

[ABED]

Retcon usually is new information that overrides previous information that was presented to us and changes a past event to serve the current plot need.
For example,while Goku being an alien does not contradict anything so it would not count as a retcon since it does not contradict anything despite not being planned.
While the concept of the Zenkai boosts is a retcon since Goku never got them back in OG DB yet Toriyama's story pretended it did by having Krillin make the realisation that Goku did get stronger by getting his butt kicked.

Zenkais didn't contradict any previously known information. It just wasn't brought up. And I think Kuririn's dialog is more along the lines of Goku got stronger after every major battle, which isn't technically untrue.

Dr. Gero having a son Goku killed, IIRC, doesn't contradict any statements made, but it does feel like a retcon because why wouldn't Dr. Gero/20 bring that up when he confronts Goku? It's supposedly this major motivation, yet he never brings it up.

Another big retcon I would argue is SSJ3. If Goku had it under his belt that whole time, his actions make no sense. What does he get out of fighting Vegeta? Why would he lie?

[ZeroNeonix]

Dragon Ball has always had retcons. Originally, if someone died who you wanted to revive, you had to preserve their bodies. Later, that was dropped completely. The dragon was able to revive even those who were vaporized into space dust. But then RoF comes along and says that ge can restore Frieza's, but he'd be in the same state he was in when he died (in a million pieces). Imagine if that were true in the rest of the series. Goku died via Special Beam Canon through the chest. When he was wished back, by RoF logic, he should have been resurrected with a hole in his chest. In my headcanon, Shenron was just being a dick to the Frieza Force and was making up stuff just to make it harder on them.

Originally, Goku's tail would grow back after being cut off, but Toriyama got tired of drawing it, so it disappeared without explanation and never grew back. The same happened with Gohan. He has a tail, it gets cut off twice (not counting Tree of Might), then we never see it again.

Cell in the manga was supposed to have a weakpoint, which when destroyed would prevent him from regenerating. Basically Piccolo's head weakness, except that Cell could move his weak point. This was retconned when he was able to regenerate from a single cell. The anime actually fixed that plot hole by never claiming Cell had a weak point. I think that's the only case of the anime actually fixing a problem with the manga.

Then there are the animeisms. The anime often makes stuff up, such as the origin of the Dragon Balls, how Planet Vegeta was destroyed, Vegeta's coloration, Heaven and Hell, only for Toriyama to contradict that stuff later.

[ABED]

All true with the exception of one. In the episode where Muten Roshi explains the origin of the DB's he says upfront that it is only a legend he heard.

I didn't even think of Vegeta's coloration. Good call.

[ZeroNeonix]

Another big retcon I would argue is SSJ3. If Goku had it under his belt that whole time, his actions make no sense. What does he get out of fighting Vegeta? Why would he lie?

It was explained that Super Saiyan 3 has a severe energy drain. It's highly inefficient, which is probably why he skips from SS2 to SSG during the ToP. Also, when revived temporarily like Goku was, expending a lot of energy shortens the temporary life span. When he showed off to Goten and Trunks, Baba says to him that that little stunt took what little time away that he had left. This is brought up again during the ToP, when Frieza assures Goku that his Golden Form will not cause him to lose all his energy any more. Super Saiyan 3 also seems to shorten the fusion time limits as well. So the reason Goku didn't use SS3 against Vegeta was because he didn't want to use up all that energy and his limited time.

[Whatever]

Retcon usually is new information that overrides previous information that was presented to us and changes a past event to serve the current plot need.
For example,while Goku being an alien does not contradict anything so it would not count as a retcon since it does not contradict anything despite not being planned.
While the concept of the Zenkai boosts is a retcon since Goku never got them back in OG DB yet Toriyama's story pretended it did by having Krillin make the realisation that Goku did get stronger by getting his butt kicked.

Zenkais didn't contradict any previously known information. It just wasn't brought up. And I think Kuririn's dialog is more along the lines of Goku got stronger after every major battle, which isn't technically untrue.

Dr. Gero having a son Goku killed, IIRC, doesn't contradict any statements made, but it does feel like a retcon because why wouldn't Dr. Gero/20 bring that up when he confronts Goku? It's supposedly this major motivation, yet he never brings it up.

Another big retcon I would argue is SSJ3. If Goku had it under his belt that whole time, his actions make no sense. What does he get out of fighting Vegeta? Why would he lie?

Think of all the times Goku got nearly killed before the Saiyan saga,King Piccolo destroyed him and stopped his heart,yet no zenkai boost,in their rematch broke his 2 legs and 1 hand same thing,same for when PiccoloJr broke his hand and legs and put a hole on his chest.
Then after Goku gets his big Zenkai to fight Freeza for some reason the Zenkais stop happening for whatever reason outside of that one time in the Cell games where Cell gets a Zenkai from selfdestructing despite Vegeta telling us you cannot get one from self-injury.
We even have confirmation from Super Buu(Gotenks and Piccolo absorbed)that Gohan did not get stronger when Dende healed him so no zenkais for Gohan either.

As for DrGero if i recall correctly Toriyama's interview did not state that Goku got DrGero's son killed but that DrGero's son was shotted.

SSJ3 no matter what way you see it is a retcon,the narrative even changes Goku's motivations from wanting to stop Buu to wanting the next generation to take over to justify the existance of the form.

It was explained that Super Saiyan 3 has a severe energy drain. It's highly inefficient, which is probably why he skips from SS2 to SSG during the ToP. Also, when revived temporarily like Goku was, expending a lot of energy shortens the temporary life span. When he showed off to Goten and Trunks, Baba says to him that that little stunt took what little time away that he had left. This is brought up again during the ToP, when Frieza assures Goku that his Golden Form will not cause him to lose all his energy any more. Super Saiyan 3 also seems to shorten the fusion time limits as well. So the reason Goku didn't use SS3 against Vegeta was because he didn't want to use up all that energy and his limited time.

Thats anime only.
Also ssj3 could 1 shot Vegeta so he would not need to use all of his time to beat him.

[ABED]

That would be a nice explanation if it were explicit, but it's never stated. And as I recall, doesn't Goku say to some effect that he was going to fight Vegeta all out from the jump? Lastly, if Goku goes SSJ3 from the start, Vegeta would be no problem and that solves the issue of Buu's resurrection.

There's merit to your argument, though.

Think of all the times Goku got nearly killed before the Saiyan saga,King Piccolo destroyed him and stopped his heart,yet no zenkai boost,in their rematch broke his 2 legs and 1 hand same thing,same for when PiccoloJr broke his hand and legs and put a hole on his chest.

How do we know there wasn't one?

I'll put it in the maybe pile. To my mind, retcons are less ambiguous. It's more along the lines of "remember in That 70s Show when Donna had a sister?"

Gohan did not get stronger when Dende healed him so no zenkais for Gohan either

I honestly don't recall that moment.

[ZeroNeonix]

SSJ3 no matter what way you see it is a retcon,the narrative even changes Goku's motivations from wanting to stop Buu to wanting the next generation to take over to justify the existance of the form.

That would be a nice explanation if it were explicit, but it's never stated. And as I recall, doesn't Goku say to some effect that he was going to fight Vegeta all out from the jump? Lastly, if Goku goes SSJ3 from the start, Vegeta would be no problem and that solves the issue of Buu's resurrection.

There's merit to your argument, though.

During his fight with Vegeta, Goku wasn't giving Vegeta his full attention. Vegeta ended up stopping the fight because Goku wouldn't stop nagging him about Buu. Could Goku have beaten Vegeta quickly in Super Saiyan 3? Maybe. I think it's clear Goku was trying to turn Vegeta around, though.

As for changing from wanting to defeat Buu himself to wanting his kids to do it, it seems like he was pulling another Cell Games strategy. He realized that he could defeat Buu himself, as he's using Buu as a punching bag in SS3, but he didn't want his kids to get too complacent. He couldn't always be there to protect them. So he showed off his power to Buu and promised that someone stronger would come along. This gets Buu all excited, and he even agrees to postpone destroying everything until that mysterious strong person (Gotenks) appeared. I think Goku could also sense the innocence in that Buu (I mean, jeez, how could one NOT know that killing is bad? lol) and hoped that he could be turned around. After all, Goku was the one who planted the idea in his head that he didn't have to let Babidi order him around. Both plans very nearly worked. Gotenks could have destroyed Buu if he didn't play around with him so much and allow himself to be absorbed. And Buu did turn to the good side, but then he split into two halves and his evil side won over.

[Forte224]

I didn't realize it needed explaining honestly, but yeah:

Reveal=New information
Retcon=New information that contradicts, ignores, or adjusts previously established information

To put it as simply as possible. The thing about the potara fusion only lasting an hour in Super, while I definitely agree it's a retcon, couldn't the argument be made that it isn't, since even way back in Z, Goku and Vegeta never really understood why the fusion ended? Of course, the focus is specifically on the fact that once their barrier went down it ended and maybe had to do with the air Boo's body, but it still never gets a full explanation as to why it happened. Goku assumes it's the air in Boo's body, but no one ever confirms that.

[ZeroNeonix]

I didn't realize it needed explaining honestly, but yeah:

Reveal=New information
Retcon=New information that contradicts, ignores, or adjusts previously established information

To put it as simply as possible. The thing about the potara fusion only lasting an hour in Super, while I definitely agree it's a retcon, couldn't the argument be made that it isn't, since even way back in Z, Goku and Vegeta never really understood why the fusion ended? Of course, the focus is specifically on the fact that once their barrier went down it ended and maybe had to do with the air Boo's body, but it still never gets a full explanation as to why it happened. Goku assumes it's the air in Boo's body, but no one ever confirms that.

I personally assumed that it was Buu's body trying to digest Vegito, resulting in their fusion being broken down to its simpler parts (Goku and Vegeta). But yeah, it was left open to interpretation. I still have a few problems with it, though:

• 1. The Elder Kai didn't know how the Potara Rings worked on mortals. You'd think that a kai with as much experience as he would know how his Potara Rings work.
  
  2. The change in Super wasn't necessary. If the concern was that they didn't want Vegito to be permanent, they could have just used either the Earth or Namekian Dragon Balls to defuse later.
  
  3. Putting a time limit on Potara Fusion makes it virtually identical to Metamoran Fusion, even down to the detail of powerful transformations shortening its time limit. It's essentially the same thing, except without a dance to activate it.